[manga] Sasuke stronger than Naruto

[Cub-Sama]

Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo

Remember that Sakura mentioned that Sasuke may have been using drugs to enhance his performance. As useless as Sakura may be in the battlefield, I have no doubt that she has enough medical knowledge in the area of ninjutsu to be able to tell such things. And let's not forget the CS, which automatically enhances performance as well. If it wasn't for that, he would've never been able to defeat Deidara or Naruto in the valley of the end.

The CS is the same as using the gates, it breaks off the limits of chakra usage and allows you to use it all at once only difference is it makes your chakra more evil and sinister and the second level literally makes you into a monster. Also drugs only last a certain period and then they wear off, no drug in Naruto has shown to be perfect so unless Sasuke has been using drugs off-screen this whole time to improve his performance, also she only said that because she thought his improvement was too quick for even a genius like him.

It shouldnt really be compared to steroids because all it does is break limits if you think of the body as a reservoir of chakra the CS just opens the faucet and lets it all flow out.

Also without the Kyuubi Naruto wouldnt have been able to defeat: Haku, Sasuke, Neji, Gaara, Orochimaru, Pain. And without the sharingan Kakashi wouldnt be as good as he is now, people receive things from others that make them stronger deal with it. At least Sasuke loses most things he artificially gains.

And Sasuke never killed Itachi himself. Itachi died because of his injuries and because he overexerted himself using Susanoo against Sasuke. Normally, Itachi wouldn't have had as much trouble as he had against Sasuke. Zetsu confirmed that himself during the beginning of their final match. Sasuke never had to kill anyone and still received the powers of the MS.

And where did his injuries come from? If someone forced the other to do something that killed them then they are still responsible of said death, also yes I know that Itachi would've completely raped Sasuke if he didnt set it up for Sasuke to kill him fact is though he set it up for Sasuke to kill him before his sickness did and Sasuke did. Thus Sasuke got the MS.

You keep complaining about Naruto sitting on a pillar and bathin in toad oil to get his powers, making it sound like it's easy. Perhaps you forgot what the oil does and how much of a risk it brings to whoever bathes in it. Naruto risked his life while using it, something Orochimaru's drugs did not bring. Worst case scenario for Sasuke is that he would've become Orochimaru's slave, not death. Besides, Naruto trained to absorb natural chakra. For that, he needed concentration, focus and stillness of the mind. Meditation is as much a part of training as anything. Sasuke did none of that. Everything he ever had was given to him.

Yeah....Sasuke had no risk at all...especially when there was only a 30% chance of survival of the curse seal, the CS2 drug almost killing him, the CS releasing the limits of chakra usage allowing the user to use all their chakra which would kill them and the longer he remains in that state the closer he slips into an unchangeable state. Right...no risk at all.

Naruto didnt have that much of a risk if he slipped into the frog thing too much Fukusaku would knock him back to normal, he just had to clear his mind to draw in the energy on his own.

[Tsuyoshi]

Originally Posted by Cub-Sama

The CS is the same as using the gates, it breaks off the limits of chakra usage and allows you to use it all at once only difference is it makes your chakra more evil and sinister and the second level literally makes you into a monster. Also drugs only last a certain period and then they wear off, no drug in Naruto has shown to be perfect so unless Sasuke has been using drugs off-screen this whole time to improve his performance, also she only said that because she thought his improvement was too quick for even a genius like him.

It shouldnt really be compared to steroids because all it does is break limits if you think of the body as a reservoir of chakra the CS just opens the faucet and lets it all flow out.

Yes, the effects of the CS is similar, but the CS stands for cursed seal. That power was GIVEN to Sasuke. Rock Lee had to WORK for a long time to be able to open the chakra gates and perform the Omote and Ura Renge. The CS in itself is like a drug because it artificially improves his performance in battle, very much unlike Lee's gates or Naruto's Senjutsu. Senjutsu involves the collection of natural chakra. By definition, it is a natural process.

Originally Posted by Cub-Sama

Also without the Kyuubi Naruto wouldnt have been able to defeat: Haku, Sasuke, Neji, Gaara, Orochimaru, Pain. And without the sharingan Kakashi wouldnt be as good as he is now, people receive things from others that make them stronger deal with it. At least Sasuke loses most things he artificially gains.

Without Kyuubi's chakra, Naruto would've had much greater control over his own chakra. It was due to the interference of Kyuubi's chakra that Naruto wasn't able to properly use his own chakra. It's much like a TV or radio signal that meets interference from another signal and occasionally a different random channel pops up. Without that interference, Naruto would've been much more skilled and reliable. We don't know for certain how he would've handled all the people you mentioned.

However, I will argue against your point about Pain. If Naruto didn't have Kyuubi's chakra, he would've been able to fuse with the elder toads easily, and he wouldn't have had to go through the trouble of creating other Kage Bunshin to replenish his Sage chakra when the toads could help him with that easily. Pa toad wouldn't have been killed in the battle either.

Originally Posted by Cub-Sama

And where did his injuries come from? If someone forced the other to do something that killed them then they are still responsible of said death, also yes I know that Itachi would've completely raped Sasuke if he didnt set it up for Sasuke to kill him fact is though he set it up for Sasuke to kill him before his sickness did and Sasuke did. Thus Sasuke got the MS.

Sasuke may have been responsible for Itachi's death in some way, but he was not the direct cause of his death. Sasuke did not actually kill him. Itachi died because he tried too hard, but Sasuke never actually dealt Itachi a mortal blow. He only died because he allowed for himself to die. He let his injuries do the work and accelerated the process through an intense battle. Itachi's intensions, after all, were not to give Sasuke the MS, a symbol of the Uchiha's hatred that Itachi wanted to put an end to, but to release Sasuke of his CS.

Originally Posted by Cub-Sama

Yeah....Sasuke had no risk at all...especially when there was only a 30% chance of survival of the curse seal, the CS2 drug almost killing him, the CS releasing the limits of chakra usage allowing the user to use all their chakra which would kill them and the longer he remains in that state the closer he slips into an unchangeable state. Right...no risk at all.

Naruto didnt have that much of a risk if he slipped into the frog thing too much Fukusaku would knock him back to normal, he just had to clear his mind to draw in the energy on his own.

I never said there was no risk at all. There was some risk involved for Sasuke. His chances of survival were low because most people who received the CS died. However, look at how many people had the CS in that prison where Sasuke recruited Juugo. Look at how many of them there were, and look at how many Senjutsu masters there are. Considering the numbers, I'd say that if it were easier to learn Senjutsu, I would've thought there were more Senjutsu masters than people with the CS. Fukusaku was there to ensure that Naruto didn't die, yes. That reduced the risk itself, but I'm not considering external influences such as the elder toad or anything of that nature. I'm speaking strictly for the frog oil and the CS by themselves.

[Cub-Sama]

Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo

Yes, the effects of the CS is similar, but the CS stands for cursed seal. That power was GIVEN to Sasuke. Rock Lee had to WORK for a long time to be able to open the chakra gates and perform the Omote and Ura Renge. The CS in itself is like a drug because it artificially improves his performance in battle, very much unlike Lee's gates or Naruto's Senjutsu. Senjutsu involves the collection of natural chakra. By definition, it is a natural process.

If you read what I was saying carefully then you would notice my point is that it gives Sasuke no extra boosts just lets him use all his power to the fullest anything extra chakra he was shown to have with CS was his own chakra and not anyone elses it never gave him extra anything. The only thing it gave him was wings and that is it.

Without Kyuubi's chakra, Naruto would've had much greater control over his own chakra. It was due to the interference of Kyuubi's chakra that Naruto wasn't able to properly use his own chakra. It's much like a TV or radio signal that meets interference from another signal and occasionally a different random channel pops up. Without that interference, Naruto would've been much more skilled and reliable. We don't know for certain how he would've handled all the people you mentioned.

However he wouldnt have as much chakra the reason he was even able to use the FRS was because he used the kyuubi chakra or the natural chakra. Also the way the Kyuubi was sealed doesnt inhibit his chakra control ability at all the way the Kyuubi was sealed it allows a reasonable amount of chakra not enough to influence him be mixed in with his own so it doesnt do anything to his chakra control, and if he can take the shape manipulation and nature manipulation to its absolute peak how does he have bad chakra control he has the best chakra control shown so far.

However, I will argue against your point about Pain. If Naruto didn't have Kyuubi's chakra, he would've been able to fuse with the elder toads easily, and he wouldn't have had to go through the trouble of creating other Kage Bunshin to replenish his Sage chakra when the toads could help him with that easily. Pa toad wouldn't have been killed in the battle either

So? Even with natural energy Pain could hold his own the real turning point was the kyuubi appearing and going 6-8 tails, Chibaku Tensei wouldve killed sage naruto but kyuubi naruto could make a hole in it and not die. Also Fukusaku still might have died if he stabbed his shoulder then Fukusaku and Shima wouldve died and him constantly drawing in natural energy wouldve been more dangerous with Pain's chakra disturbing sword breaking the balance turning him into a frog.

Itachi's intensions, after all, were not to give Sasuke the MS, a symbol of the Uchiha's hatred that Itachi wanted to put an end to, but to release Sasuke of his CS.

Which is why the main thing Itachi said to Sasuke was 'Gain the same eyes as me' he set it up for Sasuke to get MS and releasing Sasuke of Orochimaru and CS was just something he thought of later. The main intention was for Sasuke to gain MS so he could defeat Madara.

I never said there was no risk at all. There was some risk involved for Sasuke. His chances of survival were low because most people who received the CS died. However, look at how many people had the CS in that prison where Sasuke recruited Juugo. Look at how many of them there were, and look at how many Senjutsu masters there are. Considering the numbers, I'd say that if it were easier to learn Senjutsu, I would've thought there were more Senjutsu masters than people with the CS. Fukusaku was there to ensure that Naruto didn't die, yes. That reduced the risk itself, but I'm not considering external influences such as the elder toad or anything of that nature. I'm speaking strictly for the frog oil and the CS by themselves.

Sage training can only be used by people with large amounts of chakra meaning of the people we have seen so far only: Naruto, Jiraiya, Jinchuurikis, Raikage, Kisame and Madara would be able to do sage training so that is probably why there are less and all those people in the prision didnt have CS they were infected with the uncontrolled version of the Juugo's enzymes which turned them straight into CS2 then killed them. Only the Sound 4, Kimimaro, Juugo and Sasuke have been shown to master the CS

[Tsuyoshi]

Originally Posted by Cub-Sama

If you read what I was saying carefully then you would notice my point is that it gives Sasuke no extra boosts just lets him use all his power to the fullest anything extra chakra he was shown to have with CS was his own chakra and not anyone elses it never gave him extra anything. The only thing it gave him was wings and that is it.

Yes, I did read what you wrote. What I mean is that it is wrong to compare the CS to opening the chakra gates as Lee does because Lee had to WORK to acheive that result. Sasuke did not. He was GIVEN a seal that allows him to do something similar.

Originally Posted by Cub-Sama

However he wouldnt have as much chakra the reason he was even able to use the FRS was because he used the kyuubi chakra or the natural chakra. Also the way the Kyuubi was sealed doesnt inhibit his chakra control ability at all the way the Kyuubi was sealed it allows a reasonable amount of chakra not enough to influence him be mixed in with his own so it doesnt do anything to his chakra control, and if he can take the shape manipulation and nature manipulation to its absolute peak how does he have bad chakra control he has the best chakra control shown so far.

In the beginning, that was true, but as Kakashi said, Kyuubi's chakra had been beginning to leak out by itself during their first mission against Zabuza. Naruto was always a fast healer, something we all know is due to Kyuubi's presence within Naruto. Whether Naruto had any say in it or not doesn't matter. Kyuubi's chakra was mixing with Naruto's all by itself. He can only control that much chakra so easily because he had to go through strict training to achieve that, and don't forget Naruto still needs to use a Kage Bunshin to create a normal Rasengan. if he had more control, he could make a Rasengan while sparing the chakra required to create a clone.

Yes, without the Kyuubi, Naruto wouldn't have had as much overall chakra as he currently has, but he would've been far more efficient with his own chakra. The amount of control he would've have would've more than made up for the missing chakra. It's like comparing a light bulb which uses plenty of energy but loses much of that energy due to excess heat and a lightbulb which uses less energy but is just as bright because most of the energy is converted into light energy rather than heat energy.

Originally Posted by Cub-Sama

So? Even with natural energy Pain could hold his own the real turning point was the kyuubi appearing and going 6-8 tails, Chibaku Tensei wouldve killed sage naruto but kyuubi naruto could make a hole in it and not die. Also Fukusaku still might have died if he stabbed his shoulder then Fukusaku and Shima wouldve died and him constantly drawing in natural energy wouldve been more dangerous with Pain's chakra disturbing sword breaking the balance turning him into a frog.

The fact is that the elder toads moved indipendently. The only reason Naruto's fight against Pain failed in the beginning and forced him to use Kyuubi's chakra was because the elder toads could not fuse with Naruto. If they could, Naruto's supply of Natural chakra would've lasted longer, and Pain wouldn't have been given the chance to stab one of the elders because they would've been on Naruto's shoulders the whole time. Naruto would've been far more efficient with his chakra and had a greater supply of Sage chakra as well.

Originally Posted by Cub-Sama

Which is why the main thing Itachi said to Sasuke was 'Gain the same eyes as me' he set it up for Sasuke to get MS and releasing Sasuke of Orochimaru and CS was just something he thought of later. The main intention was for Sasuke to gain MS so he could defeat Madara.

Even so, Sasuke didn't gain the MS by outright killing his brother. He simply received them. Like I said, Sasuke never dealt the death blow on Itachi.

[james0246]

^And Kakashi didn't receive the MS (or the Sharingan) by outright killing Obito, so what's your point? You are looking for reasons to dislike (or at least downplay) Sasuke while you casually dismiss the exact same problems with Naruto.

The fact of the matter is Naruto would not have been able to undergo Sage Training without having the Kyuubi at his disposal. Specifically, Sage Training requires that the individual have a extraordinary reserve of chakra to begin with, and without the Kyuubi Naruto's chakra reserves would not be as large as they are (it presumably took Jiraiya into his late teens if not twenties before he could learn Sage Mode specifically because he was too weak before that time).

And, Sasuke using the CS/CS2 is almost exactly the same as Lee using the 8 Gates - as tough as it was for Lee to learn to open the gates (which I am not sure if we actually know how tough it was, the sole training sequence we have of Lee is dedicated to learning the Konoha Senpuu technique, not opening the 8 Gates), it was equally tough for Sasuke to learn to control the CS/CS2 without serious side-effects (he ws the only one that learned how to do partial transformations, something only Juugo could do previously).

I'm sure I could continue, but suffice to say, anything you can claim about Naruto (he works hard, his power-ups are more legitimate, etc) can just as easily be said about Sasuke. They are truly both sides of the same coin, and the entire manga has dedicated itself to that analogy. So, unless you also critique Naruto in a similar fashion, you are simply picking and choosing what you want to agree and disagree with.

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by james0246

^And Kakashi didn't receive the MS (or the Sharingan) by outright killing Obito, so what's your point? You are looking for reasons to dislike (or at least downplay) Sasuke while you casually dismiss the exact same problems with Naruto.

what does that have to do with anything? Kakashi isn't in discussion here

The fact of the matter is Naruto would not have been able to undergo Sage Training without having the Kyuubi at his disposal. Specifically, Sage Training requires that the individual have a extraordinary reserve of chakra to begin with, and without the Kyuubi Naruto's chakra reserves would not be as large as they are (it presumably took Jiraiya into his late teens if not twenties before he could learn Sage Mode specifically because he was too weak before that time).

False, chakra reserves have nothing to do with using natural chakra. Also, the kyuubi disrupts natural energies, NOT having the kyuubi would benefit him rather than the other way around.

Naruto on his own has an insanely high chakra reserve. The kyuubi has nothing to do with it. The kyuubi's chakra only comes to play when naruto depletes his own chakra.

And, Sasuke using the CS/CS2 is almost exactly the same as Lee using the 8 Gates - as tough as it was for Lee to learn to open the gates (which I am not sure if we actually know how tough it was, the sole training sequence we have of Lee is dedicated to learning the Konoha Senpuu technique, not opening the 8 Gates), it was equally tough for Sasuke to learn to control the CS/CS2 without serious side-effects (he ws the only one that learned how to do partial transformations, something only Juugo could do previously).

I keep hearing about how the CS is similar to the 8 gates, I would like to see some actual dialogue in the manga that supports this. And Sasuke didn't work hard to control it, when he popped out of the pedo box the CS was stabilized.

I'm sure I could continue, but suffice to say, anything you can claim about Naruto (he works hard, his power-ups are more legitimate, etc) can just as easily be said about Sasuke. They are truly both sides of the same coin, and the entire manga has dedicated itself to that analogy. So, unless you also critique Naruto in a similar fashion, you are simply picking and choosing what you want to agree and disagree with.

No, Sasuke was intended to be the opposite of Naruto, they weren't intended to be the same. Sasuke is suppose to represent someone who wants vengence and the strength to obtain it, no matter the cost or methods. While Naruto is about ending what Sasuke represents, and to work hard on your own merits.

[Hunter]

The funny thing about trying to dismiss a character strength based on whether he deserve his strength in the first place isn't only that more often than not the same "argument" can be used for any other character but that it's completely pointless anyway. Deserving has nothing to do with power, if that was the case Lee would be the strongest there is and wouldn't be so utterly irrelevant to the plot.
Booo Yamato who uses a power that was given to hil by Orochimaru! See? It's just stupid.

[Cub-Sama]

Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo

Yes, I did read what you wrote. What I mean is that it is wrong to compare the CS to opening the chakra gates as Lee does because Lee had to WORK to acheive that result. Sasuke did not. He was GIVEN a seal that allows him to do something similar.

And Kakashi was GIVEN the sharingan, Kirabi and Naruto were GIVEN bijuus, Ao was GIVEN the byakugan.

In the beginning, that was true, but as Kakashi said, Kyuubi's chakra had been beginning to leak out by itself during their first mission against Zabuza. Naruto was always a fast healer, something we all know is due to Kyuubi's presence within Naruto. Whether Naruto had any say in it or not doesn't matter. Kyuubi's chakra was mixing with Naruto's all by itself. He can only control that much chakra so easily because he had to go through strict training to achieve that, and don't forget Naruto still needs to use a Kage Bunshin to create a normal Rasengan. if he had more control, he could make a Rasengan while sparing the chakra required to create a clone.

The Kyuubi chakra only leaked out because Naruto loss control before that the chakra was still being mixed with Naruto's natural chakra which is what gave him such a huge chakra supply, he never had to go through strict training to control it he had to go through training to control EXCESS kyuubi chakra which came out either from his own will or loss of control over emotions. After checking yes you were right he would have better chakra control because a portion of his chakra is rejecting the bulk of the kyuubi's chakra naturally and only letting a small portion mix in giving him a large amount of chakra. (Which if he did not have will not allow him to use: Rasengan repeatedly, kage bunshin, sage mode etc...). So not having the kyuubi would make Naruto suck hard.

However I doubt he would be good with chakra control even without the kyuubi because he is retarded.

Yes, without the Kyuubi, Naruto wouldn't have had as much overall chakra as he currently has, but he would've been far more efficient with his own chakra. The amount of control he would've have would've more than made up for the missing chakra. It's like comparing a light bulb which uses plenty of energy but loses much of that energy due to excess heat and a lightbulb which uses less energy but is just as bright because most of the energy is converted into light energy rather than heat energy.

Yes it is great to be able to use your chakra carefully....especially when you can only use the only technique you know ONCE! I would rather have a powerful weapon that destroys everything around me that I cant control than something I can control and can barely do sh*t with.

The fact is that the elder toads moved indipendently. The only reason Naruto's fight against Pain failed in the beginning and forced him to use Kyuubi's chakra was because the elder toads could not fuse with Naruto. If they could, Naruto's supply of Natural chakra would've lasted longer, and Pain wouldn't have been given the chance to stab one of the elders because they would've been on Naruto's shoulders the whole time. Naruto would've been far more efficient with his chakra and had a greater supply of Sage chakra as well.

1) As James and I said without the kyuubi Naruto wouldnt be able to use Sage Mode

2) Even if he could use sage mode Jiraiya who knew a lot more jutsu and more experienced with sage mode fought against 3 Pains and barely came out on top then was killed when they all stabbed him. Naruto knows a lot less jutsu, is less experienced, will lose all his fast healing without the kyuubi, would die if he fought with all 6 Pains at once.

3) Jiraiya never had to face shinra tensei, did you see what Pain could do with one nail and you are telling me he cant even hit 2 toads on Naruto's shoulder nor even moving, he could drag the frogs into his sword if he wanted to.

@HayashiTakara not trying to be rude but did you read the manga, Kakashi said that the CS is dangerous to Sasuke because it uses the chakra the body would normally use to keep the body alive. Fukusaku said that Sage Mode is suited for him and not everyone can use it: because only ninja with high chakra supplies can use sage mode, and Jiraiya said that Naruto has a high chakra supply because a small portion of the kyuubi's chakra is constantly mixing in, due to the seal Minato put on him and when Orochimaru restricted access to the kyuubi's chakra he could barely even mould chakra which is why Jiraiya took Orochimaru's seal off.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

what does that have to do with anything? Kakashi isn't in discussion here

If you are going to complain about Sasuke not killing his brother to gain MS, then you have to issue the same complaint concerning Kakashi not killing Obito (or whomever Kakashi didn't kill).

In other words, stop picking and choosing which parts of the story you argee or disagree with. If you consider a type of power-up to be bad, then argue that all characters with a similar power-up are bad, don't simply decide that one character is worse for arbitrary reasons.

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

False, chakra reserves have nothing to do with using natural chakra. Also, the kyuubi disrupts natural energies, NOT having the kyuubi would benefit him rather than the other way around.

Re-read the manga, charka reserves have everything to do with Senjutsu. Ol'Toad Dude (Fucksuki...Fukusuku...or whatever his name was) specifically said to Naruto that only those with High Chakra reserves/power levels can undertake Senjutsu training. If Naruto did not have the Kyuubi, he would not have the chakra reserves that he does have (not to mention that whose to say if Jiraiya would have even been intrested in training him, and a plethora of other "ifs" that pop up when you take the Kyuubi out of the question.

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

Naruto on his own has an insanely high chakra reserve. The kyuubi has nothing to do with it. The kyuubi's chakra only comes to play when naruto depletes his own chakra.

What other 12 year old had Jounin level chakra resrves? Konohamaru has equally powerful lineage, yet he has no where near the amount of chakra as base Naruto does. In the end, Naruto's vast chakra reserve comes from the Kyuubi's chakra bleeding over into Naruto since he was a little kid.

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

I keep hearing about how the CS is similar to the 8 gates, I would like to see some actual dialogue in the manga that supports this. And Sasuke didn't work hard to control it, when he popped out of the pedo box the CS was stabilized.

Besdies the fact that only 1 out of 10 live from the initial infection? Or, the fact that the person needs to be put in a near-death state just to attain the CS2? Or the fact that the CS/CS2 slowly takes over the mind? Please do not downplay Sasuke's role in gaining control of what was supposed to be uncontrollable - the CS/CS2.

That being said, Cub-sama already gave a nice comparison between the CS and the 8 Gates.

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

No, Sasuke was intended to be the opposite of Naruto, they weren't intended to be the same. Sasuke is suppose to represent someone who wants vengence and the strength to obtain it, no matter the cost or methods. While Naruto is about ending what Sasuke represents, and to work hard on your own merits.

Um, the analogy does correspond to opposites..."two sides of the same coin" - opposite yet equal, that is what Naruto and Sasuke are and always have been.

[Cub-Sama]

Where is SpyderSidious to tell people to stop sipping the haterade and just admit that you hate Sasuke just because he is Sasuke and stop trying to downplay the hax Naruto has and up the amount of hax Sasuke has.

NARUTO AND SASUKE ARE BOTH HAX AND WILL BE HAX UNTIL THE END OF THE MANGA

[Endrance]

the point is everyone in the whole manga was "given" some kind of power i still dont understand why so many people wanna condemn sasukes abilities but not anyone elses. i mean i dont hear people ranting about neji being given the byakugan or naruto for having the strongest tailed beast its just so ridiculous the haterade really does make ya drunk with sasuke hate to the point you cant even see that hey pretty much everyone is hax...we dont see raikage training for his abilities either yet i dont see any complaints there

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by Cub-Sama

@HayashiTakara not trying to be rude but did you read the manga, Kakashi said that the CS is dangerous to Sasuke because it uses the chakra the body would normally use to keep the body alive. Fukusaku said that Sage Mode is suited for him and not everyone can use it: because only ninja with high chakra supplies can use sage mode, and Jiraiya said that Naruto has a high chakra supply because a small portion of the kyuubi's chakra is constantly mixing in, due to the seal Minato put on him and when Orochimaru restricted access to the kyuubi's chakra he could barely even mould chakra which is why Jiraiya took Orochimaru's seal off.

Sorry but the fact that the Kyuubi's chakra is mixing with Naruto has nothing to do with his high lvl chakra. Jiraiya himself said Naruto already had high chakra and the Kyuubi's chakra plays as a backup generator of sorts.

Orochimarus seal just fked up Naruto's chakra flow in general.

Just because the CS is dangerous doesn't mean it equates to the 8 Gates, that's faulty logic as there are several things that are dangerous to the user. You need to give a better reasoning than that.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by james0246

And, Sasuke using the CS/CS2 is almost exactly the same as Lee using the 8 Gates - as tough as it was for Lee to learn to open the gates (which I am not sure if we actually know how tough it was, the sole training sequence we have of Lee is dedicated to learning the Konoha Senpuu technique, not opening the 8 Gates), it was equally tough for Sasuke to learn to control the CS/CS2 without serious side-effects (he ws the only one that learned how to do partial transformations, something only Juugo could do previously).

Opening the Gates is pretty difficult. It was shown that Lee was the only student of Gai that was able to learn Lotus, which requires opening at least the first gate. Just the fact that Lee was able to open the gates amazed Kakashi and he considered it the mark of a genius.

I agree that gates and using CS are similar. I'd only say that there's a clear difference in that the CS semi-instinctual. That is, once someone has been given CS (and survives it) they can draw on its power immediately, no training required. When Sasuke was in the forest of death, he used the CS powers having no idea that he even received it. That also seemed to be the case at VoTE when he transformed to CS2 for the first time.

It might take some extensive training to master it and avoid the side-effects, but that was never made clear. Sasuke could've trained, but since CS comes from Juugo's genes he could've just synched with CS really well, similar to how Yamato accepted Shodai's genes better than anyone.

Originally Posted by Hunter

The funny thing about trying to dismiss a character strength based on whether he deserve his strength in the first place isn't only that more often than not the same "argument" can be used for any other character but that it's completely pointless anyway. Deserving has nothing to do with power, if that was the case Lee would be the strongest there is and wouldn't be so utterly irrelevant to the plot.
Booo Yamato who uses a power that was given to hil by Orochimaru! See? It's just stupid.

Sorry, but I always thought Yamato's backstory was sorta lame

But definitely, there's no point in talking about who earned and didn't earn their powers, but it's fun to do it anyway.

[joshuafaramir]

Originally Posted by Cub-Sama

However I doubt he would be good with chakra control even without the kyuubi because he is retarded.

How the freak can you say that naruto is retarded when he was able to finish the rasengan that even Jiraiya, Minato and Kakashi couldn't do?

I now think that you're a naruto hater because of your remark.


Anyway, we should change this thread into "Who deserves their power? Naruto or Sasuke?" rather than Sasuke vs. Naruto.

In any case, who are we to say that Sasuke doesn't deserve his power? or Naruto? Both of them worked hard and that's it.

Instead of hating Sasuke, I actually feel sorry for him because of his thirst for vengeance. In the end, his only destroying himself. Whereas Naruto, the only thing I can say to him is that he deserved what he got NOW because he worked hard for it, he made it happen! He didn't just sit around and let his past destroy his future, he overcame it and forgave those who persecuted him.

Sasuke on the other hand, could not let go of his hatred. He has been given the choice to abandon it and start over but he didn't.

Sorry if I got off topic, couldn't help it.


So, we can rant and rave on how Naruto is gay or how Sasuke is gay or how haxed they are or we can have a constructive argument on who's more powerful. (I think only Kishi knows the answer to that.)

Start with elements. Strength and Weaknesses of each jutsu they are using, how they use the jutsu.
I don't believe you can produce what is considered a first-rate cooking without both good ingredients and a good chef. It's the same with jutsus, the jutsu itself and the ability to handle it.

Guess who wins the part with the ability to handle it? I'll leave that to you guys.

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by joshuafaramir

How the freak can you say that naruto is retarded when he was able to finish the rasengan that even Jiraiya, Minato and Kakashi couldn't do?

I now think that you're a naruto hater because of your remark.


Anyway, we should change this thread into "Who deserves their power? Naruto or Sasuke?" rather than Sasuke vs. Naruto.

In any case, who are we to say that Sasuke doesn't deserve his power? or Naruto? Both of them worked hard and that's it.

Instead of hating Sasuke, I actually feel sorry for him because of his thirst for vengeance. In the end, his only destroying himself. Whereas Naruto, the only thing I can say to him is that he deserved what he got NOW because he worked hard for it, he made it happen! He didn't just sit around and let his past destroy his future, he overcame it and forgave those who persecuted him.

Sasuke on the other hand, could not let go of his hatred. He has been given the choice to abandon it and start over but he didn't.

Sorry if I got off topic, couldn't help it.


So, we can rant and rave on how Naruto is gay or how Sasuke is gay or how haxed they are or we can have a constructive argument on who's more powerful. (I think only Kishi knows the answer to that.)

Start with elements. Strength and Weaknesses of each jutsu they are using, how they use the jutsu.
I don't believe you can produce what is considered a first-rate cooking without both good ingredients and a good chef. It's the same with jutsus, the jutsu itself and the ability to handle it.

Guess who wins the part with the ability to handle it? I'll leave that to you guys.

Mentally...Naruto is immensely retarded, and i don't know how anyone could argue against that. He is shown repeatedly to be by far one of the dumbest main characters in manga history. He is able to learn things fast because of his technique and his willpower, but this does not speak to his intelligence.

[milan kyuubi]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

Mentally...Naruto is immensely retarded, and i don't know how anyone could argue against that. He is shown repeatedly to be by far one of the dumbest main characters in manga history. He is able to learn things fast because of his technique and his willpower, but this does not speak to his intelligence.

First of all Naruto isn't retarded. While all others kids even Sasuke for some time had parents to teach them basic stuff Naruto had no one. He had to learn how to read and all others things parents usualy helps their children all alone. Also everybody hated him, who is to say that teachers at the acedamy didn't slow his devoloping a litle becayse of their hatred towards him. He is not smart as others but he isn't retarded for sure. Also the way naruto acts it's alvays on the funny side.

Sorry for geting of topic, but i had to intrvene.

[ZGoten]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

Mentally...Naruto is immensely retarded, and i don't know how anyone could argue against that. He is shown repeatedly to be by far one of the dumbest main characters in manga history. He is able to learn things fast because of his technique and his willpower, but this does not speak to his intelligence.

Well, I think Naruto got a mental upgrade some chapters ago. Forgetting about revenge, and not giving up on Sasuke, although everybody tells him to, showcases that.
Of course, about the latter you could argue, but I bet Naruto´s gonna punch some sense into Sasuke someday, that´s always been the message of the manga - if you believe hard enough, you can do it (it sounds like bla-bla, i know).

Sasuke on the other hand has ben shown pretty dumb lately. I can understand him going at Orochimaru´s place to seek power and killing his brother for revenge (although i don´t think of revenge very highly), but believing Madara´s word and turning against Itachi´s will is just plain stupid. I know, what Madara said is probably the truth, but come on he is THE villain and Sasuke got convinced by just a little conversation. Either Sasuke´s yearning for revenge has made him dumber or Madara has just the same plot-jutsu Naruto has.

@Topic:
It´s pretty hard to choose one right now, but at the moment I´d probably go with Sasuke. There´s probably nothing that could beat Susanoo with the Yata-mirror, exept Kakashi´s dimensional jutsu maybe. Come to think of it, we don´t actually know if Sasuke has the Yata-mirror and that sword, but even without it, Susanoo is beast
Of course when facing an MS user who just called for Susanoo there´s always the possibility to just run, hide and wait for the other guy to run out of power, but I guess that´s against shonen-law.

[TakumiFuji]

I think that Naruto is now seeing the bigger picture especially after his fight with Pain and by trying to stop Madara / Sasuke is part of it.

As far as whose stronger tech goes to Sasuke not because of his Bloodline or CS but his development of techniques he already has 5 varieties of Chidori and is able to takedown an entire brigade of ninja in the 2 and a half years between series all while suppressing the CS.

Naruto has grown the most mentally of all in narutoverse after all the first thing he was told by Jiraiya that because of the Nine tails he is practically in the Bingo Book if that doesn't make you grow up quick nothing will.

And for Naruto's Sage training again shows his adaptability is also far superior to others he used his clones to complete training that not even jiraiya completed.

[Aimingan12]

I personally think both Sasuke and Naruto are equally strong but if I had to choose between who was truly stronger I would say Sasuke.

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

Mentally...Naruto is immensely retarded, and i don't know how anyone could argue against that. He is shown repeatedly to be by far one of the dumbest main characters in manga history. He is able to learn things fast because of his technique and his willpower, but this does not speak to his intelligence.

For a retard has Naruto shown to outsmart one of the most experienced ninja's (Kakuzu), outsmart Sasuke when he was in a pinch and didn't know what to do (saving Kakashi from Zabuza's water prison) and even lectured the smartest chick in the series (Sakura's last confesion).

Not only that.. but he came with an answer no one could think of and as a result he saved half Konoha (giving Nagato his answer). That's quite something for a retard