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Old 2015-03-10, 18:06   Link #34921
Inbuiltx9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
What's the difference between 'Kanon' and 'Sayo acting as Kanon'? They're the same being. Yasu didn't actually have dissociative identities.
The difference is that it is possible for Beato to state a red truth where Kanon is dead and Shannon is still running around alive, or where Beatos states that Shannon is dead and Kanon is still around. They have the same body, yet they count as different personalities. Whats going on in her head is irrelevant in this case. The third personality that can be alive even if Shannon and Kanon are dead is Sayo- thats why in the manga Battler can say Shannon and Kanon didnt call Natsuhi in Ep 5, to what Erika answers "its the same as with ther murder of Nanjo"

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
You only get declared dead after 7 years if it's a missing person's case. Considering Ange had a lot of money and connections to the mob, she can probably get herself declared dead immediately.

And 'Ushiromiya Ange' was declared dead; she's living under a pseudonym and she was amazed and frightened when Ikuko recognized her as Ange.
Like I said, it is possbile to see it that way, but there was nothing that hinted at that. I doubt she could even, because that relates to laws in Japan as a whole, even if she could do it, since she left everything to the the company I dont know where her connections would come from. Yes of course, Okonogi could have arranged everything, but there is never mentioned anything at all that hints at that. we only have the red truth that she died.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Uh...EP6 and the story Battler laid in Beato's coffin as a gift are different stories. He explicitly said no one was going to be allowed to read the latter, ever.



EP8 heavily implies he planned absolutely everything in EP6. Given that he 'exists on a higher plane' compared to the other characters as Territory Lord...
Its clearly stated that Lambda and Bern exist on a higher plane than the game master and Erika is Berns piece. The same way Beato couldnt control everything that happened (else the whole story looses its purpose because Battlers decisions and mistakes would have always been Beatos) Battler isnt omnipotent either. If he was, he could control everything, he could make Beato remember everything, and thats his problem in the first place... But maybe I just dont remember - where was it heavily implied? (honest question) I remember two quotes or something, but noting implies he planned "absolutely everything".

I know they are different. Thats my whole point XD Theres the dawn he wrote at the beginning of episode 6 about which he wondered if he could show it to Beato. And theres the dawn as Episode 6 played out. Unless he is better than Beato and wrote two stories at the same time without telling anyone, the way episode 6 turned out was at least not fully planned. and now, both episode 6 and the book he writes for beato are called dawn. its really much more logical to think episode 6 is dawn just with some radical changes. I dont know if he spontaneously decided to include the logic error or not. Since my most important argument isnt refuted yet, there is not much that leads me to believe he did- some hints are there yes, but they arent strong.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Uh...you realize there's a BOMB, right?
Well yes XD But the bomb wont explode ever if the time doesnt advance - or else Kannon wouldnt have to think hell spend eternity in the closed room.

Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-03-10 at 20:31.
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Old 2015-03-10, 19:19   Link #34922
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
Okay, let's say that Nanjo doesn't have the guts to ask for money or even pressure anybody. But the money still got sent to his family nonetheless. At this point, Rosa or Sayo could have easily pressured the old man that "now that I did you a favor, do me a favor" and drove him in a corner.
Sayo didn't need to pressure him. He volunteered to help her out of guilt for her condition, believing it was just a game and nobody would die. He said he didn't need money and was unaware she sent him some.
In Rosa's case we've the problem that Nanjo isn't feeling guilty, he knows Rosa was involved in Beatrice's death (and he felt guilty toward Beatrice), the money arrives to his house/relatives after the incident has happened so he didn't know about it.
And before having Rosa own money we still have to explain how she was in poor economical conditions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
Genji is the type of guy who knows everything and if the head wants to kill everybody he is willing to oblige. It's only likely that Genji would be informed by Rosa or Sayo of the plan. So if Nanjo is an accomplice and the plan required Nanjo to have one, then it wouldn't be any problem, since Genji would just see how things would play out.
Genji is loyal to the head because Kinzo saved his life among with the fact he was his friend. He claims he'll serve Sayo because he is guilty toward her but it's also implied once Kinzo died he too had no wish to go on.
In short he served Sayo out of guilt but if another was made the head he might have decided to retire. He's old enough and was likely the one best paid (just the Fukuin servants get paid quite a lot) so it's not like he had to obey Rosa.

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Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
George could easily knock Battler out. He does martial arts. Heck, even Nanjo might have given him a pistol. Gohda maybe big, but since George has some techniques, size isn't a problem.
Battler is also not weak. It's implied he's the physically stronger among the cousins and that he apparently went through his share of fights. He also trains regularly. We don't know if among the sports he makes there's also some fighting discipline or it's just physical exercise. In Ep 1 is Battler who manages to break the door enough for the cousins to get out and reach Natsuhi, not George.
We know George learnt martial arts but not if he's still training at them.
I'll say they could put up an interesting fight. George though would have to face two opponents and anyway gohda might not even know George is trained in martial arts so he wouldn't even consider being wary of him. Gohda is the new guy after all.

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Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
Kinzo was pretty old when he died. He mentioned in one of the episodes something along the lines that while a young man may do stupid things, when they get older, their sins become a thorn. This implies that he still wants salvation and forgiveness (as emphasized in most episodes) nonetheless. So he could also be desperate. If Rosatrice is to be followed, the incest baby is dead, and Rosa supposedly was given the Beatrice wig and clothing, that way Kinzo is able to apologize to Beatrice in a sense. Also because he is old, he might even comply with the idea that "Beatrice" should get the gold AND the headship, after all he might be caught up in his delusion that Beatrice really is there and that he forgot that this wasn't her (or maybe he thinks that it is indeed Lion).
Kinzo was never called senile though but it was always stated he was sharp. In Sayotrice he even figured out that Sayo was the baby and that's why he set up the epitaph. We know all the scenes in which we see him raving are fantasies placed after he died. Before becoming a dead shut in he was still sharp enough, even if prone to outburst of emotions which could range from overly complaining/whining over his children to beat and insult them to the point of abuse. He wants to be forgiven but he wants to be forgiven by Beatrice through Lion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
By this point she no longer cares about money and is set on killing people. In EP3, Rosa mentioned that she visited Beatrice 2 a couple of times and talked about lots of stuff, concerning Kinzo's visits. Because Beatrice 2 probably wouldn't know anything about what is to be told in public or in private, she might have also said that Kinzo had sex with her and that she had a baby.
You remember wrong. Rosa met Beatrice only once and when she did she lead her out of her house and Beatrice died. Beatrice didn't mention having a child and Rosa judged her pretty immature and more close to a child than to an adult.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
EP2, Kanon said that he and Jessica were killed by Rosa and that Rosa would kill everyone. Because of this statement, Rosa's claims that she wants to live and willing to fight for her life is questionable.
But we all know that Kanon in that scene was fantasy, that he was being controlled by Beatrice (and it would be odd for Beato to pin the blame on herself) and that ultimately he was lying.
Rosa shows she wants to live through all Ep 2, part in ep 3 and even in ep 4 she tries to fight before being killed. Rosa can work as a parallel to Sayo, as she too is waiting for someone and knows he'll never come back but ultimately her desperation steems by the burden of having to pay his debt. If she were to have money she believe she could pay off his debt she would regain his love.
Her situation isn't as hopeless as Sayo who believes no matter what her body won't allow her to be loved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
There is this thing in EP7 where Shannon supposedly transferred her feelings for Battler to Beatrice. Also in EP7, when Battler left the Ushiromiya family, only Shannon and Rosa were worried about him. Rosa said she misses Battler. The other family members weren't as worried. Plus there was a part in EP5 where she gave a suggestive wink to Battler.

(LOL incest do run in the family regardless of what theory you believe in!) <-- Joke right here.
If Sayo hands her feelings to Beatrice she just push them in a corner of her mind. If Sayo hands her feelings to another person... how would it work, really? She forces them on Rosa? Note that by then Rosa was likely more concerned with Maria's father than with Battler who was... what? 15? And her last memory of him was of a cute kid shorter than Jessica (Battler hit his grown spurt late).

Rosa's relations with men are relations with men, not with kids/teenagers. That wink was merely playful as anyway the family likes to joke about Battler and how handsome he has grown, Eva included (the only one not quite joking on it is Natsuhi who however praises him for growing similar to Kinzo whom she worshipped)

Battler claims that Rosa, like Hideyoshi, is a kind aunt who's always on the kids' side. So it fits she missed Battler. Natsuhi also sided a lot with Battler but Krauss showed he didn't apprecciate his wife scolding Rudolf so she probably restrain herself. In a way mentioning Battler is rude toward Kyrie as she's part of the reason why Battler is missing which is probably why the other adults keep quiet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
In the question arcs, she does not fear male lust. In fact, it sounds like she knows about it. In the question arcs, she doesn't view herself as furniture at all and sees herself superior to them. The thing about the condition of Yasu's body could be explained in a metaphorical way, since most of EP7 is fantasy and shouldn't be taken at face value.
In Ep 2 Beatrice is clearly disgusted by male lust and use it as a way to demean Shannon and George's love by claiming George only lusted after her (which the sub meaning that if George were to know the truth about her he would be disgusted).
In Ep 3 she talked about Kinzo's love for her as entirely based on lust and wish to posses her and refuses to be trapped by this to the point she kills herself.
When she refers to how Kinzo slept with her in ep 4 she basically says Kinzo abused of her.
Beatrice's view of sex is based on men lusting for women, keeping them trapped and abusing them. She acts like she can control it (which she said she did by killing herself) but I wouldn't say it's a person who looks like she apprecciates making love and in fact it's said she learnt to apprecciate it after her marriage with Battler.

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Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
This is very true. However, in EP4, she said to Maria that no man would accept a woman with someone else's child. This STRONGLY suggest that at some point, Rosa lost her chance to be in a relationship with the guy from Hokkaido and that she couldn't keep a boyfriend, so it is only natural to think that she'd be jealous of George and Shannon and even Jessica and Kanon. In all 4 games, Shannon and Beatrice are obviously "enemies" but in EP7, where the events take place before October 1986, they were friends (if Rosa is Beatrice). There is also a hint in EP2 that she and Shannon had tea and that they may have hung out. With all the supposed possession of the gold and the bomb, anyone in general would obviously be tempted to abuse this power (people can be easily be corrupted by power) and take the risk of carrying out the ritual in a literal fashion, so that she could receive 2 of the treasures bestowed to those who arrived in the Golden Land, the restoration of lost love and resurrection of the dead.
Ep 2 has Shannon and Beato being friends for a short time. In Ep 3 Kanon, having been resurrected by Beato admits he is in debt with her, a debt he'll pay in Ep 6. Beatrice is more or less the representation of the ID, the part of personality made up of unconscious energy that is focuses on fulfilling urges and desires.
In fact she's the one who hands Shannon the broch to fulfil her wish and tempts Kanon with the same item. Like everything in Umineko it's not necessarily bad, provided your urges and desires are a positive thing. When Sayo turns to self hate Beatrice, instead than helping her, starts harming her.
Ignoring Beatrice (which Shannon does in Ep 2) means ignoring her true wishes, denying yourself.
Submitting to Beatrice (which Kanon does) means allowing yourself to follow your desires regardless of them being bad or good.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
In EP2, when Battler was drunk he met with Beatrice, and according to narration, he was told everything before acknowledging her as a witch. Since only Rosa, Genji, Battler and Maria are the only ones left at the island at that point, the only candidate to be Beatrice is Rosa. If we follow EP7 (without taking everything at face value), we find out that Yasu becomes Beatrice, and since we are going with the notion that Rosa is Beatrice, then we can conclude that Yasu is created by Rosa and represents some of her feelings. Of course the way it is presented should not be taken at face value, but as a hint and in a metaphorical fashion.
The problem would be that Battler met also Kinzo. Since Genji remains outside this would means that either Rosa plays the role of Beatrice and Kinzo switching costumes really fast, Maria plays the role of Kinzo or it's a fantasy scene.
But the best hint this is a fantasy scene is that the room is filled with golden butterflies.

Now as this is a fantasy scene it can be that:
- Battler was actually killed by Rosa before she escaped. Once he's dead he can see as many fantasy scenes as he wants.
- Battler is so drunk he's just allucinating. In addition to this he has given up being the detective both in the meta and in game so his point of view isn't reliable anymore.
- When Genji goes to Battler is 11:30. We knows he tells Battler he believes time has come for him to tell Battler everything. Then there's a change of heart as Genji tells him he'll carry him to Kinzo's study so Kinzo and Beatrice will tell him everything.
It can be that actually it was Genji who told Battler everything as he said he would do but this tale caused time to run out so that Battler died. This part however wascut by the story and we're shown a fantasy scene in which he's actually told he'll be lead by Kinzo and Beatrice. His point of view isn't reliable anymore because he's already dead but we weren't shown that part.
- When Genji goes to Battler is 11:30. Battler however takes half a hour to reach Kinzo's study for (insert reason here) so once he gets there time's up and he dies.
- Confession says people can see golden butterflies 30 minutes before dying. When Genji goes to Battler is 11:30. In 30 minutes the bomb will go off and Battler will be dead. I take if he can see golden butterflies, which are clearly fantasy, he can see even Beatrice, Kinzo and flying elephants. Note that I hate this rule Sayo made up and I can't find a logic basis for it (why 30 minutes? Why not 40? 1 hour? 2 days?) but I know butterflies are tied to death and rebirth in Japanese culture so maybe for a Japanese person it would ring a bell. For me, I only get an headache.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
She was more concerned with getting a boyfriend, but in the end she failed. Plus, she seems to doesn't care about the company much and probably the guy was rich as well, so she might have been expecting that they get married and leaving her company for good (probably) and playing the role of housewife.
It's not that Rosa doesn't care for the company, it's that Rosa is poor at taking care of the things she cares/should care for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
EP2 and EP4. In EP2, she held the gun for the duration of this episode. Since in EP4 Battler doesn't see anything, then like the Sayotrice theory she has got to have guns in her possession to have the plan in EP4 in motion.
In Ep 2 she's Beatrice's/Sayo's accomplice and Genji hands her a gun same as he did when he handed it to Natsuhi in Ep 1. As Rosa might know as much as Natsuhi about guns it can also be that the gun in question is the same as the one Natsuhi had with safe bullets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
With Rosatrice, you have to work with the text and that some of the pics are a deception and a fantasy, since most of EP7 is a fantasy setting.
That was Will's solution. It wasn't fantasy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
With Sayotrice, it is pretty self - explanatory and you just have to polish things here and there. With Rosatrice, you have to work around it.
That's because Rosatrice isn't the intended solution and therefore you've to force the wrong piece of a puzzle in a certain position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
If we follow EP7 (without taking everything at face value), we find out that Yasu becomes Beatrice, and since we are going with the notion that Rosa is Beatrice, then we can conclude that Yasu is created by Rosa and represents some of her feelings. Of course the way it is presented should not be taken at face value, but as a hint and in a metaphorical fashion.
The problem is that Yasu's situation and Rosa's situation as presented are totally different. Yasu's backstory becomes a complete work of fantasy and I can't even figure why Rosa would create Yasu in the first place as Yasu can be many things but not a support for Rosa or a representation of Rosa's life.

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Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
No worries man. I am actually starting to have fun discussing in this forum. The posts are even getting longer. Like you said the first time I came here, this place is too quiet. Stuff IRL takes priority though.
Thanks! I'm having fun discussing as well so thank you for making the forum lively again.

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Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
On that note, and the primary reason I wanted to post something despite not being well-versed enough in the details of Umineko to really begin a discussion with you folks: does Yoshiya, Kanon's "true" name, mean anything in Japanese? Or is there some kind of word-game/riddle that could be behind it? Considering Sayotrice I was saddened that Kanon's decision and change of heart ultimately came to naught (although the story itself commented on it that it sure was a "beautiful" thing but "far too late"), so I wonder whether there is anything that the name Yoshiya could add to the background of the story.
There are various theories about the meaning of Yoshiya.

The math/chess one:

Yoshiya in numbers is 448 if you add 4+4+8= 16 which is the number of the chess pieces on the game board and the number of people truly on the island.

The math/demon one:

Somewhere I've read 16 is also a number tied to Zepar while Furfur would be tied to Sayo (which in number is 34, same as Lambda)

The inverse reading one:

According to some Yoshiya is just Sayo spelled backwards in japanese, while adding an ôiö (for ôai/loveö, for ôwithout love it canĺt be be seenö). As something similar was done for the Chiesters it can make sense.

The Christian one:

According to some Yoshiya would be the Japanese version of Yehoshua which in English is Joshua or also Jesus. I don't really see Kanon as some martir who sacrifices himself to save the world and redem the people from their sins (for me it's a too forceful interpretation) but well, with Beatrice being atop mount purgatory and the Fukuin being a catholic institute maybe it can make sense Sayo would come up with such name.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
From what I remember Rosatrice solves this case with George, who was not dead but wounded, who got up after everyone left the room, and went to kill Nanjo, only to perish soon after that (hence he could be declared dead by Evatrice). So I wish to ask: How could this scenario touch upon the heart of Rosatrice?
(Let's not consider the red that the manga added later on to this mystery for now, since we're still talking about the solvability based on EP1-4 alone)
Well, that's the problem with Rosatrice. Even if you find a way to make it work it doesn't touch the heart of Umineko.

Spoiler for Ramblings:


Sorry if this got convoluted, I was just interested what Sayotrice's take on this scene is. If I remembered something wrong (certainly possible!) please correct me, and I'm terribly sorry. It's been a few years since I read Umineko. [/QUOTE]

My feelings were that Evatrice was meant to represent how Eva, who merely things would go in a certain way, ended up in a mess bigger than her. Likely she thought to be in control of the game but when Hideyoshi and George died unexpectedly she was lost. At this point thought she forcefully took back the control accepting her role as culprit and shooting at Battler.
In the same way Evatrice seems to believe she's just playing a game then she's challenged by Battler and starts to lose so to gain control she litterally bury him in red.

Though there's to say we're told it was all Beatrice and Virgilia's plan and, until Battler took Piece Evatrice and pushed her in the chair of the gamemaster it can very well be that in truth Evatrice wasn't as free as we're lead to believe. She can beat PieceBeatrice on the gameboard but not GMBeatrice. But Battler doesn't know the difference between the two so he's lead to think that GMBeatrice and PieceBeatrice are the same person... which is clearly not the case as well shown in Ep 5 where PieceBeatrice is lively while MetaBeatrice isn't even capable to do the GM as she's almost comatose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levani View Post
Battler was able to witness Beatrice at the end of Episode 1 as well, the time was around 24:00 and if the memory serves me right, the time when Battler goes into Kinzo's study and finds Beato and him inside is right after 24:00. We were told multiple times that the game officially ends at 24:00. Obviously, because the bomb goes off and whoever remains to be alive -- dies. Battler at that point in time stops being a character in the story, therefore his objective viewpoint is lost.
In Ep 1, like in Ep 4 when Beatrice is over the balcony, he couldn't really see her well. He saw a person in Beatrice's dress while the place was pretty dark. Maria had ran to her and claimed it was Beatrice and he believed it. Then he sees Beatrice laughing and then it's midnight. He didn't really have enough time nor the best visual to realize it was Sayo.
The same happens when he sees her over the balcony. She's dressed up with a wig so as to loook like Beatrice and she's distant. There's no enough light or closeness for Battler to realize she's not Beatrice.
In Ep 2 though he is called by Genji at 11:30. I've discussed previously how things could have gone but what's sure is that in Ep 2 he couldn't have seen Beatrice as the room is also filled with golden butterflies which are a clear hint this is all fantasy.


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Originally Posted by Uberzaki View Post

I agree that the scene is very obviously a hint towards Beatrice's heart. Only problem is we are left with a resolution where, according to the TIPS, Battler was with Jessica when Eva killed him and a supposed Wolf and Sheep puzzle, meaning that either Jessica and Eva overpowered him or Eva came with two other people. I am wondering if Shkanontrice is only part of the picture there (and of the metaphorical scenes interpolated), but I may be misreading the wolf and sheep part, which may be referring only to EvaBeatrice accidentally shooting Jessica in Battler's presence.

Also funny irony tidbit: "Jessica" means foresighted, when in fact she is blinded before that scene.
In Ep 3 Battler wasn't exactly with Jessica. Jessica was hidden in the parlor and Battler was in front of it. We don't really know Jessica's real status it can be she was dead but still Battler was unaware she was there.
Eva might have felt she was the victim of a wolf and sheep puzzle (she hadn't killed George so she can think Jessica and Battler would work together against her) or it could actually be the reverse. Battler is technically a sheep who's alone and there are two culprits/wolves wandering around, one is Eva and the other is Sayo. Ergo Battler gets killed.
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Old 2015-03-10, 19:29   Link #34923
jTiKey
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Knox. Battler is the detective for ep 1. He can't say falsehood. If he say he viewed Rosa's corpse that corpse is Rosa's. Besides the corpses' identity was confirmed by red as Battler didn't know he had detective's privileges.
Battler sees Sayo, but calles him\her Shannon.
Battler calls Shannon "she".
Battler calls Kanon "he".

So what? Did he lie? As you say, HE SAD IT IN RED.

Battler checked only Rudolf's and Kyries corpses. Read the VN please. And. he isn't an esper to confirm dead bodies by sight.

EP 2 ending is a magic scene. Evil Witch killing Rosa at the end.

EP 3 - Rosa died, not Evil Witch. Are you sure you know Sayotrice? Same stuff here.

EP 4 - easy. Evil witch everywhere.

It's funny. You write miles of text, but all is just bs, you think is true.

but in general, Ryu meseed up the story starting from EP 6. This isn't a mystery novel. It's just a wannabe. Nice start, horrible ending. A shame he changed the manga plot, I'd still buy the VN story line.
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Old 2015-03-10, 19:54   Link #34924
Inbuiltx9
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...

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Yes, in this case it's more like Sayo playing Kanon's role. But the whole thing has the purpose to get you thinking about how and why Kanon was resurrected and other characters won't be (Genji for example will never be resurrected).
And it's interesting to compare Kanon's resurrection in Ep 2 with his resurrection in Ep 3, where only his voice was 'resurrected' if we can say so.
Huh? I dont really get this The purpose was to show there is a third "personality" apart from Kanon and Shannon that can run around and "play" Kanon/Shannon (even though she does never act like them in those moments) that still lives even when Kanon and Shanon are declared dead. Thats how Battlers trick with the phone call in Ep 5 worked (manga 8)


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Nope, in Ep 3 it's Shannon who's resurrected. At least in the magic scene showed to us. The one resurrected is the girl who loved George. In truth Ep 7 manga version shows that when George entered in the room Sayo was there waiting for him to kill him off (possibly after questioning him like she did in Ep 2...).
Yes, in the magic scene its Shannon,but like you said - in game-board reality its Sayo. And the red truth only ever refers to reality, never to the magic scenes. Thats why Shannon is never resurrected in a world that is not fantasy.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
It applies because Ange's suicidal personality died and she became a person capable of looking toward the future. Her personality becomes different.
In some countries to say that "the person you were before died" is a common way to say to imply you changed.
Red is not so clear cut nor it has to refer to the most obvious meaning. That's why Battler and Erika start checking definitions.
That doesnt convince me yet The reason Ange always ends up as "minces meat" for me is pretty clear. And as long as there was never mentioned anrything like "death can mean personality-change" there is no basis for this claim, quite the contrary because Ange in magic ending more or less confirm that evading this red-truth is pretty hard...BUT...

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Nope. The scene in which Ange jumps is after she saw Bernkastel and therefore it's a clear fantasy scene. The true ending as far as Ryukishi is involved is the magic ending. Ange considered jumping but didn't do it. Everything from Ange's jump in Ep 3, her travel in Ep 4, her meeting with Hachijo Tohya in Ep 6, her killing Amakusa on the boat in Ep 8 was fantasy and rather filled with fantasy elements that lead her to a determinate fantasy, to end her own life after she had accomplished some sort of goal.
When she leaves she didn't say that she'll always remain Ushiromiya Ange but that she hadn't given up on being Ange. She'll be Ange-Beatrice, which only means that through her stories she'll spread magic and keep alive the people she loved in her heart.
Previously Ange even said that Ushiromiya Ange died but that she'll keep on living. More than a hint on her really dying is likely a hint of how she managed to disappear, by spreading the rumour she died.
Ok, THAT actually convinces me. I somehow didnt remember the scene where she said herself that she died. And she indeed jumps AFTER she meets Bern. Thats why it as actually possible that Ange DID survive.
But still, the magic ending remains a magic ending - there are too many hints for that - the fact that she "saw" the events of Ep 8 - but she was another Ange than the Ange that was taking part in Ep 8 (the one that had met Featherine before). ...the fact that Ikuko didnt age and the fact that Ikuko promised Ange to compensate for the role she gave Ange in episode 6....+ the fact that the magic ending is called a magic ending all let us know, that this ending is fantasy/happend in the world of the book.
Also - we're completely getting the stories mixed up here - Ange in the magic ending has seen the events of ep 8. but this magic ending is supposed to be on the same layer as Touya/Ikuko who are supposed to have written the events of episode 8. Im sorry, that doesnt make any sense XD Actually the magic ending can be considered part of the book Ikuko and Touya wrote.

And as far as I remember Ryukishi never said the magic ending is the true ending, he said you can choose one of the three endings, but to him it would probably be the magic ending.
Sure he would choose this ending, this guy "believes" in magic and I too, can consider that as the "true" ending of the story, but not as a "Prime-Red-Truth"-Ending.
But what Ryukishi DID say was, that with Episode 8, he'd make us believe in magic...

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Of course you can offer a different interpretation that for you, seems more fitting. It's the same thing the Rosatrice fans are doing but you've the advantage that the Ange surviving theory is less strongly supported than the Sayotrice theory because the manga hadn't touched it yet and we only have Ryukishi's words that the magic ending is the true ending.
No no, I actually just stick to the facts and dont try to stretch them. Since I thought nothing supported the interpretation "Ange changes = Anges death" I considered that YOU were stretching the facts But I gotta admit, your last two points convinced me - Ange not jumping before meeting Bern and Ange herself stating that she died.

Just that again - Ryukishi didnt say its the true ending.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post

And if you ask me my favourite interpretation is that actually Ange disappeared with Tohya not knowing if she was alive or dead and that Ange's future was merely written by Tohya as he hoped his sister had finally found peace and that he could meet her again. But well, this interpretation ends up taking away the meaning of the last scene so it's likely not the right one.
I COMPLETELY agree with you there. Thats what I think as well. And no, that doesnt take away its meaning IMO. Because even Ange and everyone else are part of the book-world. If you'd like to think that way-as Ikuko does - they created a world. And by writing this very last part of the story, the finished this world with a happy ending - the Ange that took part in the book didnt wait in vain, and Battler could finally rest in peace. This last part happens on the same layer as the story of the book, thats why I find this interpretation far more meaningful than anything else.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post

Interpretations must also fit with the themes of the story. If Ange had died her whole story would be useless fantasy as it would lead to nowhere. Battler could have never saved her because she was already dead and no message could reach her.
The manga put emphasis on the parallel between Beato and Ange and how learning from Beato's story and from her mistakes will allow Ange to save herself.
Well, she would still "live", but the same as Battler would live when he says he's able to bring Beato out of the game world because he understood everything about magic. And the way I thought before was that Ange was able to get into this world of the dead in the first place because she was dead too. The question only remained if she could still go on living in an alternate world. Well, but since I agree Ange probably lives now, I dont need that reasoning


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Eva is not protecting Ange merely out of the godness of her heart. She admitted she did it to protect herself. She was miserable and hateful. She even grew paranoid and insane. This wasn't the person she was prior to the Rokkenjima incident.

I can interpret her change like the death of the Eva she was previously. But that's sort of irrelevant. Eva didn't die, each record referring to her as dead referred to piece Eva in a certain game or to the Eva of 1998.
The truth of the Prime leaves another impression, she DID feel sorry for Ange even after her father just murdered her son. And she also did say in the beginning she couldnt tell Ange about the truth - and Ep 8 also showed that this Eva-Beatrice was protecting Ange by taking the blame, even though she would have had a MUCH BETTER life if she just published what was written in the diary.
Here I still have a big problem to see how Eva could have survived.

Like I said, the death referring to Eva in 1998 is just really dumb, if it were the case, Bern wouldnt have to be surprised that Battler survived when she announced that he was dead in Ep 8-he could have died whenever...Its slightly better letting the truth refer to a game board-Eva. That is possible but Im somehow not convinced -because of the red truth after ep 6 and of ep 4, which seemed to be far too important to refer to only one single game-board. But, like I said, its possible...It feels like Ryukishi changed his opinion in the middle of the story, but I wont say its unlogical.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post

Yet Ryukishi declared the magic ending is the true ending.
No he didnt XD

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post

Are you referring to the gold used in the manga?
That's just how the typer decided to write it. In the original Japanese version the death are written in black and in the Visual Novel they're written in white.
There's no gold there.
The only gold spoken in Ep 6 is in reference to the candy magic.
And Ep 8 explained that Ep 6 was a perfect world for Beato because nor witches nor one of the relatives was at fault (Erika is not a witch in the game and she's not a relative) and because in the magic ending none of her three personalities suffered failure.
Yes, for the victims of the first twilight it was supposed to be all a prank. The same trick was used in Ep 5 when the cousins took part to the first twilight believing it was a prank... and even in Ep 4 when Jessica phoned to Battler claiming she'd been killed believing she was a prank.
But it's a mystery, not the tale of a prank, just a mystery in which a prank went wrong. Beato doesn't know which are Battler's plans and he hinted to her he has another goal.

Also if you compare the other results of the other games you'll find out they match how the twilights are declared, not really the death order.
In Ep 1 the results gave Battler, Jessica, Maria and George as missing, when they actually died in the explosion. In Ep 2 Kinzo is declared missing, never dead, while in Ep 1 and 4 he's declared dead in the 4th and 9th even though we know he's dead at the start of the game, and Shannon supposedly died stabbed in her head prior to George and Gohda.
Hideyoshi wasn't dead yet when the game was suspended in Ep 5 yet he results dead.
Good to know! Thanks! I hadnt found the Japanese raw, just the Chinese. And yes, they actually DO refer to the twilights. I stand corrected
It doesnt really affect my reading though since those were only small hints.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post

He's not always represented like an idiot. Although he took 5 games to solve everything he had his own moments in which he shined and ultimately he solved everything. He started with quite a huge handicap as, differently from Erika, not only he had no idea of which were the rules of the game, but he was also emotionally involved so his judgement wasn't rational.
Battler is capable of being smart, like when he let Kinzo escape from the room, and of lying, like in the whole Ep 5, when he was an accomplice.
Yes, but then he was controlled by Lambda/Bern, the same he was controlled by Bern when he solved the riddle together with Erika in Ep 5. Anyways, I agree that he isnt really an idiot, just pretty naive...And ep 6 really would mean a huuuuuuge crack in his personality.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post

He's a good person that doesn't mean harm... but LORD BATTLER knows that he's writing a tale in which the pieces aren't real people, the blame will be pinned on Erika and no one will read his tale apart from Beato (well, sort of, she's dead) as he'll seal it so that no one will further toy with the pieces due to his tale.
and no one will read his tale apart from Beato....and all the readers and pieces and everyone else who took part in Ep 6 XD if episode 6 took part the way he planned and wrote it at the beginning of ep 6.


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post

Add to this that we read Ep 6 in a rather dark light because we see it from MetaErika perspective but PieceErika might have been just a paranoid girl trying to play detective who killed everyone because she was actually paranoid and incompetent or something like that and thinks the culprit is faking his death (sort of like how Ange in the trick ending kills Kuwabata because she's afraid he might betray her).
We know really little of how Ep 6 mystery version was as not only it was interrupted soon but more than pieceErika in action we see MetaErika in action.
Beatrice liked mysteries. She wouldn't have been disgusted by him creating one for her. In Ep 3 it's hinted she wanted to play with Battler at creating mysteries.
You're right with your last sentence. She wouldnt be disgusted, Im pretty sure he would be The pieces on the game boards are after all not just lifeless pieces...They really are his family one way or another, thats why he didnt like the toying around in the previous episodes. But that doesnt make it impossible of course that he planned the logic error...

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Battler had to protect the story from Erika, so he couldn't go and use that trick that handed her such a huge hint on Beato's nature so early on while Beato was unaware of the truth about herself. He previously said he had hope Beato would remember. Let's not cut that part. It was pretty important for him. It was the miracle he hoped for.
The story wasn't to just give Beato a happy tale but to prove he had understood her and how magic works. It's said over and over.
yes yes, I know he says that. Actually I also thought about it if he the logic error occur on purpose at the beginning, but I threw that idea away because of this: he wrote dawn BEFORE he knew Beato didnt have her memories. Unless we want to say the whole episode 6 was a lie from start to finish (with him acting like sh*** towards Beato as well) it doesnt work. And I somehow could accept such a gigantic lie - i know at least one time he lied - IF this had a purpose. But him crying for Beato alone in Kinzos room etc. - thats just too much.
The only solution I find plausible is that he did let the logic error happen, but that would mean it wasnt really the way he planned dawn to be at the beginning...

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post

Also let's us not be tricked by confusing fantasy and Meta. Meta Battler never asked how he would be left free to escape and he never truly was closed in the room. It was fantasy Battler who was closed in the room and that meet fantasy Kanon who remained in the room with a collar tied around his neck.

That's fantasyBattler not MetaBattler. The one writing the story is MetaBattler who was currently marrying Erika and wasn't trapped in the room tearing away his fingernails.
Ok, HERE I completely disagree. You answer even a bit later that the line between meta and game-board isnt clear-cut. Actually there were several! times when the meta-Beato/Battler and co interact with the game board. End of Episode 2, End of Episode 4 (battle in the rose garden), Gaap, Ronove immediately jump from game-board to meta-world and Erika also talks to Meta-Battler as her piece. Also Ange in Episode 8 is sometimes the player, sometimes the piece.

And with this Im actually almost 100% sure that its meta-battler that is in the room - the reason he cant get out is because his piece cant get out. its a form of hell Bern and Lambda also experienced. what is in the room is his "soul" and not the body of meta-battler. the manga says so explicitly. of course thats somewhat a different layer, cause in the looked-room time is flowing differently from the game-board, as Kanon states. he IS in this locked room as the game-master (explicitly shown in the manga/described in the VN), i.e. his soul is. btw - theres a really easy way to confirm that by looking at his clothes XD

meaning - the most important argument still stands


And meta-battler has all the nice thoughts about what happened in prime after what was shown in the tea-party episode 7. By the way you remember my theory about his comments not being good with chain-locks etc, right? He also says after the family gathering he was dozing off. Im pretty sure that refers to him getting drunk on alcohol as its shown several times on the game-board. If we go by what episode 5 says about how he believed in something and had to give up on this belief (COULD refer to Battler, on this part Im less sure), Id think Sayo met him, told him everyone was dead or something, he didnt believe her at first and didnt take the result too well, so that afterwards he drank alcohol to forget about his worries (same habbit Kinzo has- mentioned in ep 2/3). After that follows what I described earlier. Anyways, to answer the last part..

it IS meta-battler that asks Beato how she would help him get out of the room - when Beato challenges Erika in the chapel he asks her that.


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post

Umineko is all a jump between the mystery, the fantasy and the meta. In Ep 2 there's even a scene where PieceBattler says the words MetaBattler wanted to say and in Ep 5 Erika breaks the wall between mystery and meta by talking to Bern while everyone was having breakfast (due to this and to other stuffs is possible to speculate that Erika was just insane and paranoid and that's why she could kill people in ep 6).
Yep, I agree that the line between meta and game-board arent clear.


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
In Umineko existences can be re-modelled. We see that Yasu changes the shape of her own world so that Gaap stop being Beatrice and becomes Beatrice's friend and then Beatrice becomes the one who loves Battler and then Beatrice changes look and then in her mind Beatrice, which was a dear friend, becomes someone who tortures her.

The world could have been altered again to make possible for Bern to be Ikuko's cat. After all that's what writers can do when playing with characters.
Yes, but that confirms more or less what I said


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Actually there were hints for that and since in the VN it was never said she found the confession it was also the best explanation for how certain details could be known as it seemed hard to believe in such situation Battler and Sayo had sat up together and she had told him of how she pranked Berune or how she had met Gaap. We the confession in her hands though, even if some hints remain, Sayo's survival isn't necessary anymore.
Mind you, the manga hinted that the bottle was found much time after Battler started living with her. Unless beaches are kept dirty or are rather desert if this was true someone else should have found the bottle prior to her.
Well, since the story is a book that includes the Prime-truth, I dont think there was ever a reason to ask "who knows what" in the first place...Your last bit is a bit strange...Im saying its weird how she found the bottle. Its just weird XD I dont have an explanation thats why I want more depth for Ikukos character...


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
We don't know to what that ending refers. The game was left suspended due to the situation. As soon as they had dealt with Erika Beato and Battler might have resumed it for their own personal pleasure.
Or the sentence can refers to Bern's plans for the next game, the one in which Lion's exist (not the play Ange sees).
With lack of details we can't really say, even though considering the setting in which it's given I'll think it refers more to what Bern is planning to do than to Ep 6... even though very likely in Ep 6 mystery version everyone died just the same.
After all Will read the full tale (I guess Bern managed to steal the tale that was meant for Beato only).

We can't really say that it surely refers to Prime (especially with Ryukishi saying the ending is meant to be the magic one) so it's up to speculation.
No, we cant be sure. But its repeated over and over and over again, that I find it hard to believe that it refers to a game-board. The explanations arent really convincing imo. cause there was never anything that hinted at them resuming the game board, quite the contrary, nor does a red-truth ever refer to a "what-if"-situation , so no matter what battlers intentions were for the 6th game-board, if he planned to end it with the logic error or if he wrote the mystery with the intention of having everyone killed - the fact is that the game was abandoned and time stopped. the red truth is out of place here.

Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-03-10 at 20:15.
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Old 2015-03-10, 20:15   Link #34925
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by jTiKey View Post
Battler sees Sayo, but calles him\her Shannon.
Battler calls Shannon "she".
Battler calls Kanon "he".

So what? Did he lie? As you say, HE SAD IT IN RED.
You are aware aren't you that Sayo is also called Shannon? That this is her blessed name?
And that he is told to call her as such and she never told him she's named Sayo?
Are you lying if you call me jjblue1? If you're referring to me as such? That's my nick and the nick you're supposed to use to call me.
Also please be aware that you're reading a translation. In Japanese (and in other languages) there's no need to use he and she for each damn sentence.

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Originally Posted by jTiKey View Post
Battler checked only Rudolf's and Kyries corpses. Read the VN please. And. he isn't an esper to confirm dead bodies by sight.
Please do not assume I hadn't read the VN. It's quite rude.
5 bodies are described as in plain sight. Everyone saw them. Now, if you want to see that Rosa, despite having her face smashed, was still alive, be my guest. Battler didn't check her pulse so yes, if Rosa with her face plowed can be alive to you maybe she is.

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And treated just the same, the corpses of several people had been laid to rest there. No, had been thrown in there!
I could tell them by their clothes.
......That old bastard and Kyrie-san. ...Krauss oji-san and Rosa oba-san. ......Beyond that, ...Gohda-san and, ...there's still more of them? How many people died.........You're fucking kidding me! I can't even count them on one hand! Damn iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit!!!I didn't know whether it had been one of these gardening tools, which if used for something other than their intended purpose could definitely be wielded with a naked brutality, or whether some horrible tool had been brought in here specifically for this.
......Anyways, .........the bodies which had been tumbled into here, each of them had been given an atrocious makeup.
...It wasn't makeup, ...it was more like..., "their faces had been plowed"...!
Their faces were smashed, forced into an expression that a normal person couldn't make even after death. ...I couldn't tell where the eyes or the noses were, but I could find their mouths...because they were gaping wide, the ridges of their teeth exposed! But their front teeth were missing, and even the cheek that should have covered that was all torn up and exposed! Even as a man, the stylish makeup that I thoughtlessly worried about was all useless...!!
Oh, before saying it's just make up, please hands us hints of how Rosa reached such a level in makeup abilities. Battler saw five bodies (he mentioned them by name) and saw their faces had been plowed. So yes, he saw Rosa's face or what remained of it.

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Originally Posted by jTiKey View Post
EP 2 ending is a magic scene. Evil Witch killing Rosa at the end.

EP 3 - Rosa died, not Evil Witch. Are you sure you know Sayotrice? Same stuff here.

EP 4 - easy. Evil witch everywhere.
Yes, I know Sayotrice. Now can you stop implying I hadn't read the VN or the manga? And are you sure that Evil Witch can survive after a spear of the fence pierced Rosa's medulla oblongata?

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Originally Posted by jTiKey View Post
It's funny. You write miles of text, but all is just bs, you think is true.
Sorry, I didn't know that if I were to write clipped sentences that go against the VN, the interviews and the manga instead than explaining myself referencing the VN, the interviews and the manga then they would be elevated to the level of red truth. You opened my eyes, it was a earth shattering experience.

Here, I'll amend my error.

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Culprit = Sayotrice.
Is it clipped enough?
Ops, too bad, I forgot it had to step over the VN, the manga and the interviews. Well, it'll be for when I'll decide to make my own story instead than solving the one at hands.

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Originally Posted by jTiKey View Post
but in general, Ryu meseed up the story starting from EP 6. This isn't a mystery novel. It's just a wannabe. Nice start, horrible ending. A shame he changed the manga plot, I'd still buy the VN story line.
If you want to rewrite Umineko's ending be my guest. Just don't count me among your possible readers.
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Old 2015-03-10, 20:36   Link #34926
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by Levani View Post
GreyZone, I didn't know you were into Umineko fandom too! Awesome...
Actually Umineko is the reason I made an account on animesuki in the first place




So... is my Ikuko=Yasu theory still a possibility?
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Old 2015-03-10, 21:58   Link #34927
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
Huh? I dont really get this The purpose was to show there is a third "personality" apart from Kanon and Shannon that can run around and "play" Kanon/Shannon (even though she does never act like them in those moments) that still lives even when Kanon and Shanon are declared dead. Thats how Battlers trick with the phone call in Ep 5 worked (manga 8)
Yes, basically. It's a hint to Sayotrice.

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Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
Yes, in the magic scene its Shannon,but like you said - in game-board reality its Sayo. And the red truth only ever refers to reality, never to the magic scenes. Thats why Shannon is never resurrected in a world that is not fantasy.
The problem is that it's the Shannon role/personality/whatever who was declared dead. Her true nature, call it Syao or Yasu just to be clearer, was never declared dead so it can't be resurrected.

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Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
And as far as I remember Ryukishi never said the magic ending is the true ending, he said you can choose one of the three endings, but to him it would probably be the magic ending.
Sure he would choose this ending, this guy "believes" in magic and I too, can consider that as the "true" ending of the story, but not as a "Prime-Red-Truth"-Ending.
But what Ryukishi DID say was, that with Episode 8, he'd make us believe in magic...
Unless there's an error in the translation this is what it's said in the interview when he talks about the two endings. He defines the magic ending as the true ending and the trick ending as the bonus ending.

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So I want the people to watch the True End first and then go back knowing about that and approach it with a stance, that it is a Bonus Ending. And then I can expect them to approach the Trick Ending with a thought like äAh, so thatĺs another way to solve things.
But yes, I guess you can interpret it as he meant true ending only for the story and not for Prime. On this though we'll have to agree to disagree if it's okay for you.

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Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
I COMPLETELY agree with you there. Thats what I think as well. And no, that doesnt take away its meaning IMO. Because even Ange and everyone else are part of the book-world. If you'd like to think that way-as Ikuko does - they created a world. And by writing this very last part of the story, the finished this world with a happy ending - the Ange that took part in the book didnt wait in vain, and Battler could finally rest in peace. This last part happens on the same layer as the story of the book, thats why I find this interpretation far more meaningful than anything else.
Well, my interpretation of the last scene, the one in which Battler finally reunited with Beatrice, is that now that Tohya has finally settled things with his sister and seen that everything is going as Battler hoped, his Battler-side can finally rest in peace.
When Ikuko found Tohya, Tohya knew he had something he wanted to accomplish, something he had to do but couldn't remember what. Probably he wanted to take care of his sister somehow.
If Tohya never met Ange he could never be sure his message reached her and she lived a happy life. Ergo theoretically Battler could never rest in peace.
But well, I admit the scene was discussed for a long time and no one could find an agreement on how to see it and this is just my view.
You can also see it just as Tohya building his happy fantasy and being happy with it. IMHO is less meaningful but that's just me. You can find it very meaningful. I guess here it's a matter of personal tastes.
LOL, I'm waiting rather anxiously for the manga in order to see what it'll say.

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Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
The truth of the Prime leaves another impression, she DID feel sorry for Ange even after her father just murdered her son. And she also did say in the beginning she couldnt tell Ange about the truth - and Ep 8 also showed that this Eva-Beatrice was protecting Ange by taking the blame, even though she would have had a MUCH BETTER life if she just published what was written in the diary.
Here I still have a big problem to see how Eva could have survived.
I thought so too until I read chap 25 of the manga in which she admitted that by protecting Ange she was also protecting herself. Very likely Eva had contrasting feelings inside her. A side of her probably wanted to be a good person, protect Ange and show that Kyrie was wrong when she said Eva too would have done what Kyrie did.
Another side was likely consumed by what she went through, her hate for Kyrie and Rudolf and by the fear of being blamed.
It's a toxic relation similar to the one between Rosa and Maria where Rosa would like to be a good mom... but ultimately she fails.
Ange said that Eva would take out her anger on her, though it seems Eva's abuse was verbal and not physical... even if she also said when being beaten by Kasumi's men that:

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So this violence was a bit nostalgic, in a way that made me want to vomit.
So maybe it wasn't just verbal.

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Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
Like I said, the death referring to Eva in 1998 is just really dumb, if it were the case, Bern wouldnt have to be surprised that Battler survived when she announced that he was dead in Ep 8-he could have died whenever...Its slightly better letting the truth refer to a game board-Eva. That is possible but Im somehow not convinced -because of the red truth after ep 6 and of ep 4, which seemed to be far too important to refer to only one single game-board. But, like I said, its possible...It feels like Ryukishi changed his opinion in the middle of the story, but I wont say its unlogical.
Bern didn't seem to understand well how gold worked even in Ep 5. Ange resurrected him by declaring him alive in gold, if I don't remember wrong. This might have done the trick.
And yes, Ryukishi changed his plans through Umineko many times so some leftovers remains (he also corrected some mistakes in the PS3 version so there are things who're even mistakes and he was aware of them).

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Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
Yes, but then he was controlled by Lambda/Bern, the same he was controlled by Bern when he solved the riddle together with Erika in Ep 5. Anyways, I agree that he isnt really an idiot, just pretty naive...And ep 6 really would mean a huuuuuuge crack in his personality.
But Dlanor told us his piece couldn't do things Battler couldn't do.

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Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
You're right with your last sentence. She wouldnt be disgusted, Im pretty sure he would be The pieces on the game boards are after all not just lifeless pieces...They really are his family one way or another, thats why he didnt like the toying around in the previous episodes. But that doesnt make it impossible of course that he planned the logic error...
That's why I think he planned to push the blame on Erika, who's not family, as he tried to do for most of the answer arc. He also has understood the nature of the game so he doesn't have problems writing fantasy scenes in which the pieces die (Maria gets splattered... ^_^; while previously he couldn't stomach any scene in which a piece died, be it fantasy or not. And it's said Ep 6 later got hidden so that only Beato can read it... but now... there's way too many magic people who're aware of it so maybe it means only he didn't print it as a forgery?
So in Prime it didn't cause people to discuss over how Erika could totally be the culprit or whatever else was discussed in Ep 6.

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Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
yes yes, I know he says that. Actually I also thought about it if he the logic error occur on purpose at the beginning, but I threw that idea away because of this: he wrote dawn BEFORE he knew Beato didnt have her memories. Unless we want to say the whole episode 6 was a lie from start to finish (with him acting like sh*** towards Beato as well) it doesnt work. And I somehow could accept such a gigantic lie - i know at least one time he lied - IF this had a purpose. But him crying for Beato alone in Kinzos room etc. - thats just too much.
The only solution I find plausible is that he did let the logic error happen, but that would mean it wasnt really the way he planned dawn to be at the beginning...
My best guess is that originally the logic error wasn't planned or he planned to escape to it... but then he either decided to revise or to risk everything. It's a bit hard to judge if Battler revised on his own prior to revising for Erika, or when he decided to revise for Erika he saw this possibility and caught it or... whatever else. Ep 6, differently by Ep 5, didn't really get lot of explanations (we are only explained the Kanon trick) so what went into Battler's mind is up to speculation.

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Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
Ok, HERE I completely disagree. You answer even a bit later that the line between meta and game-board isnt clear-cut. Actually there were several! times when the meta-Beato/Battler and co interact with the game board. End of Episode 2, End of Episode 4 (battle in the rose garden), Gaap, Ronove immediately jump from game-board to meta-world and Erika also talks to Meta-Battler as her piece. Also Ange in Episode 8 is sometimes the player, sometimes the piece.
There seems to be a connection between pieces, fantasy and meta, yes so that sometimes they seem to be one and the same. But the Battler in the room is... well in the room, while Meta Battler is with Erika, marrying her.
"Battler in the room" do not seem to be aware of what's going on with MetaBattler but Meta Battler is occasionally aware of his surrounding enough to reply to Erika.
Now it can totally be that in a way MetaBattler is also technically trapped. He has a trick he can use but won't use it so he isn't allowed to get out even if he could.
I think that "Battler in the room" is a symbolic and fantasy representation of the fact that Battler was stuck into a situation. But when "Battler in the room" is freed by Kanon MetaBattler still remains comatose (yet he's still at his own marriage and not in the room) and 'wakes up' only when Erika is defeated. "Battler in the room" isn't MetaBattler, he's just a representation for him, one that'll fit with the story. MetaBattler is on a layer that's over the one of "Battler in the room". "Battler in the room" is probably akin to a magic piece and in the early parts of the VN he is described as unaware of how he ended up in the room.

The story already presented us with a MetaBattler who's with Beato, a PieceBattler who's on the gameboard and a fantasy Battler who fight Dlanor in Ep 5.
PieceBattler and FantasyBattler in Ep 5 are moved by Lambda but I guess Battler could have moved them himself without becoming them.
Same as in Ep 5 we've MetaBeato comatose, fantasyBeato supporting Natsuhi and Sayo going around killing and pinning the blame on Natsuhi.

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Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
And meta-battler has all the nice thoughts about what happened in prime after what was shown in the tea-party episode 7. By the way you remember my theory about his comments not being good with chain-locks etc, right? He also says after the family gathering he was dozing off. Im pretty sure that refers to him getting drunk on alcohol as its shown several times on the game-board. If we go by what episode 5 says about how he believed in something and had to give up on this belief (COULD refer to Battler, on this part Im less sure), Id think Sayo met him, told him everyone was dead or something, he didnt believe her at first and didnt take the result too well, so that afterwards he drank alcohol to forget about his worries (same habbit Kinzo has- mentioned in ep 2/3). After that follows what I described earlier. Anyways, to answer the last part..
Hum... you lost me... but it could be because it's 3:44 Am here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
it IS meta-battler that asks Beato how she would help him get out of the room - when Beato challenges Erika in the chapel he asks her that.
In a way you can read his request as 'please, think to a trick to use your piece to get my piece out of that room', which is what Beatrice does. Only we aren't shown how things really went but we got the magic interpetation of Kanon going to rescue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
Well, since the story is a book that includes the Prime-truth, I dont think there was ever a reason to ask "who knows what" in the first place...Your last bit is a bit strange...Im saying its weird how she found the bottle. Its just weird XD I dont have an explanation thats why I want more depth for Ikukos character...
If the book includes Prime truth that's universally known, like that the island exploded there's no problem. If the book includes facts that only a person could have known in Prime and this person is supposedly dead there's to wonder how the author got those info. The books include details only Sayo should know. In the manga it turned out they were in confession but in the VN we didn't have this info.

I thought you meant to say Battler had the bottle when he was found, which he actually didn't. But evidently I misunderstood you.
Well, all the bottles were tossed in the sea... so it was possible for Ikuko to find it even if, as many underlined, there were too many convenient coincidences in Umineko.

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Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
No, we cant be sure. But its repeated over and over and over again, that I find it hard to believe that it refers to a game-board. The explanations arent really convincing imo. cause there was never anything that hinted at them resuming the game board, quite the contrary, nor does a red-truth ever refer to a "what-if"-situation , so no matter what battlers intentions were for the 6th game-board, if he planned to end it with the logic error or if he wrote the mystery with the intention of having everyone killed - the fact is that the game was abandoned and time stopped. the red truth is out of place here.
Well, as so far there's no an answer to why it was written there (unless I'm forgetting some bits in the interviews?) all we can do is to make theories. But of course the problem with theories is that one can reject them because only Ryukishi can confirm them.

I can't really remember that quote being discussed in the past (it might be there's tons of posts) so I can't really offer anything beyond my opinion. Maybe someone has a better theory?
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Old 2015-03-11, 05:17   Link #34928
Inbuiltx9
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post

The problem is that it's the Shannon role/personality/whatever who was declared dead. Her true nature, call it Syao or Yasu just to be clearer, was never declared dead so it can't be resurrected.
My point exactly. There was no need for "resurrection" since Sayo never died.


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
But yes, I guess you can interpret it as he meant true ending only for the story and not for Prime. On this though we'll have to agree to disagree if it's okay for you.
Yes, I sure disagree with you XD the fact how the layers cant overlap like that is why Im pretty sure its not prime.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Well, my interpretation of the last scene, the one in which Battler finally reunited with Beatrice, is that now that Tohya has finally settled things with his sister and seen that everything is going as Battler hoped, his Battler-side can finally rest in peace.
When Ikuko found Tohya, Tohya knew he had something he wanted to accomplish, something he had to do but couldn't remember what. Probably he wanted to take care of his sister somehow.
If Tohya never met Ange he could never be sure his message reached her and she lived a happy life. Ergo theoretically Battler could never rest in peace.
But well, I admit the scene was discussed for a long time and no one could find an agreement on how to see it and this is just my view.
You can also see it just as Tohya building his happy fantasy and being happy with it. IMHO is less meaningful but that's just me. You can find it very meaningful. I guess here it's a matter of personal tastes.
LOL, I'm waiting rather anxiously for the manga in order to see what it'll say.
Thing is, the Ange we meet is always the Ange from the book. if we're leaving the scene in the hospital with eva aside, there are only scenes of ange that relate to the meta. and since the meta is supposed to be written by Touya/Ikuko it just is not possible that this occured in the "real reality". In that sense, what other ending could we hope for for "Ange"? Its far more meaningful to have a happy ending for the ange of the book-world than for a real-life Ange we (probably) never met.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post

I thought so too until I read chap 25 of the manga in which she admitted that by protecting Ange she was also protecting herself. Very likely Eva had contrasting feelings inside her. A side of her probably wanted to be a good person, protect Ange and show that Kyrie was wrong when she said Eva too would have done what Kyrie did.
Another side was likely consumed by what she went through, her hate for Kyrie and Rudolf and by the fear of being blamed.
It's a toxic relation similar to the one between Rosa and Maria where Rosa would like to be a good mom... but ultimately she fails.
Ange said that Eva would take out her anger on her, though it seems Eva's abuse was verbal and not physical... even if she also said when being beaten by Kasumi's men that:

So maybe it wasn't just verbal.
No, Eva was no saint. Thats clearly stated even in the tea pary of episode 7. eva would have been able to commit murder, even before going through what happened in prime. that shows even more that its still eva after what happened on rokkenjima. and also the fact that she -if only partly - still has those feelings for Ange make its REALLY hard to see how Eva died.
That is unless we say again that Ryukishi changed the story in the middle :S


Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Bern didn't seem to understand well how gold worked even in Ep 5. Ange resurrected him by declaring him alive in gold, if I don't remember wrong. This might have done the trick.
And yes, Ryukishi changed his plans through Umineko many times so some leftovers remains (he also corrected some mistakes in the PS3 version so there are things who're even mistakes and he was aware of them)./
I dont remember either, but the point was that Ange learnt resurrection, not how Bern didnt know how the golden truth works, which by the point of episode 8 I doubt she doenst, cause its stated more or less that she has understood all the games before.
its forced reasoning to say death can refer to a death somewhere in the future, cause that would make the game-boards unsolvable. again, ultimate explanation - he made a mistake XD (joking)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post

But Dlanor told us his piece couldn't do things Battler couldn't do.
I expected that answer XD Well, its like using the potential to the utmost. The difference between battler on the game-board and meta-battler is still there, they are even joking about how hed be better off if Bern would control his piece. Anyways, I dont want to say hes stupid at all. so theres no point in arguing about that. Actually I think hes quite intelligent and knowledgeable, if you consider all the stuff he knows. but you can be intelligent and at the same time be an idiot XD what I mean to say is that he is naive and honest and very often talks without thinking.
and I think this characterization doesnt fit well with some of those speculations.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post

... but now... there's way too many magic people who're aware of it so maybe it means only he didn't print it as a forgery?
So in Prime it didn't cause people to discuss over how Erika could totally be the culprit or whatever else was discussed in Ep 6.
Sorry, I dont get what you say here

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
My best guess is that originally the logic error wasn't planned or he planned to escape to it... but then he either decided to revise or to risk everything. It's a bit hard to judge if Battler revised on his own prior to revising for Erika, or when he decided to revise for Erika he saw this possibility and caught it or... whatever else. Ep 6, differently by Ep 5, didn't really get lot of explanations (we are only explained the Kanon trick) so what went into Battler's mind is up to speculation.
Im completely fine with this interpretation. He SOMEWHAT planned this or something similar to happen- because thats exactly the info we get. I think you used a nice formulation he "saw the possibility and caught it". thats certainly possible.
But him being an a*** to beato, him saying to Erika-one of the main goals of the game- he wants to go all out with her and then holding back (well he DID win in the end, but he took a huge risk according to the expected miracle, if wed like to follow the reasoning that he planned the logic error),and him asking genji about the logic error AFTER he finished the story "oh, a logic error? what is that? please tell me genji, i just used that in my giant master plan against erika, but please explain it again so I can fool mr. nobody that is watching us two talking in this room all alone". but most importantly, he would have even had to fake his THOUGHTS in the course of playing dawn, what would be the point of that????
well, we can of course say that what was stated later doesnt fit with what happened in episode 6, so its a mistake or judged from a story-line encompassing POV (since its Bern, this is my preferred interpretation) but imo there was never clearly stated that he planned it all from start to finish so Im not too hung up on that.

(random thought: him showing he understood beatos heart is already accomplished when they have the love duel, and "understanding magic" imo doesnt refer to kanon/shannon tricks - those are TRICKS after all, but to the ability to "decorate" the truth and accept it as truth) EDIT: after my awesome crack-theory I just came up with while writing this post - "understanding magic" of course refers to his ability to create new worlds XD

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post

There seems to be a connection between pieces, fantasy and meta, yes so that sometimes they seem to be one and the same. But the Battler in the room is... well in the room, while Meta Battler is with Erika, marrying her.
"Battler in the room" do not seem to be aware of what's going on with MetaBattler but Meta Battler is occasionally aware of his surrounding enough to reply to Erika.
Now it can totally be that in a way MetaBattler is also technically trapped. He has a trick he can use but won't use it so he isn't allowed to get out even if he could.
I think that "Battler in the room" is a symbolic and fantasy representation of the fact that Battler was stuck into a situation. But when "Battler in the room" is freed by Kanon MetaBattler still remains comatose (yet he's still at his own marriage and not in the room) and 'wakes up' only when Erika is defeated. "Battler in the room" isn't MetaBattler, he's just a representation for him, one that'll fit with the story. MetaBattler is on a layer that's over the one of "Battler in the room". "Battler in the room" is probably akin to a magic piece and in the early parts of the VN he is described as unaware of how he ended up in the room.

The story already presented us with a MetaBattler who's with Beato, a PieceBattler who's on the gameboard and a fantasy Battler who fight Dlanor in Ep 5.
PieceBattler and FantasyBattler in Ep 5 are moved by Lambda but I guess Battler could have moved them himself without becoming them.
Same as in Ep 5 we've MetaBeato comatose, fantasyBeato supporting Natsuhi and Sayo going around killing and pinning the blame on Natsuhi.
EDIT: I think I only understood later on what you meant with the fantasy-piece. I answered that a bit later, the clothes-argument is then of course not valid any more. Im still letting my original anwer here:

Nope, there was never anything mentioned about a third layer with fantasy-figures, there are only pieces and meta-characters. its even said that in episode 5, beato is a piece. in this game she is is only natsuhis delusion (said so) thats why sayo still goes around killing everyone without beato being aware of the true culprit. it also explicitly states that the battler from game 5 is "piece battler". Pieces can have more or less knowledge about whats going on in the world and they can be brought out of the game-board. shannon/kanon, gaap, ronove etc. all know what world they are in. there is really nothing strange about piece-battler fighting with dlanor, he is controlled by lambda anyways. and of course, lets not forget, he is an accomplice of the culprit who has the same delusions of beato, that way he is able to "see" beato too etc.


now Im only going to state what is said/shown, Im not gonna add interpretation here:
it is said that meta-battlers soul is in the locked room, it is said that only his body remains on the layer above the game-board, it is said that battler even shortly before his marriage to erika "sees" the locked room, erika says to meta-battler he must get out of the room before he can do anything, lambda says to meta-battler "lets go back to the closed room, that will be your world from now on", it is shown how meta-battler tries to get out of the locked room at the beginning just by leaving through the door, meta-battler says while being married to erika "i cant get out". its said he can still realize whats going on around him - but it says explicitly he can do so JUST BARELY.
now, its not even remotely possible to say the person locked in the closed-room isnt meta-battler just look at his clothes he wears when kanon comes to the rescue, its not the same as when he was pieces-battler. if you want to, you could say he "entered" his piece. after all, if we look at it from a normal game-board perspective, there should have been Erika around somewhere in the room.
of course, the locked room he is in is somewhat still on another layer, kanon says so, the time is flowing differently.after all, this is a form of hell. but this locked room meta-battler is in is accesible from the game-board. "there are movements on the game board" - and the results of those movements on the game-board are that kanon enters a room in which time flows differently. its really easy to explain, part of the game-board became a hell of thought or however lamda called it. but it is always said that it is meta-battlers soul and not some other "entity" that is locked in the room.

he doesnt immediately regain consciousness when he is rescued simply because of the ring. once it shatters, he immediately can come back.

now, your speculation still would not explain why in the beginning battler in the closed room knew all the conditions about the closed room and later didnt even know how he got there.
well, it could be he simply forgot, but my take on it is that the experiences he has in the room when its all dark and creepy in there occur AFTER he is married to Erika and BEFORE beato helps him to get out of there. they explicitly state that with the ring he wouldnt even be able to think about getting out of the room - and he actually cant anymore in these scenes- they said something about his heart dying (at the time he got the ring), and that also fits with the events that occur in the closed room after he doesnt remember anymore how he got there, for example his vague recollection of the method to leave through the bathroom or when Erika is biting off his ring-finger. he "reexperiences" some of his memories. the chain-lock also changed in a way that he would never be able to unset it, if it werent for Bern having some "fun" - fitting to the comment "we're going to lock your heart in the closed room you created" (even though he is already locked in there) and her statement that he wont be able to get out anymore after this.

So everything fits well together if we just assume - as it is explicitly stated - that it is meta-battlers soul that is in the locked room and that spend years in there. We dont need to postulate this third layer.

oh but if you mean that: there are pieces playing the parts of mystery, pieces playing part of fantasy and the meta-world. thats not that easy. but it wouldnt even matter if meta-battler "enters" his mystery-piece or his "fantasy-piece". after all, its still meta-battlers soul that enters the locked room through his piece. at least that is what is stated. and why would fantasy battler stand in the room where mystery-battler disappeared and say a red truth like "battler is not in this room". yes, it could be a fantasy-piece, but this piece is continuing the argument with erika that meta-battler is just in the middle of. its like ange the player taking control of her piece in episode 8. (btw, where would her player-"body" be in the end?) Unless you want to say even the meta in episode 6 was part of the game-board (which would cause HUGE CRACKS in the logic) it doesnt matter if meta-battlers "body" in that moment is meta-battlers or fiction-battlers. the fact is-as lambda says a bit later - its meta-battler that is going to the room. and why would mystery-kanon need to rescue a fantasy-battler from a room, that shoulnd have problems to get out of the room in the first place. for a fantasy-piece battler sure uses the human style to try to get out of that room, like smashing the window etc. and this "fantasy" battler can only be saved by "mystery-kanon" setting the chain again...eh wait, what? i think its best not to try to differentiate to much between "fantasy-pieces" and "mystery-pieces", because that would only lead to questions like - "what is even the connection between the meta-characters and their pieces" and that one, I fear, cant be really answered. there are too many contradictory statements, and Im not touching that subject..its just that in ep 6 the surrounding of the layers are really getting mixed up - as shown in the duel at the end between beato and erika - first they are in the chapel, then in the locked room, then in the golden land. it all switches around, I wouldnt try to argument that with every switch another piece is takin part in the duel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Hum... you lost me... but it could be because it's 3:44 Am here...
What a pity, that was the best part of my post XD you live in europe? it was ~ 4:30 when I wrote mine
anyways, I was saying:
Battlers thoughts in the closed room of episode 6 (the creepy one) very likely refer to the events that occured in prime - after what was shown in ep 7 tea party. he talks about a horrible memory of a family gathering after which he was dozing off. I already explained what I think the other part of his thoughts refers to (waking up in some unknown room, him&chain locks not going well together). This thing about dozing off is probably about him getting drunk on alcohol in prime, after he saw how his family had been killed. we see battler drinking to forget his worries several times on the game board after (almost) everyone died.
I think that fits well with my speculation that what he remembers while in the closed room is what actually happened on rokkenjima in prime.
I also mentioned that at the end of ep 5 beato refers to prime when she says "I wont let a human be the culprit" or "I knew a man who believed with all of his heart and the suffering he went through after he was forced to abadon this belief". last bit is maybe (here Im less sure) about how Battler didnt believe sayo that his parents shot everyone (that would explain his stubbornness to accept a human culprit in the beginning of the games). those comments also fit well with my speculation "battlers closed-room-memories = events of prime", because like that we already can reconstruct all of the events that happen in prime. and like knox states, we should be able to with the info we're giving in the story
.
I acutally always thought of the closed room of episode 6 as a "reenactment"of the closed room in prime.


completely random (and crazy) thoughts:
1)oh, and just now I thought I could even go that far: that in episode 6 he was saved from his closed room by beato (in form of kanon) would be the opposite to what happened in prime, where she supposedly just left him alone to die in his locked room. and like that they made up for what happened in prime and had a happy ending. I would actually consider that good writing XD well, im only (half) kidding here.
2)but concerning random and baseless theories, I could even go as far as to say the magic ending we see at the end of umineko is the end of Dawn. we would have just jumped the whole eventsof the original plot of dawn and gotten straight to the happy ending. that way battlers "you didnt kill anyone in this world" would fit, cause beato actually didnt kill anyone in the world of Dawn. And this way we never got to read dawn either, cause erika screwed the story up (more or less) or at least beato having lost her memories caused a plot change, so that we only get to see the happy ending of the orginally planned dawn (well at least until beato refuses that ending, it can be considered happy :S). EDIT: now that even explains why he and beato are on such good terms when they leave the island. I always thought the magic ending where they leave rokkenjima is a fantasy interpretation of what really happened in prime. but its strange to think that beato would mean so much to him, after all, his whole family just died and he only spend 1 day max with sayo when they got out of there. but they talk as if they lived together through the whole meta-world. even as a fantasy-interpretation it would twist reality very very much. you'd also have to ask why battler wasnt with eva. now ALL OF THAT is explained if this magic ending is the dawn-ending.
and while Im at it, that would actually explain what he means when in ep 6 he said "the game-board will probably vanish, but I now completely understood magic and I think Im able to bring you out of here". It means: he wrote the magic ending = the dawn ending with his "magic" (ability to write stories or to "create worlds") where he takes Beato away from the island (/gameboard). magic has been associated with the ability to create a world several times after all - the creator witch is the witch that exists on the highest level, right after that come the voyager-witches. EDIT: actually that is quite plausible, Battler said he understood everything about magic, and the highest level a witch can reach is the one of the creator witch, who creates worlds. If Battler states he understood everything, then he is able to create worlds. It also would fit from a storytelling pov - since his development starts from a know-nothing-at-all and someone who is allergical towards magic and finishes when he reaches the hights of a creator witch.
futhermore, that would give us a logical explanation why battler says he is already dead in episode 8 - cause if the magic ending would occur AFTER the events of epsiosde 8 as a normal continuation on the same time-line as it is presented, he wouldnt know that he and beato would die in the end. And like this it also wouldnt violate the red truth "everyone died (in prime)" and would fit with my "battler-locked-room-theory" and with his memories of prime. (but the theory could be adapted here to fit a touya/ikuko ending).
and whats best: both of these thoughts together would even explain why there are two different dawn stories - the one where he "grasped the possibilty" to make beato remember her former self and the one he originally wrote as a happy-ending story where they are able to leave the island thanks to his "magic". It even explains why so much emphasis is put on the dawn story he puts into beatos coffin. and it also explains why the magic ending is called the "magic" ending, because battler was able to get them out of there alive with his "magic" by writing dawn, as he stated he would do in ep 6. and that would make the magic ending the real ending after all, since nohting happens anymore after the events of episode 8 when ange chooses the magic ending. its shown in the VN that they all disappear - everything becomes black and it says stuff like "they would never talk to each other again" .thats the moment the gameboard disappears - exactly as battler mentioned in episode 6. Now all hes got to do is "take Beato out of there". The only story left to tell and by this I mean the only world left is the world created in dawn. all the other endings are just fantasy anyways. so the dawn ending is the real ending. and even more, that would actually explain the title of "dawn", considering they are at the "end of the world". EDIT: even better: dawn refers to the dawn of the third day!! and noone is allowed to ever read dawn cause that would destroy this last story/cat box where they still have the possibility to exist.
and that would ALSO explain why battler talks about the game as being very important to him and beato and why hes so anxious about it. Not only that but that would EVEN explain why battler said he will end everything with this story (he says so in ep 6, well the original plan was that, but he changed it a bit and added ep 8) But he orgininally planned to end the gameboard with dawn and after that to take beato out. that makes sense if the magic ending is the dawn ending. And now (the next part could be revised) IF we assume that the logic error was not what he intended, his reaction towards erika screwing everything up and his efforts to protect the story are quite understandable. the last bit like I said can also be revised to fit a theory where battler DID (somehow) plan the logic error. Id have to think more deeply which version would be more probable. this theory until now fits both versions. its able to solve every contradiction and problems with overlapping layers. and the lyrics riposa in pace nel raconto que ho scritto[...]ecco il mio ultimo incantesimo also fit 100%. Its PAFEKUTOOO!!
Haha, now if that isnt an awesome crack theory I dont know what is XDDDD im 100% kidding here, of course. but I might actually come to believe in my ad-hoc-theory if I go on thinking about this XD

EDIT: Ok, I have done some thinking about it, and I dont think its that crazy anymore actually....now, episode 6 is stating to make some sense...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
In a way you can read his request as 'please, think to a trick to use your piece to get my piece out of that room', which is what Beatrice does. Only we aren't shown how things really went but we got the magic interpetation of Kanon going to rescue.
well, somewhat I even agree here. beato says "Im going to save you know" to which Battler asks "how"? Im not reading too much into that though. btw, we are only partyl shown the magic interpretation, since kanon just closed the door and set the chain and battlers just walks out of there while the magic interpretation is "kanon rescued battler with magic" "Battler turning into butterflies" etc. :S

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
If the book includes Prime truth that's universally known, like that the island exploded there's no problem. If the book includes facts that only a person could have known in Prime and this person is supposedly dead there's to wonder how the author got those info. The books include details only Sayo should know. In the manga it turned out they were in confession but in the VN we didn't have this info.
No no, what I meant is that we NEVER EVER get to know how "Prime" really looks like. We only ever get to see it from the perspective of the book, the way its described in the book. we assume that the prime the way it is depicted in the book=prime, cause that is what the content of the book and touya/ikuko story hints at. but there would be no point in speculating about who knows what in the prime that was part of the story of the book in the first place.



Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I can't really remember that quote being discussed in the past (it might be there's tons of posts) so I can't really offer anything beyond my opinion. Maybe someone has a better theory?
As it stands, my theory is Eva was shot by Sayo in prime. The Ange-story refers to a fragment-world that is part of the book, as well as the Eva is alive part is part of the book, everything is occuring in the same fragment. I now DO believe that Ange is alive even in the real world of that fragment, but I still find it hard to believe that Eva survived in prime when "when the seagulls cry, noone is left alive" is repeated over and over again. its already kind of forced to say beatos red truth in episode 4 refers to the game board. either Ryukishi changed his opinion again or you have to bend your interpretations. the way it is now and it has to be interpreted to fit isnt really "elegant".
it would also mean that eva has been invited to the world of the dead even though she wasnt dead - and she is the dead eva ushiromiya from 1986, after all, the eva ushiromiya from 1998 can only exist if her character changed and she "died" in 1986. battlers "we are all already dead" etc. would also not be correct. but even if we COULD say that the eva in "purgatory" is present and dead because she "died" in 1986, that would make the whole conversation about letting eva take care of ange during the halloween-party meaningless. and it would also not be understandable why Erika says Battler cant invite Ange to his golden land/land of the dead, after all, all you'd need to do is change your character to be present there. and ange did just that, she "died" in 1998. Sooooo confusing...Im sorry, I just had to write my thoughts to that.
Well, guess we gotta wait.

Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-03-11 at 17:06.
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Old 2015-03-11, 08:09   Link #34929
Leslie Chow
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Quote:
In Rosa's case we've the problem that Nanjo isn't feeling guilty, he knows Rosa was involved in Beatrice's death (and he felt guilty toward Beatrice), the money arrives to his house/relatives after the incident has happened so he didn't know about it.
And before having Rosa own money we still have to explain how she was in poor economical conditions.
There is a hint that Nanjo is aware that he knows about the money. In EP3, he wrote the numbers 07151129 on the parlor. She was poor economical conditions, but she could have easily solve. She chose not to. I could account for this in EP8 Chapter 25 when Beatrice said that there was an unseen option (namely taking responsibility as an adult).

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In short he served Sayo out of guilt but if another was made the head he might have decided to retire. He's old enough and was likely the one best paid (just the Fukuin servants get paid quite a lot) so it's not like he had to obey Rosa.
He did say in one of the episodes that the fate of furniture depends on the choices of the Ushiromiya family.

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Battler is also not weak. It's implied he's the physically stronger among the cousins and that he apparently went through his share of fights. He also trains regularly. We don't know if among the sports he makes there's also some fighting discipline or it's just physical exercise. In Ep 1 is Battler who manages to break the door enough for the cousins to get out and reach Natsuhi, not George.
We know George learnt martial arts but not if he's still training at them.
I'll say they could put up an interesting fight. George though would have to face two opponents and anyway gohda might not even know George is trained in martial arts so he wouldn't even consider being wary of him. Gohda is the new guy after all.
So the problem is in EP4. I could have an alternative solution for that. Rosa bribed Gohda that if he pretended that there was a magical scene going on she would give him a gold bar. Unfortunately for Gohda, Rosa killed people and eventually him and Kumasawa, either directly from her or George.

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Kinzo was never called senile though but it was always stated he was sharp. In Sayotrice he even figured out that Sayo was the baby and that's why he set up the epitaph. We know all the scenes in which we see him raving are fantasies placed after he died. Before becoming a dead shut in he was still sharp enough, even if prone to outburst of emotions which could range from overly complaining/whining over his children to beat and insult them to the point of abuse. He wants to be forgiven but he wants to be forgiven by Beatrice through Lion.
If we are going with Rosatrice, almost everything about EP7 and CotGW is an illusion, but represents something. And since we are going with Rosatrice, Lion is already dead. Kinzo became more obsessed with the occult and he might have given up in it eventually and wanted forgiveness, even if it wasn't Lion.

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You remember wrong. Rosa met Beatrice only once and when she did she lead her out of her house and Beatrice died. Beatrice didn't mention having a child and Rosa judged her pretty immature and more close to a child than to an adult.
It is possible that Rosa ommited some parts of it. Since Beatrice is sheltered she wouldn't know what is acceptable to say in public and in private. Children, if they learn something regardless of whether it is acceptable or not, tend to blurt out stuff. Heck even children today say sexual stuff because of exposure to it (internet porn). Since Kinzo sexually abused her, she is thus exposed to it and it may seem normal to her, so we can't rule out the possibility that she said to Rosa that she was having sex to Kinzo and had a baby. She might have said it in a naive and airheaded way that it might've given Rosa the impression that Beatrice was like a child.

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But we all know that Kanon in that scene was fantasy, that he was being controlled by Beatrice (and it would be odd for Beato to pin the blame on herself) and that ultimately he was lying.
That is a bold claim right there. We both know that in both the meta-world, real world and fantasy worlds that Beatrice wants it to be known that she is the killer. She even claims it a number of times throughout the Question Arcs. Just because it is a fantasy, it doesn't mean it is useless and it should account for something. Van Dine 16th! There is no need to include depictions that exceed the necessary in a story.

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If Sayo hands her feelings to Beatrice she just push them in a corner of her mind. If Sayo hands her feelings to another person... how would it work, really? She forces them on Rosa?
It is not meant to be taken literally. Since we are only shown this in EP7, which is mostly fantasy, it should account for something. In Game 2, Rosa and Shannon were hinted to have hung out and had tea together. Blue truth: In one of their sessions, Shannon broke in tears and Rosa allowed Shannon to let it all out on her. Thus we could say that she transferred all of her feelings toward Battler to Rosa. This doesn't mean literally. It just means that Rosa was willing to hear all about it and that she was there for Shannon. You know like how a girl is there for her girlfriend and letting her let it all out.

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In Ep 2 Beatrice is clearly disgusted by male lust and use it as a way to demean Shannon and George's love by claiming George only lusted after her (which the sub meaning that if George were to know the truth about her he would be disgusted).
Again this is from the Sayotrice perspective. This is what Beatrice said: "Love is lust! Men are just flies and maggots who get charmed by your female scent and swarm around you! You'll be disappointed when you catch a glimpse of the dark lust that glasses guy behind you holds even once!"

Yes the part about disappointed could account for Sayotrice, since Sayo would be disappointed that she doesn't have a vagina. But because it wasn't really specific, you could even translate what Beatrice said as an experience and that she is nothing but a bitter and jealous person. And as I have stated before, Rosa couldn't keep a boyfriend and Maria's father left her. They merely cum and dump on Rosa then left. Hence why she was disappointed, because Maria's father left her with a kid and a debt and the guy from Hokkaido did not meet her expectations and didn't want to be with her.

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Beatrice's view of sex is based on men lusting for women, keeping them trapped and abusing them. She acts like she can control it (which she said she did by killing herself) but I wouldn't say it's a person who looks like she apprecciates making love and in fact it's said she learnt to apprecciate it after her marriage with Battler.
This is from a fantasy and meta-world perspective of sorts. In the meta-world, for both theories, we both have to accept that several views of several characters of a person X defines that person in the meta-world. We both know that the Beatrice that died is not the Beatrice of 1986, and yet we get a magical perspective that they are the same person. For example, Kinzo, who was stated in red to have never cared about Natsuhi acted as a father figure of sorts to Natsuhi in the meta-world and fantasy world. It is interesting to note that Rosa talked to Beatrice as if she were already friends with her in the Halloween Party in EP8, almost as if this was the Kuwadorian Beatrice.

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Ep 2 has Shannon and Beato being friends for a short time. In Ep 3 Kanon, having been resurrected by Beato admits he is in debt with her, a debt he'll pay in Ep 6. Beatrice is more or less the representation of the ID, the part of personality made up of unconscious energy that is focuses on fulfilling urges and desires.
In fact she's the one who hands Shannon the broch to fulfil her wish and tempts Kanon with the same item. Like everything in Umineko it's not necessarily bad, provided your urges and desires are a positive thing. When Sayo turns to self hate Beatrice, instead than helping her, starts harming her.
Ignoring Beatrice (which Shannon does in Ep 2) means ignoring her true wishes, denying yourself.
Submitting to Beatrice (which Kanon does) means allowing yourself to follow your desires regardless of them being bad or good.
Again Sayotrice perspective. If we look at the fantasy scene, they could be interpreted in any way. This could also work for Rosatrice as well. It is like the cheese analogy that you mentioned in EP6.

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The problem would be that Battler met also Kinzo. Since Genji remains outside this would means that either Rosa plays the role of Beatrice and Kinzo switching costumes really fast, Maria plays the role of Kinzo or it's a fantasy scene.
But the best hint this is a fantasy scene is that the room is filled with golden butterflies.
Same logic in the magical scene in EP4. In EP4, the culprit was in the dining hall along with Kinzo. But because we already know that Kinzo is dead, then the culprit must've been someone who inherited Kinzo's name and thus Kinzo can be perceived as a separate being in the magical scenes.

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That was Will's solution. It wasn't fantasy.
Nothing is objective about EP7 at all. Willard is a fantasy character himself who happened to solve Beatrice's riddles with just the four games. But let's go how it would fare against Rosatrice. Let's say Willard's solution is Rosatrice. But then he gets told of a different story in a fantasy way of storytelling if I may add that the servant girl is the culprit rather than Rosa. Of course, since this is a Core Arc, and Willard did claim it was just extras to get a better understanding, then with EP7, he more or less got the whole picture that Rosa is created a character and pinned the blame on Shannon out of bitterness and jealousy. He is also a fantasy character, so I doubt that a fantasy setting would fool him, since throughout the series, all fantasy characters are aware of the real world and what they themselves represent. Also, we are shown pictures of what Rosa may view is the solution, which is Sayotrice itself. This could account as to why CotGW is the way it is. She is scapegoating Shannon out of jealousy and she is using her as the vessel of "Yasu" so to speak. After all, isn't Clair=Yasu (who is also a fictional character by the way)? And since Willard did get the whole picture at this point, shouldn't we say that while solving the solutions that not only does he confirm Rosatrice, but was merely thinking about what Clair's "solution" or point of view on how things played out? Also, what is there to stop the idea that in the manga, that as Willard solved Beatrice's riddle that what we are shown is Clair's thoughts rather than Willard? Because it looks to me that it could be either Willard or Clair who is visualizing it. But because we are talking Rosatrice here, let's say Clair.

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The problem is that Yasu's situation and Rosa's situation as presented are totally different. Yasu's backstory becomes a complete work of fantasy and I can't even figure why Rosa would create Yasu in the first place as Yasu can be many things but not a support for Rosa or a representation of Rosa's life.
Clair emphasised the idea "I am one yet many". While this supports Sayotrice, this can also support Rosatrice. With Rosatrice, we are shown the different sides of Rosa. The inferior Rosa, the black witch, "Kinzo", and Yasu (the character she created to scapegoat Shannon which was shown in EP7). So this begs the question, why would Rosa create Yasu? Throughout the Question Arcs, we are shown Kinzo wanting to revive Beatrice. While this may apply to the real Kinzo, this should also be possible for the current "Kinzo", as the Kinzo shown throughout the Question Arcs should also symbolize the current "Kinzo". With this kind of reasoning, we should be able to say that she wants to revive Beatrice as well out of guilt and she did this in a convoluted and symbolic way by also adding some stuff about her life as well as scapegoating Shannon out of jealousy.

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Thanks! I'm having fun discussing as well so thank you for making the forum lively again.
It really is a lively forum again! Other people even joined in, both old and new. We also got people like Inbuiltx9 who also shares some interesting ideas about the series. Who knows? Maybe the other members might even share interesting ideas as well. Umineko is really good for your brain chakra, unlike most anime, manga and visual novels nowadays.
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Old 2015-03-11, 09:35   Link #34930
haguruma
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I don't even want to go too far into the Rosatrice theories here, but I want to ask four questions:
If Rosatrice was a thing like it is portrayed now,
(1) Why is it Battler's fault that people die according to EP4 Beato?
(2) Why is it a game that Beatrice created for Battler's sake according to EP4, 5? (3) Why would Battler feel guilty for Rosa going crazy about loneliness and money?
(4) Why would it have changed anything if Battler had arrived one year earlier or later?

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Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
So everything fits well together if we just assume - as it is explicitly stated - that it is meta-battlers soul that is in the locked room and that spend years in there. We dont need to postulate this third layer.
THIS is what I actually wanna talk about, since it gave me a fascinating idea about EP6 and its structure. I wouldn't even say it is Meta-Battler's soul in a locked room, I'd say it is Battler in the head of Hachij˘ T˘ya and EP6 actually tried to foreshadow his existence much more than I thought about before.

What is the basic disconnect between the meta-story and the 1998 story? Two different people created Dawn of the Golden Witch! The story in 1998 that is handed to Ange was written by Hachij˘ T˘ya, who appears as a middle-aged woman who we learn is also a witch. The story that plays out on the gameboard though is created by Meta-Battler, who ends up being trapped in his own story.

Now Battler is only able to escape the locked room when his "new Beatrice" takes on the memory of the old Beato and becomes able to free him from his dilemma. Locked-room Battler is characterized by being very frightened, not knowing his location, a storm happening outside (something that T˘ya mentioned frightened him subconsciously), and generally feeling lost and confused.
While EP5 was about Battler coming to terms with who Beato was and then trying to take all the blame from everybody including her, EP6 is about him understanding the merrit of "the witch Beatrice" when he fails at protecting everyone without blaming anybody. It is a process that Hachij˘ T˘ya would have likely went through.
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Old 2015-03-11, 15:04   Link #34931
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The difference is that it is possible for Beato to state a red truth where Kanon is dead and Shannon is still running around alive, or where Beatos states that Shannon is dead and Kanon is still around. They have the same body, yet they count as different personalities. Whats going on in her head is irrelevant in this case. The third personality that can be alive even if Shannon and Kanon are dead is Sayo- thats why in the manga Battler can say Shannon and Kanon didnt call Natsuhi in Ep 5, to what Erika answers "its the same as with ther murder of Nanjo"
But...there is no difference, because 'Shannon dressing up as Kanon' IS Kanon. The entire point of those reds is to point out the subjective existence of the two of them, and thus how Yasu's personal world is constructed. It also means that Shannon and Kanon can be 'revived'.

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Like I said, it is possbile to see it that way, but there was nothing that hinted at that. I doubt she could even, because that relates to laws in Japan as a whole, even if she could do it, since she left everything to the the company I dont know where her connections would come from. Yes of course, Okonogi could have arranged everything, but there is never mentioned anything at all that hints at that. we only have the red truth that she died.
There's plenty of evidence. An entire epilogue. Like...you read it. It was there. Ange fakes her death and takes on a pseudonym. What more do you need?

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Its clearly stated that Lambda and Bern exist on a higher plane than the game master and Erika is Berns piece. The same way Beato couldnt control everything that happened (else the whole story looses its purpose because Battlers decisions and mistakes would have always been Beatos) Battler isnt omnipotent either. If he was, he could control everything, he could make Beato remember everything, and thats his problem in the first place... But maybe I just dont remember - where was it heavily implied? (honest question) I remember two quotes or something, but noting implies he planned "absolutely everything".
Battler's EP6 TIP says that as a Territory Lord, he's on a higher plane than basically everybody. Lambdadelta and Bernkastel might be on a higher plane than him, but Erika is explicitly not regardless of who her master is; she's basically JUST A Piece, despite her heightened self-awareness.

Beatrice or Battler forcing issues like you suggest undercut their emotional reasons for doing so in the first place, but just like Beatrice wanted Battler to remember on his own, Battler wants the same for Beato. The act of remembering is a personal proof that validates their hearts and hopes, and it's implied that the Logic Error was part of Battler's plans for helping Beatrice remember him.

This is supported in Episode 8, when he shows genuine surprise that anything happened on the gameboard that he didn't know about, because there was a second Gamemaster. This isn't the case in episode 6, implying that despite letting Erika do as she pleased, he KNEW what she was doing even if she didn't announce them until later. He didn't control her, but she played into his hands.

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I know they are different. Thats my whole point XD Theres the dawn he wrote at the beginning of episode 6 about which he wondered if he could show it to Beato. And theres the dawn as Episode 6 played out. Unless he is better than Beato and wrote two stories at the same time without telling anyone, the way episode 6 turned out was at least not fully planned. and now, both episode 6 and the book he writes for beato are called dawn. its really much more logical to think episode 6 is dawn just with some radical changes. I dont know if he spontaneously decided to include the logic error or not. Since my most important argument isnt refuted yet, there is not much that leads me to believe he did- some hints are there yes, but they arent strong.
No, the story at the beginning isn't any iteration of Dawn; it's an entirely different narrative he wasn't going to show anyone, at all, period. He never even calls it Dawn.

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Well yes XD But the bomb wont explode ever if the time doesnt advance - or else Kannon wouldnt have to think hell spend eternity in the closed room.
This is kind of a Zeno's Paradox. Even though it will take an infinite time to reach that moment, the bomb will explode. Just because I put down a book on page 13 and never read to page 20, doesn't mean the events of page 20 don't happen. The red is valid.
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Old 2015-03-11, 15:17   Link #34932
Jaden
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Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
What a shame really. When Kanon revealed his name it really felt like a huge step for him, and I always expected the revelation to be a "holy crap that is you!"-moment, so it was a bummer that this never really came up anymore.
Hey, it's still kind of a clue that it was difficult for Kanon to give Jessica his real name. Kanon was created when he was already out of the orphanage and working. He had no need for a real name. Maybe he had to come up with his own name on the spot for Jessica.
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Old 2015-03-11, 17:42   Link #34933
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
THIS is what I actually wanna talk about, since it gave me a fascinating idea about EP6 and its structure. I wouldn't even say it is Meta-Battler's soul in a locked room, I'd say it is Battler in the head of Hachij˘ T˘ya and EP6 actually tried to foreshadow his existence much more than I thought about before.
I like your theory, especially the point about the storm...Actually when I learnt of touya/ikuko the first thing that came to mind was that you can read the closed room in ep 6 as a metaphor for battler situation with touya - unable to control his body and locked in a "closed room" that he cant get out from. since this parallels are pretty striking, I can only think that we are supposed to see that as a metaphor. So I agree with you on that one, BUT I want to add somehing...

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
What is the basic disconnect between the meta-story and the 1998 story? Two different people created Dawn of the Golden Witch! The story in 1998 that is handed to Ange was written by Hachij˘ T˘ya, who appears as a middle-aged woman who we learn is also a witch. The story that plays out on the gameboard though is created by Meta-Battler, who ends up being trapped in his own story.

Now Battler is only able to escape the locked room when his "new Beatrice" takes on the memory of the old Beato and becomes able to free him from his dilemma. Locked-room Battler is characterized by being very frightened, not knowing his location, a storm happening outside (something that T˘ya mentioned frightened him subconsciously), and generally feeling lost and confused.
While EP5 was about Battler coming to terms with who Beato was and then trying to take all the blame from everybody including her, EP6 is about him understanding the merrit of "the witch Beatrice" when he fails at protecting everyone without blaming anybody. It is a process that Hachij˘ T˘ya would have likely went through.
I think we should read it as a metaphor of touya, but that doesnt really affect the world of the book. I really say "world" and I mean "world", because thats how it is presented over and over in umineko. the "stories" beato writes in ep 1-4 are small worlds and the pieces in those stories have emotions. ikuko too later states that she creates worlds.

So what happens on the ikuko/touya layer somehow gives the world a structure and from an outside perspective you could even say its influencing the story of the book. From the inside perspective though the characters exist on their own, have their own free will etc. Its as if you'd say there is a god that creates everything, that still wouldnt change the fact that you're acting on your own if we observe the world from the inside (I have the permission to use metaphysical concepts - Im completely in line with the concepts presented in Umineko :P) So I really dont see a problem that there are two people writing a story simultaneously. In the world of the book, Battler writes Dawn. In the world of the "gods", as Lambda calls Featherine, Ikuko/Touya are writing it. (problems only arise when this "god" writes itself into the story, but I wont go into that now :S, but its one of the reasons I still havent completely accepted the touya/ikuko reality as a reality yet)

So while with Touya/Ikuko you read it as a metaphor, in the world of the book, its just meta-battler. the reason why I thought like that is the following: he has those experiences in the room that are exactly the same as what happened in the meta before. He "meets" Bern there and he sees the red truths when he is in the "creepy" room. the scene with the window and his ring-finger, when he mentions he shoudnt go into the closet... everything shows that its meta-battler experiencing that. And he is -probably (cause these thought refer to nothing if not and prime would be unsolvable without those thoughts) - thinking about what happened in prime. So I read the closed room even as a new version of what happened in prime.

random thoughts:
also there are some scenes where he thinks "I wont die I wont die" before going to the closed room in ep6, which somehow seemed to refer to two things at the same time, that made me think that the prime-battler even might have still been alive at that point in time...well that was just me...,..Im probably completely wrong with this. but it WOULD further support the fact that its meta-battler in that room, cause hes the "spirit body of a human" as Lambda says in the manga.



actually, there were several times when the comments/events that happened were meant to take place on two layers - a direct one and a metaphorical one:
-when Bern is talking to battler in the ???? of the first and second episode she also talks to us viewers
-the whole "you've gotta trust in the author, try to use knox" in ep 5 was also adressed primarily at battler and metaphorically to the viewer
-the whole 8th episode is pretty much just a giant insult to the viewers XD I admit I was one of those goats :P
-some read the episodes even as a form for Touya to regain his memories (Im not COMPLETELY convinced yet that Touya and Ikuko really "exist"- I mean "reality-exist", not "book-world-exist" though)

seems to me ryukishi really likes ambiguous story-telling. So imo its both true at the same time - its a metaphor for Touya, but in the world of the book its just purely meta-battler.




while Im at it with all this touya/ikuko and book-world stuff, there is something I really cant grasp all that well and that is pretty complicated. Id be really happy if someone could help here:
I suppose: the world we are shown in umineko is the world of a book. WITHIN! this book, we are always shown bits and pieces of prime, and prime is referred to several times in the book. the most striking scene being the tea party in episode 7, which is also told within the book. THAT MEANS: the prime took part in the book-world as well. It might be the same prime as in the non-book-reality and we're heavily lead to think that (I think so too) but it doesnt change the fact that prime is part of the book-story itself. So NOW:
its obvious that the magic ending didnt occur like that, Im talking about the battler/beato scene, its a fantasy even though its presented as being an interpretation of prime. But at the same time we are led to believe that this scene also is part of the book. Its HAS TO BE PART OF THE BOOK, because battler and beato are referring to events that happened in the book-story before. no battler/sayo from the real world could EVER refer to events that happened in a book that wasnt written by that point in time. And the fantasy-scenes are all part of the book anyways. But if that argument for whatever reason is not convincing enough: Its even shown that featherine is writing that part ((which does not contradict my crack-theory btw XD)). So question until here: is that prime? is that book-world prime? is that just a continuation of the book-story without any reference to prime at all? Im HEAVILY tending towards the latter. Anyways, what is really complicated is the following: in this book-scene!!!, battler seperates into two persons - the one that drowns and the one that goes on living (presumably as touya). BUT: remember this scene takes place INSIDE THE BOOK. Meaning INSIDE THE WORLD OF THE BOOK there is a battler that survives that becomes touya. but that would actually make us question the very first premise that everything happens inside a book, because the book is writing itself in this sense. the touya in the book would write a story about himself in which once again a touya would be created in the book-world, that writes about...etc. But the answer cant be: So what? The book simply ends after the magic ending. Thats because the book goes on until we see the ending scene with Ange, which must be part of the book because Ange couldnt refer to scenes that happened in the book (witches and red-truths in Episode 8) if she was real-life Ange. So with the Battler/beato scene everything is getting mixed up. I dont really get it. if ryukishi wanted to create a featherine-like paradoxon here where beginning and end are connected - well done. I dont think so though. and i wonder how you're supposed to explain that with the touya/ikuko explanation we have until now.

Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-03-11 at 18:56.
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Old 2015-03-11, 21:17   Link #34934
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
THIS is what I actually wanna talk about, since it gave me a fascinating idea about EP6 and its structure. I wouldn't even say it is Meta-Battler's soul in a locked room, I'd say it is Battler in the head of Hachij˘ T˘ya and EP6 actually tried to foreshadow his existence much more than I thought about before.

What is the basic disconnect between the meta-story and the 1998 story? Two different people created Dawn of the Golden Witch! The story in 1998 that is handed to Ange was written by Hachij˘ T˘ya, who appears as a middle-aged woman who we learn is also a witch. The story that plays out on the gameboard though is created by Meta-Battler, who ends up being trapped in his own story.

Now Battler is only able to escape the locked room when his "new Beatrice" takes on the memory of the old Beato and becomes able to free him from his dilemma. Locked-room Battler is characterized by being very frightened, not knowing his location, a storm happening outside (something that T˘ya mentioned frightened him subconsciously), and generally feeling lost and confused.
While EP5 was about Battler coming to terms with who Beato was and then trying to take all the blame from everybody including her, EP6 is about him understanding the merrit of "the witch Beatrice" when he fails at protecting everyone without blaming anybody. It is a process that Hachij˘ T˘ya would have likely went through.
In a way it's a fascinating theory. So Locked-Room Battler could be an hint to Tohya/the Battler inside Tohya prior to reading Confession and, once he received Confession (and, I guess, remembering a decent amount from his past), he was freed from his cage.
Well, the parallel work. Early locked-room Battler can't remember how he ended up in the locked room, which can be a hint to memory less Tohya, to escape tot he locked room he even tried to harm himself and devasted the room, which can be a hint to Tohya's fits and how he ended up on a wheelchair.
As Kanon reaches him he's aware of his role again, which might be a hint to him recovering his memory.
Kanon encourages him to go back because there's a person fighting in his place (Beato) and one who's waiting for his return (Ange). It can be a hint to how Ikuko had to support him or to how the catbox was held together only by the forgeries Sayo left behind and to how Tohya should collect his courage and try and reach Ange somehow (though it's interesting how in Ep 8 Battler will admit that he is dead and can't go back to Ange).
Kanon remaining trapped in the locked room and disappearing could be a parallel to how Sayo's story was erased. Her confession is not made public and the truth remains hidden. It's possible to guess the trick used to trap Kanon in the room and make him disappear but ultimately Kanon won't be rescued. It can also be a hint to how Sayo died so even if Battler is now free he can't go back to save her (as said in Ep 7 he remembered but it was too late).

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Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
There is a hint that Nanjo is aware that he knows about the money. In EP3, he wrote the numbers 07151129 on the parlor. She was poor economical conditions, but she could have easily solve. She chose not to. I could account for this in EP8 Chapter 25 when Beatrice said that there was an unseen option (namely taking responsibility as an adult).
Nanjo couldn't have written it. The number was written by Sayo. Nanjo was in the guesthouse with the others and couldn't have left it.
The whole discussion in chap 25 refers to Prime. You've to reject Eva's diary and it's truth if you want to push a Rosatrice theory on Prime. In it Beatrice and Rosa are clearly 2 different people.

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Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
He did say in one of the episodes that the fate of furniture depends on the choices of the Ushiromiya family.
I'll need a bit of contest to judge this one but this doesn't mean he could stop being a furniture any time he wanted and retire. He was old enough and even Natsuhi said she thought about letting him go on retirement but was forced to ask him to stay to keep up the mummery with Kinzo.
Genji is not so helplessly in the hands of the Ushiromiya. He owns his loyalty to Kinzo, his best friend and saviour but he might decide he owns nothing to Rosa.

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Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
So the problem is in EP4. I could have an alternative solution for that. Rosa bribed Gohda that if he pretended that there was a magical scene going on she would give him a gold bar. Unfortunately for Gohda, Rosa killed people and eventually him and Kumasawa, either directly from her or George.
I think we're stumbling on the same problem over and over. You build theories assuming a certain premise is accepted, Rosa solved the epitaph, got the gold, decided she wanted to stage a mystery murder game and then did this, this and this.

While yes, accepting the theory that Gohda was bribed is logic, believable and well, the intended solution, we go back to the fact that the premise (Rosa solving the epitaph, getting the gold and deciding to stage the mystery murder game in which she kills everyone and so on) it's not looking believable.
So maybe the best way to go at it would be discussing the premise instead than the murders case by case.

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Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
It is possible that Rosa ommited some parts of it. Since Beatrice is sheltered she wouldn't know what is acceptable to say in public and in private. Children, if they learn something regardless of whether it is acceptable or not, tend to blurt out stuff. Heck even children today say sexual stuff because of exposure to it (internet porn). Since Kinzo sexually abused her, she is thus exposed to it and it may seem normal to her, so we can't rule out the possibility that she said to Rosa that she was having sex to Kinzo and had a baby. She might have said it in a naive and airheaded way that it might've given Rosa the impression that Beatrice was like a child.
It's more likely that Kinzo referred to it as 'his black magic ritual' as he did in Ep 7 than that he said to her he was having sex with her. We're in 1967, Rosa is young and not exposed. Beatrice is uncomfortable with what's being done with her and doesn't really understand it well. I don't really see as likely she casually blurted out what Kinzo did with her and Rosa jumped to the idea she had a child.

In addition we stumble back to another problem of Rosatrice. It increases the amount of falsehood and lack of info in the tale exponentially.


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Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
That is a bold claim right there. We both know that in both the meta-world, real world and fantasy worlds that Beatrice wants it to be known that she is the killer. She even claims it a number of times throughout the Question Arcs. Just because it is a fantasy, it doesn't mean it is useless and it should account for something. Van Dine 16th! There is no need to include depictions that exceed the necessary in a story.
I thought we ruled out Van Dine but anyway Beatrice wants people to guess her identity, she's not planning to confess it. Kanon is pushing the blame on Rosa in the same way in which in Ep 3 the blame was pushed on Eva.
In the official solution the accomplice in Ep 2 is Rosa, in Ep 3 is Eva.
Like Battler in Ep 5, they're used to hide the true culprit.
Kanon's declaration is just a red herring to push us toward the wrong culprit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
It is not meant to be taken literally. Since we are only shown this in EP7, which is mostly fantasy, it should account for something. In Game 2, Rosa and Shannon were hinted to have hung out and had tea together. Blue truth: In one of their sessions, Shannon broke in tears and Rosa allowed Shannon to let it all out on her. Thus we could say that she transferred all of her feelings toward Battler to Rosa. This doesn't mean literally. It just means that Rosa was willing to hear all about it and that she was there for Shannon. You know like how a girl is there for her girlfriend and letting her let it all out.
Again, you've to better work the premise. This is only possible if we accept that the Beatrice Shannon talked with was Rosa who, contrary to her self centered characterization, decided to take care of a poor servant against which she'll say horrible things in Ep 2 when she doesn't know how to take care of her own child and emphatized with her so much she took upon herself Shannon's feelings.

Hum... I'm skipping your other points not because they aren't interesting but because they stumbled in the problem mentioned before.
Rosatrice requires to basically discharge too much and claim it's just fantasy or an interpretation or that we're missing bits.

I guess until the VN was out some of them could work even if they seemed the most complicate and roundabout choice but as all the additional info were laid bare it becomes hard for me to repaint everything we were already confirmed was true in such a radical way as the Rosatrice AU doesn't even seem as catching to me as the Sayotrice version.

That's why I think that before discussing tricks and magic scenes interpretation Rosatrice needs a better basis to work. As long as the premise that pushed Rosa to do all this doesn't seem believable to me, not only the solutions to tricks that require this premise feel weak and unbelievable but the same applies to the magic scenes that require a certain interpretation.

And mind you, until the Sayotrice premise wasn't better explained I complained against some of what seemed weak points of it as well, even when it was already made official.

So for me it's not just a matter of official vs unofficial, it a matter of good premises vs not good premise.

When the Rosatrice's premise will be worked in such way I'll manage to say 'well, yes, I can totally see Rosa doing that' I'll probably manage to be more open to interpretations that go against canon. As it stands it just seems unbelievable.

Sorry about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
It really is a lively forum again! Other people even joined in, both old and new. We also got people like Inbuiltx9 who also shares some interesting ideas about the series. Who knows? Maybe the other members might even share interesting ideas as well. Umineko is really good for your brain chakra, unlike most anime, manga and visual novels nowadays.
Yes, Umineko is awesome. It was a pity when the forum went silent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaden View Post
Hey, it's still kind of a clue that it was difficult for Kanon to give Jessica his real name. Kanon was created when he was already out of the orphanage and working. He had no need for a real name. Maybe he had to come up with his own name on the spot for Jessica.
Yes, in a way it's a big hint. If you ever think at it, when Jessica asked him, it might have felt to Kanon as if she was asking him the truth about himself, admitting he was Sayo and all... maybe he had even hoped she had figured out and was still willing to accept him... but then she goes and suggest him to create another identity... when technically Kanon isn't the original but another identity created by Sayo... and proves she hadn't understood the truth about him at all.
Ironically, if Kanon were to reveal to Jessica his real name, it would mean he would destroy himself if he were to consider it as 'Yasuda Sayo/Shannon' and would destroy any chance he could have to a relationship with her if he were to consider it 'Ushiromiya Lion'.
Either way Kanon can't reveal his true name.
I like how the name he gave is Sayo spelled backwards in japanese, while adding an ôiö (for ôai/loveö, for ôwithout love it canĺt be be seenö).
It's as if he's telling Jessica that he's the other side of Sayo and that can be seen only with love.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
Thing is, the Ange we meet is always the Ange from the book. if we're leaving the scene in the hospital with eva aside, there are only scenes of ange that relate to the meta. and since the meta is supposed to be written by Touya/Ikuko it just is not possible that this occured in the "real reality". In that sense, what other ending could we hope for for "Ange"? Its far more meaningful to have a happy ending for the ange of the book-world than for a real-life Ange we (probably) never met.
Ep 8 however was a whole message of 'please live' that was supposed to reach the real Ange. Just saving piece Ange doesn't mean much for me. The message is powerful because it reached the real Ange somehow.
Tohya building his own happy fantasy of saving Ange is meaningful only if Ange can be saved by his tales, if this possibility exist. Otherwise it's just pointless fantasy.

Yes, we don't know real Ange. Technically we don't know anyone real as they're all pieces apart from Tohya. But there's a real Ange, a real Ange that has suffered through those years. And for me she's more important than her piece form.
Maybe that's just me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
I dont remember either, but the point was that Ange learnt resurrection, not how Bern didnt know how the golden truth works, which by the point of episode 8 I doubt she doenst, cause its stated more or less that she has understood all the games before.
What was being discussed was why Bern was surprised. Bern was surprised because she didn't figure Ange could use gold to defeat her red. And in fact Bern didn't understand it. Here there's the bit in the manga:

Quote:
Bern: What is this Golden Truth?! What is your Golden Truth...that it can win against the Red Truth...??!!?

Ange: A heart that trusts. That is ôourô consensus. Against the truth that we agreed on and share, even your Red Truth is powerless. You see, true and proper magic can only be used by those who understood to accept reality. You cannot break my heart with Red now that it has overcome the truth!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
its forced reasoning to say death can refer to a death somewhere in the future, cause that would make the game-boards unsolvable. again, ultimate explanation - he made a mistake XD (joking)
LOL, in game 5 the characters are declared dead in red... but their dead happened not when expected but later on. So I guess if this is the right solution it was even hinted by Ep 5. In ???? we've Ikuko who has already met Ange so technically it's 1998. Eva is dead, Ange is going to Rokkenjima where she'll be killed. No one is going to remain alive. But well, a lack of official interpretation allows you to interpret it as you prefer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
Sorry, I dont get what you say here
The whole discussion was about how Tohya could write the truth about Sayo's backstory.
He can put in his tale the info about Rudolf switching the babies because it's common knowledge in the future but how would he know that Sayo had an immaginary friend named Gaap? Or that she played a prank to Berune? That Kumasawa covered up for her saying a kitten broke the vase?
Without knowing he found Sayo's confession we're left with three possibilities:
- he made up a lot of things ergo Ep 7 isn't actually telling us Sayo's true backstory but a fantasy backstory Tohya made up for her... which as you can guess is disappointing.
- before leaving Rokkenjima he had a long chat with Sayo in which she told him the whole story of her life in details... and even though he still hadn't recovered his memory in full he managed to remember it all. It feels unlikely but possible.
- Sayo survived and when he managed to remember everything the two faced each other and she explained him his backstory. The whole chat was trasposed in Umineko in the symbolic form of Ep 7. At the time possibly the best explanation but now obsolete as Tohya just has to read the confession to know the whole story without needing Sayo to be alive to tell him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
Im completely fine with this interpretation. He SOMEWHAT planned this or something similar to happen- because thats exactly the info we get. I think you used a nice formulation he "saw the possibility and caught it". thats certainly possible.
But him being an a*** to beato, him saying to Erika-one of the main goals of the game- he wants to go all out with her and then holding back (well he DID win in the end, but he took a huge risk according to the expected miracle, if wed like to follow the reasoning that he planned the logic error),and him asking genji about the logic error AFTER he finished the story "oh, a logic error? what is that? please tell me genji, i just used that in my giant master plan against erika, but please explain it again so I can fool mr. nobody that is watching us two talking in this room all alone". but most importantly, he would have even had to fake his THOUGHTS in the course of playing dawn, what would be the point of that????
well, we can of course say that what was stated later doesnt fit with what happened in episode 6, so its a mistake or judged from a story-line encompassing POV (since its Bern, this is my preferred interpretation) but imo there was never clearly stated that he planned it all from start to finish so Im not too hung up on that.
Well, in Ep 3 Beato and Virgilia deliberately fooled us with the wind and sun strategy so I wouldn't discharge this but what I was trying to say is that Battler planned a storyline.
After planning it he learnt some things like that something like a logic error existed so he has to be wary of it in his battle with Erika and that he hadn't resurrected the real Beato.
Learning of the logic error he might have figured Erika would be interested in going for it... or he might have figured later on.
However, as the situation evolved, he decided to let Erika believe he had trapped him into one.
He accepted to revise the plot, after all, so he might have figured Erika's plan and to play along with it only when Erika pushed for some duck tape.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
(random thought: him showing he understood beatos heart is already accomplished when they have the love duel, and "understanding magic" imo doesnt refer to kanon/shannon tricks - those are TRICKS after all, but to the ability to "decorate" the truth and accept it as truth) EDIT: after my awesome crack-theory I just came up with while writing this post - "understanding magic" of course refers to his ability to create new worlds XD
Well, Beato wanted Battler to understand the truth about her heart. Her heart is basically Shkanon. Yes, if you want it's also that she can decorate truth but the main core is Shkanon.

Now... about the Battler in the room thing.

At the start of Ep 6 Bern talking to Battler asks him:

Quote:
The groom......didn't answer.
His eyes were gray.
......His lips would mutter something from time to time, but no one could tell if the words meant anything.
"Hey, ......are you listening...? All of you?"
She spoke to the groom in the plural.
......Of course, there was only one groom.
As I see it this is a hint that there are 2 Battler, the Meta one and the trapped in the room one. Meta Battler is the GM and is sort of moving the locked-room Battler in his mind.
In a way, as MetaBattler is solely focused on this, it's as if he's also trapped in the room.
Differently from Featherine that dropped Bern, her piece, in a logic error from which Bern had to find a way out on her own, MetaBattler can not let the logic error go unsolved. He has to get PieceBattler out of that room that now is frozen in time.

Through the whole game people refers to PieceBattler as if he and MetaBattler were one and the same for example:
Quote:
"But Battler-san, even if you can place the letter somehow, how are you going to make your corpse vanish afterwards? ......The guest room is sealed. If you don't find a trick to erase the corpse from the closed room right now, a logic error will occur."
Now, I'd like to know Japanese well enough to check if in Japanese the 'your' was there or it's just a translation issue but anyway we know the corpse that needs to vanish on the gameboard is the one of PieceBattler not the one fo MetaBattler.

And, as you pointed out, it's just the 'soul' that's closed in that room. MetaBattler isn't really there. He can't be on the gameboard. It'll be fantasy he's in there with his cape on. And where would be Piece Battler anyway?

In the closed room there's PieceBattler.
The scenes we're shown with what looks like MetaBattler trying to get out and Kanon saving him and getting the collar in his place are part of the story but are the fantasy layer. They're told to Erika in the same way as she was told about the love trial or of how Kanon disappeared.
MetaBattler's soul is 'locked in the room' not because of the lock but because he refuses to acknowledge the logic error. Lambda said he had two options, either fixing it or acknowledge he made it.

Quote:
"......Battler, you have two options and one obligation. ......The first option is to build a new thread of logic to reconstruct your closed room trick. The second is to come clean and admit to your logic error. And your obligation is to choose one of these options."
"It is merciful. There's no restriction on the amount of time you have to make that choice. .........*giggle*, that's right, your time is endless, eternal."
If he admits the logic error however:
Quote:
"......If it's a logic error, the game board will be blown away. ......You have inherited this game board from Beato. .........It's the one thing you have left of that precious Beato. So, you must not accept a logic error.
So technically MetaBattler can get out any time without finding a solution at the price of Beato's gameboard.

The fantasy layer isn't something we need to postulate or not. The existence of a fantasy part or a fantasy layer is shown through all the games. Through the four games MetaBattler is shown stakes flying, towers emerging, Kumasawa becoming Virgilia who gets killed and then shows up to him, Kinzo summoning the Siesta and Gaap, Krauss' group fighting the goats, Beato fighting Erika in Kinzo's room while MetaBeato is comatose and PieceErika is talking to the adults, Maria dressing up as a witch and fighting Erika while they're actually in what looks like the golden land while they're actually with the cousins.

It's part of rule Y that has that lies agreed on by everyone can be depicted as actually happening and that in a locked room situation anything goes therefore you can show everything you want as long as there are no observers.

Kanon is shown rescuing fantasy Battler because it's this scene that will be shown as the fantasy interpretation of the story. In truth Kanon rescued PieceBattler and we're shown in Ep 8 that when the 'rescuing' took place Battler was in his normal clothes, not with his cape while Kanon wasn't in his normal clothes, the one we see he has when he saves fantasy Battler and then disappeares but in the clothes Erika sees when she opens the closet.

I hope I made things a little clearer.

As for where Ange's Player body is in ep 8, it's never stated. Usually players end up in the room in purgatorio and watch things from there but Ange was tied to her piece so maybe she can't leave it alone. I'm not sure she's inside it as when she disappears she walks away from it as she starts to slowly vanish.
Occasionally her body is at Featherine's but well, there are also parts who're a mystery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
Battlers thoughts in the closed room of episode 6 (the creepy one) very likely refer to the events that occured in prime - after what was shown in ep 7 tea party. he talks about a horrible memory of a family gathering after which he was dozing off.
It's an interesting theory and you might be up on something but we actually know too little about Prime to tell. Eva's diary doesn't really tell us what happened to Battler, I guess Eva couldn't find him and assumed he either escaped or was killed... unless Ep 3 was up on something and Eva really shot at Battler at a certain point but either this time she was the one who missed or it wasn't as serious as she hoped and he survived.
Of course it's also possible she never checked.

Also Battler says that it was

Quote:
Bad memories from when I was very young began to well up.
So this really looks more like something that reminded him of something that happened during his childhood. Ironically the same will happen in Ep 8 to Ange. I guess the Ushiromiya had the bad habit of closing their childreen into rooms... or wardrobes in Natsuhi's case as that's where she used to close Jessica.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
I also mentioned that at the end of ep 5 beato refers to prime when she says "I wont let a human be the culprit" or "I knew a man who believed with all of his heart and the suffering he went through after he was forced to abadon this belief". last bit is maybe (here Im less sure) about how Battler didnt believe sayo that his parents shot everyone (that would explain his stubbornness to accept a human culprit in the beginning of the games). those comments also fit well with my speculation "battlers closed-room-memories = events of prime", because like that we already can reconstruct all of the events that happen in prime. and like knox states, we should be able to with the info we're giving in the story
Hum... I'm not sure how are you picturing the events of Prime so I can't even agree or disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
well, somewhat I even agree here. beato says "Im going to save you know" to which Battler asks "how"? Im not reading too much into that though. btw, we are only partyl shown the magic interpretation, since kanon just closed the door and set the chain and battlers just walks out of there while the magic interpretation is "kanon rescued battler with magic" "Battler turning into butterflies" etc. :S
I guess that the magic scene was told to Erika including also the parts in which Kanon can get through doors.
When they're in the purgatorio they can get a view of the scene but here there's not such showing window and we only hear Beato giving a quick summary of what went on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
As it stands, my theory is Eva was shot by Sayo in prime. The Ange-story refers to a fragment-world that is part of the book, as well as the Eva is alive part is part of the book, everything is occuring in the same fragment. I now DO believe that Ange is alive even in the real world of that fragment, but I still find it hard to believe that Eva survived in prime when "when the seagulls cry, noone is left alive" is repeated over and over again. its already kind of forced to say beatos red truth in episode 4 refers to the game board. either Ryukishi changed his opinion again or you have to bend your interpretations. the way it is now and it has to be interpreted to fit isnt really "elegant".
it would also mean that eva has been invited to the world of the dead even though she wasnt dead - and she is the dead eva ushiromiya from 1986, after all, the eva ushiromiya from 1998 can only exist if her character changed and she "died" in 1986. battlers "we are all already dead" etc. would also not be correct. but even if we COULD say that the eva in "purgatory" is present and dead because she "died" in 1986, that would make the whole conversation about letting eva take care of ange during the halloween-party meaningless. and it would also not be understandable why Erika says Battler cant invite Ange to his golden land/land of the dead, after all, all you'd need to do is change your character to be present there. and ange did just that, she "died" in 1998. Sooooo confusing...Im sorry, I just had to write my thoughts to that.
Well, guess we gotta wait.
By the time Ange joins Ep 8 Eva is dead in 1998. Even if they're back in the past Ange is the Ange of the future. So Eva is already dead.
But I think this is a discussion that we'll better resume when the manga will reach this part and will probably hand us more elements to work with.
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Old 2015-03-13, 06:23   Link #34935
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
But...there is no difference, because 'Shannon dressing up as Kanon' IS Kanon. The entire point of those reds is to point out the subjective existence of the two of them, and thus how Yasu's personal world is constructed. It also means that Shannon and Kanon can be 'revived'.
If Id be a character in Umineko Id say you dont have enough love now
I dont know where some of you take the info of "she didnt have split personalities" from, but it doesnt even really matter if she has it or not. I find the info we get quite contradictory - if we compare ep 7 and ep 8. and the epilogue with battler/touya being in a similar situation as Yasu (SIMILAR :S), is really just emphasizing one thing - and that is completely independent of the question if she is mentally ill or not:
there exist different personalities in Yasu. if you want to understand it not as a mental illnes: the concept has even been established in umineko quite clearly - you're a different person in different environments. but yasu is taking that to the extreme that makes them (almost?) become seperate personalities. as shannon she loves george, as kanon he loves jessica, as beato she loves battler. and they all behave differently. in what way they are completely seperate doesnt even matter. the fact is "they only have part of a soul, they are one yet many" etc. there are countless phrases like that that hint at yasus soul, and its not just "playing kanon". as you see in the "afterlife", shannon and kanon and beato exist seperate from each other. the "acting" of sayo has taken on a life of its own,so to speak, if you want to consider it acting in the first place. in our confessions, it even shows the different thinking patterns between the three personalities quite clearly imo. the red with "each servant has a key" etc. is working not because someone is dressing up, but because you can see them as different personalities - if you have enough love that is :P. when beato says kanon is dead, it really means kanon is "dead". same for shannon. they are never revived.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
There's plenty of evidence. An entire epilogue. Like...you read it. It was there. Ange fakes her death and takes on a pseudonym. What more do you need?
problem's solved already Ange probably survived.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Battler's EP6 TIP says that as a Territory Lord, he's on a higher plane than basically everybody. Lambdadelta and Bernkastel might be on a higher plane than him, but Erika is explicitly not regardless of who her master is; she's basically JUST A Piece, despite her heightened self-awareness.

Beatrice or Battler forcing issues like you suggest undercut their emotional reasons for doing so in the first place, but just like Beatrice wanted Battler to remember on his own, Battler wants the same for Beato. The act of remembering is a personal proof that validates their hearts and hopes, and it's implied that the Logic Error was part of Battler's plans for helping Beatrice remember him.

This is supported in Episode 8, when he shows genuine surprise that anything happened on the gameboard that he didn't know about, because there was a second Gamemaster. This isn't the case in episode 6, implying that despite letting Erika do as she pleased, he KNEW what she was doing even if she didn't announce them until later. He didn't control her, but she played into his hands.
Thanks for mentioning this scene. I thought you meant another scene that "heavily" implied it, and I thought this would have much more impact than this statement but its also worth thinking abouth that of course. but let me start from the beginning:

erika is a piece - she is bernkastels piece. it was said over and over and over again, that Bern is her master. and only bern can resurrect erika at the end of episode 6, and only bern can save her from the sea of oblivion. only bern is her master. erika doesnt have another master than bern. I hope Im understanding you here in a correct way: so you say because erika is just a piece, battler can control her? there is not a single hint for that. not once. nowhere. in fact, everything mentioned above says exactly the opposite.
also, if you think about it, if he could control her, that would make the whole duel erika vs. battler in episode 6 completely and utterly meaningless. he is the game master, but the other player has freedom to influence the game in his own way or it wouldnt be a game in the first place. if it wasnt like that, battler in ep 1-4 never had the chance to take "his turns" on the gameboard, and he never had the chance to solve the riddle, because beato would - like a big omnipotent existence - control EVERYTHING. but its always stated each player on the game-board has his own pieces. I sometimes wonder why people completely neglect the most fundamental ideas of umineko :S erika is NOT battlers piece, she is berns piece, and he cant control what she does. again - if not, that would make the whole "erika vs. battler"-fight, completely meaningless.

Ok, now lets get to the last part - battler stating he is the game master he should be aware of everything. Im not completely saying you cant interpret it that way. there is of course a way to see it like you said, but quite a lot about the statements how exactly "game master-pieces-game-board" relate are ambiguous or even contradictory. I dont want to get out of this by just saying battlers statement is a lie though.
1) its just that the game-master is aware of everything thats happening on the game-baord that he focuses his mind on, or he has to search through the story to know what he wants to know or something, however you want to picture the game-master looking at the game-board. the way it was said in episode 8 -to me - never seemed to have such a big meaning like "oh wow, what a big reveal, now I completely get episode 6" more like "I planned this game, I know where all the pieces are, so who led Ange away from that room?".
so if battler doesnt pay attention to what erika does on the game-board, she can run around without him noticing it. Id go even as far as to say its possible to hide ones own move from the game-master (erika understands pretty well how the game works). but there was really no reason for ange to do something like that and neither did Ange understand all the rules nor was she aware of her status as a player.
the construction of your theory also falls apart when you think about what lambda and bern say in episode 6. lambda has been the game master before, and bern knows how the game works anyways. still, they help erika with her plan to fool battler, even though those two should now, if your theory is correct, that that isnt possible at all. also think about lambdas reaction here "aaaah, I get it, when you become the game master you get so full of yourself...". You'd have to say that even lambda AND Bern are putting on an act to help battler accomplish his goals. and what would that even mean for berns character as a whole? what would that make out of episode 8? and lets not forget episode 5, where lambda- the game-master!!!- was surprised to what length erika went to make natsuhi into the culprit - when she put on the seals and when she was listening in on battler sleeping the whole night.

2)Said a bit differenty - the only ones that can influence the game board are the game master and his contrahent - the player. The pieces on the game board are always controlled by the game master or the player (until now I only mentioned facts) - so if there is only Battler and Ange on the game board that can influence the game board, and Ange is sleeping in the room, its really not that surprising that he wonders where Ange has disappeared off to. The way Ange was back then gives Battler no reason to assume she would disappear without telling anyone. You can even think about it like he actively "looked" for Ange afterwards on the game board (however you want to think about that) and didnt find her. But Im emphasizing the point that he ACTIVELY searches for her. the situation with erika is different. You also realize that Battler already wondered why the door was locked and that he made an assumption that was completely off without being all panicky. "alert alert, something happened to the door that you didnt plan and see" XD obviously something like that didnt happen - an all-seeing battler would already have a problem with that door and wonder what happened in there. Needless to say, he would even wonder where Ange went BEFORE opening the door, since he would be all-seeing after all. game-master-battler can not control his opponent/the other player, so he doesnt know what happened to Ange. game-master battler does NOT automatically see every scene. Ergo: this statement does NOT imply that game-master battler has seen erikas moves.

Whatever explanation suits you best, both of them are more plausible than choosing the opposite and negate all those facts I mentioned just to construct something like "battler planned everything in game 6"

if you interpret it in your way it would mean the whole episode 6 is just a giant lie, even the meta would be just a lie, from start to finish. now THAT would take away all the emotional impact. battler would lie in the beginning for no reason, he would lie later on when he pretends he didnt realize what erika does, he would lie when he gives erika the seals, dlanor would lie when she says this was a stupid move of battler (and dlanor 100% understands the game -look at ep 5 and our confessions), of course battler would only pretend to try to get out of the locked room, he would lie when he asked beato to tell him how to get out of the room, he would lie in the end when he says to beato "what an aweful trick", he would lie when he asks her how beato solved the logic error (before the duel with erika), lambda would lie in every scene and of course bern would lie when she ridicules him etc. and all of that just because of battlers statements that he should know what happened on the game board? while it was even shown before that the game-master isnt all-seeing if he doesnt pay attention?
its really much MUCH easier with my theory, and I think in my next post, I can support my claim even better that battler did NOT plan everything.
see Im not COMPLETELY against the idea that battler "somehow" intended the logic error to happen, its just that this statement from ep 8 "i should know..." on its own isnt working.

But if you give me more "heavily implying" statements , Id be more than happy to refute them as well!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
No, the story at the beginning isn't any iteration of Dawn; it's an entirely different narrative he wasn't going to show anyone, at all, period. He never even calls it Dawn.
Wow, so aggressive XD Lucky me I dont care, so Im going to answer even that for you. The period isnt a period at all. we have the info the book he places in beatos coffin is dawn, and he calls the story he plays with erika dawn. so no period at all. they MIGHT be different stories, but you really think theres no point in thinking about the fact that they have the same name???...It pretty much shows there is at least a connection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
This is kind of a Zeno's Paradox. Even though it will take an infinite time to reach that moment, the bomb will explode. Just because I put down a book on page 13 and never read to page 20, doesn't mean the events of page 20 don't happen. The red is valid.
Well you say so. And you're certainly allowed to think so too. You just have to force it a bit, because that would make Kanons statement "the time will never advance, I will stay here for all eternity" completely meaningless. after all, just because they abandoned the game and time stops, it doesnt mean noone will come...and the fact that a red refers to something that never REALLY happened, which would be a first, is also a bit strange, but you're certainly allowed to think so and bring in paradoxes to solve this problem. I find the explanation with a paradox a bit over the top to explain a -supposedly unimportant - red truth, but its possible nonetheless. still, even with that, the red would be utterly pointless at that time. "oh yes, and by the way, everyone died of course - hypothetically - by the bomb. dont forget that, cause its really not important at all for the 6th episode" XD Im sorry for my sarcasm. Compared to that, Id still prefer jjblue1s explanation that the red refers to a later game-board in ep 7 or something, even though that too is, in my opinion, highly questionable.

Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-03-13 at 15:03.
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Old 2015-03-13, 09:32   Link #34936
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First of all, let me thank you for answering my long posts! I feel like Im giving off the impressions Im always arguing against you (I will too in this post ), but Im actually enjoying this discussion a lot, and I think you helped me clear up some misunderstandings I had. Still, (also thanks to the discussions with you) I think I might now be able to completely reconstruct prime and also explain the ending, so Im sticking to some of my theories as well

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Ep 8 however was a whole message of 'please live' that was supposed to reach the real Ange. Just saving piece Ange doesn't mean much for me. The message is powerful because it reached the real Ange somehow.
Tohya building his own happy fantasy of saving Ange is meaningful only if Ange can be saved by his tales, if this possibility exist. Otherwise it's just pointless fantasy.

Yes, we don't know real Ange. Technically we don't know anyone real as they're all pieces apart from Tohya. But there's a real Ange, a real Ange that has suffered through those years. And for me she's more important than her piece form.
Maybe that's just me.
Dont say its pointless. After all, who is the Ange we meet in episode 3? She is nobody, not even the Ange from 1998. And she certainly isnt Ange from 1986. She is just a game-piece, but she still sufferend very much. Every story written for someone has meaning in itself, I think thats one of the most important messages of Umineko - the stories are worlds (ikuko), magic means creating worlds (ep 7 - beatos thoughts), and the piece-ange in the meta wants to be freed just the same as the real-life Ange thats about to jump from the building. You would also say the story in the meta is pointless, cause that is all "just" part of a book. Its has meaning.


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
What was being discussed was why Bern was surprised. Bern was surprised because she didn't figure Ange could use gold to defeat her red. And in fact Bern didn't understand it. Here there's the bit in the manga:
Yes, you're right on that. But I dont actually remember all that well why I wanted to discuss that in the first place. she can be surprised at the golden truth, but doesnt really relate to anything all that strongly. ange probably survived, Im still not sure if Eva and battler survived because of other facts.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
LOL, in game 5 the characters are declared dead in red... but their dead happened not when expected but later on. So I guess if this is the right solution it was even hinted by Ep 5. In ???? we've Ikuko who has already met Ange so technically it's 1998. Eva is dead, Ange is going to Rokkenjima where she'll be killed. No one is going to remain alive. But well, a lack of official interpretation allows you to interpret it as you prefer.
Hehe, no, actually that is not the case. the deaths are declared in red - and they really ARE dead at that point in time. cause sayo killed the cousins immediately after they left the room and hid in the "Golden Land". there is even a WHOLE argument about how you have to look at the time the red truth "x is dead" is given - because it can ONLY be given, when someone really is dead. It CANT anticipate a death of a person. (Im citing by memory, but I sure think you remember that scene too) Erika in episode 5: You mean to say by that point in time they were still alive? That cant be. Lambda declared their death in red. You cant say exactly when the red about their death was uttered". Ronove: "No, we know exactly when the red about their death was stated - when the trial in the court started". They make the point!!! that the moment the red about a death is stated is important. And that only ONLY makes sense, if it actually DOES MATTER, meaning you CANT declare someone dead BEFORE he died. Virgilila declared them dead because they HAD died by that point in time - they were killed by Sayo shortly after they left the room, because Sayo didnt want them running around.

(Please dont think of the capitals as me screaming, I always use them for emphasizing and immitate the intonation)

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
The whole discussion was about how Tohya could write the truth about Sayo's backstory.
He can put in his tale the info about Rudolf switching the babies because it's common knowledge in the future but how would he know that Sayo had an immaginary friend named Gaap? Or that she played a prank to Berune? That Kumasawa covered up for her saying a kitten broke the vase?
Without knowing he found Sayo's confession we're left with three possibilities:
- he made up a lot of things ergo Ep 7 isn't actually telling us Sayo's true backstory but a fantasy backstory Tohya made up for her... which as you can guess is disappointing.
- before leaving Rokkenjima he had a long chat with Sayo in which she told him the whole story of her life in details... and even though he still hadn't recovered his memory in full he managed to remember it all. It feels unlikely but possible.
- Sayo survived and when he managed to remember everything the two faced each other and she explained him his backstory. The whole chat was trasposed in Umineko in the symbolic form of Ep 7. At the time possibly the best explanation but now obsolete as Tohya just has to read the confession to know the whole story without needing Sayo to be alive to tell him.
Was that really what the discussion was about??? I have to look that up again, because you're more or less charging open doors here. Even though the prime and ange and sayos backstory are part of the book-world, I still think the book-world = the real world in that case of sayos backstory, prime etc. Of course, we cant be sure, but it was never said it wasnt, and you'd never get to the beginning of everything if book-world-prime wasnt real-world-prime. And I agree with you - if not, that would be disappointing.
But the fact that we cant be sure makes it pretty much pointless thinking about who knows what. I dont know how to explain what I mean- it feels like Ryukishi didnt give this too much thought. The same as with Evas diary - its a means to get to the truth, she cant know what was said in the conversation between Kyrie and Rudolf and she cant even be completely sure it was those two alone who killed everyone. Yet, it is all true and can be read in Evas diary. I dont think too much about "how can they know what they know"

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Well, in Ep 3 Beato and Virgilia deliberately fooled us with the wind and sun strategy so I wouldn't discharge this but what I was trying to say is that Battler planned a storyline.
After planning it he learnt some things like that something like a logic error existed so he has to be wary of it in his battle with Erika and that he hadn't resurrected the real Beato.
Learning of the logic error he might have figured Erika would be interested in going for it... or he might have figured later on.
However, as the situation evolved, he decided to let Erika believe he had trapped him into one.
He accepted to revise the plot, after all, so he might have figured Erika's plan and to play along with it only when Erika pushed for some duck tape.
Yes, I gave some thoughts to the events in ep 3 as well, when I made my point. In episode 3 Beato and Virgilia fooled us. At least thats what the end of ep 3 told us. And it turned out, they did NOT COMPLETELY fool us. virgilias and beatos goal was never for battler to believe in the witch like that in the first place, yet at the end of ep 3, its presented just like that. beato also fools him with all her deredere-playacting. It WAS to fool him, but at the same time, it also wasnt just acting: Later in the manga it shows that in the moment she reveals to battler is was all an act, she really was hesitating if she should admit it. and there are various other scenes, that "within her acting" hint at beatos true feelings. after all in ep 3 we first think: beato and virgilia are "nice", then we think: they are evil, it was all just an act, but then it turns out, the evil-witch-facade was actually just (at least partly) an act. so episode 3 makes sense, when beato is deredere whenever she is alone, episode 6 doesnt. and by episode 6 not making any sense, i dont mean just in this sense, I mean it doesnt make sense AT ALL - not just minor stuff - if we think about everything! as a huge act.
With your last part, like I said - Im fine. the thing about him revising the plot somehow in the middle of the game according to erikas moves. this is ok. And I might even come to say I wont argue about that point anymore at all. However, first you still gotta argue against other parts of my theory, where its not planned - Ill write another post, cause thats gonna be to long.


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Well, Beato wanted Battler to understand the truth about her heart. Her heart is basically Shkanon. Yes, if you want it's also that she can decorate truth but the main core is Shkanon.
Well somewhat yes, somewhat no. I agree with magic not referring only to the ability to decorate the truth. Like I said, I really think "real magic" refers to creating worlds, cause that is what the witch on the highest plane , the creator witch, is able to do.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Now... about the Battler in the room thing.

At the start of Ep 6 Bern talking to Battler asks him:

As I see it this is a hint that there are 2 Battler, the Meta one and the trapped in the room one. Meta Battler is the GM and is sort of moving the locked-room Battler in his mind.
In a way, as MetaBattler is solely focused on this, it's as if he's also trapped in the room.
Differently from Featherine that dropped Bern, her piece, in a logic error from which Bern had to find a way out on her own, MetaBattler can not let the logic error go unsolved. He has to get PieceBattler out of that room that now is frozen in time.
Lol, why? Why would Bern refer to fantasy-Battler, when she never gave a d*** about him in the first place? her little feud is with meta-battler. and she says "all of you" no "futari" or anything if I remember correctly? but it could also be she just said "omaetachi" or something. Id have to take a look at the scene again. well, doesnt really matter anyways. actually, I didnt want to mention it, because that would further complicate things, but the beginning of ep 6 is kind of like a "preview" of what happens in ep 6, because the way things happen there are not occuring the same way they happen later on in episode 6. and I really just read "all of you" as Bern referring to us! the viewers, what she has done various times. It would be soooooo weird for now to refer to the pieces as well when talking to the meta-person, and how is she even supposed to reach them - pieces-battler (no matter if you say fantasy or mystery) would not be directly connected to the meta in the first place, according to your clear-cut-seperate-layers-theory. Im sorry, please dont take this the wrong way, I like your arguments and I think if I go on discussing stuff with you, Im able to learn much more about the story, but this argument about "fantasy-battler-piece" seems completely stupid and dragged in by the head and shoulders.
Even if you somehow create an explanation for some things, there is still a TON of other hints that say otherwise, no not even hints, they are clear statements- the ones I mentioned in my previous post, that you cant explain at all. Some of them you also didnt address. Like fantasy-piece-battler suddenly losing his memories, or the fact that in the fantasy layer, kanon doesnt have a real body anymore - nothing should hinder him from leaving the room...and all the statements about battlers soul being in the closed room and everything lambda says - you just completely ignore that and instead say something like "in a way he is completely focused on whats happening in the closed room". Why not just accept it the way it is stated OFTEN and CLEARLY and in the manga/VN: its his soul that is trapped in there? I dont understand why you'd want to interpret it against everything that is said (imagine a desperate intonation here please XD)


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Through the whole game people refers to PieceBattler as if he and MetaBattler were one and the same for example:

"But Battler-san, even if you can place the letter somehow, how are you going to make your corpse vanish afterwards? ......The guest room is sealed. If you don't find a trick to erase the corpse from the closed room right now, a logic error will occur."

Now, I'd like to know Japanese well enough to check if in Japanese the 'your' was there or it's just a translation issue but anyway we know the corpse that needs to vanish on the gameboard is the one of PieceBattler not the one fo MetaBattler.
Yes yes yes! They are referring to their pieces and the game-master as being one and the same. they are doing this not just in ep 6, but all the time they are referring to the piece-body and the meta-body as connected. But YOU are in fact suddenly saying they dont, they refer to "fantasy-piece", mystery-piece and meta as sepate identies and bern saying something like "all of you". Do you have the japanese raw btw? if you cite the passage we can look together if the "you" was there or not, if you're interested. For my point it doesnt really matter though.
So Im forced to touch the topic of relation between game-master and pieces after all

look at the following points:
-remember turn of the golden witch, when meta-battler waited for beato to make a move and pieces-battler says "Its just not my turn yet"
-you remember the end of turn of the golden witch, when beato says something like "didnt you surrender down to your very soul" and where pieces-battler the detective!!!! suddenly sees beato and kinzo (both are DEAD)
-remember the end of episode 4, where beato refers to battler as "Im going to kill you now", you all think it only refers to the game board, lets accept that for once, but it is definitely also meta-battler she tells it too
-end of ep 4 - pieces battler becomes meta-battler once they start talking about how ange died
-ep 3: meta-beato searches around in the pockets of rudolf and kyrie - directly leaves the meta and goes into the game-board, and its not like there are suddenly two bodies of beato
-ep 3 beato gets "sewn"and only her heart remains, there is no meta-body left in the meta BUT in ep 4-end: meta-beato vs meta-battler duel on the game-board - beatos body is destroyed, only her heart remains, but in meta-beatos body still remains on the other layer (as shown in ep 5)
-various pieces leave and enter the game-board, meta-beato does too without leaving a meta-corpse behind
-ep 5- battler says to dlanor that its not him on the game board, YET: in ep 8 erika asks meta-battler how he felt when he made the phone-call to natsuhi
-its stated piece =/= meta-person, and yet when everyone assembles in the court of episode 5, there is only meta-battler in the court, his piece had disappeared

=> THATS why I said I didnt want to touch this subject, because there are clearly quite contradictory statements here. seperate, connected ? its not that easy, you can NEVER EVER explain everything by just saying theres just every piece x2 and the meta-body and there are things happening on the mystery-layer, things happening on the fantasy-layer and things happening in the meta, and those world never overlap. its doesnt work that way, the concepts arent that clear-cut. and it even hints at the fact that the pieces on the game-board are indeed the souls of everyone "with strings attached".
I always thought about it like the meta-person and the piece as "somewhat" connected, but Im deliberately saying that in a vague way. Just accept that the difference between meta-body, and "piece-body" is not that clear. and that there is no third "fantasy-body" but just the piece acting as part of fantasy and mystery. you get a problem if you dont, as you see with when I was aking where anges body appears to in ep 8. you cant explain it at all. like bern leaving her body in ep 8 to talk with featherine, even though she is a layer above them, such things arent unusual in umineko

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post

And, as you pointed out, it's just the 'soul' that's closed in that room. MetaBattler isn't really there. He can't be on the gameboard. It'll be fantasy he's in there with his cape on. And where would be Piece Battler anyway?
It is meta-battlers soul. body and soul are seperate here. youre basically confirming what I said all the time XD meta-battler is in "hell". and this "hell" is on the game-board and at the same time it isnt. its the hell of the logic error, where time flows differently, but its accessible from the game-board and can be solved by events that happen on the game-board. meta-battler is in the logic error-hell, not some "fantasy-piece", because some fantasy-piece wouldnt have anything to do with logic-errors that only relate to a higher plane. Really, I dont even...XD (dont take offense please Im just having a hard time trying to find a good way to formulate everything) piece-battler is in the room, the same way as erika is in the room, but on another layer, that is on the game-board where time flows normally. by letting meta-battler out of the room, he also lets piece-battler out of the room. Or maybe its better said this way around: by letting mystery-battler out of the room, kanon lets meta-battler out of the room. hard to understand? such things are always happening simultaneously in umineko. thats all pretty obvious. Again you're completely ignoring that all those "fantasy"-pieces you claim they are, have to use the methods of the "mystery-pieces" to get out of the room, even when "fantasy-kanon" said walls dont have any meaning for him now. either you stick with your theory of coherent layers or you dont. but now you're taking something here, and something there and create a theory for something that wasnt even a question in the first place because its said over and over that it is "meta-battler" in the room, even by lambda. Edit: I sound like an a*** here, please dont mind my formulations
if it makes it easier for you to understand - battlers soul "enters" his piece. or like that: piece-battler is "becoming" meta-battler and the room is becoming warped. please think about about the time meta-battler fought with erika in the locked room, the same as beato does later on in the duel, that is meta-battler there. its the same later on. its just that when he is locked in the closed room, he cant go back to the meta and his soul is seperated from his body. I really dont know how else I should explain it. there is no clear rule that says how the meta-person and the pieces are interchanged in the first place as I told you. sometimes they leave a body behind, sometimes they dont. its just ryukishis way of writing his story. the layers overlap all the time. what happens in ep 6 probably comes closest to what happens in the end of ep 4. really its SO hard for me to explain, because i dont have a problem here at all XD

Edit: I have thought of a way to make you understand it easily. Think like this: Meta-Battler has his own body when he enters the game-board. Its not a sperate fantasy-piece, its just another layer so he takes on another "body" which is equal to being a container for his soul. Like Bern and Lambda are also on the game-board together with meta-battler. if it makes it easier for you to understand, Ill write it like this.

Oh and another argument that occurred to me: remember ep 5 when all the pieces were assembled in the court? where is fantasy-piece-maria? there is only a mystery-piece maria. thats what I meant to say you postulate a third layer with seperate fantasy-pieces here just for ep 6, for the first time. you never use it before.


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
In the closed room there's PieceBattler.
The scenes we're shown with what looks like MetaBattler trying to get out and Kanon saving him and getting the collar in his place are part of the story but are the fantasy layer. They're told to Erika in the same way as she was told about the love trial or of how Kanon disappeared.
No, she is told Kanon saved Battler with magic, when in fact, he simply set the chain from the inside. Oh what fantastic magic XD (Sorry, Im just being sarcastic). You just gotta accept that theres no clear-cut fantasy-, mystery- and meta-layer here, because the room meta-battler is in is the hell of a logic error. the boundaries dont hold for that room- on the game-board itself there can be no logic-error (time flows different) but kanon still has access to the logic-error-hell coming from the game-board. and later on in the duel the boundaries are practically shown as non-existant anyways, as Ive already pointed out. And every fantasy-piece of battler on the game-board that he controls with his mind would be no different from the soul of meta-battler being right there anyways. so he IS trying to get out of the room, no matter how you look at it.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
MetaBattler's soul is 'locked in the room' not because of the lock but because he refuses to acknowledge the logic error. Lambda said he had two options, either fixing it or acknowledge he made it.

If he admits the logic error however:

"......If it's a logic error, the game board will be blown away. ......You have inherited this game board from Beato. .........It's the one thing you have left of that precious Beato. So, you must not accept a logic error.

So technically MetaBattler can get out any time without finding a solution at the price of Beato's gameboard.
Lol, blowing away the game-board means destroying the world they are in, which would basically be the same as letting everyone die, himself included. Better said: they would all stop to exist. Sure, he can get out of his hell by just admitting he committed a logic-error. Meta-Battler is in the room because he refuses to accept the logic error AND because of the lock. you'd have to ignore basically everything that was stated about the locked room to think otherwise.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
The fantasy layer isn't something we need to postulate or not. The existence of a fantasy part or a fantasy layer is shown through all the games. Through the four games MetaBattler is shown stakes flying, towers emerging, Kumasawa becoming Virgilia who gets killed and then shows up to him, Kinzo summoning the Siesta and Gaap, Krauss' group fighting the goats, Beato fighting Erika in Kinzo's room while MetaBeato is comatose and PieceErika is talking to the adults, Maria dressing up as a witch and fighting Erika while they're actually in what looks like the golden land while they're actually with the cousins.
Yes, it is. Until now, the fantasy layer has always been considered as an interpretation of what happens. This is the very first time, where you're making such a clear-cut difference between fantasy and mystery (and meta), which you cant hold up anyways.

Let me also ask you that: you know how beato is a "piece" in ep 6. the game-master beato died. So is there a mystery-piece beato? hard to believe right? since mystery-piece-beato does not exist - she would overlap with sayo on the mystery-layer. so what is that beato in the chapel? she's still the piece right? with her memories. Like the piece-beato at the end of ep 5. and look here - shes a piece that is outside of the fantasy layer and interacting with the meta btw (=> NO clear difference between meta and game-board). you know when kanon lets battler out of the room, he tells him to go back to beato and ange. where is he running off too? if I try to make a clear difference between the layers, then poor-fantasy-battler will find, that there is noone waiting for him XD cause piece-beato is currently busy saving meta-battler. unless you want to say Beatos fantasy-piece! (remember, there is no rela equivalent mystery-piece) has suddenly multiplied....hes running off to his own body, if you want to describe it like that.
The longer I think about it the more it appears to me that the problem you're having here is similar to someone asking while watching a musical "are they singing for real in the story of the movie?" XD (Not meant in an offensive way AT ALL), I just thought thats a good comparison

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Kanon is shown rescuing fantasy Battler because it's this scene that will be shown as the fantasy interpretation of the story. In truth Kanon rescued PieceBattler and we're shown in Ep 8 that when the 'rescuing' took place Battler was in his normal clothes, not with his cape while Kanon wasn't in his normal clothes, the one we see he has when he saves fantasy Battler and then disappeares but in the clothes Erika sees when she opens the closet.
Dont think about the difference between fantasy and mystery and meta too much here. its the hell of a logic error anyways. We are NOT shown the scene as it is told from a fantasy perspective, because in the fantasy kanon rescues battler with magic and kanon can go through walls now on that layer, since he just lost his body. its really a mix between mystery and meta at that point when kanon rescues him, because they are in a complete different dimension there - like it is stated, in hell where time flows differently.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I hope I made things a little clearer.
Yes, Im even more sure now that I am right XD

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
As for where Ange's Player body is in ep 8, it's never stated. Usually players end up in the room in purgatorio and watch things from there but Ange was tied to her piece so maybe she can't leave it alone. I'm not sure she's inside it as when she disappears she walks away from it as she starts to slowly vanish.
Occasionally her body is at Featherine's but well, there are also parts who're a mystery.
You cant explain it because you're bound to have problems with your fantasy-piece-body, mystery-piece-body and meta-body clear-cut difference. Not just with Ange, you also get problems with all the games before, as I explained before.
Im sorry, I hope my argument didnt sound too aggressive, I might edit some things later on. Fact is, Im enjoying this very much! So please dont take that the wrong way, because its definitely not meant to be offending. Its also not that Im not willing to revise my "theories", but with this, just let me say it here, Im 100% sure Im right.


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
It's an interesting theory and you might be up on something but we actually know too little about Prime to tell. Eva's diary doesn't really tell us what happened to Battler, I guess Eva couldn't find him and assumed he either escaped or was killed... unless Ep 3 was up on something and Eva really shot at Battler at a certain point but either this time she was the one who missed or it wasn't as serious as she hoped and he survived.
Of course it's also possible she never checked.

Also Battler says that it was

Bad memories from when I was very young began to well up.


So this really looks more like something that reminded him of something that happened during his childhood. Ironically the same will happen in Ep 8 to Ange. I guess the Ushiromiya had the bad habit of closing their childreen into rooms... or wardrobes in Natsuhi's case as that's where she used to close Jessica.
Hehe, Im glad you're already partly agreeing with me Then let me convince you:
I explained that already didnt I? I also thought about that sentence. Of course he says "from when I was very young". Imagine he didnt say that. Imagine he talked about horrible memories of a family gathering where afterwards he was falling asleep and ending up in a room he didnt know. Just imagine that as a viewer that reads Ryukishis story. What would be the very first thing you'd think? I assume it would be: He is definitely talking about prime here. You'd immediately think that, wouldnt you? This sentence -from a story-telling perspective- is just there to make you think he is NOT talking about prime. Just a mean sentence to confuse the viewer. But you know why we can be pretty sure he IS talking about prime? Even though van dine doesnt completely apply, the one thing, that refers to there being no unnecessary clues, seems to hold true- even Will used that to defend against goats. And while there are a whole lot of misleading hints, those misleading hints at least led SOMEWHERE. For example - Battler saying he is the culprit in ep 5 -> he is protecting beato, rudolf saying he is probably killed this night-> killed by kyrie, battler is not asumus son -> he is kyries son. every misleading hint has a solution, just this one, this big fat elephant in the room is leading nowhere, cause there was NEVER EVER mentioned a family gathering that was horrible and where he was locked in a room afterwards. Never. And the way Asumu is depicted and how its stated that she gave him all the love she could, definitely shows Battler had a good childhood. let me repeat: there is NEVER, not once, even REMOTELY mentioned ANYTHING that relates to a family gathering when he was 12 years or younger where Battler had such a horrible memory. But that might not yet completely convince you, so let me go on:
Then what is "when he was very young" referring to? Really, you know how long he's been in the closed room already by that point? Kanon says its been years, and not only does the time in the locked room count. In the meta, time is passing as well. Beato talks about her 6 years as 1000 years, so the flow of time in the world of witches is really not defined that well. and from battlers point of view, certainly much time has passed already. And oh wonder! What was the episode again when they were talking about the flow of time being different in the world of witches? Exactly, it was episode 6! ryukishi is nice enough to give us all the clues we need in this episode. the whole episode 6 is basically saying us over and over again to think about the "flow of time". but if only you consider kanons "how many years have passed in this closed room" alone, this allows battler already to think of himself back then in prime as "very young". Its like 1000 year old beato would refer to herself as young when she was only 20 or something years old. In fact, I think Kanon mentioning the years that battler spend in the room, is supposed to be a giant clue for that. You just have to put 1+1 together here and it is quite obvious, here you have the hint to what happened in prime.

And last but not least, I really can reconstruct the basic events of prime with just these informations. It explains a LOT of everything that happens in the games after that, a lot of Battlers behaviour, a lot of the metaphors, a lot of the red truths. And that is exactly what we should be able to do - solving the story with just the infos given. Without Battlers memores, we cant reconstruct what happend in prime, with them we can. And I think I can explain the ending of umineko now too.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Hum... I'm not sure how are you picturing the events of Prime so I can't even agree or disagree.
Ill write it in another post again, this one is long enough as it is

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I guess that the magic scene was told to Erika including also the parts in which Kanon can get through doors.
When they're in the purgatorio they can get a view of the scene but here there's not such showing window and we only hear Beato giving a quick summary of what went on.
Yes, we hear her say Kanon rescued Battler with magic. Nothing more. There is no interruption in the story where Beato could have told her anything more. That is what I mean when I say with your assumptions, you have to interpret this different, that different, add something here, add something there, think info is laking here, info is lacking there, while it is much easier this way: accepting it how it is presented in the VN/manga and just accept that its meta-battlers soul that was in the hell of the logic error and kanon is rescuing him from that hell. no extra interpretations needed, just going with whats described in the vn/manga.
that way, the reason Battler forgot everything while in the room can also be explained very well, something one cant do with your theory. But you just ignored this part of my answer (by the way, even though I have not completely given up on the interpretation that battler himself let the logic error occur, I have a new theory that fits perfectly and in which he does NOT cause it himself - that is one of the reasons after all why you dont want to admit that its meta-battler in the closed room)

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
By the time Ange joins Ep 8 Eva is dead in 1998. Even if they're back in the past Ange is the Ange of the future. So Eva is already dead.
But I think this is a discussion that we'll better resume when the manga will reach this part and will probably hand us more elements to work with.
Hehe, if somehow possible, Id like to solve it before the manga reveals everything like I said, the Eva that is with them in this "afterlife" is not the eva from 1998. Im still thinking about that. Now I wanted to hear your (or someone elses opinion) about my great I-solved-the story-of-Umineko-theory XD But this post took long enough already, Ill ask later...

Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-03-14 at 15:12.
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Old 2015-03-13, 14:00   Link #34937
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9
If Id be a character in Umineko Id say you dont have enough love now
I dont know where some of you take the info of "she didnt have split personalities" from, but it doesnt even really matter if she has it or not. I find the info we get quite contradictory - if we compare ep 7 and ep 8. and the epilogue with battler/touya being in a similar situation as Yasu (SIMILAR :S), is really just emphasizing one thing - and that is completely independent of the question if she is mentally ill or not:
there exist different personalities in Yasu. if you want to understand it not as a mental illnes: the concept has even been established in umineko quite clearly - you're a different person in different environments. but yasu is taking that to the extreme that makes them (almost?) become seperate personalities. as shannon she loves george, as kanon he loves jessica, as beato she loves battler. and they all behave differently. in what way they are completely seperate doesnt even matter. the fact is "they only have part of a soul, they are one yet many" etc. there are countless phrases like that that hint at yasus soul, and its not just "playing kanon". as you see in the "afterlife", shannon and kanon and beato exist seperate from each other. the "acting" of sayo has taken on a life of its own,so to speak, if you want to consider it acting in the first place. in our confessions, it even shows the different thinking patterns between the three personalities quite clearly imo. the red with "each servant has a key" etc. is working not because someone is dressing up, but because you can see them as different personalities - if you have enough love that is :P. when beato says kanon is dead, it really means kanon is "dead". same for shannon. they are never revived.
You're right about all this...except the mere act of APPEARING as her characters causes Yasu to roleplay them and vice versa. It's an identical principle to when Maria identifies Sakuraou by his scarf, or her rose by the candy wrapper. Yasu doesn't break character except to switch to a different one.

And that's ultimately what she's doing. She's roleplaying.

Quote:
erika is a piece - she is bernkastels piece. it was said over and over and over again, that Bern is her master. and only bern can resurrect erika at the end of episode 6, and only bern can save her from the sea of oblivion. only bern is her master. erika doesnt have another master than bern. I hope Im understanding you here in a correct way: so you say because erika is just a piece, battler can control her?
NO. I explicitly said that he COULDN'T. But he can understand her thought process and can predict and account for what she's going to do on the gameboard, because despite what Erika believes, she can't ACTUALLY perform secret moves he doesn't know about. He's the author of the story, he possesses an omniscient awareness of Dawn of the Golden Witch, even if he doesn't control a specific character.

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so if battler doesnt pay attention to what erika does on the game-board, she can run around without him noticing it.
The mere suggestion that Battler wouldn't pay attention to what his opponent is doing during her turn in a game he's running is absurd.

Quote:
the construction of your theory also falls apart when you think about what lambda and bern say in episode 6. lambda has been the game master before, and bern knows how the game works anyways. still, they help erika with her plan to fool battler, even though those two should now, if your theory is correct, that that isnt possible at all. also think about lambdas reaction here "aaaah, I get it, when you become the game master you get so full of yourself...". You'd have to say that even lambda AND Bern are putting on an act to help battler accomplish his goals. and what would that even make out of episode 8? what would that mean for berns character as a whole? and lets not forget episode 5, where lambda- the game-master!!!- was surprised to what length erika went to make natsuhi into the culprit - when she put on the seals and when she was listening in on battler sleeping the whole night.
Bern's never been a Game Master up to this point, so she doesn't need to 'play along'. Lambdadelta, however, is established as being willing to play along with whatever everyone else is doing as a spectator and neutral party, and will play the roles other characters give her so she can enable their Certain Will to Power. It's how her magic works.

Quote:
if you interpret it in your way it would mean the whole episode 6 is just a giant lie
No, it's not, because you didn't even understand what I said.

Also, even if Battler DID have that much control, it only serves things thematically because it means he's behaving like Beatrice and performing her level of tricks. He understands Beatrice's heart and demonstrates it BECAUSE he effects everyone with the Logic Error.

Quote:
see Im not COMPLETELY against the idea that battler "somehow" intended the logic error to happen, its just that this statement from ep 8 "i should know..." on its own isnt working.
There's also the whole thing with Sorcerer Battler serving as a symbolic representation of the author Toya, Kinzo, and also of Beatrice's magic in action. All those suggest a person willing and able to trick absolutely everyone with a really simple trick that, no matter how it ultimately turns out, would have given him the result he wanted out of the gamble. And that he can get this result literally by rigging the dice or lying about the result of the outcome.

This is literally how Beato's magic works, and Battler inherited it.

Quote:
Wow, so aggressive XD Well anyways, I going to answer even that for you. The period isnt a period at all. In the interview its said the book he places in beatos coffin is dawn, and he calls the story he plays with erika dawn. so no period at all. they MIGHT be different stories, but the fact they have the same name pretty much shows there is a connection.
Citation, please? Ryukishi hasn't exactly been the most consistent in his interviews.

Though if they are the same it just sort of leans towards my interpretation of Battler the Mastermind, so either way I'm fine with the outcome. :P

Quote:
Well you say so. And you can THINK SO. You just have to force it a bit, because that would make Kanons statement "the time will never advance" completely meaningless. after all, just because they abandoned the game and time stops, it doesnt mean noone will come...but you're certainly allowed to think so. still, even with that, the red is utterly pointless at that time.
You're not understanding the paradox I mentioned, then. At the end of the game, the bomb will explode. However, time will not advance. That the reader never progresses the 'story' beyond Kanon's rescue mission doesn't change the fact that on the last page of the book everything explodes. You're just refusing to flip the pages that far. The red is valid.
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Old 2015-03-13, 17:18   Link #34938
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Quote:
You're not understanding the paradox I mentioned, then. At the end of the game, the bomb will explode. However, time will not advance. That the reader never progresses the 'story' beyond Kanon's rescue mission doesn't change the fact that on the last page of the book everything explodes. You're just refusing to flip the pages that far. The red is valid.
Let me say my opinion. Since it is said that the tale should be finished using the epitaph, everyone died and the fragment tells no more of the story we can think of ourself how the story could continue until the very end. After all, the bomb will blow up because the fight in the guest room ended and the time flow continued.

Another idea: Maybe the author conisider this book too demanding and lifted the difficulty form it (the description of Ep6 says that there no difficulty).

Quote:
He's the author of the story, he possesses an omniscient awareness of Dawn of the Golden Witch, even if he doesn't control a specific character.
Not quite. As a groom of Erika he was disabled- he does merely the setup for Beatrice.
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Old 2015-03-13, 22:49   Link #34939
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Once again I was thinking about any possible exaggeration/inconsistency at October 6th. Regarding the boat I wondered if it was possible for Battler to learn how to drive it by himself, or if Sayo herself would have known how to in the first place.

Yes I feel incredibly stupid now, that she could handle arms and demolition but not a motorboat... And it probably would keep bugging me if it wasn't because I saw the Shrine bomb test (manga ver) in more detail, where she detonated the thing from the boat:

http://batoshan.tumblr.com/post/1008...etween-shannon
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Old 2015-03-14, 14:26   Link #34940
Inbuiltx9
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
You're right about all this...except the mere act of APPEARING as her characters causes Yasu to roleplay them and vice versa. It's an identical principle to when Maria identifies Sakuraou by his scarf, or her rose by the candy wrapper. Yasu doesn't break character except to switch to a different one.

And that's ultimately what she's doing. She's roleplaying.
No, she is not "mere" roleplaying. I mean she IS roleplaying, but that doesnt mean that the feelings etc. she developed while role-playing arent real, same applies for her thinking-patterns. its even explained in umineko itself, seems I have to repeat it :S

Imagine you are with your friends. And in this group, you are quite open-minded and feel proud of yourself and self-confident etc., could even be theres a girl in your group you love.
Then you are working at your job, everyone treats you like sh***, you hate everyone, feel pissed-off at life whenever you're there etc. thats what it means when they talk in umineko about it, that you're a different character when you're in different situations.
its also an established concept in psychology - there is no "true"me. you're a different person when you're in different situations. now, sayo is taking that to the extreme!! what started out as role-playing really caused her to develop different thinking pattern, like everyone else does, but she does the same ^10. like kanon e.g., he was there so sayo could give him her negative emotions like she said in confessions in the manga) and shannon is there to feel good and get along with everyone. I described that role-playing as "its developed a life on its own". she has different thinking patterns when she is shannon, kanon or beato, they are in that sense, different "personalities". im repeating myself here...as shannon, she even developed love for george, as kanon for jessica and as beato for battler. you cant dismiss sayos characters as "mere role-playing". she doesnt appear to be mentally ill, but she certainly feels like every personality feels whenever she takes on this "role". Its explained in Umineko! Im just repeating what is quite clearly written there! When "Shannon" dies, it means Sayo is giving up on "playing" Shannon, she gives up on her feelings for george, she gives up on the though-process to try to get along with everyone etc. pp. This "Shannon" is never revived once she "dies" or if you want to have another formulation: once sayo lets shannon "die". there are no resurrections. and afterwards, its just sayo dressing up as kanon and shannon - BUT here its JUST the outside appearance - just changing clothes, hairstyle etc. it doesnt mean she falls back into her old thinking patterns! "its kanon, yet it isnt". I mean everything I said is already told quite clearly in Umineko itself. Please think about why Shannon, Kanon and Beato have a different existence in the "afterlife". In Umineko its repeated almost endlessly that it is NOT mere role-playing what Sayo does.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
NO. I explicitly said that he COULDN'T. But he can understand her thought process and can predict and account for what she's going to do on the gameboard, because despite what Erika believes, she can't ACTUALLY perform secret moves he doesn't know about. He's the author of the story, he possesses an omniscient awareness of Dawn of the Golden Witch, even if he doesn't control a specific character.
First of all, thank you Im glad you're saying clearly what makes others think that he planned the logic error. Though this might seem to be said with a sarcastic tone - its not meant that way - for me, you actually help me confirm more and more that Im right that he didnt plan the logic error. I was a bit unsure about what happened in ep 6 myself, but now, Im basically almost completely sure what happened. Because there were often comments that said he planned everything, I thought maybe there was something big I missed somewhere. Well turns out there wasnt XD

And Im sorry, but with all your comments that follow you're actually not able to argue against me at all. I have barely found any argument in your post at all, just baseless statements like "its ridiculous" - and that is an opinion, not an argument. An argument is for example the following: He can NOT predict Erikas moves, the same way Battler can NOT predict Anges moves in his last game. He wants to show her a game and at the end, she has to choose one door. that was his ORIGINAL plan, even before Bern intervened. Like you said - Battler should have known which door she would choose. What great freedom for Ange! you seem to have missed this very important point: beato takes on a RISK in her games, even Will says so. battler could have solved the riddle (actually, she had hoped for that originally), or he could have taken a look a shannon in ep 1. a RISK is only existent if you CANT foresee every move your opponent makes. Really, this is one a the basic premises of umineko as a story, from ep 1 to ep 6. I wonder what was your understanding about how the game worked? your "games" arent chess-games at all, they are just a big theatre show.

Do you know why you have to be careful no logic-error occurs? Because you CANT always predict what your opponent will do. If you could, there would really be no need to be careful not to fall into a logic error. All you can do is be really careful, and be especially careful when using the red truth (stated in umineko itself)- what basically shows that only the basic outlines of the story is written btw, becaue the red is determinding how the story proceeds and could be blocking your next moves - but the reason you have to be careful in the first place is because you dont immediately understand the other players thought-patterns. Becoming a game master =/= knowing what your opponent will do. There would be no "game" according to your theory, in ep 1,2,3,4 and 5, the one between lambda and erika, there would be no game at all. Really, those are all basic "rules" of the game-board. you dont even have to question that. Im not saying anything new or outrageous here. how did you even imagine a game could work or a game like that could ever be called an even match???? And dont tell me now Beato, Battler, Virgilia, Dlanor etc. lied too, when they described Beatos game as exactly that. chess is about to TRY to predict the moves of your opponent, its described as chess because you have to make an effort to do so! AN EFFORT! Becoming a game-master does not automatically enable you to understand the other players thought-patterns.

"she can't ACTUALLY perform secret moves he doesn't know about."

Again: No argument at all! Youre just saying that! I can also say "There is a ACTUALLY a man living on the moon" Im not giving an argument here. Where is your knowledge even coming from??? You just invent something here, while in umineko the opposite is stated! Even Lambda in game 5 is surprised by Erikas move. But sadly you just ignored this fact in your answer...:S Really, you're saying baseless stuff. Of course she can perform moves he doesnt know about! Its written there - in umineko! And you also just ignored everything about the door in ep 8 and Ange disappearing from her room long before Battler realized anything was strange. He even asks himself what Ange has done on the game-board in ep 8- that she probably closed the door by herself - which is not correct! Please, just look at whats written! Its CLEARLY stated that Battler does NOT KNOW everything that happens! Let me borrow you words here Its clearly written there, what more do you need?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The mere suggestion that Battler wouldn't pay attention to what his opponent is doing during her turn in a game he's running is absurd.
No, its not absurd at all XD He pays attention to what she does but he doesnt have to look at every move when Erika is searching through the rooms. It would be boring anyways cause Erika cant decide anything without her detective-ability. He also asks if she did finish her investigation. Again - Lambda also pays no attention to every move Erika does, while shes "sleeping" for example next to the cousins room in ep 5, even though Erika is her opponent in this game. Its not ridiculous at all. Its written there! Why would Erika not wonder about Battler pretending to not having payed attention to her if that was so "absurd" and utterly unthinkable as you claim it is. Erika is pretty dumb in your theory, Ive gotta say. While YOU are appearantly able to realize everything just on the very easy and basic fact that battler is the game-master. Erika is pretty dumb not to do the same isnt she? And not even Beato is not paying attention to every move Battler makes on the game-board in the first episodes. Its absurd to think otherwise actually. Because that goes against everything that has been said until now, and of course, your "lies" are multiplying. Really, you want EVERYTHING to be a lie, just so you can uphold your theory of battler planning the logic error...thats rosatrice reloaded (once agains, sorry to the rosatrice fans)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Bern's never been a Game Master up to this point, so she doesn't need to 'play along'. Lambdadelta, however, is established as being willing to play along with whatever everyone else is doing as a spectator and neutral party, and will play the roles other characters give her so she can enable their Certain Will to Power. It's how her magic works.
You seriously dont believe that Bern doesnt understand what the basic premises of the game-board are, do you? I mean, the game-master is writing the tale. You are appearently already able to predict that the game-master is all-seeing just based on the fact that the game-master is the author. Dont you think that bern should be able to do just the same? It refers to how the game works fundamentally in the first place. You arguing against EVERYTHING that is STATED and say its all a lie...and didnt you say in your post battler inherited beatos magic? and that that magic consists out of being able to trick everyone? that battler is able to do that because he follows in beatos footsteps? and now you say lambda is tricking everyone here (erika, bern and beato) because thats how her magic works? I thought that was beatos magic...You do realize you're randomly making stuff up? XD
If you still want to say Battler caused the logic error based on this statement, I cant argue against that anymore, because you barely use arguments with which you could support your claims. And you certainnly have not refuted one of my arguments with another argument. Even that was explained in Umineko XD You just say, "its not true" or "its ridiulous", how am I supposed to argue against that when youre merely stating your opinion?
the only things that are arguments are - bern was never a game-master and lambda is a neutral party. That isnt really enough as Ive pointed out, but lets just say we'd accept those two for a moment to say not everyone would need to play along. there are still A TON of even stronger! arguments I wrote down, that you have yet to refute.

And let me just tell you that: Battler wrote a story which he put into Beatos coffin => He is the author of the story. He doesnt want anyone to play around with the pieces and the story. Im asking you now. How would anyone be able to play around with the story? He is the author.
You know what? here's basically the biggest hint that battler didnt plan the logic error. It certainly sounds like this is ep 6 done right, like he regrets what happened in ep 6 so he doesnt want anyone to read his story again -"reading" the story aloud means you can play with it, as it is shown! in ep 8 manga. Letting someone read it means youre able to play with the pieces and the same thing could happen what happened in ep 6 - where his family members were killed off. But again, maybe battler is just telling us a lie there in ep 7(sarcasm). And you can ask yourself why both stories are called "dawn" now...


Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
No, it's not, because you didn't even understand what I said.
Well whatever. Even with your response now, it still means everything is a giant lie, with you assuming he can predict everything Erika does. Saying "no its not" isnt an argument. Its like me saying "No, Im not a human"...following what your theory says: Its a lie when he told beato that he wanted to end the game with dawn, he was faking everything in the locked room, he lied when beato rescued him, of course - what you just ignored - dlanor would lie too since she goes along with erikas "ridiculous" plan, and dlanor understands completely (-> Our Confession) how the game works. and when battler was acting like an a** towards beato - this also was just an act. because back then they were already playing the game, the story was already written, and, following your logic, he "can predict and account for what erika is going to do", so the logic error was planned back then already. why act like an a*** when he planned for her to regain her memories from the very start? he should already have come to truly understand that beato wont get her memories back until she saves him from his logic error...oh yeah, and because he wrote the story with the logic error in mind, and the story was finished BEFORE he knew about beato having lost her memories, that makes his behaviour at the beginning of dawn towards beato...well, we have our ultimate solution again: he was only acting when he saw that beato didnt have her memories...
we've been discussing this all before. I could somewhat still agree with jjblue1, saying he saw what erika did on the game-board and he more or less spontaneously reacted to that and let the logic-error occur. But your theory "he can understand her thought process and can predict and account for what she's going to do on the gameboard"
isnt cutting it. Its going against various plot points, even destroys the fundamental premise of all the games ever played. Just this one I can say clearly: this theory of yours is DEFINITELY wrong.
Oh yes, and Erika was the territory lord too, if only for a short while, she too should know how the game-board (=the territory) works.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Also, even if Battler DID have that much control, it only serves things thematically because it means he's behaving like Beatrice and performing her level of tricks. He understands Beatrice's heart and demonstrates it BECAUSE he effects everyone with the Logic Error.
It doesnt serve thematically at all. Let me explain please: He says he wanted to go all out with Erika as well, but as game-master he is now -following your theory- all-seeing, and erika can never make a move he cant foresee. how is that serving anything? it also means battler is pretending, pretending, pretending, and every emotional involvement in ep 6 is gone! Pouff!Beato back in ep 3 was betraying battler more or less, battler has never done something like that, he is never playing around with his opponents. he just wants to have a fair game and he even wants to be friends with bern! how exactly is repeating the same mistakes (yes, they are mistakes as even beato more or less admits later in manga 8!!) and sh** behaviour that beato showed serving things thematically?
what REALLY is serving things thematically is the following: battler in prime was, and Im now almost 100% sure about that, -at least for a while- locked in a room without him knowing how it happened and without him wanting that to happen.
and serving things thematically is also that he completely!! understands magic and wants to end the game with ep 6 (as he said to beato then, of course, you'd say he lied again). and its also quite clear what "understanding magic and ending everything" means right? Im sorry, dont take it the wrong way please, but you havent understood uminekos message at all when you say "ultimate magic is about tricking everyone". Actually, you're still at phase 1 of the story, the way battler was or how erika is, when they think of magic is just the way to trick everyone around them really well...thats only superficially what magic is about.
we have seen it once before in the games what happens when someone does what battler says he wants to do with dawn, when someone "ends it all"...so its really pretty easy to see what battlers goal was in this 6th game, there is just one way to end everyhing and bring beato out of the game board after all... and what happened in ep 6 was ANYTHING BUT THAT. It went a completely different route.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
There's also the whole thing with Sorcerer Battler serving as a symbolic representation of the author Toya, Kinzo, and also of Beatrice's magic in action. All those suggest a person willing and able to trick absolutely everyone with a really simple trick that, no matter how it ultimately turns out, would have given him the result he wanted out of the gamble. And that he can get this result literally by rigging the dice or lying about the result of the outcome.

This is literally how Beato's magic works, and Battler inherited it.
Lol, no no! You did not understand magic at all...Umineko screams it in your face what magic is and what Battler wants to do with his "last" game "dawn". Beatos way of doing things was WRONG! it would have been much easier to "write a love letter" and battler in ep 8 FORGAVE her for what she did to him in all those games. he isnt repeating her "black magic" and everything she did, cause he doesnt consider that being worthy to be repeated. Really, did you even notice they were in "purgatory" and that Beato is the Nr.1 on the mountain and she too needs forgiveness? Magic is NOT about tricking everyone. You're basically saying now, battler became a "black sorcerer". You just have to ask yourself what beato wanted to do the whole time (repeated so often) and how meta-battler and meta-beato etc. even exist in the first place - that was shown even before in a game - and voilÓ, you have your answer to what real magic is. and i mean the real real magic, the one you have to understand "completely". its not something simple like "being able to trick someone". I wrote about that already in a previous post, so repeating everything here is taking too long...

but here you're completely right:
"Sorcerer Battler serving as a symbolic representation of [...] Kinzo."

You do realize that Battler comes to recognize the new Beato as her DAUGHTER? And that is something Kinzo never could do, he forced Beatrices daughter to be beatrice until the very end, when she fell from the cliff. He forced her to be her "old self", a mistake Battler DOESNT make. Battler is repeating the story, but this time, he is doing it THE RIGHT WAY. But wait, if I follow your theory, this is not correct. The scene in the room after battler was mean to beato is just fake after all, he only lied before too, since he already planned for the logic error to happen from the very beginning. So all the talk about accepting the new Beato as Beatos daughter is of course, also just fake...:S
so much for "serving things thematically"...


Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post

Citation, please? Ryukishi hasn't exactly been the most consistent in his interviews.
Yes, Ill look it up for you. I might even edit this post later on. But PLEASE dont say Ryukishi lied too? XD

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post

Though if they are the same it just sort of leans towards my interpretation of Battler the Mastermind, so either way I'm fine with the outcome. :P
No, it doesnt actually, because this time, he doesnt want anyone to be able to read his story. if everything was just as planned, we'd have already seen it all..it says exactly that: he had a story in mind that didnt work out as he planned, because he let someone else read it and therefore, this someone played around with his pieces in a way he didnt intend it do happen. now he wants to give beato the original story he wrote.
and now think about why his very last present for beato is a story! think about why a book has such a big meaning that he made it his last present for beato and you basically have your answer to what he wants to do when he says in ep 6 "im gonna end everything with this game". Ive already written it in a post, but ill repeat it later on again, this post is long enough as it is...

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
You're not understanding the paradox I mentioned, then. At the end of the game, the bomb will explode. However, time will not advance. That the reader never progresses the 'story' beyond Kanon's rescue mission doesn't change the fact that on the last page of the book everything explodes. You're just refusing to flip the pages that far. The red is valid.

No, I understood your paradox very well. Its called a paradox for a reason...but really, you cant argue against paradoxes at all. thats why I tried to tell you: "Kanon, though youre spending eternity in a closet, rest assured, you'll be rescued once the bomb explodes." I understand your paradox here, I know you're saying its a paradox and in a way, he will never be rescued. But I wonder if Kanon, having such a good understanding about the fact that they basically live in a book and the basic premises of the world, would think like that. thats why I said I dont find your paradox very convincing.

And lets think about it like that: ryukishi gave us this red truth. and he wanted us to be able to understand WHY he gave us this red truth. you really think that he'd want us to "solve" this red truth by applying this paradox????Im asking you here from a really normal reader-author-perspective. Remember,this truth is not something that is said in the middle of the story where he could have made a little "mistake" by not paying attentions to all the details, its a red truth that is shown AFTER THE CREDITS of the very last ???-part of episode 6. if he didnt explicitly! want to, there would have been no reason to show it to us, different from the red truth in ep 4. Im asking you again: Do you HONESTLY think he'd give us this red truth at the end of episode 6, a completely unnecessary!!! red truth, to make us solve it by using one of Zenos paradoxes? why??? just why???? what would be the purpose???Please, answer honestly what you'd think about his story-writing here if that were the case...

Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-03-14 at 15:17.
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