2010-09-09, 21:35 | Link #17541 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
|
Quote:
This goes back to "without love it cannot be seen", and the nature of the Rokkenjimma catbox. If we trust the individual telling the story that is their "truth", then we can accept it as the actual reality. If we do not, we reject their perspective, and attempt to establish our own, or, perhaps, seek another individual that would put forth an interpretation we prefer. "Prove witches exist", "Prove the existence of numbers", "Prove there was really 100 tons of gold", etc. All of those are essentially just concepts and interpretations. We ourselves have not seen the events firsthand, and only can hold absolute trust in the Red Truth, since it is fact which need not be proven....Which one could say is simply "accepted/prior knowledge" if we were to classify it's relationship to us. "It is established that this happened." Or something. In effect, the Red takes the place of what is commonly accepted, or even prior knowledge. All else is simply interpretation/concepts/hypothesis etc. |
|
2010-09-09, 21:53 | Link #17542 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
|
10 tons of gold are easy to prove, even in the real world, no need for red truths.
Proving witches, however, is the same as proving numbers. I think Ange in EP4 was able to understand that there are different layers of existence. Strictly speaking magic doesn't exist, but as a concept it does. Maria could see this concept and therefore for Maria "magic" existed. Ange understood that even if magic didn't exist in the world it could still exist for some people. The same concept can be applied with furnitures. Technically they do not exist, but with "love" you can see them, you can talk to them, you can play with them. Hell, people even fall in love with them, and no I'm not talking about Shannon and Kanon specifically, I'm talking about those madmen that want to marry 2D characters.
__________________
|
2010-09-09, 21:57 | Link #17543 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I wouldn't call that love, more like obsession. |
|||
2010-09-09, 22:12 | Link #17544 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
|
Yeah probably, but you know...
There was that book where one of the characters realized that her wife didn't really knew him, she had an image of him that was different from his real self. This man then wondered, "if she doesn't really know me, and she thinks I am what I really am not, then who she really loves? Does she love me, or isn't it more true to say that she loves the false image that she superposed over me?" And this kind of situation isn't even really that unusual. This completely reverses the matter. There are many people that do not actually love other people but illusions they made up. The only difference is that these illusions have a vessel, while 2D characters do not.
__________________
|
2010-09-09, 22:21 | Link #17545 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
|
Quote:
It's not so much a matter of love, but desire or a hunger for the ideal. And when it doesnt show up, imagining that it has. |
|
2010-09-09, 22:37 | Link #17546 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
|
frankly speaking... uh... this is probably brutal but...
Dante didn't love Beatrice, he loved the idealized image he made of her. He barely talked to her, for the most part he just watched her during masses, there's no way he really knew her. Dante was married and had absolutely no intention to divorce and marry Beatrice instead, hell "divorce" didn't even exist at that time. Even so Dante believed his love for Beatrice was the greatest form of love possible. And Kinzo? Even so he was "loving" Beatrice2, what he really loved and kept loving was the "ghost" of Beatrice Castiglioni, an illusion, he didn't really love Beatrice2. Battler is the same really. The Beatrice he loves doesn't even exist. He knows that she truly is Shannon, however he wants her to talk like her witch self, something that Shannon would never do. If you think about all this, the idea that Jessica and George fell in love with furnitures isn't that strange.
__________________
|
2010-09-09, 23:17 | Link #17547 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Beatrice is the true self she could never express to anyone but Battler. Quote:
|
||||
2010-09-09, 23:27 | Link #17548 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
|
Quote:
................................ Unless she meant she wanted to be killed for real...
__________________
|
|
2010-09-09, 23:37 | Link #17549 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
|
Jan-poo what do you make of the ep4last.png's in the efe folder? I'm talking about those red texts that appear and flash at the screen at the end of the episode.
EDIT: I just thought I 'd ask since a few of them seem relevant to this discussion. One says "Please kill me quickly", another says "Why can't I love anyone?" and yet another says "Try and stop me"
__________________
Last edited by Judoh; 2010-09-09 at 23:59. |
2010-09-09, 23:55 | Link #17550 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
|
Quote:
If you look at it that way, one could see something almost poignant in wanting the one to mete justice onto you to be the one you love, who you also helped to take nearly everything from. |
|
2010-09-10, 00:10 | Link #17551 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
|
Quote:
Well one of the first thing I thought after EP7 is that it explained a lot of the fragmented red texts that appeared at the end of EP4, and they also match with Kanon and Shannon last words during the duel. Yasu, Shannon, Kanon... they all say that it would have been better if they died right after being born. Quote:
Yasu survived at a big price, her body disfigured, she doesn't think she's qualified to love, then it was better if they let her die. The step to "I want to die" is close, and Beatrice wants Battler to kill her... if Battler doesn't kill her... she will kill him... Man... is Beatrice's mind really that fucked up? I don't want to think she's a mass murderer, but the evidences against her are overwhelming...
__________________
|
||
2010-09-10, 01:52 | Link #17552 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
|
Hmm... I don't think Yasu's and Beatrice's personalities are that similar. Nor is Yasu's and Shannon's. But well, it's being pointed out several times people change over time.
Well, in EP7's Tea Party Beatrice had dead/empty eyes. That seemed seriously odd to me. In addition, the killings took place in Lion's world as well - and Lion had no reason to plan anything. So, my guess is someone exploited the situation created by the epitaph, and Kyrie Time happened.
__________________
|
2010-09-10, 06:57 | Link #17553 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
|
Anyway even if there is an exploiter, all evidence says that Beatrice wanted to kill everyone. If you think that the 900tons of explosive existed, then Beatrice knew about them.
If it were me, I'd make disarming such a monstrous device my priority. At the very least I would destroy the trigger (disposing of the explosive would be quite problematic... but not something impossible to do in two years). I don't know about you, but personally I wouldn't be able to sleep comfortably If I knew I was sitting on enough TNT to pulverize me and everyone I knew. That of course makes Genji equally questionable, but that Genji is a robot who consider obeying his master a priority over any kind of moral issue was already ascertained.
__________________
|
2010-09-10, 07:12 | Link #17554 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
|
But he hid the fact that the baby survived from his Master and lied to everyone for many years. Yes, he was afraid, and rightly so, that Kinzo would repeat his "mistake", but these his actions can't be considered as "obedience over moral issues".
|
2010-09-10, 08:42 | Link #17555 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
|
Quote:
Although one could argue that in episode 6 chick-beatrice=shannon therefore that's why Battler doesn't like her then Shannon goes psycho and stuff. ...Sorry, in a hurry. Will make more sense of that when I come back. |
|
2010-09-10, 09:48 | Link #17556 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
|
this video I found makes me wonder if Ryuukishi's calculations were correct:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0Bl2...eature=related this is the record of a one million pounds of explosives set off to simulate the effect of an atomic bomb shockwave. one million pounds is roughly the equivalent of 450 tonnes, that is half of the amount that caused the Rokkenjima incident according to the EP7 tea party the kind of damage generated doesn't seem congruent to what I was expecting. The diameter of the fireball is more or less as big as a destroyer (about 150 meters). It's hard to imagine that by doubling that amount of explosive you could reach 1 km. Damage on the ground seems to be negligible, although rokkenjima is probably made of brittle rocks that would crumble more easily. Judging the shockwave shown in this video I think the Kuwadorian would probably suffer heavy damage, but it wouldn't be razed. Eva was probably in the basement when the explosion happened and got up only after the shockwave passed.
__________________
|
2010-09-10, 10:41 | Link #17557 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
|
Quote:
Is it looking too hard on some details? Or you are dubious the reveal of explosives buried beneath the houses?
__________________
|
|
2010-09-10, 10:58 | Link #17558 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
|
Quote:
The distance between the port and the chapel is probably less than 1km, I estimate 500 m or so. But this doesn't matter. Beatrice in the EP7 tea party said that the 900 tons of explosive would create a 1km wide crater, and since Ange was watching that scene, that prediction must be congruent with what really happened, else Ange would doubt it. As for the existence of the explosive, yes I find it very hard to believe for several reasons, but this is yet again not what I'm concern about. My question is: given a 1km wide crater, what is the actual amount of TNT that you need to imagine to explain it with a bomb theory? do 900tons of TNT actually suffice?
__________________
|
|
2010-09-10, 11:14 | Link #17559 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
|
Quote:
Though I have no idea what sort of soil it had or how deep the explosive were buried.
__________________
|
|
2010-09-10, 11:39 | Link #17560 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
|
For comparison, the largest man-made crater in the United States is Sedan Crater in Nevada, created by a buried nuclear weapon with a yield equivalent to 104 kilotons of TNT. That crater has a diameter of 0.39 kilometers.
Are we supposed to believe that less than a hundredth of the TNT produced a crater over twice as large? For that matter, why wasn't Kuwadorian razed by ejecta in the process?
__________________
|
|
|