[Manga] Naruto Chapter 588 Discussion

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

lol how silly.. you said it was madara's clone as if that implies madara didn't do it or something. I'm just saying that madara using a clone to put raikage in a genjutsu doesn't mean anything as a part of your argument. when naruto uses a clone to use rasen-shuriken it doesn't mean naruto didn't use the technique. it doesn't mean anything as far as this discussion goes. why even bring it up?

nope it's correct. just look at page 8 that I referenced. madara's clone was clearly using EMS not rinnegan

What is silly is your attempt to change your original statement once you've been proven wrong, you originally stated that Madara had activated EMS to put raikage in a genjutsu and then he reactivated the Rinnegan in order to use perfect Susano'o because you had not noticed that Madara was simply enjoying the sight and was taking no part in the fight against his clones.
Madara didn't switch between Doujutsu, he has kept the Rinnegan activated since the moment he showed that he had it. Your claim that this stage of Susanoo requires the Rinnegan is thus entirely baseless. It may be the case or it may only require the EMS. And if the final stage requires only the EMS, its sheer size may require the combination of Hashirama DNA to fuel the jutsu.
The point is you don't know. The manga hasn't told you the answer and you have no room to tell solidguy that he's ignoring the author when all he did was to disagree with your own assumption which was based on nothing but a fallacy.

I'm going to ignore the rest of your answer about Mokuton not being a Sharingan jutsu because you completely missed the point.

after checking the 4 arms thing, they did have 4 arms in the recent kabuto fight so you are right about that. the bottom line is that there is a difference in the artwork no matter how you want to argue it. perfect susano'o is not something we have seen before and the user has rinnegan, the most advanced, arguably perfect, form of sharingan.

And yet I don't see a shred of argument from you. Go ahead, tell me how the artwork and cloak of this Susanoo differ from Sasuke's. It has the same hands, the face is similarly hidden with only 2 glowing eyes visible and its cloak has the same jewel on the front above the same beak. As I said the two are incredibly similar, the only real difference is its size and its legs.

[Vindi89]

Originally Posted by 23 gundam fan

so she helped. its not as if she could have taken him on her own. she hasnt done nearly as much to slow down madara next to oonoki and the justu he has. he is the only one whose type of ninjustsu is brothersome to madara.(madara pretty much said that in this chapt)

If you can grasp the irony of your statement you'll actually understand the point being made here.

A fire needs oxygen, heat and fuel to burn. Remove any one of those elements and you have no fire. Without Tsunade Oonki would have been out at the beginning of the fight. The fact that Tsunade has been his battery so to speak is just as important as him firing off his 'bothersome' techniques. All the Kages pulled their weight in their own way and don't deserve to be discounted.

you noticed he didnt target tsunada.....hmm i wonder why.

I know he should totally waste his time attacking the one Kage that won't die during combat instead of the old Kage screaming I'm almost out of chakra.

[Hiking_Bear]

Originally Posted by 23 gundam fan

final point is the kaga cannot beat him and its all up to itachi period.

Although it seems like that's what is going to happen (since Itachi is about to end the Edo Tensei), I feel that it would make the kage's awesome battle seem kind of pointless. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the Madara Edo Tensei was special in that he can't be canceled by Itachi. Maybe Kabuto put in a fail-safe that requires Kabuto himself to cancel (or something to that effect).

This does seem like the last battle for Oonoki and I think it should be his last battle. He is the real powerhouse of the group, saving them from the meteor, the mokuton, and the susanoos. Tsunade runs a close second, since she's been healing everyone and feeding energy to Oonoki.

What I'd like to see is Tsunade use Shiki Fuujin (dead Demon Seal) to take herself and Madara into the Death God's belly. Considering every other hokage has ended up there (besides Danzo, who was really just a stand-in hokage), I think it would be a fitting end for Tsunade.

[Hunter]

I wouldn't be surprised if Kabuto managed to accept his destiny somehow (though maybe not with the same result that Itachi expected) and started delaying things until the Uchiha bros (read Itachi while Sasuke fangasm) finally end the ET.
Enough time for the Kages to suffer against a now serious Madara, Oonoki to sacrifice himself and Madara to get damaged enough to admit that they were worthy opponents who remind him of Hashirama blahblahblah.

Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay

I wonder what Sasuke would do if he knew what Naruto knowa about Tobi. Tobi is the one who tried to destroy Konoha with Kyuubi and let the Uchiha clan take the blame for his own deed. Itachi already told him that but Tobi lied and said it was a natural disaster.

What if that is all it takes to end Sasuke's genocidal bloodlust?

Why would it change anything? Sasuke told Tobi he didn't believe he had nothing to do with the Kyubi and that wouldn't change that Tobi confessed he participated in the massacre nor that Konoha ordered it.
It's not like Sasuke thinks of Tobi as an ally, much like with Oro he just took what he wanted until he was ready to kill him. The first thing he did after getting used to his new set of eyes was burn alive the original White Zetsu as he promised him to do if he were to betray him at the Kahe summit.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by 23 gundam fan

so she helped. its not as if she could have taken him on her own. she hasnt done nearly as much to slow down madara next to oonoki and the justu he has. he is the only one whose type of ninjustsu is brothersome to madara.(madara pretty much said that in this chapt) you noticed he didnt target tsunada.....hmm i wonder why.

Maybe you never played team based rpg or fps games, if you get the healer of the other team they are done for. After the healer is dead the other team will slowly lose health and die even if they were as strong or ever stronger than your team. Tsunade has healed her team many times already, remember that when she teleported to the place Oonoki was already half dead. Oonoki is the damage dealing guy of the team, but he is not more important than Tsunade.


Why are all these posts about "perfect susanoo" being stronger than any susano form seen until now? We have seen many strong forms, and only Itachi's seemed godlike until now. Itachi's was the strongest until now if we count the yata mirror and the sword part of it. It's crazy strong, it can reflect any damage (Tsunade's taijutsu, Oonoki's beams, etc.) and it can seal the soul of super ninja easily (Orochimaru and Edo-Nagato beaten with one hit). And Itachi didn't even have the EMS. We had a glimpse of Sasuke's, but the author didn't allow Sasuke to use it, also Kakashi was kinda scared of it, so that means it must be very strong, probably the so called "perfect form". Until now i was definitely not impressed with Edo-Madara's susano, while Itachi's susano was able to save him from the Kirin which is the power of the nature itself, we saw that Madara's susano couldn't defend him against the kages and Naruto, he was forced to use his rinnegan and also his ET regeneration several times already. The only susano move that was impressive was that double hand-seal double-meteor jutsu (if i'm not mistaken the meteors were summoned by using the susano somehow). The only question is if Itachi's 2 weapons are part of the susano or he found those somewhere and added to susano.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear

Although it seems like that's what is going to happen (since Itachi is about to end the Edo Tensei), I feel that it would make the kage's awesome battle seem kind of pointless. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the Madara Edo Tensei was special in that he can't be canceled by Itachi. Maybe Kabuto put in a fail-safe that requires Kabuto himself to cancel (or something to that effect).

I'm expecting something similar. Either Tobi will have somehow intervened or Madara will be able to use the Rinnegan with its powers over life and death to somehow resist the ending of the technique.

[23 gundam fan]

Originally Posted by Vindi89

If you can grasp the irony of your statement you'll actually understand the point being made here.

A fire needs oxygen, heat and fuel to burn. Remove any one of those elements and you have no fire. Without Tsunade Oonki would have been out at the beginning of the fight. The fact that Tsunade has been his battery so to speak is just as important as him firing off his 'bothersome' techniques. All the Kages pulled their weight in their own way and don't deserve to be discounted.





I know he should totally waste his time attacking the one Kage that won't die during combat instead of the old Kage screaming I'm almost out of chakra.

i did say she helped. dont give me this stuff about tsunade being the one kaga that wont die. there is no such thing,( kakuza anyone) and we are suppose to believe the most powerful uchiha with the ems rinnagan and the first hokage cells cannot kill her. give me a break, if thats the case why is she not the most powerful ninja in the world then. we all know kish has made statements and ignored them later. itachi said himself every jutsu has a weakness. i take that statement as fact and for the most part that has been proven in this manga.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Hunter

What is silly is your attempt to change your original statement once you've been proven wrong, you originally stated that Madara had activated EMS to put raikage in a genjutsu and then he reactivated the Rinnegan in order to use perfect Susano'o because you had not noticed that Madara was simply enjoying the sight and was taking no part in the fight against his clones.
Madara didn't switch between Doujutsu, he has kept the Rinnegan activated since the moment he showed that he had it.

you missed my point about the middle panel of the last page. the artwork suggests madara is using rinnegan. that's how kishi depicts techniques being used, with those speed lines or whatever you want to call them. perhaps I used the wrong word in 'activate' but I'm aware madara has had rinnegan this whole time... my point has always been that he used it to make perfect susano'o. 'activate' just means to make active after all. while madara was watching his clones fight, he wasn't active

I'm going to ignore the rest of your answer about Mokuton not being a Sharingan jutsu because you completely missed the point.

then I'll just assume it was pointless to begin with

And yet I don't see a shred of argument from you. Go ahead, tell me how the artwork and cloak of this Susanoo differ from Sasuke's. It has the same hands, the face is similarly hidden with only 2 glowing eyes visible and its cloak has the same jewel on the front above the same beak. As I said the two are incredibly similar, the only real difference is its size and its legs.

and thus a difference in artwork...

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by james0246

I'm expecting something similar. Either Tobi will have somehow intervened or Madara will be able to use the Rinnegan with its powers over life and death to somehow resist the ending of the technique.

There are characters in the story who just can't be wrong, one of them is Itachi, i don't think that Madara will be able to pull a baron Münchhausen on his own soul, that would be ridiculous Another reason is that Madara doesn't seem to be fit to be the final villain, he is a too simple character, his only wish is to fight and kill, Tobi is definitely more interesting. If Tobi could somehow merge with Madara and become the final villain that would be cool. If Madara is now pulled back to the death by Itachi that still does not mean that it's over, as Madara said the original plan was to bring him back to life in a different way, and Tobi now the rinnegan to bring him back, or he could even bring him back with Edo Tensei since he learned that from Kabuto. Maybe the "perfection" that Tobi was talking about meant that he wanted to somehow merge with Madara and with Hashirama's cells and become the host of the demons too. It would be similar to Cell's plan in DBZ, he also had to hide and run away in different situations until he finally became "perfect". So i bet on Tobi to be the final villain, Madara would be too boring.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

you missed my point about the middle panel of the last page. the artwork suggests madara is using rinnegan. that's how kishi depicts techniques being used, with those speed lines or whatever you want to call them. perhaps I used the wrong word in 'activate' but I'm aware madara has had rinnegan this whole time... my point has always been that he used it to make perfect susano'o. 'activate' just means to make active after all. while madara was watching his clones fight, he wasn't active

Since that wasn't what I was answering to I fail to see how I could have missed this point, or have we reached the no you! part of an argument? But oh well I'll bite.
Speed lines are indeed used to indicate movements, speed, impact or more generally to highlight the main focus in a panel. An example of what you're talking about can be found in this very chapter page 8 which offer a clear difference with the last page where the lines do not focus on Madara's eye but rather run parallel to his face in order to give the impression of a great building power. They are there to highlight the apparition of Susanoo and there is no particular focus on his eye (which is something of note I guess considering Kishimoto's obsession with them). So at this point the only thing you told me was that when Madara did something the author draw his face to which I'd answer : duh.

and thus a difference in artwork...

If I was mean spirited (heh who am I kidding) I would now ask you about the artwork of those legs that Kishimoto didn't even draw and what does the relative size of an object have to do with its artwork but at this point I feel like I'm pouring water on a drowning man so I'll leave it at that.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Hunter

If I was mean spirited (heh who am I kidding) I would now ask you about the artwork of those legs that Kishimoto didn't even draw and what does the relative size of an object have to do with its artwork but at this point I feel like I'm pouring water on a drowning man so I'll leave it at that.

all the susano'o forms look similar, perfect susano'o is no exception. you admitted there is a difference in artwork and I hope we agree that it would be anti-climactic for this perfect susano'o to be equal to what we've already seen. I take it you're pouring water on yourself then?

[Hunter]

I have in no uncertain terms showed that the artwork of Sasuke and Madara's Susanoo is virtually the same, size isn't a difference in artwork. This Susanoo could be two km or twenty cm high and it wouldn't change how it looks nor the way it's drawn.
And no, all Susanoo forms do not look similar. From partial aura, to ribcages, to armored and cloaked they are all distinctively different. Even the fully cloaked kind can be dissimilar : Itachi's Susanoo is the humanoid kind of Tengu whereas Sasuke and Madara's are the oldest bird-like representation.
Then equal to what we've already seen? Are you talking about power here? Why would you even bring that up when it has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand?

edit: I think we've said all we had to say on the subject and even a bit more than necessary on my part so this will be my last post on the subject itachi-san314. Have a nice day.

[Kowai]

Kishi got lazy with the susanoo artwork, they look like the zetsu =/

Where does madara stand? in their stomach?

[hamstar]

1. raikage's plot armour is so thick that he managed to survive when he could of easily been crushed in the palm of susanoo (we've already seen Sasuke crush danzou this way). I know this is a shounen but it still is disappointing to see things like that. Mizukage should also be dead on impact after taking a direct hit..

2. Just to comment on Edo Tensei and it's weakness. Am I the only one that thinks that the jutsu has an obvious weakness? I'm thinking that everything Kabuto and Oro said was a lie and that killing the jutsu castor will actually disable edo tensei. The lie was created deliberately to focus everyone's attention on fighting immortal zombie's in an attempt to spare the user from harm. I think we will find out next chapter whether this is true or not seeing how Kabuto is going to speak the truth on this in the coming chapters. We might even find out that this was what sasuke's friends discovered in the scroll in Kabuto's hide out.

[Vindi89]

Originally Posted by 23 gundam fan

i did say she helped. dont give me this stuff about tsunade being the one kaga that wont die. there is no such thing,( kakuza anyone) and we are suppose to believe the most powerful uchiha with the ems rinnagan and the first hokage cells cannot kill her. give me a break, if thats the case why is she not the most powerful ninja in the world then. we all know kish has made statements and ignored them later. itachi said himself every jutsu has a weakness. i take that statement as fact and for the most part that has been proven in this manga.

Quit disecting my sentences and actually read the meaning behind them. You're going off on a complete different tangent here. I've already lost interest. Some of the other Forum-goers have already made my point as well so I won't continue this.

[prakash123]

Originally Posted by solidguy

Madara still used susanoo with rinnengan. There is no need to use sharingan to use imperfect susanoo. So to say that this is different from itachi's/sasuke's because he used rinnengan is flawed as there is no direct corrolation between a rinnengan specific technique and susanoo. Also it does go quite well with the tension built. Itachi at his peak was considered invincible with the ultimate offence and ultimate defence in the form of the yata mirror and the totsuka (sp?) sword. Itachi does not have elbow room to grow and so this is his 'perfect form'. Plus you cannot ignore the character design similarities with the hooded and small gleaming eyes that both susanoo possess. A trait even sasukes final susanoo has in common. What i think kishi meant when he said stated perfect form at the end wasnt a declaration of a new technique but a declaration that Madara is giving it his all.

That and Sasuke already stated that Itachi was perfect. You cant argue with the sauce.

yea totally agreed..they are just using their perfected susanoo forms in ways they have perfected it thats all.i doubt they is some kind of pefect susanoo.its just that maybe madara pefected his with a rinnegan.

[Rurik]

@Hunter you are getting soft at your old age, you remind me a lot of the Tsuchikage

Well after almost 2 years of not following this manga I decided to go and get myself updated, hopefully, I will stick around until the end.
Anyways, Itachis explanation on Izanami was really confusing for me, and more when the name of the other Jutus Izanagi looks similar. also perfect Susanoo looks to me that is just the same as Sasuke and Itachi's Susanoo in their last stage.

[Dengar]

You know I've been wondering?

Why are people treating the sharingan and the rinnegan as two separate things? Isn't the sharingan merely a devolved rinnegan?

[james0246]

589 Discussion thread has been opened. Please move all relevant discussions to the new thread.