AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Retired M-Z > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2011-11-13, 03:56   Link #25601
unsuspectingvisitor
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
I mix things up. I though there's only 17 human but i was wrong . Erika was the 18th human in the island. i forgot that red.
but there's a red truth like even if you do join us... there are 17 people. so that means one of the 18 human died possibly Kinzo. ah my bad now i think only kanon having a body was impossible.
unsuspectingvisitor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-13, 07:37   Link #25602
Kealym
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Well, Erika DID exist; it's just a matter of whether or not she landed on an island. That's a magnitude different from creating a new flesh and blood person.

That's really not the slightest bit comparable, because whether or not Kanon has a body or not radically effects how you can answer the mysteries in the tale, and whether he DOES or DOESN'T is literally a gamechanger.
But Erika's presence also changes how things can be solved, and involves a pretty large suspension of disbelief to even consider, right? It's still a matter of the author taking a highly unlikely instance, and writing it in, easy-peasy.

Also, Kanon having a body or not doesn't change any of the solutions in a terribly meaningful way, at all, until the Logic Error. Kanon's body is just a really really egregiously placed hot tub, and this is one of the points we're to take away from 'End'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
It has to be one of the most ambiguous things he's EVER said.
Indeed. I wonder how fully he thinks out the implications of things he says in interviews. XD

Quote:
Originally Posted by unsuspectingvisitor View Post
I mix things up. I though there's only 17 human but i was wrong . Erika was the 18th human in the island. i forgot that red.
but there's a red truth like even if you do join us... there are 17 people. so that means one of the 18 human died possibly Kinzo. ah my bad now i think only kanon having a body was impossible.
That final 18/17 red truth is wonky, regardless, and I think most people resolve it with either "those red truths referred to different realities, even though it sounded like they were talking about the same one".
Kealym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-13, 10:54   Link #25603
haguruma
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 33
Send a message via ICQ to haguruma Send a message via MSN to haguruma
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
There is no 19th person.

Oops. Arbitrary bullshit.
Well actually it is 18人以上の人間は存在しない therefore of course 18 and 19人目の人間は存在しない...the trick is that those HUMANS do not exist, it doesn't hinder the illusion of those people to exist. In the fictions where fantasy and reality can coexist a human is worth as much as a non-human...it's only important when it comes to their actuall power of influence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Indeed. I wonder how fully he thinks out the implications of things he says in interviews. XD
I think to him they are like really good hints. But that's like laughing about a persons inability to solve a question when you looked it up in a solution booklet yourself. The problem is, he seems to have really big problems to think outsode of his own position.

Quote:
That final 18/17 red truth is wonky, regardless, and I think most people resolve it with either "those red truths referred to different realities, even though it sounded like they were talking about the same one".
Actually it's not really that wrong no matter how you consider it. In case that Erika really did wash ashore at Rokkenjima she would have been the 18th human body to exist on Rokkenjima during those days (at least Kinz˘s body seems to have existed), so in a way she is the 18th human...but still even if they included her in the mix, when they revealed the true life, death and humanity status of all involved she would still only be the 17th living human if she were alive.
haguruma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-13, 13:51   Link #25604
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
Well actually it is 18人以上の人間は存在しない therefore of course 18 and 19人目の人間は存在しない...the trick is that those HUMANS do not exist, it doesn't hinder the illusion of those people to exist. In the fictions where fantasy and reality can coexist a human is worth as much as a non-human...it's only important when it comes to their actuall power of influence.
Then Kanon is only an illusion of a person. What the hell is the difference?

Quote:
But Erika's presence also changes how things can be solved, and involves a pretty large suspension of disbelief to even consider, right? It's still a matter of the author taking a highly unlikely instance, and writing it in, easy-peasy.
Improbable does not mean impossible. Kanon's existence, however, is technically impossible.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-13, 17:38   Link #25605
haguruma
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 33
Send a message via ICQ to haguruma Send a message via MSN to haguruma
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Then Kanon is only an illusion of a person. What the hell is the difference?
The point is that his presence and wether or not he appears to have a body is not really arbitrary. We have witnessed characters appearing to exist on the island since EP2 when they never had any real manifestation outside of the fantasy at all.

つまり、今、この客間にいる人数が、在島者全ての人数、ってことになるわね。
In other words, the number of people in this parlor now is equal to the total number of people on this island.

This is again a play on how we seem to perceive things and is nothing different from Beatrice, Ronove, goats or stake-girls appearing on the island. We think that Kanon is among those characters because we think that we witnessed his presence there...but not we are the objective force here, if it's anything it's Erika and she never said who was in the parlour or how many people were there. We saw at least 6 characters in Jessica's room during EP2, does that mean that there were actually 6 people in there at that time?

Of course it's a trick, but it is a trick that has been foreshadowed since the beginning of the series. We are lead to believe that there are more people than there actually are, but as long as we stand by our theory that Kanon is merely an illusion that somebody wants us to see then the number of people in the parlour is 17 including Erika.
haguruma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-13, 19:12   Link #25606
Kylon99
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
Was there anything Kanon did or say that could have uniquely identified his existence in the parlor? Basically, how does the unreliable narrator work with the detective in the room? In ep 5 there were "dead" bodies in the cousins room that erika never got to see either.

Could Kanon have just been saying things other people would have taken Shannon to have said?
Kylon99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-13, 19:19   Link #25607
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
The point is that his presence and wether or not he appears to have a body is not really arbitrary. We have witnessed characters appearing to exist on the island since EP2 when they never had any real manifestation outside of the fantasy at all.
Yea, but they weren't witnessed by someone with a valid viewpoint, like Battler or Erika, when the game was still in play.

Quote:
This is again a play on how we seem to perceive things and is nothing different from Beatrice, Ronove, goats or stake-girls appearing on the island. We think that Kanon is among those characters because we think that we witnessed his presence there...but not we are the objective force here, if it's anything it's Erika and she never said who was in the parlour or how many people were there. We saw at least 6 characters in Jessica's room during EP2, does that mean that there were actually 6 people in there at that time?
You're seriously not understanding my complaint, I don't think. This has already been discussed before, and your response doesn't really touch the main issue. The existences of Ronove, the stakes, etcetera. are completely irrelevant because Kanon doesn't play by the same rules as they do.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-15, 10:04   Link #25608
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I think to him they are like really good hints. But that's like laughing about a persons inability to solve a question when you looked it up in a solution booklet yourself. The problem is, he seems to have really big problems to think outsode of his own position.
Yeah, I get the sense he grossly overestimates the ability of his audience to think like he does. Not in a "we can't think on his level" way, but more "we aren't from Mars so we don't understand the mind of a Martian" way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
You're seriously not understanding my complaint, I don't think. This has already been discussed before, and your response doesn't really touch the main issue. The existences of Ronove, the stakes, etcetera. are completely irrelevant because Kanon doesn't play by the same rules as they do.
I'm not sure I really see your contention here either, honestly.

Okay, so it doesn't seem possible that Kanon should ever have a body, we get that, we understand that. And based on what we know of End, he probably shouldn't have one there either per the red text. Still, isn't it possible to imagine a forgery in which Kanon and Shannon have distinct bodies and their identity as Beatrice/Yasu does not exist? Why shouldn't it be possible? It may be a "fundamental misunderstanding," but that doesn't matter to a forger because a forger is not the original author. You might as well say the existence of Virgilia is not possible in fantasy scenes because the original author never included her. Possibly true, but entirely irrelevant, as authors can fabricate any fantasy characters they want.

Yet the parlor scene stands out as something Erika really should have picked up on and there is absolutely no solution that isn't ridiculous:
  • Kanon was hiding behind Gohda. Erika somehow doesn't care about this even though she'd presumably know she didn't specifically see Kanon.
  • Kanon wasn't there because unreliable narrator Battler. But Meta-Erika was observing that scene replay, and she didn't comment on that she's not seeing what she saw when she went through it? And if the scene was narrated by Battler both times, how does that square with Erika's observational powers?
  • Kanon was there because he had a body. Except this seems to contradict red text and also not make sense because Kanon's not supposed to have a body. There's no resolution to this, so even attempting to figure it out is essentially futile.
  • Ryukishi straight-up forgot that Erika should have been objectively observing everything that happened in the parlor scene even though Battler was narrating it. While this is the tidiest solution, it also makes him incompetent.
None of these is a particularly satisfying resolution to the problem, but if you reject all of them... what do you do?
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-15, 10:18   Link #25609
Kealym
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
[*]Kanon was there because he had a body. Except this seems to contradict red text and also not make sense because Kanon's not supposed to have a body. There's no resolution to this, so even attempting to figure it out is essentially futile.
Ah, I must have overlooked something - which red does it contradict?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
[*]Ryukishi straight-up forgot that Erika should have been objectively observing everything that happened in the parlor scene even though Battler was narrating it. While this is the tidiest solution, it also makes him incompetent.[/list]
Honestly not opposed to this. Similar to the door in the boiler room that may have randomly vanished after Turn?
Kealym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-15, 12:28   Link #25610
Wanderer
Goat
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
About Erika's final statements in Dawn,

Hi, pleased to meet you! I am Furudo Erika, the detective!! I may be an uninvited guest, but please, welcome me!!
I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima!!

[......Sorry, but...] Even if you do join us-
There are 17 people.


of course there's the discrepancy between the numbers, but what's the deal with Erika introducing herself here? Her lines really feel like she's setting herself up for the 17-people line. She knew of or suspected ShKanon but refused to acknowledge it. And maybe she even knew in End but wanted to dismiss it so badly that she contrived a Natsuhi culprit scenario.

Does this not fit with her super-smart-yet-anti-fantasy nature?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Honestly not opposed to this. Similar to the door in the boiler room that may have randomly vanished after Turn?
I hate this door being an issue. If it was unlocked or not lockable the adults would have noticed and not reported a closed room. Common sense.

RK07 went out of his way to set up the situation with Kanon having a body. It was very very deliberate. There is some kind of logic to what he did, and if there's a failure on RK07's part here it's his overestimation of his readers understanding him (in the Martian kind of way).
Wanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-15, 13:25   Link #25611
battle22
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
Age: 22
um how can erika say I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima!!???
there's 17 people including her and she say's that she's 18 person with red? HOW?
unless red is a lie . (like everything in this novel)
battle22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-15, 13:46   Link #25612
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by battle22 View Post
um how can erika say I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima!!???
there's 17 people including her and she say's that she's 18 person with red? HOW?
unless red is a lie . (like everything in this novel)
I am the golden witch Beatrice

You still deny that Beatrice is a witch even though she said that right? Same premise. Erika is the 18th person in name. It's what she knows herself as.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-15, 13:46   Link #25613
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I hate this door being an issue. If it was unlocked or not lockable the adults would have noticed and not reported a closed room. Common sense.
Again though, it takes not even a full sentence to handle this "issue," just a clause: "blah blah unlocked the basement, and someone had even wedged an iron bar in the courtyard doors." That may seem like a silly thing to harp on, but it's also a silly thing to ignore, especially since the ep1 scene involving Kanon insinuated that this was an escape route the killer knew about and liked to take. It's not some pedantic "in one sentence while describing the place Battler mentions it has a door to the courtyard" thing, it's "the person who 'killed' Kanon was believed to have escaped through that very door in ep1." Thus, it can easily be assumed to be a relevant door and its apparent non-existence in ep3 becomes suspect.

It's like the back door to the kitchen from ep2, if Ryukishi had forgotten it existed in ep4 (he didn't, in that case, and was quite explicit about it).
Quote:
RK07 went out of his way to set up the situation with Kanon having a body. It was very very deliberate. There is some kind of logic to what he did, and if there's a failure on RK07's part here it's his overestimation of his readers understanding him (in the Martian kind of way).
Well I'd agree with you that there ought to be some kind of logic to such an anomalous scene, but it's remarkably difficult to discern what that logic might be. We know how Shkanon logic at least appears to work for RK07, and this scene appears to violate it. We can try to explain that violation away, but something crops up that invalidates our line of reasoning; for example, we can say Battler was unreliable and thus could see Kanon even if he wasn't there, but then we run up on the problem that Erika isn't supposed to fail to observe everything perfectly and she ought to have thus observed that no such person was ever in the parlor. Likewise, we could say Kanon does have a body and End is an improperly-formed forgery, but then we run up against the red text that says that person counts are as they should be (and if Kanon has a physical body, he's a "human" in addition to being a person, and that should change but doesn't).

So what the actual logic is winds up even muddier than everything else. There must have been a purpose to the scene and an explanation (unless he made a mistake, which is possible but seemingly unlikely for such a critical scene), but none of the explanations I've seen actually work well.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-15, 14:16   Link #25614
Cao Ni Ma
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
I think this was already mentioned but I'll go ahead and say how I feel about EP6 in regards these reds. Shannon and Kanon being the same person was in a super position. It could really go both ways as you can create a scenario given the reds that fits both cases. In my view, the red forces the story to take a certain direction, destroying any blue that tried to take hold. Up till EP6 there where no reds that explicitly deny Shannon/Kanon as being two different people, EP6 changed that. Do to the logic error, they where forced to use that card, destroying the possibility that they where different people. Its why the narrator goes on about this being the last time you'll see him in a story, etc.

So basically she's trying to deny Shkanon by saying, "In a world where each person exist as individual, Im the 18th person in Rokkenjima". To which they reply "Sorry, that world does not exist."
Cao Ni Ma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-15, 14:26   Link #25615
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
None of these is a particularly satisfying resolution to the problem, but if you reject all of them... what do you do?
Call Ryukishi an idiot at best and a cheat at worst. :3

Quote:
Ah, I must have overlooked something - which red does it contradict?
The whole thing about the number of people on the island not being affected besides Erika's arrival. If Kanon has a new body, that effective makes him a new person, since EP6 seems to offer the "There were only 16 people" interpretation as possible.

Quote:
of course there's the discrepancy between the numbers, but what's the deal with Erika introducing herself here? Her lines really feel like she's setting herself up for the 17-people line. She knew of or suspected ShKanon but refused to acknowledge it. And maybe she even knew in End but wanted to dismiss it so badly that she contrived a Natsuhi culprit scenario.

Does this not fit with her super-smart-yet-anti-fantasy nature?
I think she just wanted to be denied. Even something like Erika Furudo never came to Rokkenjima would have done. I think, however, Battler and Beatrice chose to give her the most respectful leave possible, and that inadvertently shows an aspect of Shkanon.

Quote:
um how can erika say I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima!!???
there's 17 people including her and she say's that she's 18 person with red? HOW?
unless red is a lie . (like everything in this novel)
Think of it this way. In Star Wars, Luke Skywalker can use the Force. However, you and I both know that in reality, There's no such thing as the Force, or such a person as Luke Skywalker.

Same thing here. Erika can claim whatever she wants about how she exists in EP5 and EP6, but in the REAL Rokkenjima, she never existed.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-15, 18:39   Link #25616
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I think to him they are like really good hints. But that's like laughing about a persons inability to solve a question when you looked it up in a solution booklet yourself. The problem is, he seems to have really big problems to think outsode of his own position.
Well, all the questions are easy when you know the answer, so I guess it's really hard for a person who knows all the answers from the beginning and therefore never had to answer them, to make the questions and figure out how difficult is to answer to them for people who don't know all the answers and possibly will never know all of them.

So I understand how difficult it must be for him to think outside his position... though I blame him for chosing too many answers that are yes possible but so unlikely I guessed some of them but then discharged them because I told myself 'come on, how many chances there are this could happen in real life?'.

It turns out in Umineko they had the chance to happen...

It can be Ryukishi wanted this, he wanted us to think out of the schemes... but I don't really aprecciate stories with a plot involving too many things with a low chance of happening even when there's no mystery involved and when I'm supposed to guess them... I apprecciate it even less.
I guess it's a matter of personal tastes, after all.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-16, 02:14   Link #25617
erneiz_hyde
18782+18782=37564
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
Btw guys, I have heard a news that says there's an upcoming Umineko volume titled "Umineko no Naku Koro ni Hane ~ Warera no Kokuhaku" which will act as a "confession" or final answer of sorts coming up this winter comifest.

Supposedly it's a big volume with over 30000 japanese fonts in it.

Here's where I found the news, but it doesn't explain too much atm.
__________________
erneiz_hyde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-16, 02:36   Link #25618
LyricalAura
Dea ex Kakera
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Btw guys, I have heard a news that says there's an upcoming Umineko volume titled "Umineko no Naku Koro ni Hane ~ Warera no Kokuhaku" which will act as a "confession" or final answer of sorts coming up this winter comifest.

Supposedly it's a big volume with over 30000 japanese fonts in it.

Here's where I found the news, but it doesn't explain too much atm.
There's a little more info... It says that the booklet is a "note from the true culprit" and will reveal the solutions to all of the impossible murders. But 30000 characters is a pretty hefty chunk of text for just that, so there's probably a lot more than just the tricks.

Also, "Hane" and "Warera no Kokuhaku" seem to be separate releases. Hane is being released as a game on CD, so from the name I'd hazard a guess that it's a second collection of extra tips, covering the stuff that wasn't included in Tsubasa.
__________________
"Something has fallen on us that falls very seldom on men; perhaps the worst thing that can fall on them. We have found the truth; and the truth makes no sense."
LyricalAura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-16, 03:05   Link #25619
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
God, someone needs to buy that book, translate it, and post it.

Though I'm afraid of the answers leading to something really dumb and unsatisfying.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-16, 03:07   Link #25620
MainCharacter
All Evils of the World
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Think of it this way. In Star Wars, Luke Skywalker can use the Force. However, you and I both know that in reality, There's no such thing as the Force, or such a person as Luke Skywalker.

Same thing here. Erika can claim whatever she wants about how she exists in EP5 and EP6, but in the REAL Rokkenjima, she never existed.
I think from now on we should all always use Star Wars to explain ourselves or things in Umineko. XD
MainCharacter is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:13.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
We use Silk.