The Official Football Thread

[RapidPotential]

Wilshere has never been a winger. He doesn't have the pace to burn defenders on the outside, and the bursts he's so famed for are far more effective in the middle because the defenders are on the backfoot as he darts into the space between their midfield and defence.

On the other hand, Rosicky is far more effective wide than Wilshere because he actually has pace, despite the fact that he's turning 33 soon. Wilshere will find it hard in the middle because of the quality and form we have there at the moment. We really need Podolski, Walcott, Cazorla back because they really add to the danger of our game.

We're missing runners in behind the defence, something that only when Walcott is missing, then we realise just how important he is to the team, despite years of criticising his "lack of footballing brain". His movement and pace is what opens up space for the midfielders. Cazorla and Ozil is really a mouth-watering pairing on paper, but I've no doubts since they're world-class. I cannot wait for the international break to end quickly.

[germanturkey]

yep. typical 'pool and united are struggling.

[Azuma Denton]

Yesterday Arsenal's goal was classy, particularly the first goal and the third goal.
It's been so long since I feel this excited about the prospect of Arsenal winning the title. Arsenal already had the creativity in the midfield, now if only January they can secure one more good striker.

[KiraYamatoFan]

Originally Posted by germanturkey

yep. typical 'pool and united are struggling.

What I have to say about Gollum-faced prick, who is our manager, is already said in my signature. When you think that one of my friends, who saw the troubled times in the 1970s and 1980s (and is usually a patient man), even showed the middle finger to the screen when Moyes was shown, it shows how bad things are getting.

Also SAF was in the stands. He had the same death glare look he had on the day he threw a boot above David Beckham's eye. The sooner that Scouse Scottish imbecile leaves and packs his negative tactics with him, the better things will be.

[RapidPotential]

I never expected to see 4 sexy goals in a single game from Arsenal. When was the last time we scored this many of the same high-quality plays? The first was just brilliant.

[germanturkey]

to be fair, moyes was great at everton. but not everyone is cut to make it as a CL manager, not that united will be there next season.. i'll give it a year or two (not next season) before Moyes leaves and Klopp leave Dortmond. I legitimately feel bad for Dortmond. they do a great job at replacing their players, but losing 2 every year is a bad deal.

[RapidPotential]

It's not really a fair judgment considering SAF left having won the title last season quite comprehensively and Moyes is pretty much being expected to defend the title in his first season. Granted, he has managed Everton and this is something new to him. Managing a team into top ten consistently isn't easy especially for a club like Everton.

Everyone assumes it's normal for United to be doing well; they aren't wrong, but they neglect to consider that it's a transitionary period for the team, and if they cannot adequately replace Sir Alex's nous, they'll end up like Arsenal, struggling to win trophies for years.

[Elo the Blue]

Originally Posted by RapidPotential

I never expected to see 4 sexy goals in a single game from Arsenal. When was the last time we scored this many of the same high-quality plays? The first was just brilliant.

Agreed. All four goals were sublime. I actually liked Ozil's header the most. He made a ridiculous run to get into position and Giroud's cross was perfect.

[risingstar3110]

Considering that Everton is playing even better without Moyes, of course there are doubts over his ability.

I means they stuck with him for 10 years and they were all talking about how he did wonder for Everton. So you will expect them to show that same drop in performances like United did. But apparently that was not the case

[KiraYamatoFan]

Originally Posted by RapidPotential

It's not really a fair judgment considering SAF left having won the title last season quite comprehensively and Moyes is pretty much being expected to defend the title in his first season. Granted, he has managed Everton and this is something new to him. Managing a team into top ten consistently isn't easy especially for a club like Everton.

Everyone assumes it's normal for United to be doing well; they aren't wrong, but they neglect to consider that it's a transitionary period for the team, and if they cannot adequately replace Sir Alex's nous, they'll end up like Arsenal, struggling to win trophies for years.

Guess what. Guardiola was given the task of taking over a manager who just won the treble, not to forget a total of 8 trophies in 6 seasons through different spells with Bayern and a eye-popping overall winning record through those spells. If THAT is not challenging in itself for a manager coming fresh in a new team, then I don't know what it is.

Since Saturday, I looked around in Man Utd fan forums and one of the threads raised a very important point: The most confusing thing about the hiring of David Moyes is that as a winning institution, as a club that always strives to win trophies and set the standard in English football, we've hired someone who has won NOTHING. When you look at other big clubs, they look hard at hiring managers who have won something at least. In the case of replacing Fergie, it was worth a hell lot to consider because of how huge the task is.

Looking at the facts: David Moyes spent around 15 years in management and is aged 50 now. Zero trophy, no league title, no cups. He may have saved Everton from relegation years ago and ends up regularly around 8th to 5th place. THAT BEING SAID, why have the likes of Chelsea, Manchester City and Tottenham never gone for David Moyes when they needed someone to take any of their teams to another level if Moyes is that damn good? The answer speaks for itself and it was reflected in the tactical decisions he made so far at United: HE'S A TACTICAL DINOSAUR! This might cut for a mid-table team, but not for a top club. Even then, there are managers from mid-table teams who are a hell lot more positive and attacking-minded than Moyes at the moment. Moyes looks like a guy who was on welfare and now sits on the money he got after winning the lottery.

The way he keeps playing guys who are out of their depth while he alienated the likes of Kagawa, Hernandez, the young Wilfried Zaha, Fabio... that's just disgusting. That's a sign of cowardly bias against flair players who would certainly save Moyes' ass more often than costing points.

The more it goes, the more I believe he was chosen because he's the best British manager available. Well, I have some news for everyone: now that Fergie is out of the game, British managers have proven at 99% to be outdated dinosaurs and it's no surprise that the best EPL managers are foreigners by a mile. If United were serious in looking for the best manager available, they should have gone for a foreigner, be it Klopp, Mourinho, Martinez, Laudrup, Rudi Garcia or even (also a favorite) Solskjaer.

For me, it's simple: if Moyes doesn't accomplish a top 4 finish, he will get axed just like Giovani Trappatoni was sacked by Bayern after a 6th place finish in 1994-95 (the last time they ended up outside of the top 4 in the Bundesliga). My allegiance is to the team, not the manager.

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

Considering that Everton is playing even better without Moyes, of course there are doubts over his ability.

They bought Martinez's system immediately. As I wrote, watch highlights of the game against Southampton and you will see how Moyes reeks negativity.

[Bri]

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

Guess what. Guardiola was given the task of taking over a manager who just won the treble, not to forget a total of 8 trophies in 6 seasons through different spells with Bayern and a eye-popping overall winning record through those spells. If THAT is not challenging in itself for a manager coming fresh in a new team, then I don't know what it is.

Since Saturday, I looked around in Man Utd fan forums and one of the threads raised a very important point: The most confusing thing about the hiring of David Moyes is that as a winning institution, as a club that always strives to win trophies and set the standard in English football, we've hired someone who has won NOTHING. When you look at other big clubs, they look hard at hiring managers who have won something at least. In the case of replacing Fergie, it was worth a hell lot to consider because of how huge the task is.

Klopp and Guardiola hadn't won anything before they took on their coaching positions at Dortmund and Barcelona. If anything their appointments reflect a desire of these clubs to retain or built on their own club culture.

Moyes fits the profile of what United was looking for. Someone who understands the club culture and could provide continuity. Ferguson was not a tactical genius either but he at least knew his own weakness and delegated that task to his coaches. Something Moyes can also do in time. A bigger issue is that the squad he inherited isn't suited for the modern passing game.

While United as a football club could actually benefit from the cleansing effect of a few meager years, getting rid of dead weight and glory hunting supporters, it's probably bad news for the brand and the financial future of the organization.

In my opinion United's biggest problem is the Glazer ownership who have taken money out of the club rather than invest. The club has the highest revenue in the prems and the 3rd highest in world football yet isn't able to fund a squad that is comparable to that of Barcelona, Madrid or Bayern. Investment has been neglected for several years now and this is catching up with the team. Just as the Glazer's other franchise Tampa Bay has suffered from years of neglect. Given that the Glazers have switched to emergency spending on Tampa before this season, I suspect it will be a while before United can be propped up.

[KiraYamatoFan]

Originally Posted by Bri

Klopp and Guardiola hadn't won anything before they took on their coaching positions at Dortmund and Barcelona. If anything their appointments reflect a desire of these clubs to retain or built on their own club culture.

Moyes fits the profile of what United was looking for. Someone who understands the club culture and could provide continuity. Ferguson was not a tactical genius either but he at least knew his own weakness and delegated that task to his coaches. Something Moyes can also do in time. A bigger issue is that the squad he inherited isn't suited for the modern passing game.

While United as a football club could actually benefit from the cleansing effect of a few meager years, getting rid of dead weight and glory hunting supporters, it's probably bad news for the brand and the financial future of the organization.

In my opinion United's biggest problem is the Glazer ownership who have taken money out of the club rather than invest. The club has the highest revenue in the prems and the 3rd highest in world football yet isn't able to fund a squad that is comparable to that of Barcelona, Madrid or Bayern. Investment has been neglected for several years now and this is catching up with the team. Just as the Glazer's other franchise Tampa Bay has suffered from years of neglect. Given that the Glazers have switched to emergency spending on Tampa before this season, I suspect it will be a while before United can be propped up.

About Klopp and Guardiola, both were in different situations: one came when the team was on the brink of bankruptcy while the other came through the club's ranks from player to reserves coach. Moyes neither came through United's ranks nor won anything before getting a legitimate chance to get the job for the most recent champions. Nevertheless, the question is still there: why have the likes of Chelsea, Manchester City and Tottenham never gone for David Moyes when they needed someone to take any of their teams to another level if Moyes is that damn good? As far as we know, City and Tottenham were projects not so long ago, but they never went after Moyes.

If Moyes knew what weaknesses he had, he should have done a minimum of effort to retain 2 out of the backroom people who were there last year simply to make an easier transition. Guardiola brought his own Spanish assistant, but the Bayern goalkeeper and first team coaches kept their jobs. Instead, he changed the goalkeeper coach, he brought in the controversial figure known as Steve Round and the inexperienced Phil Neville.

If we drop out of the top 4, it will be extremely difficult to become attractive to players we look after in order to make the rebuilding process successful. Liverpool are barely coming out of the woods after spending a few years outside of the top 4. Indeed, it hurts the brand financially.

About the Glazers, I'm just baffled that no one forced them to sell any of their assets ASAP in order for banks to get their bloody money back in these times of economic uncertainty. That's what they did for Tom Hicks and George Gillett at Liverpool however. If that debt was solved, there would be no excuse whatsoever about not investing into the club. Still, I'll hang those bastards dry until the day they GTFO of my club. Love United Hate Glazer.

[Bri]

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

About Klopp and Guardiola, both were in different situations: one came when the team was on the brink of bankruptcy while the other came through the club's ranks from player to reserves coach. Moyes neither came through United's ranks nor won anything before getting a legitimate chance to get the job for the most recent champions. Nevertheless, the question is still there: why have the likes of Chelsea, Manchester City and Tottenham never gone for David Moyes when they needed someone to take any of their teams to another level if Moyes is that damn good? As far as we know, City and Tottenham were projects not so long ago, but they never went after Moyes.

I think clubs like Chelsea and City want a different type of manager, someone who can control a collection of star players and get results in the short term. Tottenham mainly hired managers who had been active in the London area.

I'm not saying Moyes is doing a great job so far, but his appointment was logical. He had proven at Preston and Everton that he can make a team punch above it's weight, find value in the transfer market and was able to hold a management job over time. It's pretty clear the board wanted a Ferguson clone.

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

If Moyes knew what weaknesses he had, he should have done a minimum of effort to retain 2 out of the backroom people who were there last year simply to make an easier transition. Guardiola brought his own Spanish assistant, but the Bayern goalkeeper and first team coaches kept their jobs. Instead, he changed the goalkeeper coach, he brought in the controversial figure known as Steve Round and the inexperienced Phil Neville.

I agree that breaking up the old staff and replacing them with his own people was a mistake. Another major issue is Rooney. He can't be played upfront with Van Persie without unbalancing midfield yet Moyes can't seem to drop him either.

[Terrestrial Dream]

Remember when people wanted Ferguson sacked in first few years? Yeah. Football fans need more patient these days. Feel like stability is so important for football club, but fan gets too impatient and wants result now.

Here is the thing, constant success like United had was incredible. You can't expect that kinda of success forever. So a down year might happen, especially a transition year. And unlike Liverpool, United had great success years, so their image in the world should be safe for few more year.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Terrestrial Dream

Remember when people wanted Ferguson sacked in first few years? Yeah. Football fans need more patient these days. Feel like stability is so important for football club, but fan gets too impatient and wants result now.

Here is the thing, constant success like United had was incredible. You can't expect that kinda of success forever. So a down year might happen, especially a transition year. And unlike Liverpool, United had great success years, so their image in the world should be safe for few more year.

It is not the same. As United back then was literally a mid-table team, even relegation contenders. That's why Ferguson was also allowed ( i think) 3 years winning nothing. He also has got good record in his previous clubs (i think winning several Scottish Championship?).

Furthermore football nowadays has changed as once you fell out of the top, it's awfully hard to get back. You do remember that Liverpool was winning the CL in 2005, went to CL final in 2007, was incredibly close to winning EPL title in 2008 and was considered one of the strongest team in Europe around that time, much more so than Real Madrid or even Barcelona. One season out of top 4. Lost an influential manager. And now they spent past 4 years skirting top half of the table. Same problem like United do now as they don't have money to overpay for players, and seeing their main target off to Real, Barcelona, Bayern, Chelsea...etc...

[Terrestrial Dream]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

It is not the same. As United back then was literally a mid-table team, even relegation contenders. That's why Ferguson was also allowed ( i think) 3 years winning nothing. He also has got good record in his previous clubs (i think winning several Scottish Championship?).

Furthermore football nowadays has changed as once you fell out of the top, it's awfully hard to get back. You do remember that Liverpool was winning the CL in 2005, went to CL final in 2007, was incredibly close to winning EPL title in 2008 and was considered one of the strongest team around that time, much more so than Real Madrid or even Barcelona. One season out of top 4. Lost an influential manager. And now they spent past 4 years skirting top half of the table. Same problem like United do now as they don't have money to overpay for players, and seeing their main target off to Real, Barcelona, Bayern, Chelsea...etc...

You are not wrong, but then again it has not even been a year since Moyes took over. So bit more patients as season is far from over.

Here is the thing about Liverpool though, during that span they just won that two or three trophies nothing else, though that one CL is amazing. Also haven't won a league title for two decades, while United have been winning for years. That kinda of image will last, hell even Liverpool is still popular despite their failure over the years. And Liverpool further proves my point. Their problem was a result of the failure within their ownership and their front office. Liverpool's recent turn around came as a result of their new owner and sticking with a manger, instead of sacking him for a slow start. Stability is really important for a club, unless they have sugar daddy like City or Chelsea.

And I am not saying Moyes is doing a good job, but this is a learning process for him as well. Give him time and lets see how this team goes.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Terrestrial Dream

You are not wrong, but then again it has not even been a year since Moyes took over. So bit more patients as season is far from over.

Here is the thing about Liverpool though, during that span they just won that two or three trophies nothing else, though that one CL is amazing. Also haven't won a league title for two decades, while United have been winning for years. That kinda of image will last, hell even Liverpool is still popular despite their failure over the years. And Liverpool further proves my point. Their problem was a result of the failure within their ownership and their front office. Liverpool's recent turn around came as a result of their new owner and sticking with a manger, instead of sacking him for a slow start. Stability is really important for a club, unless they have sugar daddy like City or Chelsea.

And I am not saying Moyes is doing a good job, but this is a learning process for him as well. Give him time and lets see how this team goes.

Nah, i'm not actually calling Moyes off. Just stating that it must be quite a big pressure on him and MU's board to keep United afloat right now. As they may not be able to afford him as much time as Fergison.

I means honestly their results were not actually that bad. If Ferguson was still on the helm, i have no doubt that they can turn it around. But with Moyes there, the doubt of his ability would make his job much, much harder

[Bri]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

Furthermore football nowadays has changed as once you fell out of the top, it's awfully hard to get back. You do remember that Liverpool was winning the CL in 2005, went to CL final in 2007, was incredibly close to winning EPL title in 2008 and was considered one of the strongest team in Europe around that time, much more so than Real Madrid or even Barcelona. One season out of top 4. Lost an influential manager. And now they spent past 4 years skirting top half of the table. Same problem like United do now as they don't have money to overpay for players, and seeing their main target off to Real, Barcelona, Bayern, Chelsea...etc...

Not making the CL one or two years should not be an insurmountable problem for any top side. Liverpool's decline is also strongly linked to terrible transfer spending and not upgrading Anfield in time for increased match day revenue.

[Terrestrial Dream]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

Nah, i'm not actually calling Moyes off. Just stating that it must be quite a big pressure on him and MU's board to keep United afloat right now. As they may not be able to afford him as much time as Fergison.

I means honestly their results were not actually that bad. If Ferguson was still on the helm, i have no doubt that they can turn it around. But with Moyes there, the doubt of his ability would make his job much, much harder

All fair points actually, not going to disagree with you. But one thing that I am interest is that, I believe Everton under Moyes starts doing well in the second half of the season, so maybe United will do a similar thing, well at least hopefully

Nevertheless, this season for United should be interesting.

[KiraYamatoFan]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

I means honestly their results were not actually that bad. If Ferguson was still on the helm, i have no doubt that they can turn it around. But with Moyes there, the doubt of his ability would make his job much, much harder

When anybody looks at the overall picture, the main problem with Moyes is his consistent use of negative tactics to scrape results. The game on Saturday popped up to the eye, but it was also the same in previous games. David Stranger wrote an excellent article on Football365/Sky Sports the other day about how Moyes held the beast that is United with his negative tactics and poor subs although we know that the team's philosophy is more often about going for the jugular.

As risingstar3110 mentioned, the context behind SAF's arrival in 1986 was a lot different compared to Moyes' arrival this year. However, Alex Ferguson (not Sir back then) won 3 Scottish league, a number of Scottish Cups and the UEFA Cup Winners' Cup as well. As you can see, Fergie had the résumé with him while Moyes doesn't and that part is the most baffling one really. The only exception I would have made in hiring a manager is Ole Gunnar Solskajer because he won everything as a player and he worked very well as the Reserves' coach before coaching Molde.

Originally Posted by Terrestrial Dream

Remember when people wanted Ferguson sacked in first few years? Yeah. Football fans need more patient these days. Feel like stability is so important for football club, but fan gets too impatient and wants result now.

Although I'm a Man Utd fan, I also read a little about Bayern Munich's history because I have great respect for them. I also noticed that they sacked their fair share of managers although they are not a sugar daddy club. At the same time, they were never afraid to go beyond borders looking for a manager. Did Bayern's avant-garde approach hinder their overall success? Nope. The area where Bayern can boast to be very stable and rightfully so was embodied by Uli Hoeness, the man above the manager setting the club's vision.

What I mean is that United's board shouldn't be afraid to sack people when things go wrong nor they should be afraid of hiring a foreigner even if there's no guarantee for him to stay long term. After all, Ferguson and Wenger are the last of their kind in all of pro sports.

Did anybody watch the Arsenal-Dortmund game today? It was some good football with good tempo based on what was displayed.