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Old 2016-11-08, 16:47   Link #2681
ippus
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Once there, try look into that place where you dare not look. You will find me there donning that dress staring back at you...

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Kyaa~
My Kimochis.

Also for the sake of cheap relevance and because I feel like this encompasses how I feel right now...

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"Plot convenience" doesn't mean "Plot developments"
I want to highlight this to the ends of the Galaxy.
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Old 2016-11-08, 17:04   Link #2682
Tak
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Oh please Ippus...

YOU KNOW YOU WANT TO!

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Old 2016-11-08, 17:46   Link #2683
magnuskn
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Dude. (Because I'm a girl!)
I've called enough girls "Dude" before to not care a wit.

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Originally Posted by HirouKeimou View Post
None of your quote has anything to do with how Grace could know Ranka would choose abandoning the cockpit to talk to Ai-kun or if Ai-kun will capture her. This, again, is all a big plot convenience.
No, that is Grace using the situation as it developed to her advantage. I did not say that Grace knew what exactly would happen. But she did know that Ranka could communicate with the Vajra and so her and the cabal could make informed guesses and wait for a good opportunity.

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Originally Posted by HirouKeimou View Post
And again, I call bullshit on Grace knowing everything Ranka will do. Her gaining control over Ranka is a plot development which could have easily been done on Frontier, too; and eventually transported her to the Vajra Queen later on while she's brainwashed.
What has that to do with plot convenience? No, as I said above, Grace did not know exactly what Ranka would do, but she could make informed guesses and grab any opportunity to further her agenda, which she did.

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That's your opinion.
Yeah, that's kinda what everybody does here, express their opinions. For me, Isamu was a gigantic dick who I wanted to punch in his smug face every second he was on screen.

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Personally, I didn't believe Frontier did anything spectacular or refined at all; in fact, I could argue it's number of fillers did not help in this.
Well, that's just your opinion, man.

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Originally Posted by HirouKeimou View Post
I could see it coming from episode 12 on...?
I mean, from a viewer point of view, she is portraying a normal teenage girl who is directly involved in this war because of her connection to their enemy (regardless of contrived or not, meaning if said event could occur in real life). She basically is continuously questioning which side is right or wrong, and because she has no political power or physical ability to challenge their leaders on if this situation is right or wrong, she basically goes along with everything because it's all she can do (similar to how people do in real life). The choices she commits to in episode 21 are basically because she is utilizing what little power and freedom of speech she has in this war by abandoning Frontier and solving this on her own. She had no friends in the military who could listen to her (especially without Mishima knowing about it) once Ozma and Catherine are fugitives; and she did try to explain her reasoning to Alto, too (even if she didn't do it direct enough).
Yeah, not what I was talking about and I won't get into a discussion about the little traitors deeds in ep 21, I can already see that we'll both be wasting our time.

What I meant was her turnaround in suddenly making it all about Alto and forsaking her promise to sing for her home and friends, which led directly to the Vajra larva massacring thousands when she flipped her shit after seeing Sheryl and Alto embrace on that rooftop.

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Ironically, I had a little more trouble on her (or even Alto) not picking up on Grace's 180 from supporting her beloved Sheryl to supporting Ranka between episodes 15 and 16. That... should have raised eyebrows on any of the main characters, especially the main trio.
She was assigned by the government to do it, remember? Sheryl was in sickbed and out of action for most of that time.

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Ironically, on your bit of S.M.S. wishing to help Ranka and going to Galia 4, I could equally argue how S.M.S. more than likely did not know where the Vajra home planet is or if Ranka had gone to it (as in if she is there now). They also would be generally outnumbered if Ranka had not arrived to deliver her peace message to the Vajra prior so I'll consider this little sequence to be a very smart choice on their part (even if it is contrived for it all because Grace had no connection to Galaxy or Mishima during her time on Galia 4 so it again did not prove Mishima is a traitor for the other leaders).
AGAIN, they did not need to go to Gallia IV to prove Leon was a traitor, they needed information on Grace to connect her to Rankas backstory and Galaxy. Cathy getting the opportunity to accuse Leon directly to his face in front of the military leaders was enough to instantly flip them to her side.

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On Alto, no offense but prior to his chiming in, the leaders asked for a little proof that their accusation holds water. In other words, if Alto had not chimed in, S.M.S. basically would've gained nothing from all their findings because how could they shoot down Ranka not knowing if it's really her or not. It's Alto who revealed it's not; but if he'd died (which is a whole other shitload of bullshits for him not dying, meaning conveniences abundance here), S.M.S. is screwed on proving it unless they're willing to risk killing Ranka and jeopardizing their mission to communicate with the Vajra and gain peace...
Alto bailing out was pretty much what at least 75% of the board saw coming at the end of ep 24, so I don't know how you can call that a "plot convenience". Apparently that expression just means to you "plot developments I don't approve of", so I think I'll stop discussing with you about this after this post.

Yes, SMS did not gain all the information they needed to know everything. Why would they have to? They came with important information to Frontier, Alto was there to fill in the rest, the story makes sense. You can argue that things were fitting together very quickly in these last minutes of the show, but, well, nothing came out of nowhere and we are still making a comparison to the quality between Frontier and Delta.

How anyone can with a straight face make the argument that Frontier also was full of plot holes, I'll never understand. I won't try to say that they didn't rush it towards the end and that everything fit together perfectly, but in comparison to Delta, which is so full of plot holes, plot conveniences and abandoned plot elements that it resembles a swiss cheese with particularly many holes, yes, Frontier is much, much, much better.
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Old 2016-11-08, 19:09   Link #2684
Magewolf
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How anyone can with a straight face make the argument that Frontier also was full of plot holes, I'll never understand. I won't try to say that they didn't rush it towards the end and that everything fit together perfectly, but in comparison to Delta, which is so full of plot holes, plot conveniences and abandoned plot elements that it resembles a swiss cheese with particularly many holes, yes, Frontier is much, much, much better.
I think the difference is that they spent a lot of time of working on Frontier so it ended up polished, maybe too much. Delta on the other hand was very rough, indeed bits of it seemed like they were making it up as they went along.
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Old 2016-11-08, 19:53   Link #2685
HirouKeimou
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Gonna snip through a majority of this because your side doesn't justify plot convenience (i.e. something happens randomly, most times with absolute bullshit levels of luck, which pulls the plot along) over plot development (i.e. something which is foreshadowed or is relevant in the long run).

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Yeah, that's kinda what everybody does here, express their opinions. For me, Isamu was a gigantic dick who I wanted to punch in his smug face every second he was on screen.
Isamu begins off like a dick; however, his attitude changes once he'd been injured by Guld and especially once Myung visits him in the hospital and he learns about how his two prior friends have been on "living their dreams." His character development is smooth, because it's showing how he's become "disconnected" from his friends and prior life and eventually he learns he needs to "embrace" his old life because it's part of who he is.

That's kind of how Hayate goes, too. He begins off like a reckless idiot who believes he's "all that" until he is overpowered by Keith and witnesses Messar die. At which point, he gradually begins to accept how his role in Delta Squadron will play out and the price of failure. And, of course, adds into how he no longer "dances" during his battles. It's slow, gradual, and does not affect his personality (similar to Isamu) but it's there.

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Yeah, not what I was talking about and I won't get into a discussion about the little traitors deeds in ep 21, I can already see that we'll both be wasting our time.

What I meant was her turnaround in suddenly making it all about Alto and forsaking her promise to sing for her home and friends, which led directly to the Vajra larva massacring thousands when she flipped her shit after seeing Sheryl and Alto embrace on that rooftop.
Um, I was talking about this, too; although, I more of specified her connection to Mishima and Grace during episodes 16-19 ultimately affecting her character, especially once she'd been on the battlefield directly in episode 16 and witnessed how Frontier utilized her song for killing the Vajra.

And it's not so much on it's "all about Alto," it's more about how she chooses to sing for him because she knows nothing else to do. Her ideals (singing for her home and friends or so people could know "she is here") were buried by her duties to Frontier because her songs affected the Vajra for Frontier; from a business POV, even if she so-called realistically "quit" singing, all she'd do is doom Frontier and lose all her friends regardless. Her admitting she sang for Alto all along never disregarded her initial dream because he is the first person to listen to her song, encourage her, and is her friend. Her choosing to sing for him regardless of situation is more on her focusing on a singular goal so her mind is straight and her emotions level; it's like how doctors tell you to focus on something else while you're in pain as a distraction. She does it to a level which is really quite romantic (honestly is) but does cripple her a little bit in the end when it all comes crashing down later on.

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She was assigned by the government to do it, remember? Sheryl was in sickbed and out of action for most of that time.
I'm more of talking about how neither of the characters were concerned about how technically Grace never signed off from Sheryl and is now Ranka's manager. Regardless of how she obtained her position, no character raises an eyebrow at how she's so fine with this or how Ranka is suddenly important to Frontier for this war. The closest to it is Sheryl confronting Grace in episode 18; however, at that point, I'm raising bullshit vibes for Alto not raising a dozen questions after his smack down by Brera.

It's more along the lines of the characters disconnected from their own story for a bit. There's a big change and everyone molds to it without an issue for two or three episodes. And it's... baffling... because if there's one thing Frontier did do, it's showcase how big events concerned our main trio, especially; like Ranka leaving Frontier is given numerous showings of Alto panicking, cursing himself later on, and even shows Sheryl, Ozma, and Catherine seeing her go. This... did not happen with Grace becoming her manager; it's... accepted with no argument.

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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Alto bailing out was pretty much what at least 75% of the board saw coming at the end of ep 24, so I don't know how you can call that a "plot convenience". Apparently that expression just means to you "plot developments I don't approve of", so I think I'll stop discussing with you about this after this post.
...believing Alto could survive...

The dude is basically given a lucky ship to hide out in... and it's not there in his initial shot in episode 24 so again, I call bullshit. The fact he survives is definitely because of plot convenience because of course they didn't wish to kill off their MC right before the finale. And, of course, it'll come off really stupid in the end (and it does; thank god no one in Delta pulled this).

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How anyone can with a straight face make the argument that Frontier also was full of plot holes, I'll never understand. I won't try to say that they didn't rush it towards the end and that everything fit together perfectly, but in comparison to Delta, which is so full of plot holes, plot conveniences and abandoned plot elements that it resembles a swiss cheese with particularly many holes, yes, Frontier is much, much, much better.
Frontier drags like Delta does at points; regardless of your arguments, there are areas of Frontier which plain disconnected me from their main plot because it's so ridiculous, and while Delta has this, too (big massive hive mind thingy in episode 26), it's a little more restrained for a majority of the series. It's main focus is on direct conflict (meaning two nations or teams fighting each other) and is focusing less on an indirect conflict (third parties off-screen who raise hell like Galaxy did). How it closes off is not conclusive, I'll give you that, but it's more close to home on focusing on characters (even if not development for a bunch) and if time had been given to refine it a little more (keep hoping for a movie on this), you'd see it's not too much off from Frontier and drew numerous inspiration from both its good and bad aspects.
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Old 2016-11-08, 20:17   Link #2686
magnuskn
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Alright, this is going in circles. I'll leave off, since we won't get to any sort of agreement here.
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Old 2016-11-09, 10:42   Link #2687
HirouKeimou
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Alright, this is going in circles. I'll leave off, since we won't get to any sort of agreement here.
No, it's mainly because I don't share your view of Frontier in general; it's not that good in my eyes.

I don't believe Alto is a good protagonist, is aggravating to watch at times, and honestly hold Isamu above him because I could generally become invested in him more because he did something besides go into total "brood mode" whenever his self-esteem is questioned (ergo, dude literally spends an entire episode brooding over if he is a man or a woman! ).

And finally, Frontier and Delta share elements and events on such a level that it's nearly a direct copy at times. It's not only episode 26, and of course, since no one will dare go ahead and re-watch Delta (because you're going to claim you have a photographic memory which is obviously not true) you'll never see how similar their plot holes in Delta mirror ones in Frontier.

The only thing is, it's more noticeable in Delta because everyone randomly decided Frontier is the pinnacle of Macross and desired for Delta to erase those flaws (or in general any new Macross). Newsflash: Delta does nothing new for the franchise in terms of development overall, nor did Frontier do anything new because it directly parodied SDF-1 and DYRL at times. Unless Kawamori is willing to go in a completely new direction, not like Aquarion Logos but along the lines of abandoning a couple of Macross traits, Macross will not change period. Frontier is not better than Delta, especially its first half, and neither is Delta better than Frontier, especially its second half; both of them are basically not going to win against their predecessors, plain and simple, on the grander scale.
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Old 2016-11-09, 19:13   Link #2688
magnuskn
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Yeah, I disagree, but, again, not going to continue this, since we won't agree anyway.

And I won't watch Delta again because I was fucking disgusted by the show, not because of whatever you tried to say there.
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Old 2016-11-10, 16:55   Link #2689
BetoJR
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Jeez, not everyone - and I wouldn't even go so far as to say a majority of the fandom - consider Frontier the pinnacle of anything. I sure don't.

Now, Sheryl, on the other hand...
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Old 2017-03-06, 06:32   Link #2690
Yu Ominae
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This is previewed right now.

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/dai...return/.113052
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