2010-12-28, 19:27 | Link #2461 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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In addition any theory that sassumes the existence of two distinct persons named Kanon and Shannon does't explain the love duel as well as a theory that assumes there's only one person.
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2010-12-28, 19:29 | Link #2462 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Well, some of the masters of the genre during the golden age treated servants like furniture, as in really just accessories to the house. I think Carr wrote something about it at one point actively calling them furniture. So Genji and Shannon/Kanon (superficially) are probably trying to fit that traditional mold of the servants in that era
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2010-12-28, 19:36 | Link #2463 |
Senior Member
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How does Shkanon get by the first twilight of the first game? There are no body double tricks, and Battler is standing beside Kanon, who burns Shannon's face into his eyes.
So, there are 2 possibilities I can see. 1) Hideyoshi is lying, there is no corpse there, and Kanon (being Shannon) is playing along. 2) Kanon isn't actually there, and the scene is a lie. Is there some other option here? If you pick number 1, does that mean Hideyoshi/Eva are the culprit? But then why do they die next, and the murder is almost certainly carried out by Kanon and crew? If you pick #2, well, if you ask me, that's a pretty lame solution. That means most of what we've seen is probably false too. |
2010-12-28, 19:38 | Link #2464 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Germany
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Only possible reason I thought of concerning Genji was the following: Yasu was so deranged because of her body issues, that she actually started to refer to herself as "furniture" in front of others, such as the fellow servants, or Natsuhi/Krauss (maybe even Kinzo). To cover this up and not make Yasu stand out even more, he started using the expression as well. But then why doesn't Kumasawa use it as well to refer to herself? (She doesn't if I remember correctly? Or am I wrong here?) She was always shown as kind of a protective mother figure to Yasu, so she'd probably want to support her as well. |
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2010-12-28, 19:41 | Link #2465 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Germany
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After "battling" Clair, he even says something along the lines of: "But this was a risky game to begin with. What if the poor guy wanted to see her face and stepped inside?" Which can only mean George and is thus heavily implying Shannon's corpse was never there to begin with. Which leaves the question as to why Hideyoshi was lying. |
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2010-12-28, 19:46 | Link #2466 | |||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
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This is my last post for now; I'm retiring for the night. If you want to continue this, TehChron, I'll read your response tomorrow.
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2) "Because everyone thinks so" is not automatic proof for Shkanon, and I am -not- the only one to raise objections to Shkanon (there were several objections earlier in the thread, and more in the Spoilers & Speculations thread; the latest I remember was Renall's, but I know of more). I don't even disagree with Shkanon, only the most common iteration of it. 3) Let me tell you what a debate is. It's not an aggressive back-and-forth "argument", for one. It's not a game of proving me wrong. It's objectively, patiently, and respectfully weighing your perspective against another's, and forming unbiased conclusions. You haven't once been respectful or patient, nor have you ever tried to even consider what I'm saying might be more than complete rubbish. I expect at least some maturity from anyone I debate with, and you've exhibited none of it. Have I been mature? Maybe not enough. But I carefully weighed my position against yours and Aura's, and I freely admitted I could very well be wrong. Last edited by witchfan; 2010-12-28 at 20:00. |
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2010-12-28, 19:52 | Link #2467 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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Spoiler for size:
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2010-12-28, 19:56 | Link #2468 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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They are probably referring to Kinzo when they say "father" though. Not Battler.
This is what I thought from the beginning, seeing as how they've always been said to have been made by Kinzo. However I never suspected that they actually meant their biological father...
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2010-12-28, 19:57 | Link #2469 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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That's a pretty big leap to claim that they have to be the culprit just because they go along with a lie. When everybody has so far gone with more than one lie at some point in Umineko. Episodes 5 and 6 pretty much demonstrate this to the up-tenth degree. You're forgetting plenty of other people who are complicit in being silent about this lie in this scene too.
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2010-12-28, 20:00 | Link #2470 | |||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
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Like it? I thought you would need some confirmation of what my intentions were.
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Supporting evidence is something you demanded of others. Quote:
Why should I take you seriously, anyway? Aren't you the one looking for validation? Quote:
There are only 17, confirmed, in Episode 6. Once again, your explanation is not supported by the text. I did read your argument, but it's almost entirely your speculation. But please, if the evidence is on hand, feel free to re-cite it. Quote:
If it's supported by the text, even better. Quote:
That's hypocrisy. Quote:
Just because you refuse to accept it doesnt make it any less viable a possibility. Again, arrogance. Quote:
So let me tell you something: When you yourself can adhere to the standards you yourself have set, then you can lecture others. But until you can get over your own bias towards your own conclusions, you have no business acting like an authority on argumentation. |
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2010-12-28, 20:06 | Link #2471 | ||
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Additionally, we can believe Yasu would take such a large chance, but Hideyoshi taking such a chance, too? Wouldn't Hideyoshi be scared someone would look at the non-existant corpse's face? |
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2010-12-28, 20:40 | Link #2473 | ||||
The True Culprit
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The point of the matter is that both Shannon and Kanon refer to Kinzo/Kinzo Allegory as their Father. This makes sense for Shannon, but why Kanon? Quote:
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2010-12-28, 20:50 | Link #2474 | |
Senior Member
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Wouldn't Hideyoshi be worried that someone besides George would see Shannon's non-existant body? If Hideyoshi is lying, he is somehow in on the murders, but why does he end up dead next? Especially when the only person who would kill him is the Shkanon that he just cooperated with? |
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2010-12-28, 20:52 | Link #2475 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
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Kanon's fine since he's YasuShannon. And the reason the pay off works is because Hideyoshi's share of that 1 billion yen would probably be enough to save his company. |
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2010-12-28, 21:09 | Link #2479 | ||
The True Culprit
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That, or Kanon secretly has a pistol against Hideyoshi and is all "Do what I say, fatso." Quote:
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2010-12-28, 21:09 | Link #2480 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
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Eva is much too cautious for such an oversight. So clearly they thought there was no danger. So therefore, why did they think there was no danger? Thats the question. And the only reasonable answer is that they didn't think it could affect them. Why is that? Either theyre the culprits themselves (lol) or they knew about the murder game. That they really got murdered or not has no bearing on whether or not they thought the first twilight was real. But the status of the chain does. |
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