Macross Delta - Episode 23 Discussion / Poll

[Ura-dora]

Very interesting episode. Things went in the direction I thought it would, especially with Roid and Mikumo. The ambitions of Roid are slowly driving him crazy.

Delta has some very good idea's, however it's suffering from lack of concrete thought. Sometimes I feel like there are two shows combined into one. The first show is a love triangle, with resonating and flying as the key components (with Freyja, Hayate, and Mirage as the main characters). The second show is basically everything else, with singing, action etc. Mikumo is the main character of the second show, which takes a backseat most of the time.

[Kazu-kun]

They really should have made a separate thing centered fully on Mikumo. Maybe a movie. Her story is the most interesting element of the show but doesn't get nearly enough attention.

[Mistyclear]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

They really should have made a separate thing centered fully on Mikumo. Maybe a movie. Her story is the most interesting element of the show but doesn't get nearly enough attention.

I agree they definitely need to make a movie surrounding her and her past.

[Random14]

Sometimes I wonder if the main triangle should have been Freyja, Hayate and Mikumo. I like Mirage a lot, but she's a lost cause by now (not enough screen time or character development to really justify a victory). But then that might have come off as a rehash of Frontier's Sheryl and Ranka, but Frontier worked much better than Delta because of that tighter focus too.

I agree with the sentiment that Delta seems like two shows forced together. Or rather that just goes to how disconnected most of the plots have been. You had the triangle (with Mirage mostly irrelevant), the whole war and Walkure and Mikumo and VAR plot, and with a major Aerial Knights subplot taking up a lot of screentime too. Even with 26 episodes, it doesn't seem like much has been accomplished.

I know the timing is probably off, but it would be funny/ironic if Roid also "helped" Hayate's father on his way. Either that or Gramia killed him after the explosion, only for Gramia to be killed by Roid in the same way, something like that. But guess that all depends on just what exactly happened to Hayate's father. We have the Windermere version, but I doubt its truly accurate or complete.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

They really should have made a separate thing centered fully on Mikumo. Maybe a movie. Her story is the most interesting element of the show but doesn't get nearly enough attention.

Delta decided to portray most characters as being unrelated to each other. Usually with fantasy stories, in order to tie everything together, everyone is at least slightly related to each other. This went to the extremes with Star Wars, what with having C3PO being created by Darth Vader of all people.

And yet, silly as it might be, having everyone related means less loose ends.

Delta, being more realistic in some ways, cause the Windereme war to end up having no connections formed between the Chaos side and the Windermere Knights side. Neither knows each other personally.(not for the main cast anyway) This meant even though they are enemies, their plot just don't intertwine. Even the claim that the MC's father dropped a bomb in the previous conflict is a weak connection at best.

I guess what I am saying, is that Delta suffers from too much realism. And that story telling really is harder if you don't allow more crossover of interpersonal relationships. Mikumo has an interesting background but by having Lady M being an enigma, we have no way of linking her with anyone else.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Delta, being more realistic in some ways, cause the Windereme war to end up having no connections formed between the Chaos side and the Windermere Knights side. Neither knows each other personally.(not for the main cast anyway) This meant even though they are enemies, their plot just don't intertwine. Even the claim that the MC's father dropped a bomb in the previous conflict is a weak connection at best.

Well, I think it's fairly obvious Hayate's father also gave Freyja that music player, starting her journey (I'll be shocked if he didn't to be honest). And that is Windermere fold quartz Hayate has from his father, possibly he purchased it from the twins (who are selling those pendants in the manga). Unfortunately, the anime decided to ignore the twins' existences in general.

They are the only knights we don't even know their motivations in this. We know they are merchants, they are both kind of trolls who pick on everyone (including Keith) when they actually have screentime, that they objected Roid's Var strategy first and one is engaged. That's it. We don't know why they agreed with Roid in his plan. I get why Keith, Cassim and Herman were against it, and why Bogue was so easily in, but the twins' motivations escape me. Keith's a sense of duty of "never again" that makes him destroy his feelings and focus singlehandedly on this mission for Windermere. Cassim wanted to protect his son's future. Herman's probably similar to Cassim's. Bogue's revenge for his dead family but the twins want... er ?

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

That last scene... Doesn't it look like Roid is into bondage, but got into it really recently?

He has to spice his hobbies, buying idol merchandise and collecting glasses doesn't cut it anymore.

[Wandering Soul]

Roid does realize that they are more sensible ways to restrain Mikumo, right? I'm pretty sure a pair of handcuffs would get the job done.

[charles883]

If those music player Frejya are truly received from Hayate father, why I get the feeling that it contain evidence or video of what truly happen in Dimensional bomb dropping.

[Thess]

Well, I think he gave it to her before he was called on a war duty. She's singing with it when they are all relatively at peace, you know?

If there's anything to be found out, it'll be Arad and Kaname who stumble over it now they are in a NUNS abandoned headquarters, IMO.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Wandering Soul

Roid does realize that they are more sensible ways to restrain Mikumo, right? I'm pretty sure a pair of handcuffs would get the job done.

Where are his minions, anyway? Are we suppose to believe that Roid is researching the ruins all by himself? At least with Grace of Frontier she had the excuse of robot automation. Is Delta trying to pretend Roid is the only one who is evil and that absolutely no one else in the government had anything to do with his plans?

[Mistyclear]

The sea spiders look truly disgusting, I couldn't imagine eating them .

[stray]

So like... is there any chance there's a season 2 hiding somewhere? Maybe the pacing isn't that bad if the series was intended to be as long as Macross 7... How are they going to pull kawaii Mikumo on us now? And... hold on, Freyja realizes Mirage exists?

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by stray

And... hold on, Freyja realizes Mirage exists?

This has been one of my issues since episode 14.

She saves Freyja in episode 13 and she expresses gratitude for it in episode 14. However, no significant interaction for them has been established since episode 14. I mean, in episode 20, it's more of a triangular discussion because a) it's about all three members of the triangle and b) it's more of Mirage yelling off her feelings about their issues than a "conversation" (especially because neither Freyja nor Hayate are given a second to respond). There has been no established conversation for only Mirage and Freyja since episode 14 and I believe it's one of the serious reasons I disbelieve in their "friendship".

-

Subs are out so I'll resolve some of the things I did inquire about from the raw:

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Now, I don't mind this plot device coming out like so, what I do take issue with is: Considering how dimensional bombs go, how does Wright's plane not sustain any real damage from the explosion? How did anyone even grab his plane? How did he die? I'm really feeling an inconsistency that I hope the subs will clear up here because I don't know how anyone on Windermere a) killed Wright because his plane is in perfect condition, b) because of prior plane condition, captured him, and c) if he turned himself in (which is logical given his plane is okay), why it's never brought up.

All bold areas are ones solved by the subs...

Even though a bit of this is explained via subs, I'm still taking issue with: How did he die (it's never explained, mind you, if the explosion of the dimensional weapon killed him)? How in the world did anyone grab his plane and/or find its wreckage? And how is Windermere so positive he dropped the dimensional weapon? I'm curious to know how one could positively ID if a plane dropped a bomb. Even if it is, where is our motive? Others on the board have said it: He was in the Windermere Independence faction so why did he drop it on a NUNS base knowing it'd kill hundreds or thousands of civilians too?

Again, I'm discovering so many plot holes in this Wright case. And it's painful because it's been built up for a while and an emotional build for Hayate and it's coming out... horribly. This is one time where bad writing is painfully obvious.

[Mistyclear]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

This has been one of my issues since episode 14.

She saves Freyja in episode 13 and she expresses gratitude for it in episode 14. However, no significant interaction for them has been established since episode 14. I mean, in episode 20, it's more of a triangular discussion because a) it's about all three members of the triangle and b) it's more of Mirage yelling off her feelings about their issues than a "conversation" (especially because neither Freyja nor Hayate are given a second to respond). There has been no established conversation for only Mirage and Freyja since episode 14 and I believe it's one of the serious reasons I disbelieve in their "friendship".

-

Subs are out so I'll resolve some of the things I did inquire about from the raw:



All bold areas are ones solved by the subs...

Even though a bit of this is explained via subs, I'm still taking issue with: How did he die (it's never explained, mind you, if the explosion of the dimensional weapon killed him)? How in the world did anyone grab his plane and/or find its wreckage? And how is Windermere so positive he dropped the dimensional weapon? I'm curious to know how one could positively ID if a plane dropped a bomb. Even if it is, where is our motive? Others on the board have said it: He was in the Windermere Independence faction so why did he drop it on a NUNS base knowing it'd kill hundreds or thousands of civilians too?

Again, I'm discovering so many plot holes in this Wright case. And it's painful because it's been built up for a while and an emotional build for Hayate and it's coming out... horribly. This is one time where bad writing is painfully obvious.

Quite a few of those have supposedly already been answered though....
For example how'd they know about which plane dropped the bomb...you saw the video plus he was being pursued by the Windermerians including the late White Knight (who could have been the one sending the video) plus Keith himself though he was up high enough to escape the blast radius.

As for being on the side of Windermere but still setting off the bomb, Arad also answered that when he stated a member of their rebellion contacted Wright and told him set it off (now whether this is true or not is something else, as far as Arad knows this is the truth--but the actual truth has yet to be revealed so ).
Also I imagine that yeah the blast is what caused the plane to crash resulting in his death, the bomb would have caused a great deal of turbulence and Windermere is full of mountains, such a combination would make for an easy crash. As for how the tracked his plane-- that's something we can do at this day and age so it's not at all surprising that they found the wreckage.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Where are his minions, anyway? Are we suppose to believe that Roid is researching the ruins all by himself? At least with Grace of Frontier she had the excuse of robot automation. Is Delta trying to pretend Roid is the only one who is evil and that absolutely no one else in the government had anything to do with his plans?

Roid's family was in charge of looking after the ruins, iirc. It was some kind of 'priest-ly' function/bloodline.

No, there's Roid, Epsilon, and those shady NUNS guys who are napping until they are called for duty again (maybe Lady M too? Who we don't know anything about ). They play stereotypical villain ball to strike out a cliché out the laundry list: Roid is the intellectual idealistic guy who starts with good intentions and loses his way because ambition/goals consuming him, those four NUNS guys are the archetypical greedy imperialistic corrupted forces in a big organization without regard for anyone except for their own greed, Epsilon are the opportunistic folks who would profit from combat and are interested in perpetuating it because they get to sell weapons. Lady M and Chaos are not off the hook after that ridiculous plotline introduced episodes ago, but it could lead to Mikumo, as a brainwashed and controlled singer-variant of antagonist (like Big Ranka in Frontier TV). Roid has help, Epsilon's help. When people aren't doing what Roid wants of them, he removes them of their position (what happened to the doctor, for example).

Anyway, Windermere has a monarchy/feudal structure. This was sufficiently displayed, but maybe some bits had a shoddy execution (frankly speaking, I do prefer the novel in general to get the gist). The one with authority is the king and the Prime Minister/Vizir role which is Roid, as the Holy Knight. The only way Keith defied Roid's orders was because he was given a leeway by his brother and Gramia, plus he beat him in a duel, it's all fairly old styled. All armies except White Knight squad are under Roid's control (even then, Roid told Keith to return and he complied many many times before they had their first fall out). Gramia is already dead, killed by Roid ( what a busy bee!), and Heinz is a nine years old who until an episode ago thought his input didn't matter and he was better off dying for his people and being alone and unhappy. Roid multitasks! The thing is that Delta is pushing Roid-or-Keith angle, who will Heinz listen? The 'triangle' that's probably more important than the romantic one in terms of plot resolution, IMO. I think I said in earlier threads that the Roid-Keith dichotomy was cliché as hell in presentation: the one who looks nice and reasonable will turn out to be corrupted, and the other one is an ass but he's just rightfully angry and concerned and, despite his actions and words, he's actually got to heart in the right place. Novelty cliché colors too, Keith with his anti hero black and Roid with his villainous white. Eyeroll. It's all about what is the best future for Windermere: have their free sky or control the skies of all galaxy. That's the divergence between Keith and Roid.

Keith isn't interested in conquest, he's only looking for freedom (in a way, he's no different from Hayate, but a Hayate who was embiterred so he lost his carefreeness). Sadly, the anime isn't bothering to establish their parallels like the other media which would have greatly helped Hayate to be a stronger main character (I love his personality, but he really seems floating around plot wise).

Again, the problem lies that all this seems hastily connected to Chaos and Hayate, despite the scriptwriter's best intentions. Because, really, are Hayate, Freyja, etc all that necessary to solve this? Mikumo, maybe, because the star singer stuff will likely be the official breakup between Roid and Keith. Why wasn't this overhauled with Keith/Mikumo/Roid as love triangle instead? Because I'll be honest, it seems the actual key of the main plot are with them and Heinz, and not with Hayate, Freyja or Mirage. As much as I prefer Hayate, Freyja as main characters, it's just my impression. Sure, this can change, but I'm just voicing a frustration that's been annoying be for a while.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Others on the board have said it: He was in the Windermere Independence faction so why did he drop it on a NUNS base knowing it'd kill hundreds or thousands of civilians too?

Simple. Someone decided that the best way to give Winderemere their independence is by destroying the base with the bomb.

And to do that, they used a Human pilot who could be blamed for working with NUNs, so the civilian deaths could be blamed on NUNs.

The result is Windermere got their independence, and the civilians get their outrage against NUNs which is useful for justifying the next war.

From the prospective of the Windereme government, it is win-win to kill these civilians.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Mistyclear

For example how'd they know about which plane dropped the bomb...you saw the video plus he was being pursued by the Windermerians including the late White Knight (who could have been the one sending the video) plus Keith himself though he was up high enough to escape the blast radius.

Um... NUNS covered up all the information regarding this incident and considering Windermere showcased it, I'm less inclined to believe their side at this point given a) how Gramia rebuilt said wreckage as a continuous reminder of a sin which is never proven on both sides and b) how Roid is using it to encourage the Aerial Knights into action (including Keith, and especially Bogue).

There are two sides to this story and while Windermere could be right, I also argue the other side is untold.

Originally Posted by Mistyclear

As for being on the side of Windermere but still setting off the bomb, Arad also answered that when he stated a member of their rebellion contacted Wright and told him set it of (now whether this is true or not is something else).

All your post is explaining is where he a) received the bomb and b) decided to do with it. Again, what is his motive for doing this!? All we know is he receives a dimensional weapon, drops it on a NUNS base, and kills hundreds or thousands of civilians in the process. It's all we're given because he's dead. You're arguing it's his motive but it's really not. A motive is where he believed he'd be doing something for a grander picture and/or for personal gain and I argue he does not gain a thing for this. In fact, I argue he's ruining his son's life and relationship with Freyja because he did it (even if he didn't know it would be so bad), and oh yes is ruining millions of civilizations because this bomb incident became a catalyst for Windermere to begin a universal war with every other civilization in the universe which is under NUNS protection/law.

Originally Posted by Mistyclear

Also I imagine that yeah the blast is what caused the plane to crash resulting in his death, the bomb would have caused a great deal of turbulence and Windermere is full of mountains, such a combination would make for an easy crash. As for how the tracked his plane-- that's something we can do at this day and age so it's not at all surprising that they found the wreckage.

I'll agree on it possibly being how his plane crashed; dimensional bombs and/or even nuclear ones in real life cause all kinds of issues for escaping impact.

However, I'll argue even if they did find his wreckage, how could Windermere identify it? It's not one of their planes so it'd be a question of how their system could identify this plane and in its state of wreckage be rebuilt so it's like it's so-called "original version". It's a mass produced Valkyrie which is built specifically for NUNS soldiers; so I don't believe this is the original plane belonging to Wright. This is my logic because Arad and Kaname are on a NUNS base in this episode and it's completely bare and no military during an "abandon ship escapade" will ever grab all of their units and/or weaponry. In other words, this could be a Valkyrie grabbed on the abandoned base which resembled his Valkyrie. Again, it'd be logical: Why spend money and/or resources you don't really have on rebuilding something which is a continuous reminder of why Windermere has so little when you could take a Valkyrie from the base and claim it's the one from that time? Less time and money and resources.

I'll believe his body is found in the cockpit of the original wreckage though.

It's not that I'm arguing your interpretation of this is wrong, it's just there's a lot of facts up in the air on this subplot.

I'm not likely to believe either side at this point because NUNS cares little about their soldiers and hides screw-ups entirely for their own reputation and Windermere only wishes for revenge so screwing around with truths could benefit them in both grabbing their peoples' support and also gaining attention from the NUNS by bringing up a screw-up they buried which affected their reputation.

@Vallen_Chaos_Valiant: The problem with said motive is the whole point of the Windermere independence is to not be associated with NUNS at all, not begin World War III in space with other civilizations which had nothing to do with Windermere at all! This, of course, is something implied in episode 17. After all, if dropping a bomb on Windermere will spur all of Windermere to needlessly attack every species in the world and/or mind control them for so-called "independence" then this is not so much a logical motive since the endgame of said motive is against everything the Independence Force stood for (releasing Windermere from NUNS and peacefully resolving the conflict so Windermere is able to live in peace again).

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Simple. Someone decided that the best way to give Winderemere their independence is by destroying the base with the bomb.

And to do that, they used a Human pilot who could be blamed for working with NUNs, so the civilian deaths could be blamed on NUNs.

The result is Windermere got their independence, and the civilians get their outrage against NUNs which is useful for justifying the next war.

From the prospective of the Windereme government, it is win-win to kill these civilians.

They didn't do it. a) Gramia, the king, has a complete disgust at the mere idea of turning their weapons against their own people and their earth. It's one of his basic personality traits. b) Their best pilots died trying to stop the mysterious bomber, that includes the people who were second in command after the king who had no idea who the hell was in that VF. c) Keith is really really pissed off and nearly died during that incident too. That made him turn from Windermere Hayate to cool aloof guy.

You're forgetting the side that actually won something by dropping that bomb? Epsilon. If Windermere hadn't been angry after the bomb incident and won their independence because of Wright help, do you think they'll give a damn about investigating ruins and continuing wars? Nope. Who loses? The guys who are using them to research the ruins and selling them goods in exchange of that sweeeet rare fold quartz. Also, those weapons they sold? They had the Anti UN serial numbering, you know. In Windermere perspective, they didn't win their independence yet, that's why they started this conflict in the first place. So no, dropping that bomb wouldn't accomplish anything they wanted. The one who dropped the bomb, unless it was a stupid incident because he was accidentally varred because of some apple he ate (hey, it could happen!), wanted to make Windermere people angry and make them live in fear they wouldn't be free, IMO. Because that bomb meant they wouldn't trust the NUNS words of leaving them alone (proved again by NUNS framing them knowing that bomb was theirs! Plus putting an embargo) and moved them to take the actions they have.

That bomb moved Cassim into thinking that for his son to have a future, he had to fight as an Aerial Knight. It wasn't just the people pissed off and wanting revenge like Bogue (who is a dumb teen), but actual sound, reasonable adults who feared for their loved ones who hate fighting to boot.

Of course, it could have been Roid, but he was too young and, iirc, his 'corruption' process is supposedly new (he lost the sight of his goal within the series, etc). So I'm leaning on Epsilon (or freak accident). Or a combination of the two: Epsilon sabotaging Wright by making him sick with Var.

[Diluc]

Originally Posted by Falulu hime

The scene in which Freya sang in front of the crater / hole was my favorite. While volatile nature of Bogue did not intervene. I knew he was such a character, but it probably was not fair to Freya. Of course Roid was on the side of Bogue.
In this episode Mikumo was so sweet at times showed so innocent expressions. Selfless, courageous. While naturally Roid did not catch her.
Ignorance all are waiting to find out who will choose Hаyatе. From the beginning of the season. But I am curious with who will be Mikumо. She will not be with Hаyatе. I have no desire love triangle turn into a square / rectangle.
I know Mikumo still maturing. But it is possible right now for someone to win her heart. I have someone in mind, but it not Roid.
I want to hear your suggestions.

Probably with Keith will go to rescue her due of current circumstance, it will be great if Mikumo x Keith will happen their pairing are equivalent to Jessica x Max.
Aaaaaand when Mikumo x Keith happen that is the day where none any fans will give damn to Delta main triangle anymore.
i believe Roid confirmed as main villain in Delta now that left question for Berger the wild card. I got feeling Kawamori want to establish Epsilon Fondation as Macross primary villain with how lack info we have about them, this treatment remind me with Ouroboros from kiseki series.
Ouroboros infamous for being mastermind in every kiseki series, this what Epsilon will be. That to being said we will see "Epsilon Foundation" again in next series and another next series again where they will play as "mastermind' in every Macross incident.

[Thess]

Pfff. JUNNA wishes because Keith is her favorite and she always gushes about him. But I don't think either Mikumo or Keith are interested in romance, both have bigger stuff to deal with and there's only three episodes left. Mikumo's storyarc seems to be about connecting with Walkure to humanize her and Keith with his brother. Admitably, if Delta were overhauled to focus on an actual plot related love triangle, it would be Roid/Mikumo/Keith, IMO. Because those are so far the only characters with Heinz with some plot weight...

Yeah... the writing has been so bad for the actual main characters because they feel like guest stars lately.