(L) 5-Toubun no Hanayome

[OH&S]

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

Oh, so now having a character be developed more than others is supposed to be seen as a negative? Does that mean that it is now ok for the character that never received any development beforehand or that never did anything for themselves to get rewarded for doing nothing? Good to know.

It's bad writing, plain and simple. This entire arc is a mess of desperation from Negi to try and force him to choose Yostsuba and you can clearly see it with the dropped plot points, the rushed real father stuff that should have been and arc that revolved around all of them, and the way he just basically retconned anything that happened before the choice was made among other things.

You can't just generalize everyone tgat is conplaining as just being salty for the sake of being salty, the fans have good reasons to be mad (especially anyone that spent money on buying the damn thing). Those that are mad at Negi are mad because he literally said with these latest two chapters that he basically wasted all of their time for a poorly executed bait and switch while asking them to just believe it's the only choice that made sense because... reasons that were never properly explained, shown or hinted at.

If people want to complain then they can, besides, it's not like they are just making shit up just to discredit Yotsuba, if anything the people that are mad (myself included) have been doing a pretty good job of showing why the choice doesn't make sense given what we have seen so far with what Negi himself wrote.

You're reading way too much into what I've said, Chosen, so I'll keep the reply short.

1. I never said anything about Character Development. All the quints characters have developed. I used the word focus. I'll leave it to you to determine what the difference there is. I don't mean anything deep here.

2. Don't get too triggered by the word salt; to me, any fandom backlash when a ship sinks or sails is salt. But the word alone does not imply anything about whether it is warranted or justified. I even specifically highlighted that the salt here is not comparable to the HoAD and personally rationalized why there may be good reason for it being there. In short, even though your criticisms are with the writing and the author, its still salt; albeit fucking iodized.

[Tenzen12]

If even some Yotsuba shippers admit it doesn't make sense it's time admit it doesn't really make sense...

[WingedAccelerator]

Originally Posted by devil_slayer

Is it so wrong that Fuutaoru is just attracted to Yostuba more than Miku? I mean, Fuutarou did mention he prefers Genki girls early in the story so of course, everything Yostuba does count to x10 for him ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Honestly, I still think the main problem is the fact we never saw Fuutarou develop feelings toward any of them throughout the story. F*cking Fuuatrou stopped feeling like a human at some point due to how stoic and vague he is, MC-kun is just there so the sister can fight over him and create more drama, I forgot the last time something even funny happened in the story. It's just one exaggerated drama after another.

Then at the end, Fuutaoru was like: " I love you all but the one I want to bang is Yostsuba so that's is that"

If you take that joke chart seriously, Yotsuba only has the full of energy aspect. She is not a good cook from what we have seen. She made rice ball, which hardly considered cooking, and in the omake, it was shown that she can't even count the necessary ingredients for 5 portions, so she just goes with randomly throwing in a big amount for the recipe by her gut feeling. Now the loves his brother (sisters) aspect, she is shackled by guilt because after her ego trip, the sisters still stood up to her, so she became the slave of the other quints deliberately, just to make pity speeches about how it's natural that she prioritizes her sisters' happiness over her own. And if you want to add Miku to this as well, she lost because she started with the opposite in two criterias. Conquered cooking, but Negi dropped the gym tickets, so the full of energy aspect never came to be. The only present that never got used up or mentioned by Fuutarou...

I think the readers here generally agree with the rest. Even though Negi promised that the manga will concentrate on Fuutarou's feelings, it never really gave that impression, while Fuutarou became more and more pathetic, indecisive for the sake of keeping up the mystery.

[Lex79]

I think the readers here generally agree with the rest. Even though Negi promised that the manga will concentrate on Fuutarou's feelings, it never really gave that impression, while Fuutarou became more and more pathetic, indecisive for the sake of keeping up the mystery.

Yeah, that's by far the biggest problem of the series in my opinion. Too much importance on the mystery.

[Chosen_Hero]

Can we all agree that any romance/harem series that has a mystery as the gimmick just plain old sucks ass and that childhood promises are the worst?

[Lex79]

Personally I'm not against childhood promises in principle, it depends how they are played.

[Tenzen12]

I am against childhood promises by principle. People change and that is especially true with children that yet have to understand world. I mean how many children gave their "childhood promise" to marry own parent once they grow up? Should we take those seriously too?

Any promise child gives is automatically invalid as they will be completely different people once they reach puberty. To be fair Negi more or less avoided this pitfall with Yotsuba and just messed everything else instead.

[Eisdrache]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

I mean how many children gave their "childhood promise" to marry own parent once they grow up?

Very little I'd argue.

Furthermore you are bringing real life into this for no reason. If the author wants to write a story with such a promise in it then so be it, they're the ones who decide how their world works. Like already mentioned it depends on the execution and just because there are negative examples doesn't invalidate the premise.

[Marcus H.]

In real life, nobody would stop anyone from marrying one's childhood friend.

Moving on, that Japanese fan's analysis has one big flaw: the fan itself already contaminated the evidence by trying to piece together the events even though the story doesn't have enough material for such a connection to happen. In a nutshell, he is trying to "reveal" Fuutarou's subconscious which nobody even explicitly saw anywhere in the story.

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by Eisdrache

Very little I'd argue.

Furthermore you are bringing real life into this for no reason. If the author wants to write a story with such a promise in it then so be it, they're the ones who decide how their world works. Like already mentioned it depends on the execution and just because there are negative examples doesn't invalidate the premise.

It's noth how wolrd work but how people does and human nature is same in every story. Only way chidlhood promise can work is if both characters are mentaly adult when they make it. There is reason why minors aren't allowed vote, marry and aren't and can get murder people without getting crimminal record and that is because they not final version of themselves.

[DragoonKain3]

Sorry for late reply, big event this past weekend + couple days.

Originally Posted by WingedAccelerator

It's a discredit, because some of the girls had their valid reasons for not cooperating with Fuutarou from the get go, while Yotsuba just trusted the guy she loved for 5 years.

And the question still stands, even if Yotsuba knew Fuutarou from 5 years past, how is her being Fuutarou's first ally a knock on her character? Look, as someone who argued from Itsuki's POV, I get why none of the other sisters joined with Fuutarou. That said, that doesn't take away from Yotsuba still being Fuutarou's first ally, and her wanting to spend time with him overcame her shame of being unable to fulfill their problems as kids.

Again, people were claiming Yotsuba "didn't do anything". I claim she has been doing "something" from the very start, and this is part of her getting to spend time with Fuutarou.

She is not doing that unconsciously. Do you seriously think that the thought didn't cross her mind that they will be spending time together, when she forced him to be the other class rep or when they were organizing the festival? Or all of the other times she gives off the regret speeches? Those are concious decisions, where she spends time with him on her own.

Either conscious or unconscious, it actually doesn't matter to me. I went with unconscious route because we learn from her "My Sisters and I" arc is that she is going through extra lengths NOT to be special in comparison to her sisters during this time period, but her dragging Fuutarou around to enjoy High School life achieved the exact opposite.

But again, the point I was making was that Yotsuba is dragging Fuutarou around to spend time with her. Which again is the counterpoint to Yotsuba 'not doing anything'... consciously or unconsciously, it doesn't matter to me, but the latter is more in line what what is revealed (and therefore much more defensible).

Sick as in it's totally not in Fuutarou's character to pay someone back for help. It was a comedic response referring to his earlier condition, not genuine worry for his health. I'm still going to bring this up all the time, but if weren't for Raiha, she wouldn't have gotten that date. But Ichika and Miku honestly asking to spend time with him? Nope, studying is more important.

See, you are missing my point here, and we're getting derailed. The significance of the date is NOT tied to Raiha being the instigator of the date, or whether or not Yotsuba was saying it in jest (do note that in latest chapter with Fuutarou doing something weird, Yotsuba IMMEDIATELY defaults to him hurting himself, but that's besides the point).

No, the significance of the date chapter (c36 p5) is that Fuutarou initially wanted to just buy Yotsuba what she wants and be done with it. It would've been really easy for Yotsuba to just say, "buy me another ribbon" or something, but nope. Yotsuba dragged him along throughout the town, from daytime till nighttime with the swings in the park.

Which again, is another event in which Yotsuba 'forces' Fuutarou to spend time with her. I know I'm sounding like a broken record, but for the umpteenth time, my point was that Yotsuba "did something" in terms of romantic advances, of which other people discredit Negi in that he is writing a winning heroine that didn't do "anything" or doesn't have "development" - which is very very much untrue.

The shed scene with Ichika is right there as an explanation. He wanted to explain the situation to Miku and Itsuki, but only after some rest. She didn't let her, but of course she couldn't get the "the path to hell is paved with good intentions" character development, so the notes and Fuutarou validated her selfishness masqueraded selflessnes over and over in the course of the story.

Oh don't give me that. Fuutarou INSTANTLY shot down Rena in Sister's War because he didn't want any quint shenanigans ruining his upcoming trip. If Fuutarou really REALLY doesn't want to do something, he will totally reject it. But nope, even when he wasn't feeling under the weather, he still went along with Yotsuba. Why? His notes without any doubt proves that he was looking forward to the skiing.

Raiha c23 p7 "When you get back, tell me all about the fun things you did on your trip."

Notes c31 p11 "Stories to bring home to Raiha... PENDING Skiing on day 3 (Yotsuba is going to teach me it seems)"

Not sure why you're trying to paint Yotsuba black with her being selfish underneath the selfless facade. In all honesty, it doesn't even matter if Yotsuba is as big or bigger snek than Ichika, because at the end of the day Fuutarou enjoyed the trip despite being dragged around by Yotsuba. And being dragged out of his shell to enjoy high school life is what made Yotsuba 'special' to Fuutarou - time and time again it's shown despite his initial reluctance, Fuutarou really does enjoy 'living the high schol life'.

I'm talking about this list or compilanation of events from the manga under the spoiler tag. Take your time going through it, and you will know why I'm feeling I got robbed.

I've said it before, EVERY quint has moments that can be construed as romantic development. This is true for Ichika (eldest like Fuu/only quint Fuutarou spent tons of money on), Nino (parallels), Miku (as you listed), Yotsuba (as I listed), and Itsuki (as I argued before c114). It's the very reason why /a/ is not giving up on a bait and switch, because they believe their "romantic development" for their respective quint is so strong that it couldn't be just be all for naught.

But far as we know and as far as what Negi claims in his interview, there is only ONE bride. This means four-fifths of all "romantic development clues" are there either to obfuscate who the bride is (red herring), or to make those who support that quint even more emotionally invested in that quint (bait). This is the reason why I said to keep an open mind - to not count out any quint in the series till near the end, because in doing so you are blinding yourself from seeing the clues that points to the potential winner. And if you blind yourself, THAT is where you would feel robbed.

I mean sure, Miku as you listed did a lot of things to help Fuutarou. In fact, Negi could have easily chose those as the reasons why she is the quint Fuutarou fell in love with - I can't deny that AT ALL! But what makes Miku's romantic development more likey to be "not bait/red herring" than Nino's? Or Ichika's? Or Itsuki's? Or Yotsuba's?

Simply put? We can't know for sure in most harem manga. In most harem manga, the one with most 'development' wins, aka. Main Girl wins. In some other manga, they go with the most popular. Other still go for the ultimate subversion. Other still will just simply go with the first girl shown, while others still avoid the question altogether by having no one win, or all of them win.

Thing is though, Negi obviously has watch/read mystery, and it's almost guaranteed he studied on how to write it. And by making the first page of c1/c32 being word-for-word almost identical to each other, that was essentially Negi promising the reader that the bride is related to the KG storyline in some way. I've repeated many times why c1/c32 is on a tier higher than other clues but if someone wants a refresher:

Spoiler:

c1/c32 is considered 'spoiler tier' foreshadowing because it is 'bait proof'. By that I mean, with each page taken separately at face value, all we are given is that the person in c1 is the bride, while in c32 is KG. Neither is tied to a specific event that would give an emotional build-up to any quint, and as such it could not have been written as 'bait'.

Not only that, but because both pages are set in the future with Fuutarou looking back, we know Fuutarou has the benefit of hindsight. Meaning if Negi meant this to lead us to the wrong conclusion, it can't be because Fuutarou was mistaken that the girl in c1 is the 'girl in the wedding dress', or that he was mistaken that the girl in c32 is KG. The only way this could be a red herring is if 'the girl in the wedding dress' is NOT the true bride. As such, even if it turns out to be a red herring, KG is still somehow in a wedding dress, solidifying her role at least as a finalist and making this clue at least 'red herring resistant'.

Of course, the logical deduction that c1 girl = c32 girl may itself be wrong, or Negi didn't intend it to be done as such. But considering Fuutarou used almost identical wording, and this was done in first page of their respective volumes, it's highly very unlikely it isn't done intentionally as foreshadowing to the true identity of the bride.

As such, the odds of a particular quint being the bride is proportional to how relevant they are to the KG storyline. Right up till c112, that meant that Yotsuba actually had the highest chance, while Miku had the lowest. If one feels robbed because their quint lost, when that quint is not part of the major unresolved plot thread that defined Fuutarou's very character, then that just means they were running on the wrong premises.

That is to say, if we are under the premise that Negi is specifically writing a story where there is no doubt who eventual winning heroine is, and that heroine is written in such a way that she is the one the readers are most emotionally invested in... then yeah, I can see how people who support Miku or even Nino would feel 'robbed', as they had slightly more screentime than the other quints. But this isn't a regular romance story written with that purpose!

This is because Negi specifically wants 'waifu wars', which can only happen when the identity of the bride is up in the air AND the emotional investment is split among them to cater to a wider demographic... then obviously the author is going to make every quint seem to have roughly equal chances at winning. Failing to see this when this is the premise of practically every harem ever means either one is inexperienced with the genre, or one is blinding themselves because of their emotional investment in a quint.

If one is so not laser focused on why one quint 'deserves' to win more than another, and is instead looking at the bigger picture on how ANY quint can win, then they'd see everything. That is they'd be able to see that if Negi wanted Ichika to win, he would have made Fuutarou fall in love with her because she understands what it likes being the eldest. If Negi wanted to Nino, he may had Fuutarou fall in love with her aggressive romantic advances. Or if Negi wanted Itsuki to win, Negi may have had Fuutarou fall in love with her because she always gives him the right advice everytime he needs it. Or if Negi wanted to Miku to win, you listed the many reasons on what Fuutarou could have fell in love with.

In essence, Negi is NOT justifying Fuutarou falling in love with Yotsuba because she had "more" or "better" development than the other quints, as every quint is more or less equal in that regard. No, he made Yotsuba the winner because he already decided it as early as c32, and so Negi made it specifically her 'romantic development' that Fuutarou fell in love with. That is, she is uniquely the quint that drags Fuutarou around to enjoy his high school life, be it through trips, through events, through school duties, or even just enjoying a day off - that is what Negi made Fuutarou fall in love with.

So yeah, if one still feels robbed despite being able to see each quints' path to victory, that's on you and not the author. Even now I still have misgivings that Yotsuba truly has this in the bag, BECAUSE I can see how Itsuki or even Ichika can be put in a bait/switch before the end of the volume. Miku/Nino unfortunately has near to next relation with KG, so them overturning the c1/c32 equivalence with less than a volume left is going to be very difficult. But hey, never say never, right?

[Eisdrache]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

It's noth how wolrd work but how people does and human nature is same in every story. Only way chidlhood promise can work is if both characters are mentaly adult when they make it. There is reason why minors aren't allowed vote, marry and aren't and can get murder people without getting crimminal record and that is because they not final version of themselves.

Once again your examples bear no relevance to the context of childhood promises. A thing such as a "final version" does not exist to begin with. "Human nature" is literally different for every person and thus thinking that a character cannot hold a promise made in their childhood is a conclusion with no basis to stand on. Furthermore it's not the child who fulfills the promise but the person at a much later point in time. If the author decides that there are people in the story with this character trait then that's simply the way it is.

[Tenzen12]

Explain me how they have no bearing? Children are literally inable make informed long term decisions. That's objective fact aknowled both by psychological researches and laws. Of course it's also common sense.

[Lex79]

DragoonKain3, I thunk you can relax more, at this point Negi really has no room to pull another plot twist regarding the bride unless he makes Fuutarou breaking up with Yotsuba off screen during the time skip that lead to the wedding, and I don't think he's crazy enough to go for that.

[WingedAccelerator]

Dragoon, I remember your prefiguration essay a while back, but I still would argue about KG's importance. How Negi treated the KG mystery was also awful. A clue surfaces up, then it gets put on hold for 20+ chapters. This got repeated until Fuutarou said that the present is more important to Rena = KG. Now, you are still saying that if there is bait, only those, who are involved with KG one way or another can win. Even though Miku is absolutely represents the present, the only quint, who Negi decided not to shoehorn in with any KG shenanigans. And you continue to ignore Nino, even though she saw half of the picture, she heard the Rena story, and we know from the flashback that Yotsuba talked about Fuutarou to her, and she invented "Fuu-kun" there and both of them saw Ichika cucking Yotsuba. Negi conveniently ignored all of this or didn't allow her to think, put two and two together, maybe amnesia. From the character that valued the times when they were identical the most.

But you can think of it this way: Until the editor's interview, the premise was about the poor, antisocial guy teaching quintuplets for a better living, and one of them will be his future bride. After the editor's interview, actually this a story about how the protagonist's first love is a quintuplet, so he can't recognize her in the present, when they meet again. KG is the core story, trust me, while Negi-sensei does minimal baby steps in the manga with it. Also, I asked Negi-sensei to change his Yotsuba avatar on Twitter before Chapter 49 to Itsuki, to not make it suspicious, when Yotsuba undoubtedly wins.

[Eisdrache]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Explain me how they have no bearing? Children are literally inable make informed long term decisions. That's objective fact aknowled both by psychological researches and laws. Of course it's also common sense.

Because it's irrelevant. As I said it's not the child who fulfills the promise, it's the adolescent/adult who is perfectly able to do so. And even if that weren't the case, if the author writes a character who can do the same as a child then that's the context you have to go with. You're making the equation that if something is not possible in real life -> it cannot be possible in manga. That's simply not how it works. Every story is its own world independent from all other stories. As long as it makes sense within that setting it is perfectly valid.

[Tenzen12]

You don't make any sense. We are not talking about magic or superpower, we are talking about human nature and those cannot be changed by author whim. You would have to go for psychological engeneering or genetic manipulation. If it's not possible in real world it's indeed not possible in manga either. That's simply how it works.

And that's also why reasonable young adult should have enough sense not give any importance to something like childhood promises. It means they are immature and not ready for real relationship as they are in love with past image of someone they made promise with instead their actual selves.

And I am out, you can have last word if you want.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

You don't make any sense. We are not talking about magic or superpower, we are talking about human nature and those cannot be changed by author whim. You would have to go for psychological engineering or genetic manipulation. If it's not possible in real world it's indeed not possible in manga either. That's simply how it works.

Yo, I don't have a dog in this fight, but you know that's BS.

If the author wants his characters to be unable to fall in love with anyone but their destined partner, that'll be how it works. He wants someone to be pure evil or pure good, then they are. He wants people to remain who they are as children into adulthood, that's what they'll be.

There is no restriction on what an author can and cannot make his characters do or be.

[RDNexus]

People trying to bring real life logic into a fictional story only spells doom.
A story is fictional precisely because an author has the freedom to portray characters the way he/she wants, regardless of real life logic.

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by XFire

Yo, I don't have a dog in this fight, but you know that's BS.

If the author wants his characters to be unable to fall in love with anyone but their destined partner, that'll be how it works. He wants someone to be pure evil or pure good, then they are. He wants people to remain who they are as children into adulthood, that's what they'll be.

There is no restriction on what an author can and cannot make his characters do or be.

Nah. I mean yes if author want that, they have power to do so. Doesn't mean that if they do, it works.