Attack on Titan - Episode 24 Discussion / Poll

[JamJackEvo]

But one would have to question how exactly they were able to smuggle and then set up those harpoon cannons on the rooftops under the noses of the MP—

Oh wait. I think I just answered my own question. MP reputation, lowered further.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by ZeMaverick

Eren needs to stop being a bitch and get in the damn titan. I mean, trying to do your duty by biting your hand over and over even if it goes against moral understanding of the world?
Just a whiner.
Getting knocked unconscious and when you finally wake up getting impaled and knocked out again?
Useless.
The moment you wake up you make your decision to change your moral views to save humanity.
'Bout time.

Haha, nice would have given you some rep-points but the feature that made this site worth a d^mn has been shuffled away for some nonsensical reason, but nice^^...

Originally Posted by chi4ko

Just no. There isn't much to be discussed about, those 2 are totally different types personality trait-wise. The MC hesitating/overcoming his limitations before getting into action and saving the day is a common storytelling element used throughout fiction. Honestly, apart from both of them being plagued with mental/emotional issues, there isn't enough common ground between Eren and Shinji for such a comparison to be made.

I don't know I'm not writing a dissertation here, just saying I had that same level of borderline wanting to choke him out in frustration...Certainly a good level of "Get in the damn titan!!" fist-wrangling in this ep as others have suggested...

As for this episode, I'm not someone who feels as if the anime has to follow the manga exclusively as i understand that they are too different medium and--especially when you have the mangaka involved--I see no problem with a production team adding or subtracting things that invoke different themes or perspectives in an animated sense, however in the case of Annie, it was soooooo obvious that she was the female titan that i almost thought it might be a red herring of some sort setup to fool me...Just curious to whether or not the manga played the "discovery" of her being the titan as straight-forward as the anime...

[jeroz]

People conveniently forgetting how Eren was buried and impaled right after the divergent point. It's not like he was idling around hesitating like what you guys put him out to be. You tend not to think straight when you are severely wounded like he was in that situation. Having fast regen doesnot mean you don't get hurt.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by jeroz

People conveniently forgetting how Eren was buried and impaled right after the divergent point. It's not like he was idling around hesitating like what you guys put him out to be. You tend not to think straight when you are severely wounded like he was in that situation. Having fast regen doesnot mean you don't get hurt.

That's one part, but you have to consider that Eren had to "remember" what happened to Levi's squad, and even his own mother death before getting back on business.
What's even worse was Eren's inner thought "it isn't the time to think if it is right or wrong to do that", implying he did that which is borderline out of character. It isn't like Eren was stuck in a "is it right to kick Annie's ass now?" but rather how he has hard time to accept Annie as his enemy, which is an unsconcious lock at best.
There is absolutely no moral ambiguity in the situation, yet the anime portrayed Eren in a state of confusion for no real reason. His shock and unwillingness to accept Annie as an enemy was already shown prior Annie's transformation and Erwin & Armin's plan flashback. It isn't like he needed Armin and Jean to finally move on.

Eren's extensive injury did drag a bit the scene, but the execution of Eren's resolve and adding Jean in the equation really worsened Eren's mindset in the anime.

[Subarunyon]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

That's one part, but you have to consider that Eren had to "remember" what happened to Levi's squad, and even his own mother death before getting back on business.
What's even worse was Eren's inner thought "it isn't the time to think if it is right or wrong to do that", implying he did that which is borderline out of character. It isn't like Eren was stuck in a "is it right to kick Annie's ass now?" but rather how he has hard time to accept Annie as his enemy, which is an unsconcious lock at best.
There is absolutely no moral ambiguity in the situation, yet the anime portrayed Eren in a state of confusion for no real reason. His shock and unwillingness to accept Annie as an enemy was already shown prior Annie's transformation and Erwin & Armin's plan flashback. It isn't like he needed Armin and Jean to finally move on.

Eren's extensive injury did drag a bit the scene, but the execution of Eren's resolve and adding Jean in the equation really worsened Eren's mindset in the anime.

No one wants to be seen as a bad person by anyone. Eren is in a state of confusion because he respects Annie a lot and dont want to betray her. The conflict is his loyalty to Annie vs "the right thing to do" as a human who can titanshift. This conflict has nothing to do with moral ambiguity, it simply shows that he respects Annie that much, and that it`s not easy to shift his mindset that from Annie = friend and mentor to Annie = Megata, who have hurt and killed many others that he cared about.

Must admit that I have a soft spot for character who undergo the same experiences I did. I was in a very similar situation as Eren at one point. I saw someone I know and respect tried to hurt another person I really cared about. I chose not to pick a side and it took me a month to actually realized what was happening and what stance I should have taken. By that time the damage was already done and my relationship with the person that was hurt wasn`t exactly the same. Compared to me Eren actually came the correct conclusion unrealistically quick, but I much prefer the anime version to the manga.

I really hope that next ep we get some Annie x Eren flashback interaction. I am a manga reader and its hard to un-read the Eren x Annie scenes that I read in the manga prior to watching this ep.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Subarunyon

No one wants to be seen as a bad person by anyone. Eren is in a state of confusion because he respects Annie a lot and dont want to betray her. The conflict is his loyalty to Annie vs "the right thing to do" as a human who can titanshift. This conflict has nothing to do with moral ambiguity, it simply shows that he respects Annie that very much, and that it`s not easy to shift his mindset that from Annie = friend and mentor to Annie = Megata, who have hurt and killed many others that he cared about.

Must admit that I have a soft spot for character who undergo the same experiences I did. I was in a very similar situation as Eren at one point. I saw someone I know and respect tried to hurt another person I really cared about. I chose not to pick a side and it took me a month to actually realized what was happening and what stance I should have taken. By that time the damage was already done and my relationship with the person that was hurt wasn`t exactly the same. Compared to me Eren actually came to a conclusion unrealistically quick, but I much prefer the anime version to the manga.

Is respect what you actually mean here? Respect is something that can vanish into nothingness very quickly. It won't take much for the respected mayor to become suddenly the center of everyone's despise if it was revealed that he repeatedly raped his underage daughter, no matter how a skilled politician he was.

Respect is something you earn and that you must constantly work for, by the time Annie was revealed to be a spy a betrayer and a mass murderer Eren (his own mother included among the victims) owed her absolutely no respect anymore.

If there's something that kept him from attacking her immediately and comprehensibly so it's his lingering affection for her since he always saw her if not as a friend as a sister in arms at the very least.


But the key problem here is that no matter how much he felt some sort of attachment toward Annie, it was nothing compared to what he felt for Armin and Mikasa who are his family, whether he admits it or no.
The whole "one of us will die but it's better than all of us dying" that Armin "planned" was a ruse, Mikasa and Armin there had some kind of understanding and played it along. They never really planned to sacrifice the other or sacrifice themselves, the way it was shown in the anime it seems as if they were totally fine with that, but it's ridiculous.
In other words while they made Eren look particularly hesitant to kill Annie they made Armin and Mikasa look completely insensitive toward themselves.

The truth of the manga is that they both understood that Eren needed a strong motivation and then they gambled everything on the trust they had on him. They both thought: "if it threatens us Eren will definitely act immediately".

This went completely down the gutter.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

But the key problem here is that no matter how much he felt some sort of attachment toward Annie, it was nothing compared to what he felt for Armin and Mikasa who are his family, whether he admits it or no.
The whole "one of us will die but it's better than all of us dying" that Armin "planned" was a ruse, Mikasa and Armin there had some kind of understanding and played it along. They never really planned to sacrifice the other or sacrifice themselves, the way it was shown in the anime it seems as if they were totally fine with that, but it's ridiculous.

Not that ridiculous. Either of them is completely ready to throw their lives away for Eren's sake. They'd do it in a heartbeat. So they may have hoped, even trusted that Eren would wake up and smell the blood, but if it had come to it, they'd have died for him.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Not that ridiculous. Either of them is completely ready to throw their lives away for Eren's sake. They'd do it in a heartbeat. So they may have hoped, even trusted that Eren would wake up and smell the blood, but if it had come to it, they'd have died for him.

But they wouldn't have let the other die, not so easily.
For Armin and Mikasa it was a 50% chance they'd die or that the other would die.
It seems that they only care about Eren and absolutely nothing about each other, but that's wrong they are the most important persons to each other directly after Eren.

[Anh_Minh]

Yeah, after. But unlike Eren, they're able to make hard decisions fast.

[kitten320]

Well Eren never seemed to be the wisest of the three.

[Subarunyon]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Is respect what you actually mean here? Respect is something that can vanish into nothingness very quickly. It won't take much for the respected mayor to become suddenly the center of everyone's despise if it was revealed that he repeatedly raped his underage daughter, no matter how a skilled politician he was.

Respect to a friend / family is different from respect to a public figure. In the back of our heads, we want to see public figures fall, like watching a car crash. Not the case with friends and family.

Respect is something you earn and that you must constantly work for, by the time Annie was revealed to be a spy a betrayer and a mass murderer Eren (his own mother included among the victims) owed her absolutely no respect anymore.

That's the point of the whole hesitation thing though, he doesn't want to believe that Annie betrayed them, as Annie has built enough respect and rapport with Eren in the past. He knows that Annie's betrayal true but subconsciously he doesn't want to. I know this can happen as I have firsthand experience with it.

If there's something that kept him from attacking her immediately and comprehensibly so it's his lingering affection for her since he always saw her if not as a friend as a sister in arms at the very least.

I agree, and I think his attachment to Annie is shown better in the manga, but how you interpret it is kind of left to the reader.

In other words while they made Eren look particularly hesitant to kill Annie they made Armin and Mikasa look completely insensitive toward themselves.

Your reasoning on the plan made sense. I never thought of it that far though. I just saw it as Armin ensuring that they dont all die. Maybe what Armin is thinking when he came up with the plan will be revealed later.

But they wouldn't have let the other die, not so easily.
For Armin and Mikasa it was a 50% chance they'd die or that the other would die.
It seems that they only care about Eren and absolutely nothing about each other, but that's wrong they are the most important persons to each other directly after Eren.

Again I think it was more about "we all die, or some of us survives". In that situation Mikasa and Armin can quickly make the correct decision. Eren actually made the same decision as well (biting his hands), but his mindset still couldn't get past Annie's betrayal.

[kitsunisan]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Is respect what you actually mean here? Respect is something that can vanish into nothingness very quickly. It won't take much for the respected mayor to become suddenly the center of everyone's despise if it was revealed that he repeatedly raped his underage daughter, no matter how a skilled politician he was.

Respect is something you earn and that you must constantly work for, by the time Annie was revealed to be a spy a betrayer and a mass murderer Eren (his own mother included among the victims) owed her absolutely no respect anymore.

If there's something that kept him from attacking her immediately and comprehensibly so it's his lingering affection for her since he always saw her if not as a friend as a sister in arms at the very least.


But the key problem here is that no matter how much he felt some sort of attachment toward Annie, it was nothing compared to what he felt for Armin and Mikasa who are his family, whether he admits it or no.
The whole "one of us will die but it's better than all of us dying" that Armin "planned" was a ruse, Mikasa and Armin there had some kind of understanding and played it along. They never really planned to sacrifice the other or sacrifice themselves, the way it was shown in the anime it seems as if they were totally fine with that, but it's ridiculous.
In other words while they made Eren look particularly hesitant to kill Annie they made Armin and Mikasa look completely insensitive toward themselves.

The truth of the manga is that they both understood that Eren needed a strong motivation and then they gambled everything on the trust they had on him. They both thought: "if it threatens us Eren will definitely act immediately".

This went completely down the gutter.

Exactly, Armin was bluffing. In the manga, Eren never let them leave the tunnel, which is exactly what Armin knew would happen. Eren's need to protect him and Mikasa overrode any inner conflict he had. I understand that Eren may have considered Annie a friend, but there's no way he'd put anyone over Mikasa or Armin, especially when he knew what Annie had done.

[Anh_Minh]

Armin didn't really know. Eren's power is way too unreliable for him to know anything.

[Subarunyon]

Armin making that gamble is possible, it would be in line with what he said just the moment before about making a large gamble to win. However as the manga and anime both shown different results, I dont think that this is the case, assuming that Isayama OKed the changes.

Just because he puts Armin and Mikasa above Annie, doesnt mean that he can change his mindset quickly about Annie. These are two separate (but related) things.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Subarunyon

Just because he puts Armin and Mikasa above Annie, doesnt mean that he can change his mindset quickly about Annie. These are two separate (but related) things.

Yeah But Armin and Mikasa put Eren in a situation where he had to choose quickly. If your best friend points a gun on your wife you try to stop him first and ask questions later, there's no time to think or to hesitate when your loved ones are about to be killed.

[Tiranas]

I was mostly satisfied with the filler material.

It was obvious that Eren's inability to transform was not due to lack of trying or even due to hesitation but more of a mental block which is why I don't understand the people complaining that he should just "man up" or sth. to that extent.

The one thing that did bother me though was Annie chasing after Armin for no apparent reason while Eren was just a few meters away. What Armin said to her didn't seem enough to make her lose sight of her objective either. If someone could make sense of that part I'd be completely happy with the episode.

[Subarunyon]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Yeah But Armin and Mikasa put Eren in a situation where he had to choose quickly. If your best friend points a gun on your wife you try to stop him first and ask questions later, there's no time to think or to hesitate when your loved ones are about to be killed.

Perhaps Eren knows that the three of them are main characters and therefore won't die

Just because I can stop my friend from shooting my wife, doesnt mean that deep in my heart I acknowledge my friend's betrayal the moment I did so. Eren actually already did the equivalent of this by biting his hands really hard in preparation to fight Annie. Shinji on the other hand would not even bite. The fundamental difference is: A character like Shinji needs to "man up", a character like Eren doesn't. He's just being human. (Sorry for going back to Eva again, but I think the comparison is useful) -

We're dealing with something that doesn't relate to action but rather, change of heart.

It's like being in a hypothetical situation where you ask Mikasa to cut Eren's head off, because doing so would destroy all titans and save humanity. Mikasa would know that it's the right thing to do, but her heart would think it's all sorts of wrong, and would need some time to think it through.

[normp571]

Originally Posted by Tiranas

I was mostly satisfied with the filler material.

It was obvious that Eren's inability to transform was not due to lack of trying or even due to hesitation but more of a mental block which is why I don't understand the people complaining that he should just "man up" or sth. to that extent.

The one thing that did bother me though was Annie chasing after Armin for no apparent reason while Eren was just a few meters away. What Armin said to her didn't seem enough to make her lose sight of her objective either. If someone could make sense of that part I'd be completely happy with the episode.

I have a few theories on that right there. The first is maybe she though Eren was dead and their was no use trying to get him. The second is that she was blinded by rage at Armin for betraying her. Or, she could have thought that retrieving Eren was useless now. There was no way she was going to be able o make it over the walls with Eren, especially with his titan-shifting ability. There would be no where for her to run and no where within the walls she would be safe. So, she tried to make a final gambit and escape over the walls on her own. We could already see that she was extremely desperate by the fact that she was willing to risk Eren's death to get him.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Subarunyon

Just because I can stop my friend from shooting my wife, doesnt mean that deep in my heart I acknowledge my friend's betrayal the moment I did so.

That's the thing. At the time Armin and Mikasa were about to die by Annie's hand for Eren it wasn't anymore a matter of whether "Annie betrayed him", or "Annie is evil" or if it's all right to attack her or not, it became just a matter of "Annie is about to hurt my friends and I must stop her".
All moral issues at that point didn't matter anymore or at least they shouldn't have in my opinion in spite of the route the anime decided to take.

Originally Posted by Subarunyon

Shinji on the other hand would not even bite, fundamental difference. (Sorry for going back to Eva again, but I think the comparison is useful) - A character like Shinji needs to "man up", a character like Eren doesn't. He's just being human.

I think the main difference that apparently some people are forgetting is that Shinji repeatedly asks himself "why should I fight?" "why am I piloting the Eva?"
Eren never asks the why, that's totally not the problem, his determination to fight the titans is unwavering, the problem is that at that moment he didn't know if he should consider Annie a titan or not and in his heart he didn't want to.
Also Eren never escaped nor he ever took the decision to not fight and resign from the military. That's the total opposite of his character.

Originally Posted by Subarunyon

It's like being in a hypothetical situation where you ask Mikasa to sacrifice Eren, when sacrificing Eren would destroy all titans and safe humanity. Mikasa would know that it's the right thing to do, but her heart would think it's all sorts of wrong.

I'm not sure if Mikasa would choose the world if the choice was between the world and Eren. Armin probably would.

This is quite an interesting topic, we have seen people sacrificing themselves and sacrifice other constantly for the sake of "humanity" in this show but there are perspectives that completely question all of this.

For example Shannon Cassul form scrapped princess near the end asks if a world that demands the sacrifice of his innocent sister in order to exist is really worth of being protected.
This is also a theme that is brought to light in the American movie: The Cabin in the Woods

[lateraldeath]

Originally Posted by Subarunyon

Must admit that I have a soft spot for character who undergo the same experiences I did. I was in a very similar situation as Eren at one point. I saw someone I know and respect tried to hurt another person I really cared about. I chose not to pick a side and it took me a month to actually realized what was happening and what stance I should have taken. By that time the damage was already done and my relationship with the person that was hurt wasn`t exactly the same. Compared to me Eren actually came the correct conclusion unrealistically quick, but I much prefer the anime version to the manga.

Well Eren's situation is much more drastic than yours. If we are to make an apple to apple parallel. That someone you know already killed a bunch of your friends including the one he hurt, literately, and that was 3 days ago. And as much as you'd like to not believe it the past 3 days, that person you know is now in front of your house, getting ready to kill your sister and best friend who happen to be with you unless you go out there and fight him, even though you might lose. Can you still say you want to hesitate and be neutral? or are you able to see exactly what you need to do in front of you, and just do it.

For most people the priority is painfully clear. Sort out feelings later, but most important thing is not to lose a single person more. Go out and fight. That's more realistic and the Manga did that, anime had to drag it out.