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View Poll Results: Toradora! - Episode 15 Rating
Perfect 10 17 20.73%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 31 37.80%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 24 29.27%
7 out of 10 : Good 8 9.76%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 1.22%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 1.22%
Voters: 82. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-01-16, 06:33   Link #101
BetoJR
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There's a fundamental flaw to your stance, Darknemo2000... the more information we have on something, the better our perception of that something turns out to be. It's just a matter of depth perception (not the visual kind, by the way) - and a factual one, at that.
Now, you can discount that information all you want, but more information about a character does, indeed, add to that character's depth. If you don't think it's all that relevant to the way the character behaves or whatever, well, that's another matter entirely.
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Old 2009-01-16, 06:51   Link #102
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I really like Kitamura despite how many people don't care for him, so I'm really happy that we have an arc based around him. He's a main character but so far it's just been so circled around the three girls that he was almost forgotten. It's kind of annoying how there's this air of confusion with his changes, but I have a belief that the directors did that on purpose. You do want to care for Yuusaku and know what happened to him. Anyone agree?

Anyway, I did like the episode even though it had a lot of weird moments. I Minori really shined due to her insight and there were plenty of cute moments with Taiga and Ryuuji. Yasuko gets points too for being angry for the first time and then the whole scene where they plan to dye his hair back.

I do have a couple of issues with the episode nonetheless:

-Yeah, Ami got too little screentime. I wouldn't of been irritated with this, but it feels like that the left her in such a negative mood in the little time they showed us.
-Taiga's realization towards Kitamura felt a bit forced and random.
-It feels like since Sumire is the cause of Yuusaku's attitude, they should of reflected more on her.

And on a smaller note, Ami's friends kept refering Kitamura to as "Maruo." (Atleast from the subs I watched) I was thinking that they call him Mauro since that sounds like Marimo. Marimo = Green Algae. Yet when they try to dye his hair back, you notice that they plan to use black dye. Was there any reason for the name change or what?
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Old 2009-01-16, 07:21   Link #103
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Wow wow wow , don't become angry all , it's just an anime (even though i hate kitamura's character but it can be helped , you like or dislike some character ) !
I'm worried about , japanese , are they really like in anime ? i know there are somethings they are like anime's character (most japanese are timid ...... )
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Old 2009-01-16, 07:22   Link #104
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Originally Posted by Nukerjsr View Post
-Yeah, Ami got too little screentime. I wouldn't of been irritated with this, but it feels like that the left her in such a negative mood in the little time they showed us.
Well yes, because everyone is making a big fuss about Kitamura being abnormal and would pay so much attention to him just because he's being emo. While on the other hand, as Ami said, "It's nice to have people pay attention to you just by yelling", because Ami herself wants people to help her too but hardly anyone would notice except Ryuji whom just barely noticed (refer to previous episode), and you wonder why she is in a bad mood?

Quote:
-It feels like since Sumire is the cause of Yuusaku's attitude, they should of reflected more on her.
It's not even the end of the arc yet, be patient.

Quote:
And on a smaller note, Ami's friends kept refering Kitamura to as "Maruo." (Atleast from the subs I watched) I was thinking that they call him Mauro since that sounds like Marimo. Marimo = Green Algae. Yet when they try to dye his hair back, you notice that they plan to use black dye. Was there any reason for the name change or what?
Maruo is a reference to the anime character in Chibi Maruko-chan Maruo Suneo, who is basically Mr. Perfect-class president-goodie-two-shoes just like Kitamura is and hence the people call him that, it's got nothing to do with Marimo.
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Old 2009-01-16, 08:07   Link #105
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Thouroughly enjoyed watching episode 15, there's just a little bit of everyone and a lot about Kitamura and Taiga on this episode.

Ami frowns when the council president says she's disappointed at Kitamura, shows that Ami cares for Kitamura (as a friend) because she doesn't like someone saying bad things about him. A little about Minori too... she thinks of herself as "haughty" and "unfair" (watched Shukumei's subs) I wonder why?

For Kitamura's situation, I think there's something the student council president wants him to do but he can't do it.
Eventhough he's depressed, I like how he still tries to be kind, like how he ate the burnt egg that Taiga cooked. I hope things will get better for him later on.

Taiga is doing her best to cheer up Kitamura, I kind of expected her to do that.
What I didn't expect was that she would really be bothered that Kitamura wasn't cheered up, I realized on this episode that Taiga really likes Kitamura from the bottom of her heart and it's not just a simple crush. The comparison Taiga made about the distance of the stars with distnace in people's relationships also surprised me, she can be perceptive if she wants too.

*can't wait for next episode

Last edited by Liddo-kun; 2009-01-16 at 10:47.
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Old 2009-01-16, 08:13   Link #106
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It goes both ways - she could be lying in vol6 or lying later during the confession. However her actions in the later arc (Christmas, school trips etc) and the nature of the confession supports what she said later being the truth, rather than the former being true, making her actions in volume 6 going in conflict to what she said she wants to do and thus make that scene out of place.
The way this conversation with Ryuuji has been described this sounds so strange and convoluted, who talks like that? It's actually one of the reasons I disagree with Nemo about Kitamura in this particular story, his rationalization for what he's doing really humanized him for me because it seemed like something someone his age would really do when they get depressed. It's cliche, it's supposed to be. The characters even say so, he's a nerd who doesn't know how to rebel properly. Ami on the other hand, dunno how I'm going to be able to sympathize with her. It's a damn shame too because up to this point she's probably been my favorite character.
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Old 2009-01-16, 08:29   Link #107
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Ho to all...

Well i think that kitamura reactions it`s a prove that our way to see kitamura was complete wrong...

In the beginning we see kitamura as some mature kid, with responsibilities (as vicepresident of the student council) and we think that was his true self...

But when he talk with sumire, he learn someting (in the anime that is still a mystery) about Sumire, and his reactionts show us something about kitamura...

Becoming "Emo" just show us, that kitamura is no mature at all, is just a kid...

Becouse a Mature person will confrount the situation, kitamura just run away, he tries that his problems resolve by itself just by he becoming "emo"...

Is Like a kid, How don't want to Eat Soup, and stop breathing until his mom/dad say "well what do you wanna eat"...

In this chapter we see that kitamura is still a kid, a stupid kid, who don't know how to confront unexpected thing, the fact that he became "Emo" or a "yanki" is not the main theme, the theme is he believes that "Becoming emo" is the way of resolving his problems...

And that IS something Deep, i think that he becoming "emo" is just a way to see the his truly immature nature...

And i thing he has a good reason for becoming "emo" but no for just what Sumire said to him, but also the implications of what she said (but leave that for the next episode)...

Sorry for my bad english... BYE!!!
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Old 2009-01-16, 08:32   Link #108
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Is it just me or is the likelihood of a TaigaxRyuuji ending seems to be getting slimer by the episode?
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Old 2009-01-16, 08:54   Link #109
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There's a fundamental flaw to your stance, Darknemo2000... the more information we have on something, the better our perception of that something turns out to be. It's just a matter of depth perception (not the visual kind, by the way) - and a factual one, at that.
Now, you can discount that information all you want, but more information about a character does, indeed, add to that character's depth. If you don't think it's all that relevant to the way the character behaves or whatever, well, that's another matter entirely.
It depends on what you call character depth. If background info on that character is depth then Ranma or Goku must be one of your greatest models of characters depth.

I count depth not as a background information but actually how profound the called info makes the character to be. After all there are cases where we get a lot of info about characters background but it still doenst create a very deep or realistic charcter with whom one could easily empathize with.

So it is not a flaw in my position but rather my opinion, which you call flow based... on your own opinion, which is not better or worse than mine, and which will turn out into another sparring without any conclusion anyway.

typhonsentra, I do not think it really humanizes him. To do that you would need to make charcter realistic, for me Kitamura's acts are not that unrealistic (even considering the teenage age, you have to remember that not that many teenagers tend to overact as this). Again this is my opinion but I feel that the tension constructed in here feels too forced, even if we take his age into account.

Now if he would be made as a realistic character to begin with then yes, but he is far from that and one hastily thrown flow hardly make him deeper because he still looks artificiial (like most harem leads) and his problems look like that as well. Again this is my opinion (I now will need to add this to me every sentence so taht poeple do not think that I am making it into objective sentence).

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Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
Is it just me or is the likelihood of a TaigaxRyuuji ending seems to be getting slimer by the episode?
Thats one of the thing I do not like too much in the series. Romantical build of RyuujixTaiga is very poor and yet the author wants them to be a romatically involved pairing. For me it looks better if they were to remain soul buddies, and Ryuuji would find his happiness with Ami (or Maybe Minori, is she would change her ways of acting). Romantically TaigaxRyuuji just do not look solid enough, tahts why it can make you question the likeness of such ending. But at least from what it looks the author wants it to be this way...

Last edited by Darknemo2000; 2009-01-16 at 09:05.
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Old 2009-01-16, 09:03   Link #110
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Is it just me or is the likelihood of a TaigaxRyuuji ending seems to be getting slimer by the episode?
It's actually getting more and more certain. Because as much as I dislike Taiga for being a bitch, I don't think she's evil and I also think her bitchiness is simply to mask her vulnerability. Sooner or later she will come to see that Ryuuji has always been there for her, and her loyalties will change. Crushes are mere periods of temporary infatuation; true love is established on sacrifice and timelessness, and Taiga will see it for herself.
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Old 2009-01-16, 09:12   Link #111
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There's just no arguing with you, is there, Darknemo2000?
It's not an opinion: more factual information adds to the perception of something. End of story. You're debating the merits of said information and whether they are relevant to your opinion on whatever the relevant subject is. Oh, well... I'm off.
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Old 2009-01-16, 09:17   Link #112
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It is not a fact that more information adds to perception of something. You are overassuming some things. Sometimes more information destabilizes perception of something and make it more shallow then the perfection with the less information. Yes more information can actually be more harmful and misleading than the similar information with less of actual info.

In modern world we do suffer from too much of information whivch harms our perception of the things and their depth. Baurdillard has a few analytic books regarding the modernism in our society and the information perception, pretty good if you'd ignore some of his rather crazy theories.

You are once again putting your opinion and saying it is objective fact while it is eternally subjective. Juts like mine mind, but you should really look at what you yourself try to express and if it really is objective. In most case, if you'd look deeper you will find a lot of subjectivity in seemingly objective facts.
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Old 2009-01-16, 09:21   Link #113
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Its the fact that Taiga is basically blind to Ryuuji. Her saying "Kitamura-kun is always there for me, when no one else is" is complete bull that made me wanna puke.
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Old 2009-01-16, 09:37   Link #114
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The way this conversation with Ryuuji has been described this sounds so strange and convoluted, who talks like that?
Of course Ami has her own reasons for that particular conversation, but going into details is beyond the scope of this thread.
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Old 2009-01-16, 09:53   Link #115
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It is not a fact that more information adds to perception of something. You are overassuming some things. Sometimes more information destabilizes perception of something and make it more shallow then the perfection with the less information. Yes more information can actually be more harmful and misleading than the similar information with less of actual info.

In modern world we do suffer from too much of information whivch harms our perception of the things and their depth. Baurdillard has a few analytic books regarding the modernism in our society and the information perception, pretty good if you'd ignore some of his rather crazy theories.

You are once again putting your opinion and saying it is objective fact while it is eternally subjective. Juts like mine mind, but you should really look at what you yourself try to express and if it really is objective. In most case, if you'd look deeper you will find a lot of subjectivity in seemingly objective facts.
Hmmm... erm... I... you mean there's no objectiveness anywhere?

Look, you stick with your post-modernist theories and I'll stick with my academic views that the more we know about something, the more we know about something. This topic has become officially too weird for me. See ya!
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Old 2009-01-16, 10:15   Link #116
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I will admit i was not expecting Kitamura to basically have a nervous break down over what transpired between him and the Student Council Prez. Although i really have a feeling about what really happened i will have to confirm with the novels because Kitamura's behavior actually is making sense to me. Everyone reacts differently to situations the seemingly strong willed Kitamura crumbled when something didnt go his way. The result is him acting out dyeing his hair, quitting the student council, screaming and yelling to get out his frustration. Though this is not the way i would handle a situation i am also not teenager prone to random outburst of emotion. Kitamura's scenes showed me personally he is human which i think through all his other interaction is something was missed. The perception that he had everything together was shattered as he could not handle even one piece of news shows just how human he is.

Do i think he acted his age absolutely do i think it was over the top no not really it was way to get the point across that something was eating him up inside. Im fairly certain that whatever happened between the two involved something the Prez wanted him to do and also maybe a confession which ended badly for Kitamura. But i guess we will find out in the next episode. Either way it was obvious that she had high expectations for him and his actions letting her down. She called him him stupid and a waste of time and when Ami confronted her about her about it, her reply made it all more obvious that something personal transpired between her and Kitamura. I felt the emotions were portrayed fluently and coherently i recognize that some people thought many scenes were contrived and Emo i however had no such feelings towards any of the scenes.

For the second time we see Taiga burst into tears. This time its over her inability to help Kitamura and understand exactly what his pain is hence her saying "im no good" Her feelings for Kitamura are still there but i have noticed a slight change in how she deals with him its ever so slight . She did manage to irritate me with her "Kitamura-kun has always been there for me" while Ryu is standing right next to her she is very blinded by her infatuation sometimes. but for those who think that a TaigaxRyu ending is moving further and further away dont count on it there is plenty of evidence to support that the battle is not even halfway over. Taiga's intuition about Kitamura's problems stemming from the the Student Council prez is not far off which prompted her to think the only way to fix the problem is remove him from her side. This is the basis of Taiga's thinking about most things remove it and it will be ok. Though that thinking is not exactly flawed it does not always work especially in this situation where there is evidence to support that Kitamura has feelings for his sempai.

I found Minorin speech to Ryu interesting as she once again shows that she can be quite intelligent and thoughtful about situations. However she herself does not know that much about Ami as well. Anyhow at least there was some screen time involving Ami even though i really wish they stop pushing her character to the side because she is a very interesting and dynamic character with lots of range as i find Minorin the same in most episodes which does not get very interested in her at all.

Over a very good episode the story is moving maybe not as fast as some would like. But imo JC.Staff is on the right track with progression and character development hopefully the direction stays fluid and does not try to go to some alternate world of forced drama.

8/10
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Old 2009-01-16, 10:25   Link #117
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Hmmm... erm... I... you mean there's no objectiveness anywhere?

Look, you stick with your post-modernist theories and I'll stick with my academic views that the more we know about something, the more we know about something. This topic has become officially too weird for me. See ya!
Can you really point out something objective that would go beyond solipsism? If so then there are ultimately objective thing yet so far I never heard of such thing.

You just have to believe that some things are objective - like saying 2+2=4 but even there the individual perception of the mathematical action exists.

And you should know that solipsism is not really post-modern. Unless you are saying that the first Cynics (note Cynics as philosophical school, not in casual meaning of cynics) since Socrates times where post-modern, or Descrates... which I hope you do not.

The question of objectiveness is still disputed as in what is really objective and can such thing be as objectiveness there. Some, like Nietzsche believed such phenomena as objectiveness non existant, some tried to defeat the solipsism (aka Descrates and his demiurg) with belief....

Basically it is the way, not to go mad, you just have to assume and believe some things to be objective even if you really look at deep enough you will see that what we held to be objective is really subjective, be it formula's or laws.

But again it wasn't what I was trying to point out with my posts. I was trying to say that you are assuming too much saying that it is a fact that more info deepens ones understanding of a certain thing and action - it really is not a fact, and can be disputed, specially in modern world where information has to be limited for us to understand few things better.

But lets go back to Kitamura, lol.

If you want you can come to some philosophy forums to discuss this theme, as objectiveness is one of those eternal problems that no one found an answer to so far (or in this case a proof that it really exists).
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Old 2009-01-16, 10:33   Link #118
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Well i agree with you...

But the story was always (at least for me) too rash, for me the series is too fast, they eat each light novel in 2 chapters (except for 5 in 3 and 6 in 2 1/2)...

But hey is just my opinion...
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Old 2009-01-16, 10:36   Link #119
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yeah the pace is going too fast and some times you may feel that the eps are'nt so connected but it's good so far
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Old 2009-01-16, 11:34   Link #120
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yeah the pace is going too fast and some times you may feel that the eps are'nt so connected but it's good so far
I dont have the feeling the episodes arent so connected. I mean its everyday life do people feel disconnected in their own lives day to day. I just look at it as telling a story day by day in which different events occur. But everyone percieves story progression differently just like how some think the anime is moving too fast and then there are others who do not feel it is so. Majority of the novel readers feel the story is moving too fast iv noticed but there is always going to be some type of problem when creating an anime adaption from manga you cant please everyone. I mean how many times do we hear the manga/novel is so much better a day around here?
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