[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 5 End of the golden witch

[Witch of Uncertainty]

Originally Posted by DgBarca

But it doesn't mean that all the things that are told by another person are false.
There is still thing that you don't have to doubt.

True, but we still can't trust it unless it's confirmed in red.

[DgBarca]

Originally Posted by Witch of Uncertainty

True, but we still can't trust it unless it's confirmed in red.

You could never reach an answer is you doubt of everything.
But in the most obvious lies (fantasy scene), those lies actually hide the truth, according to all the "love" thing and EP7 OP. So it means that you can find an answer with all the lies.

Like EP3 magic battle that is a bit of foreshadowing for the end of the game.
Beatrice seemed to be under checkmate, but in fact, Virgila was back-stabbed from the beginning.

You can make another theory with those "illusion that tell the truth" whit EP1 2nd twilight and EP4.
Kanon cutting bars of iron in EP4 could be referring to Kanon cutting the door chain in EP1. Moreover, there is the spell "circle" that mention "cutting bars of iron".
But it seems to be the contrary in EP2 fir Jessica's room. Ho...Kanon "killed" Jessica's love story. Even suit Beato says that "you betrayed her hope and harmed her badly". It could be a motive for Jessica to kill Kanon.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Sniesk

Am i the only one that thinks that the mirror scene just mean that Shannon killed someone? Kinzo or Kanon maybe. Afterall breaking a mirror is clearly an analogy of breaking her fate. As we know from the dialogue of Beatrice at the of ep4 it is possible that Kinzo abused "her" (assuming she is Shannon, witch to be honest, i'm not so sure of) and maybe she killed him to free herself from him. Do we know exactly how Kinzo died? If i recall, Nanjo just says that he died peacefully, but as the body was hidden, no one ever performed a proper autopsy.
Or she may have killed Kanon (or her other personality, or whatever he is), but i don't want to go into a Shkannon theory, witch i don't support.

Well, you'd have to have a chain of causation from Battler to the murders, but I think it's still supportable:

Battler Sins -> Shannon Affected By Sin -> Shannon Causes Kinzo's Death -> Kinzo's Will/Coverup Causes Murders to Occur

However, I'm still not sure there's ever been any evidence that Kinzo died any way other than peacefully in his room, so we have to ask why we should doubt that. We'd also have to ask about the timing of the mirror breaking scene relative to when Kinzo is reputed to have died. And also of why Shannon would believe that Kinzo dying would free her (she can just... you know... leave).

[Sniesk]

Beatrice said (not in red) that Battler's sin is just one of the cause for the murders, so the whole crime is probably caused by more factors. After all, i find it hard to believe that a broken promise of a 12y.o. boy to a 10y.o. girl can just by itself cause the death of an entire family.

Regarding Shannon, if Kinzo used to abuse her, i don't think he would have let her leave without doing anything. And the mirror scene is definetly something to be taken as a metaphor,
unless she really believed that she would be freed by the witch Beatrice...

[Jan-Poo]

What is your take about the fact that Beatrice couldn't repeat in red that the six FT victims of EP3 were all killed by other people?

So far the easiest explanation was: "Kinzo died of old age, so of course Beatrice couldn't repeat that."

[Oliver]

Actually, one of the best ways for Kinzo to screw everyone over at once is suicide.

[Jan-Poo]

None of the six people committed suicide!

[Witch of Uncertainty]

Originally Posted by DgBarca

You could never reach an answer is you doubt of everything.
But in the most obvious lies (fantasy scene), those lies actually hide the truth, according to all the "love" thing and EP7 OP. So it means that you can find an answer with all the lies.

Like EP3 magic battle that is a bit of foreshadowing for the end of the game.
Beatrice seemed to be under checkmate, but in fact, Virgila was back-stabbed from the beginning.

You can make another theory with those "illusion that tell the truth" whit EP1 2nd twilight and EP4.
Kanon cutting bars of iron in EP4 could be referring to Kanon cutting the door chain in EP1. Moreover, there is the spell "circle" that mention "cutting bars of iron".
But it seems to be the contrary in EP2 fir Jessica's room. Ho...Kanon "killed" Jessica's love story. Even suit Beato says that "you betrayed her hope and harmed her badly". It could be a motive for Jessica to kill Kanon.

Of course I doubt anything. The only thing the fantasy-side is showing, is the characters true personalities. Like how Shannon only wanted George to tell her that he loves her before they were killed, or how she sacrificed herself, protecting Kanon, in ep 3. The scenes themselves can't be trusted, since they are not seen by the detective.

[Sniesk]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

What is your take about the fact that Beatrice couldn't repeat in red that the six FT victims of EP3 were all killed by other people?

So far the easiest explanation was: "Kinzo died of old age, so of course Beatrice couldn't repeat that."

uhm you're right, i forgot that. Well in that twilight it may still be something related to Kanon death if we want to take the hard way.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

What is your take about the fact that Beatrice couldn't repeat in red that the six FT victims of EP3 were all killed by other people?

So far the easiest explanation was: "Kinzo died of old age, so of course Beatrice couldn't repeat that."

You can be the cause of someone's death without killing them. I was quite careful in wording it that way for exactly that reason. If someone did "kill" Kinzo, it's very probable that it had nothing whatsoever to do with murdering him. Someone could have been indirectly responsible for his otherwise perfectly natural death.

But generally speaking, I agree with your explanation and suspect that is exactly why Beatrice wouldn't say it.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Sniesk

uhm you're right, i forgot that. Well in that twilight it may still be something related to Kanon death if we want to take the hard way.

I asked you this question because you have already stated that you don't support shkanon.

The idea that someone died of some kind of natural cause or accident just in the middle of the game is extremely improbable.

The probability increases greatly if someone died before the start of the game. We know that's the case with Kinzo. If you think Kinzo was killed, then you are only left with the theory that Kanon died of some natural cause or accident before the start of the game. But that inevitably leads to shkanon.

You can be the cause of someone's death without killing them. I was quite careful in wording it that way for exactly that reason. If someone did "kill" Kinzo, it's very probable that it had nothing whatsoever to do with murdering him. Someone could have been indirectly responsible for his otherwise perfectly natural death.

Beatrice wouldn't have failed to use that at her advantage if that was the case.

She would have said in red:

"no one died of natural causes."
"no one died because of an accident."

That would have been a totally perfect checkmate, Battler would have never thought about any kind of counter. He would have just thought that everyone including Kinzo was killed.

[Renall]

Not at all. Here's what I mean:

Someone's actions caused Kinzo to become more reclusive. Because he was more reclusive, his condition worsened sooner. But for becoming a shut-in, Kinzo may have lived longer. Because he died when he did instead of slightly later, various events occurred culminating in Oct. 5, 1986.

Kinzo was not killed, and still died of natural causes; however, someone's actions still created the present scenario.

It's similar to a legal doctrine called proximate cause. If I'm walking down the street and you swerve out of the road to avoid me, and are crushed by a train coming the other way, no one can say I killed you in red. I didn't kill you; the train killed you. I took no action of any kind. However, I was the cause of your death because, if I hadn't been there, you wouldn't have swerved, and the train wouldn't have killed you.

In this sense, someone can be "responsible for" a death, but have had nothing to do with the actual thing that killed the person.

[Oliver]

...incidentally, in one instance Nanjo seems to imply (open to interpretation) that Kinzo's full shut in started after Battler left.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Renall

Not at all. Here's what I mean:

Someone's actions caused Kinzo to become more reclusive. Because he was more reclusive, his condition worsened sooner. But for becoming a shut-in, Kinzo may have lived longer. Because he died when he did instead of slightly later, various events occurred culminating in Oct. 5, 1986.

Kinzo was not killed, and still died of natural causes; however, someone's actions still created the present scenario.

It's similar to a legal doctrine called proximate cause. If I'm walking down the street and you swerve out of the road to avoid me, and are crushed by a train coming the other way, no one can say I killed you in red. I didn't kill you; the train killed you. I took no action of any kind. However, I was the cause of your death because, if I hadn't been there, you wouldn't have swerved, and the train wouldn't have killed you.

In this sense, someone can be "responsible for" a death, but have had nothing to do with the actual thing that killed the person.

With this logic there would be no end to how many cause of deaths you can find.
According to the chaos theory and the butterfly effect I might have "caused" the death of thousands of people just by whistling when I was 4.

Anyway we were talking about the metaphorical meaning of the breaking of the mirror. This definitely implies a decision and a deliberate action. I can hardly see how this can be a metaphor of an indirect cause of death.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Anyway we were talking about the metaphorical meaning of the breaking of the mirror. This definitely implies a decision and a deliberate action. I can hardly see how this can be a metaphor of an indirect cause of death.

...telling Kinzo a lie that actually did him in.
That is, broke his will to hang on.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

With this logic there would be no end to how many cause of deaths you can find.
According to the chaos theory and the butterfly effect I might have "caused" the death of thousands of people just by whistling when I was 4.

Anyway we were talking about the metaphorical meaning of the breaking of the mirror. This definitely implies a decision and a deliberate action. I can hardly see how this can be a metaphor of an indirect cause of death.

That's why the law of proximate cause assigns a "but-for" standard to determining how far back you can actually stretch the chain of causation. It's not that important.

But as Oliver said, someone who lied to Kinzo, or said something to Kinzo, or revealed a truth to Kinzo, could "break his will to live," leading him to shut himself away and slowly die. This person didn't "kill" Kinzo, they may not have even been wanting him to die; but they were, in a sense, "responsible" for it.

[Disz]

I honestly refuse to believe this is an actual mirror.Also, I refuse to believe she killed someone.Responsible for someones death is a bit more believable, but I'm not buying it.I think it has something to do with her.She's talking about how she's going to break the times she was treated ill, and ''Beatrice'' persuades her to believe its a mirror she's supposed to break?First of all, if were all aware when Sayo claims to see ''Beatrice'', it's a fantasy scene.

So in her head,she thought to break the memories,she had to go to this old shrine, and break something.We just need to know what that ''something'' is, and is she literally, breaking it?

Also,are there any clues that shows she's done this in any other episode?

[Thunder Book]

IIRC something about the shrine is mentioned in the beginning of Episode 1.

[Laserworm]

Originally Posted by Disz

I honestly refuse to believe this is an actual mirror.Also, I refuse to believe she killed someone.Responsible for someones death is a bit more believable, but I'm not buying it.I think it has something to do with her.She's talking about how she's going to break the times she was treated ill, and ''Beatrice'' persuades her to believe its a mirror she's supposed to break?First of all, if were all aware when Sayo claims to see ''Beatrice'', it's a fantasy scene.

So in her head,she thought to break the memories,she had to go to this old shrine, and break something.We just need to know what that ''something'' is, and is she literally, breaking it?

Also,are there any clues that shows she's done this in any other episode?

This is just a thought but maybe the mirror stands for, her reflection. Breaking away from her old self.

[Disz]

I'll go with that for now.I'll keep reading and see what I come up with.

@ThunderBook: Do you know which chapter?I need to re read that.