Gundam Build Divers Re:RISE - General and Episode Discussions

[Tenzen12]

As far as criterias go I indeed seem to have higher standarts then you. I apologise for not stating mine beforehand. I wasn't aware it was mandatory.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

^ And what is this random "standard" of female characters that you're talking about? You can only talk big if you can describe & define it first.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

To hell with Tenzen's unreasonable complaints. Let's get to the more fun stuff and the actual episode.

YouTube

https://youtu.be/rOYvAdrieXk

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I'm also liking that they clearly established Cuadorn's beam attack being powerful enough to break Nu's "beam barrier pyramid" defense back in CCA. Also, no attacks from Alus can penetrate Aegis' shield. It truly lives up to its legendary shield name.

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

^ And what is this random "standard" of female characters that you're talking about? You can only talk big if you can describe & define it first.

It involve not getting randomly shot down and showing consistent good decision making.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

It involve not getting randomly shot down and showing consistent good decision making.

That's like 80+% of the female characters that I already mentioned & more. So your "only a handful (aka.5)"-argument still doesn't hold water.

[Tenzen12]

And I disagree.

[Cao Ni Ma]

I dont think its an exaggeration to say gundam usually has not treated women characters well, not just from a piloting perspective. I dont know how that can be a point of contention.

But just focusing on combat ability here, which woman character in gundam could go toe to toe against the shows male protagonist and realistically beat them? In UC its probably just Haman. I dont think any of the AUs even have a Haman analogue.

May is pound for pound as good of a pilot as Hiroto and for the first half of the series significantly more stable than him despite having 0 experience playing with other people. She's an AI yes, but she's also been alive for a fraction of the time Hiroto has. Hell she wasn't even alive when Hiroto was already an expert in the game.

Another forum's gundam thread just recently went through like a 5 page discussion on how bad the series has rep women. And outside of Haman's combat prowess and political power the other series that fair better than the rest were Wing, IBO and Turn A. And none of them were because of the piloting abilities of their women. Its more about their political power and actually achieving what they set out to do, not as the protagonists girlfriends.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

which woman character in gundam could go toe to toe against the shows male protagonist and realistically beat them

That is called the power of the MC's plot. It has nothing to do with gender. If you've seen Twilight AXIS, that show has a female MC who fought a superior pilot & superior mecha and yet she can still survive thanks to the power of plot armor. It's really not that different from many of her male MC counterparts.

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

I dont think its an exaggeration to say gundam usually has not treated women characters well, not just from a piloting perspective. I dont know how that can be a point of contention.

MSG, Zeta & Origin treat the femalo co-protags really well and the character development for them are exceptional. ZZ shit the bed on that regards but that's because the show is overall bad. CCA is pretty neutral since even the MC is dead by the end of the movie.

1. 0080 has a great female co-protag in Christina Mackenzie.
2. 0083 has Cima Garahau who only got defeated by the MC using a powerful Dendrobium.
3. 08th MS Team has Karen Joshua who is a competent second-in-command in her team outranking Sanders.
4. Gundam Thunderbolt: We have Bianca Carlyle who kicks so many asses even though she only pilots mass-produced MSs. She even saved Io/Atlas at one point in the story.
5. MS IGLOO 1 & 2: Gravity Front has Monique Cadillac who is yet another competent officer and a better pilot than the MC, Oliver, himself. There's also Arleen Nazon who is the MC of her own story and a badass Guntank pilot.
6. Gundam Unicorn: Marida Cruz, enough said.
7. Gundam Narrative: Rita is such an anomaly. But you can still count her. She's one of the most powerful newtypes in the UC so far.

G-Saviour: we don't talk about it.

Starting the AU:

1. G Gundam has Rain Mikamura who is a highly competent mechanic, medic and pilot herself. Her various range of skills actually outnumber Domon's. Alongside Allenby, Rain also has her own Gundam specifically designed for her instead of hand-me-downs Gundam Mk-II & Zeta like what Roux & Elle got in ZZ.
   
2. Gundam Wing has the awesome Lady Une who is actually capable of landing a hit to Wu Fei/Shen Long even though she only piloted a freakin' Leo who will usually blow up if you're as much as sneeze at it. This is a woman who can shoot a man right in the head when he was falling from a plane. I bet you Haman Karn can't even do that . Honorable mention also goes to Lucrezia Noin.
   
3. Gundam X has the obsessive Ennil El whose piloting abilty rivals that of the MC, Garrod, himself. Garrod only has the upper hand over her because he pilot the Gundam.
   
4. Turn-A Gundam doesn't really have a super powerful female pilot but Sochie Heim actually grows better and better when it comes to piloting which is impressive considering she started as a pampered lady with Zero skill about war. So hie actually undergoes a growth similar to that of a typical Gundam MC.
   
5. SEED/Destiny/Astray at least has prominent side characters who are actually great pilots like Shiho Hahnenfuss, Hilda Harken and Rondo Mina Sahaku that rivals even Astray MC, Lowe Gear.
   
6. Gundam Stargazer has Selene McGriff who did a real good job defeating the MC, Sven, and his Strike Noir using a non-military Gundam even though she's just a scientist.
   
7. Gundam 00 has Soma Peries who can fight toe-to-toe with the CB boyband before Setsuna activated his MC powers.
   
8. Gundam AGE is simply terrible towards its female characters. Just terrible. And it's also the biggest TV flop in the franchise so far, which is well deserved.
   
9. Gundam IBO has Amida Arca, Lafter Frankland & Azee Gurumin. Their skills even put the MC on the rope during their first MS battle. If the battle wasn't stopped by Orga & Naze, Mika & co would've been killed by them. After that, they become friends who help the protags.
   
10. Even G-Reco, as bad as it is, still has very competent female pilot like Mick Jack and that pink/orange-haired antagonist girl whose name escapes right now (not Aida).

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Another forum's gundam thread just recently went through like a 5 page discussion on how bad the series has rep women. And outside of Haman's combat prowess and political power the other series that fair better than the rest were Wing, IBO and Turn A. And none of them were because of the piloting abilities of their women. Its more about their political power and actually achieving what they set out to do, not as the protagonists girlfriends.

See my answers above.

Those who said that Gundam overall disrespect female characters clearly don't know what they're talking about.

[Tenzen12]

If they get beaten by plot convenience and MCs plot armor it just means they weren't meant to be good enough by decision of writer of plot.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

If they get beaten by plot convenience and MC plot armor it just means they weren't meant to be good enough.

MC plot armor defeats all regardless of gender. Also, just because characters got killed doesn't mean they are disrespected. And just because characters survived the show doesn't mean they are honored. Look at Kamina vs. Yazan. One died in glory and the other continued to live in shame.

Plus, you've been spouting BS all this time without a good argument and evidence anyway.

[Tenzen12]

Because I don't like writing essays just to defend of hand comments. Anyway consistently good pilot need more then two battles, especially if they got killed in second one Majority of antagonists don't live long enough to do justice to their hype.

MSG: Sayla as good as she eventually gets cannot even get close to Char/Amuro. Antagonist pilots are somehow competent, but they practically never win against main crew.

0080: Chris is good, but two battles on one where she struggled against lone Zaku is not consistent enough.

8th team: Karen is awesome, certainly one of my most favorite pilots regardless of gender. Her piloting skill aren't as good as Kou, but she is much more competent in every other aspect (which is not that hard given Araki is retard). She get minus points for not doing that well against Gouf Custom and not shooting down deserter when she could.

IGLOO:Monique is good.


Unicorn: I like Marrida, but anyone who loose Gundam so many times doesn't deserve to be called competent. She also didn't last exactly long...

G Gundam: Is Gundam only by name. Personally I don't count it. That's my personal opinion and I don't mind if you disagree.


Wing: As I said before decision making is pretty important part and multiple personality gimmick doesn't do her service. She also is more of commandeer then pilot.

X: viz above stalker=/=good decision making


SEED: Didn't see Astray. Hilda I don't think she great achievement, she may not get shot down I guess?

00: Soma get eventually get there in like second part of second season. She is somewhat okey-is all that time before and that's not enough if you fight against Gundam class.

IBO: Turbine girls are great, rational and consistently productive.

Here you get your essay take it or let be.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Im not talking explicitly about combat ability

Marida is a terrible example, basically the crystallization of gundams problems with writing women into a condensed form. She's a Ple- girls written into the story do die tragically to make you sad and power up the male cast.

Rain is another bad example, she's defined by her relationship to the protagonist. In this case Rain is Domon's girlfriend first and foremost. She gets kidnapped and becomes a living naked CPU for the big bad robot in the end and has to be saved.

Cima might be fine on paper but she's as bypolar as everyone else in 0083 and 0083 has fucking Nina in it which is probably one of the worst written women characters in a gundam outside of Victory.

All of the Turbine girls in IBO end up fridged to make Tekkadan angry. Thank god the writer actually has the rest of the women succeed independently from tekkadan because had they gone with the original ending it would have been almost Victory levels of bad.

Victory had an entire squad of women die off one by one to make the protagonist sad and constantly talking about how women should stay out of the battlefield and stay home having babies. It had the infamous bikini suicide rush. The original series, Zeta and ZZ had problems too with how women were characterized, a lot of times the shows would go into these wild tangents about men and women that was almost alien in their stupidity but at least they didnt have bikini suicide squad. Thank god Tomino got better for Turn A.

Despite May being a good pilot, I wouldn't say that Re:Rise has good women characterization. There are 4 prominent women in the show and two of them are entirely characterized by their relationship to Hiroto. (His RL girlfriend which I cant even remember her name, Eve whose death had a major impact on Hiroto pre-start of the series, Maya who is actually independent and competent in her own right and May which is the same and also good at fighting.

Despite that I'd say that Divers is probably the best one in this regard in the Build series.

e-Speaking of Build and "MC Plot Armor" where are the women main protagonists in gundam? Why is it that we can't really ever say "Well of course she was gonna win she's the protagonist". I know thats not necessarily sexism from the writers, and more of the production team mandating male leads but you could have easily written Fumina to be the focal, main protagonist in Try and it would have done better in both writing and probably sales given how popular her design was.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

I’m not talking explicitly about combat ability

You certainly did at one point. Did you forget your own comment?:

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

which woman character in gundam could go toe to toe against the shows male protagonist and realistically beat them

__________________________________________________ ________

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Marida is a terrible example, basically the crystallization of gundams problems with writing women into a condensed form. She's a Ple- girls written into the story do die tragically to make you sad and power up the male cast.

Marida died fighting for something that she believed is worth risking her life. And it’s awful how you only gave Marida’s death the special attention when, in the very same show, you ignored that we have Cardeas Vist, Daguza Mackle & Gilboa Sant who also died for Banagher’s progress, like they don’t mean anything. Speaking of male sacrifices, there are many others:

Spoiler for Dead Dudes in Gundam franchise! Don't click if you don't wanna be spoiled:

Ryu Jose
Sleggar Law
Henken Bekkener
Katz Kobayashi
Hayato Kobayashi
Schwarz Bruder
Treize Kushrenada
Gavane Gooney
Nicol Amarfi
Tolle Koenig
Mu La Flaga (before his heroic death got retconned by Destiny)
Lichtendahl Tsery
Neil Dylandy
Woolf Enneacle
Biscuit Griffon
Naze Turbine
Norba Shino
And so many other dudes from the franchise

All of them are men who died honorable deaths during battle doing their duties, and their deaths also pushed the MC & other protags forward just like Marida's. Yet you’re only focusing on the female death toll? At this point, you’re the one who seem to have more gender-bias than the franchise itself.

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Rain is another bad example, she's defined by her relationship to the protagonist. In this case Rain is Domon's girlfriend first and foremost. She gets kidnapped and becomes a living naked CPU for the big bad robot in the end and has to be saved.

Supporting Domon during the Gundam Fight is Rain’s own independent decision after all the misfortune that befell him & his family. Since G Gundam’s MC is Domon and the entire show revolve around Gundam Fight and also fighting Devil Gundam & its cronies, female co-protag like Rain was naturally there in relation to Domon. Also she was independent and did a whole lot of things as a mechanic, medic & even support fighter unlike, say, Mary Jane from the Spiderman movies. Rain even saved Domon a bunch of times. The climax where she was turned into Devil Gundam’s CPU does not negate everything that she has done in the entire show.

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Cima might be fine on paper but she's as bypolar as everyone else in 0083 and 0083 has fucking Nina in it which is probably one of the worst written women characters in a gundam outside of Victory.

It was because of her traumatic past where she was duped into gassing a colony killing millions. It was explained in a special episode giving her character more depth. At the end of the day, she’s still one dang powerful woman.

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

All of the Turbine girls in IBO end up fridged to make Tekkadan angry. Thank god the writer actually has the rest of the women succeed independently from tekkadan because had they gone with the original ending it would have been almost Victory levels of bad.

See my response to your Marida complaint above. It’s not like IBO is short on male sacrifices that balanced the female ones.

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Victory had an entire squad of women die off one by one to make the protagonist sad and constantly talking about how women should stay out of the battlefield and stay home having babies. It had the infamous bikini suicide rush.

Pretty much same answer to your Marida complaint above. Also, you said Victory claim that women need to stay home and make babies? Well, the fact that Marbet (the female co-protag) was portrayed fighting the war when she was pregnant pretty much negate that argument. If anything, Victory show us that desperate times need desperate measures (including the bikini squad ).

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

The original series, Zeta and ZZ had problems too with how women were characterized, a lot of times the shows would go into these wild tangents about men and women that was almost alien in their stupidity but at least they didnt have bikini suicide squad.

Tangents will remain tangents. What matters is how the female co-protags are depicted in MSG & Zeta and most of them are empowering back when the term was not even popular yet.
ZZ shit the bed like I already told you. But at least they still have somewhat-independent girls like Elle & Roux.

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Despite May being a good pilot, I wouldn't say that Re:Rise has good women characterization. There are 4 prominent women in the show and two of them are entirely characterized by their relationship to Hiroto. (His RL girlfriend which I cant even remember her name, Eve whose death had a major impact on Hiroto pre-start of the series, Maya who is actually independent and competent in her own right and May which is the same and also good at fighting.

Hiroto is the MC. So of course the female co-protags are characters who are related to him. There’s nothing wrong with that. Heck, if you paid attention to the show, Hinata is seen being busy doing her archery club activities and meeting up with her senpai. Her life is not revolved around Hiroto. She didn’t just wait for him all the time like the lame female co-protags from AGE. As for Eve, she’s pretty much the “Uncle Ben” to Hiroto. It’s not really a sexist thing to have a character like that.

As for the rest of my mentioned shows that you didn’t respond, I take it that you already agreed with them.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

As for the rest of my mentioned shows that you didn’t respond, I take it that you already agreed with them.

Actually no, none of your suggestions have changed my opinion that Haman is probably one of the very few characters that could go against the shows protagonist and beat him as presented in the story. Not only just Zs protagonist, at her peak she could probably take on pre-CCA Amuro as well which is second only to CCA Amuro in terms of piloting ability.

And I really cant argue with someone that says Victory is not only not sexist, but actually empowering for women

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Actually no, none of your suggestions have changed my opinion that Haman is probably one of the very few characters that could go against the shows protagonist and beat him as presented in the story. Not only just Zs protagonist, at her peak she could probably take on pre-CCA Amuro as well which is second only to CCA Amuro in terms of piloting ability.

Why a female character have to be able to defeat the MC to be acknowledged by you? They can be real good characters without ever needing to surpass the MC by doing their own thing. Heck, I don't think most male side-characters can ever defeat the MC either. So, again, it's not a sexist thing to lose to the MC. You're the one who make it so.

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

And I really cant argue with someone that says Victory is not only not sexist, but actually empowering for women

I never said Victory is empowering women. I said Victory taught us that desperate times need desperate measures. Which part of those words that you don't understand?

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Speaking of Build and "MC Plot Armor" where are the women main protagonists in gundam? Why is it that we can't really ever say "Well of course she was gonna win she's the protagonist".

I already gave you an example of female MC in Gundam:

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

If you've seen Twilight AXIS, that show has a female MC (Arlette Almage) who fought a superior pilot & superior mecha and yet she can still survive thanks to the power of plot armor. It's really not that different from many of her male MC counterparts.

[Router25]

Ep. 24 teaser:
Ah yes, Lotus Challenge ver. 2.0.
I knew I've seen that scenario before.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

YouTube

https://youtu.be/Cxry-iKv1MI

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

It's hilarious how Masaki keep relating himself with a bear .

And yeah, my guess were right. Kazami never really update his channel after the event of episode 12 that shook him to his core (no pun intended). And then he was pretty preoccupied during S2. That's why he was surprised when he Saw his video got 10 million+ views.

Originally Posted by Router25

Ep. 24 teaser:
Ah yes, Lotus Challenge ver. 2.0.
I knew I've seen that scenario before.

Hiroto also brought up Lotus Challenge back in episode 2. It's a really nice full circle.

[Galaxian]

Loved what they've done with Kazami. He finally achieves his his goal of fame and popularity from S1 after he stopped caring about it.

I am very hyped for Riku and the others coming back, unlike most of the fandom I actually liked them quite a lot.

[Tenzen12]

I don't mind seeing original Build Divers either. I didn't like shonen power-ups of that show and Trans-Am being answer to everything, but just by being in opposition of new MC instead being MC themselves it can't go with same asspulls this time. So everything should be fine.

Plus Ayame is still cute.

[silenceblade]

I wonder how the champion and the real build divers will react to the truth of the battle two years ago?