[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I guess the chainlock got fixed by a "plot seal" as well then, that's quite an interesting perspective.

Ironically, the chain lock on the guestroom is the only seal we can verify was physically created with duct tape. That was why I said "almost all cases." Other than the lines that reference that chain lock, not one single line of red or blue text refers to duct tape.

What Renall posted about narrative seals is basically in agreement with me, so I won't repeat it. I will say this, though.

According to the scene we were shown, Erika stopped time immediately after she left the neighboring room. While time was stopped, she conducted her location check, and then declared that the cousins' room and neighboring room were sealed. So long as you insist that this scene was not a fantasy, it is physically impossible for her to have sealed the windows with duct tape from the outside. You can't have it both ways.

[Nihilartikel]

Originally Posted by Renall

[*] The whole Mary Sue parody phenomenon. She's an obvious caricature and the writer and readers all know it. We're all in on a joke that only Erika isn't. Hmmm.[*] Almost nothing she says or does is anything that somebody else couldn't have contributed and indeed often did. She rarely actually has her own ideas, just hijacks other people's.

I took that as Ryukishi hinting at Erika's presence not being such a big deal. "Here's your usual Seacats with a side order of intellectual rapist". She doesn't affect the mystery itself, just its resolution.

Originally Posted by Renall

[*] Her behavior is nonsensical and meta. She can manifest detective authority on the gameboard, talks about meta concepts on the board (such as red text), and has that bizarre freakout at lunch after the study fiasco that everyone pointedly ignores like it never happened. Either she didn't make such an outburst (because she didn't, or because she doesn't exist at all), or she did and now you're arguing that a piece can use meta-awareness. Which Kanon and Shannon do in ep4. Hmmmmm.

Again, to me that just goes to show that she was introduced that sort of character. The whole point of Erika is "here's a character who knows she's in a mystery novel, let's see what happens now". Her behaviour IS nonsensical and meta, but I don't think you can get around that by saying that she's somebody's alter ego, because that would require that other person to act all nonsensical and meta (it would be kind of nuts even for, say, Eva, to suddenly decide that she'll keep tabs on everyone by sealing doors with tape).

Red is true. Period. Erika's statement is true. Battler and Beatrice's statement is true. A statement has to account for that. Shkanon accounts for it (however much I dislike it). "Erika" accounts for it. "Bern just erased you" doesn't really.

"Bern erased her" is my explanation for Erika's "dead" TIPS (or lack thereof). I would chalk up the contradicting reds just to Ryukishi letting Erika finish her sentence without choking for the sake of drama.

Anyway, I think we've seen conflicting red truths before, right? What about the scene in Alliance where Ange revives Sakutaro all the while Beato says that such a thing is impossible and that no magic other than her own can work in her Golden Land.

It's possible she knew all this stuff, but I'm not following you on the relevance of her being mistaken about this or that. She's not the GM, so of course she doesn't need to understand everything. And even if she thinks she's figured it all out, it's very much in Erika's character to be wrong.

My point is that if Erika found a flaw in what she thought was Beato's solution to the logic error (for example, that it required a 19th person/Kinzo to be alive), Beato and Battler's lowering the number of people amounts to telling her that she's mistaken at a very fundamental level about the nature of Beato's solution to the logic error.


I just remembered one more thing that had been bothering me, and I think it may sort of support the "Erika" theories: why did Erika insist on Battler not saying in red the names of all the people sealed in the cousins' room? It was at her insistence that Battler said that "everyone else" was there instead of listing all the names, yet it doesn't seem to work to her advantage at all... unless she was actually one of the people supposedly sealed in that room (say, Jessica, or, my god, Rudolph), and couldn't bear to have her location confirmed in red when she was in fact in the hallway at the moment. But this would sort of require Battler to be unaware of the whole "Erika" thing. I don't really like it, but it would explain why Erika insisted on Battler saying "everyone else".

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Nihilartikel

My point is that if Erika found a flaw in what she thought was Beato's solution to the logic error (for example, that it required a 19th person/Kinzo to be alive), Beato and Battler's lowering the number of people amounts to telling her that she's mistaken at a very fundamental level about the nature of Beato's solution to the logic error.

That's just it, she didn't find a flaw in the solution. At that point, she already knew she'd lost, and she was basically asking Battler and Beato to finish her off. And, each side already knew what red the other was loading in their gun.

"I am... the Witch of Truth, Furudo Erika....
...The Witch of Truth... is a witch who can stand up to... the truth.
I think... I can finally accept... the real truth about myself...."

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Nihilartikel

I took that as Ryukishi hinting at Erika's presence not being such a big deal. "Here's your usual Seacats with a side order of intellectual rapist". She doesn't affect the mystery itself, just its resolution.

...

Again, to me that just goes to show that she was introduced that sort of character. The whole point of Erika is "here's a character who knows she's in a mystery novel, let's see what happens now". Her behaviour IS nonsensical and meta, but I don't think you can get around that by saying that she's somebody's alter ego, because that would require that other person to act all nonsensical and meta (it would be kind of nuts even for, say, Eva, to suddenly decide that she'll keep tabs on everyone by sealing doors with tape).

Well sure, but you can't think that isn't supposed to mean something. Even the "Krauss punches a goat" scene, though fundamentally silly, might very well mean something.

"Bern erased her" is my explanation for Erika's "dead" TIPS (or lack thereof). I would chalk up the contradicting reds just to Ryukishi letting Erika finish her sentence without choking for the sake of drama.

Anyway, I think we've seen conflicting red truths before, right? What about the scene in Alliance where Ange revives Sakutaro all the while Beato says that such a thing is impossible and that no magic other than her own can work in her Golden Land.

You are, of course, assuming that this was wrong. If magic that isn't Beatrice's does not work in the Golden Land, and ANGE's magic works... then there's a fairly logical conclusion to be drawn from that, isn't there?

My point is that if Erika found a flaw in what she thought was Beato's solution to the logic error (for example, that it required a 19th person/Kinzo to be alive), Beato and Battler's lowering the number of people amounts to telling her that she's mistaken at a very fundamental level about the nature of Beato's solution to the logic error.

But why then did she not insist Battler give a full accounting of persons in the other room? It could only have worked in her favor. Unless, of course, she was already suspicious of something. Shkanon, for instance, or "Erika," are both things that could have possibly crossed her mind. There may be other explanations, but I don't know what they'd be.

I just remembered one more thing that had been bothering me, and I think it may sort of support the "Erika" theories: why did Erika insist on Battler not saying in red the names of all the people sealed in the cousins' room? It was at her insistence that Battler said that "everyone else" was there instead of listing all the names, yet it doesn't seem to work to her advantage at all... unless she was actually one of the people supposedly sealed in that room (say, Jessica, or, my god, Rudolph), and couldn't bear to have her location confirmed in red when she was in fact in the hallway at the moment. But this would sort of require Battler to be unaware of the whole "Erika" thing. I don't really like it, but it would explain why Erika insisted on Battler saying "everyone else".

If Erika became suspicious that her piece didn't exist, she might want to test that. Alternately, she has some other suspicion about how Battler intends to run his game, or she thinks she could somehow jeopardize the Logic Error if someone in the cousins room is named in red. No idea though. I'm not denying Meta-Erika is an independent entity, of course, but Bern/Lambda/Battler/Beatrice could be fundamentally misleading her as to her own existence. If she started to think that was true (whether or not it was), that could be a real problem for her.

[Digdri]

Originally Posted by Ronove

Just a request here:

Can anyone continue on with the summaries of EP6, like MeoTwisters? I'm sort of lost on what's happening, including Logic Error, Erika's Murder, (including why is she holding a gun), etc.

Please and thank you *w*

I second this. MeoTwisters summaries are really helpful if you cannot read the VNs at all even if they are brief. But right now he seem to have no time or motivation to continue so I would really appreciate if someone would at least give a brief overlook how this story concludes in chronological order (or point to any source were someone did this).
I really like to read about all this discussion in this forum but right now my one way to deal with the topics is to read between the lines of this single-aspect-analysis and puzzle together what went on later in the storyline but thats not really fun and obviously a total mood killer for the story so I gave up on this.
Also considering how much time the backtracking of those 70+ pages of this thread would result to even right now if I had the infos I simply consider it "unreadable" for the time being.

So if anyone feel entitled to help all those who a not versed in Japanese but still like to discuss about what EP6 present to us before the WH patches comes out (and this thread may have reached 120-150 pages of analysis and theories) here is a your chance to be a hero. ;P

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Renall

A seal need not be physical. Where does it say that? We only ever see one seal actually broken in ep5, and it's the one Eva, not Erika, made. Eva has "sealed" rooms before without actually "sealing" them; the receipt trick for example. The receipt does not actually prevent anyone from entering or leaving the closed room. It does, however, prevent them from doing so without her knowledge. If the seal HAD been broken, Eva would know someone had entered or left the study... not necessarily if it was Kinzo who did it. A seal can be tricked in some sense.

The receipt is still something physical. Something that is merely speculated as you say doesn't work as seal in any way. The seal needs to be something that a piece inside the gameboard can see with his own eyes.
Just for the records Renall but what kind of meaning had that scene showing Erika saying that the duct tape she has found was "no good" because it had no adesive force if she didn't need to actually place any duct tape?

Originally Posted by Renall

No, actually, I'm the one with the most faith in the red. I'm saying a guarantee of a room's sealing is correct even if the room was never physically sealed. Merely guaranteeing it is enough for me.

I disagree. There are reds stating that the seal is intact or the seal is broken. You are telling me that the word seal can be used for imaginary seals that do not even exist. So red can be used for imaginary things?

Originally Posted by Renall

As to the scene where Erika told Hideyoshi that, well, maybe she was someone else. Someone we assumed was put in the other room and sealed in. Or maybe no one sealed anyone in, and everybody went into one or the other room. Who knows?

No one sealed anyone? Now you are even questioning that the seal real or not was even placed?

And what about everyone went into the other room? Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are in the neighboring room, since everyone else is said to be inside the cousin's room there is absolutely no one inside the neighboring room except the persons mentioned.

But you are missing my point. There is a scene where we see Erika exiting from the neighboring room from the door. It was Erika's piece if you want, but it doesn't change the fact that it had to be either a true scene or a scene made up by Battler. If it was true no problem. If it was fake, I have a big problem.
Battler clearly showed how he doesn't agree with the removal of Erika's detective authority, he was quite pissed off. So why would you even think that he's taking advantage of that, by showing Erika's piece do something that she never did?

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Ironically, the chain lock on the guestroom is the only seal we can verify was physically created with duct tape. That was why I said "almost all cases." Other than the lines that reference that chain lock, not one single line of red or blue text refers to duct tape.

Once we have confirmed that the duct tape exists, there are very little reasons to say it wasn't used to seal the doors (at the very least them). As I explained above, while the red doesn't mention the duct tape itself it does still mention the seal, and a red that mentions something that doesn't exist and is just imaginary is unacceptable.

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

According to the scene we were shown, Erika stopped time immediately after she left the neighboring room. While time was stopped, she conducted her location check, and then declared that the cousins' room and neighboring room were sealed. So long as you insist that this scene was not a fantasy, it is physically impossible for her to have sealed the windows with duct tape from the outside. You can't have it both ways.

Denied.
Battler granted to Erika the power to completely seal three rooms retroactively. That means Erika sealed the windows in a previous instance. The same applies for Battler's room which must have happened shortly after Erika killed the rest.
This works the same way as "changing the gameboard" which you explained before. This is a a sort of limited GM power that Battler gave to Erika.

[Koi]

SInce the number of people is 17, I take it Battler faked a person's existence here?
I mean, just like Beato faked Kinzo's?

Erika is not the culprit I think because she THINKS she's the detective, but there's no way to guarantee the corpse's death status because Ronove said it's possible for something NOT a corpse to be recognized as a corpse, and it's most likely they won't laugh even if she pokes them, and so to make sure the dead stays dead she cut off their heads.
right?

[Jan-Poo]

That's one of the possibilities that have been examined. But if Battler doesn't exist then his "objective perspective" is put on question. Practically everytime he sees someone interacting to him, it's a fake scene. Just think about the dinner, surely they didn't leave a vacant seat for him.

Right now the main two theories are:

Shannon and Kanon are the same person

and

Erika doesn't exist

[Nihilartikel]

Originally Posted by Renall

You are, of course, assuming that this was wrong. If magic that isn't Beatrice's does not work in the Golden Land, and ANGE's magic works... then there's a fairly logical conclusion to be drawn from that, isn't there?

Of course, either they are not in the Golden Land (they are, as Beato says this in red) or Ange's magic IS Beato's magic (how that works when she's doing something Beato herself considers impossible escapes me). But that still doesn't really account for Beatrice saying in red that her magic can't revive Sakutaro.

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

That's just it, she didn't find a flaw in the solution. At that point, she already knew she'd lost, and she was basically asking Battler and Beato to finish her off. And, each side already knew what red the other was loading in their gun.

"I am... the Witch of Truth, Furudo Erika....
...The Witch of Truth... is a witch who can stand up to... the truth.
I think... I can finally accept... the real truth about myself...."

Ok, I didn't remember her saying that... I'm kinda buying the whole "Erika" thing now. God knows it would be better than Shkanon.

Anyhow, if "Erika" is true, any thoughts on Erika's conversation/game with Dlanor about love and trusting the other person in a relationship (it looked kind of out of place for Erika to have that in her background given her age, so I suppose it could be a clue to her real identity).

[Kaiba]

Of course, either they are not in the Golden Land (they are, as Beato says this in red) or Ange's magic IS Beato's magic (how that works when she's doing something Beato herself considers impossible escapes me). But that still doesn't really account for Beatrice saying in red that her magic can't revive Sakutaro.

Or Ange never used magic. That's another possibility.

[Axilios]

Ange's magic IS Beato's magic

Wasn't it stated in ep4 that the magical compendium of Marriage Sorciere is also Beato's compendium?
My guess is that Ange used Maria's "magic" by inducing her to believe that she can revive Sakutarou.
With a repaired Sakutarou and the imagination of a child like Maria, It wouldn't be difficult for her to believe that Sakutarou is resurrected.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

The receipt is still something physical. Something that is merely speculated as you say doesn't work as seal in any way. The seal needs to be something that a piece inside the gameboard can see with his own eyes.
Just for the records Renall but what kind of meaning had that scene showing Erika saying that the duct tape she has found was "no good" because it had no adesive force if she didn't need to actually place any duct tape?

"Magic" scene indicative that, in Battler's game, such seals are not possible to make, and therefore will not be permitted.

I disagree. There are reds stating that the seal is intact or the seal is broken. You are telling me that the word seal can be used for imaginary seals that do not even exist. So red can be used for imaginary things?

Of course it can. What do you think the meta-world is, more or less? I'll explain my perspective below.

No one sealed anyone? Now you are even questioning that the seal real or not was even placed?

The rules of the game and especially of the red text permit that the GM may establish rules which make the game easier for the other player even if those decisions are entirely imaginary and arbitrary. When Kanon is missing, it is not strictly necessary to say he's dead, nor is it possible to verify; however, Beatrice nevertheless told Battler that information in red.

A seal is nothing more than a piece of information as far as the meta-characters see it. It is a verification that a particular form of entry or exit was not used between the time of the sealing and the time the seal was broken. The games have shown that many objects can count as a seal, such as a chain, tape, a key inside the pocket of someone in the room, a receipt, etc. Not all of these are particularly valid seals, at least from a physical standpoint. In fact, before Erika and Dlanor got involved, pretty much every seal - even the physical ones - was incomplete and required red text from Beatrice to complete the seal. This red text is physically unverifiable and wholly fictional. It was a conceit that Beatrice placed to make the room seal "complete" and prevent Battler from simply saying "well, it was never actually sealed."

Logically, then: If a seal can be partially imaginary, it can be completely imaginary, as long as the information (the restriction on who can enter or exit or pass through something) is properly guaranteed and the non-physicality of the seal is never exploited. When Dlanor guarantees that no one passed through a window, they didn't, even if nothing physically existed to prevent them from doing it. In permitting the room sealings, Battler implicitly agreed to honor the rule restrictions. It doesn't even matter if a human being did anything to create the physical seal, although they can. For instance, we know Eva has made physical seals in at least two episodes. That doesn't mean she has to, if the GM assents to allowing the room to be considered "sealed."

And what about everyone went into the other room? Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are in the neighboring room, since everyone else is said to be inside the cousin's room there is absolutely no one inside the neighboring room except the persons mentioned.

Except "Erika." Unless there was no "Erika," and everyone was in both rooms, which still permits someone to escape through a narrow loophole (the "Kinzo" theory, e.g.). They simply have to have never been in the room in the first place yet not considered part of "everyone else."

But you are missing my point. There is a scene where we see Erika exiting from the neighboring room from the door. It was Erika's piece if you want, but it doesn't change the fact that it had to be either a true scene or a scene made up by Battler. If it was true no problem. If it was fake, I have a big problem.
Battler clearly showed how he doesn't agree with the removal of Erika's detective authority, he was quite pissed off. So why would you even think that he's taking advantage of that, by showing Erika's piece do something that she never did?

Perhaps someone did leave and entered the second room as a member of the group of "everyone else." The room was "sealed" when he or she entered.

Once we have confirmed that the duct tape exists, there are very little reasons to say it wasn't used to seal the doors (at the very least them). As I explained above, while the red doesn't mention the duct tape itself it does still mention the seal, and a red that mentions something that doesn't exist and is just imaginary is unacceptable.

As stated above, it's perfectly acceptable and even preferable to believing the actual physical tape was used. We know someone used tape in ep5, as Eva put a seal on Genji's door. That means a tape seal is possible. That doesn't mean all the stated tape seals were really made. But Lambdadelta consented to allowing the doors and windows to be considered sealed.

Denied.
Battler granted to Erika the power to completely seal three rooms retroactively. That means Erika sealed the windows in a previous instance. The same applies for Battler's room which must have happened shortly after Erika killed the rest.
This works the same way as "changing the gameboard" which you explained before. This is a a sort of limited GM power that Battler gave to Erika.

Does it not occur to you that retroactively doing things is impossible? There were never any physical seals; Battler just agreed to act as if there were and restrict his options accordingly.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Digdri

I second this. MeoTwisters summaries are really helpful if you cannot read the VNs at all even if they are brief. But right now he seem to have no time or motivation to continue so I would really appreciate if someone would at least give a brief overlook how this story concludes in chronological order (or point to any source were someone did this).
I really like to read about all this discussion in this forum but right now my one way to deal with the topics is to read between the lines of this single-aspect-analysis and puzzle together what went on later in the storyline but thats not really fun and obviously a total mood killer for the story so I gave up on this.
Also considering how much time the backtracking of those 70+ pages of this thread would result to even right now if I had the infos I simply consider it "unreadable" for the time being.

Well, I have pretty complete notes, so I could post those if people don't mind wading through the formatting. I think MeoTwister left off in Chapter 14 somewhere?

Spoiler for Chapter 14 summary:

Chapter 14: A Small Contradiction

Guesthouse, Lounge, 2:22am (no change)
(Krauss, Rudolf, Erika)
Erika: there’s no physical evidence, so they can’t just lock the servants in a closet
• Best to have someone holding a gun stay with them and keep watch
Rudolf suggests they collect the master keys too
Krauss: all of the servants have been working for the family a long time
• Can’t believe they’d commit murder
Erika: they might if they could get a share of the gold or the inheritance, which is in question due to Kinzo’s condition
Rudolf: they might be helping Kinzo conduct an occult ritual
He asks if Krauss managed to get in touch with Kinzo yet
Krauss: the internal phone line won’t connect
• The culprit may have broken it
• Sometimes Kinzo gets irritated with the family and leaves the phone off the hook too
• But the study is like a shelter, so it would be best for him to stay locked up in there anyway
Krauss is being kind of flustered and incoherent while he covers up Kinzo’s death
The game master hasn’t particularly made Kinzo’s death a keyword, so Rudolf doesn’t try to follow up on it and ends the questioning there

Erika: Hideyoshi is upstairs dividing everyone into two rooms for a siege
Genji (the head of the servants), Gohda (the strongest), and Kanon (a boy) are potentially the most dangerous, so they’ll be isolated in the cousins’ room with Krauss and Rudolf
Rudolf suggests that Jessica go with them to act as a limiter on him and Krauss, to keep them from doing anything rash
Erika: that would also balance out the wolves and sheep
Krauss agrees; he appears calm now, but doesn’t know when the grief and rage from his wife’s death might hit him
• He also wants Jessica where he can see her in this situation
The remaining six people will hole up in the room next to the cousins’ room

Cousins’ room: Krauss, Rudolf, Jessica, Genji, Kanon, Gohda
Next door: Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, Nanjo, Erika

The external phone line is down, possibly due to the culprit
According to the forecast, they’ll probably need to continue the siege for two full nights
During Erika’s group’s strategy meeting, food and blankets are gathered for the siege
Krauss and Rudolf can’t both sleep if they’re watching the culprit, so one of them will have to go to sleep immediately

Meta Field
Battler compliments Erika’s ability to control the situation without the detective’s authority
The authority is like magic; it can’t do what the user couldn’t do for herself
It’s people who can conceal the effort they’ve exerted who are called witches
Battler wonders why Erika divided everyone into two rooms instead of one
Erika: would have used one if she had detective’s authority
• She used two in order to secure her ability to investigate freely

Guesthouse, Neighboring Room
In the cousins’ room, Jessica is resting on Krauss’s shoulder
Kanon wants to go sit by her, but Rudolf keeps glaring at him
The servants can clearly tell he suspects them
Gohda tries to butter him up, but it just backfires on him

In the neighboring room, Hideyoshi tries to relax everyone by telling stories about how he’s good with a gun
Everyone’s heard the stories before, so they sound flashy and don’t make him seem more reliable at all, but it does relax the atmosphere
Erika tells Hideyoshi she wants to go check something with the servants in the other room
• Since it’s too dangerous to wander around, she’ll stay in the other room till morning
• There’s no one in the room who can go with her, since Hideyoshi needs to keep an eye on the servants and George needs to support him
Hideyoshi already has an impression of her as a competent detective, so he lets her go
He keeps her objective a secret from George, since he knows that George has a special relationship with Shannon
Erika keeps him from watching her go down the hall by warning him that he’s turning his back on Shannon
Hideyoshi shuts the door, leaving Erika able to roam freely for the next several hours

Meta Field
Before investigating, Erika wants to confirm everyone’s locations
If Battler refuses, she’ll just explain any later crimes by someone slipping out of the rooms
Erika: for the following requests, the following things hold
• “Neighboring room” refers to the room next to the cousins’ room where the other group is holed up
• The requests refer to the location of bodies only, not to whether they are alive or dead
• The requests refer to the present time

Erika: Request: The six victims of the first twilight are where they were discovered. Natsuhi in her room, Eva in the honored guest room, Kyrie in Krauss’s study, Rosa and Maria in the parlor, and you in the guest room!
• 第一の晩の犠牲者６人の所在は、発見場所のとおりである。@夏妃は自室、絵羽は貴賓室、霧江は蔵臼の書斎、 楼座と真里亞は客間で、あんたは客室
Battler: I’ll acknowledge that.
• それを認める。

Erika: Request: Those who are in the neighboring room are Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo!
• 隣部屋に所在するのは、秀吉、譲治、紗音、熊沢、南條である！
Battler: I acknowledge it.

Erika: Request: All other people are in the cousins’ room!
• いとこ部屋に所在するのは、それ以外の全員である
Battler hesitates at the word “all people”; he gets a gut feeling that he shouldn’t answer that immediately
Battler: I refuse. Repeating it would mean Kinzo’s corpse is in the cousins’ room.
Erika: Kinzo was already shown not to exist, so consider “all people” to exclude him
Battler asks why Erika is using a roundabout phrasing instead of listing the names; he wouldn’t mind repeating the list
Erika says she doesn’t want to bother listing them all; is there some trick that creates a problem with that word?
Battler probably would repeat “Krauss, Rudolf, Jessica, Genji, Gohda, and Kanon are in the cousins’ room” without paying it any mind
Normally Erika would be precise and check every name, so Battler feels a sense of unease
Beato: it’s “destruction,” a move to force the opponent to take apart their own position
Battler isn’t sure how, but he thinks this move is concealing some kind of nasty objective
But, if he doesn’t answer, he’ll leave room for mysterious culprit X
Battler: I acknowledge that all other people are in the cousins’ room.
• それ以外の全員が、いとこ部屋にいることを認める。
Erika looks incredibly happy, as if she succeeded pulling off a move she’d been preparing for

Guesthouse, 2F Hallway
Erika has Dlanor, Gertrude, and Cornelia seal the two rooms
Dlanor: Due to the seals on the doors and windows, the sealing of the cousins’ room and neighboring room is guaranteed.
• いとこ部屋、隣部屋の両部屋の密封は保証されマシタ。
Cornelia: this move looks like it actually hurts Erika since it limits the number of pieces she can explain mysteries with, so why did she use it?
Gertrude: Erika and Dlanor aren’t ready to reveal that yet

Meta Tea Room
Battler: at first glance, this move looks like a defensive one
• Locking in her pieces reduces Battler’s ability to approach and construct mysteries around them
• Original Beato’s specialty was probably bluffing that Battler’s defensive moves were ineffective when she was really wracking her brain to find a way around them
• But, this kind of move is fairly plain, so it doesn’t justify Erika being so proud of it
• It definitely has to be an attack of some kind
Battler and Beato have no choice but to treat it as a defensive move for the time being
Battler: although the guesthouse looks like it’s solidly Erika’s territory, there are pieces that can pierce through enemy lines, like bishops and knights
• A chess term: “x-ray,” a situation where your pieces can exert a lot of influence even in supposedly enemy territory
• Erika is naïve if she thinks locking up the survivors will stop his next attack
Battler creates a new black piece representing the witch’s darkness on the board, and advances it toward the single hole in Erika’s defenses

Guesthouse, Lounge
Erika feels like she finally stretch her wings
Dlanor notes that’s especially true since Bernkastel and Lambda aren’t around
Erika really is betting her own destruction on this game, and is at a severe disadvantage
Dlanor plans to help her as much as possible
They check that the first floor is all locked up; the chain lock in the entrance hall is set, and there are no irregularities
Erika gets an umbrella and flashlight from the servants’ room, which is right next to the entrance hall
She unlocks the chain and regular locks and goes outside
The first objective is to check out the six victims
Dlanor: the wind is very strong right now
Erika: it doesn't matter, this body is just a cage of flesh

She looks down, and notices one of Kinzo’s envelopes lying at her feet
It was left sticking out from under the mat, as if someone anticipated she would be leaving the guesthouse, and the overhang completely protected it from the rain
The letter begins, “Welcome, Furudo Erika-sama.”
• The author declares that they took Battler’s body, and Erika is welcome to try searching for it
Erika had checked here while locking up with Krauss, and there wasn’t a letter present at that time

Meta Tea Room
Erika says she has something to apologize for
Actually, she already used her third seal on the guest room with Battler’s body inside, but she failed to report it
She was going to wait until getting to the room in question before saying something, but since the letter came, she “worried” there might be a contradiction
Erika already suspected that the victims of the first twilight were just faking their deaths
If Battler is forced to retroactively change the story as a result of the seal, it will be as good as admitting someone among the six was alive
If he doesn’t change it, then it will create a Logic Error

Feather’s Library
Feather: magic can only do what can be done without magic
• In the case of Maria’s candy, that could be accomplished by putting candy in the cup while Maria’s eyes were closed
• Since Maria only observed the results, she could construct a witch’s illusion around the original sleight of hand
Ange: So, a Logic Error is a sleight of hand that has become impossible
There are two basic types of magic
• The first is pure illusion, like the war towers from Episode 3; anything can happen, but there is no physical effect
• Basically, a witch’s “lie” that can occur in a location with no observers, since there is no anti-magic toxin
• It’s the easiest type, since it doesn’t have any effect
• The second type, which could be called “real magic,” is magic accompanied by an effect
• For instance, an observer can see the empty cup, and then afterwards see that candy has appeared in the cup
Ange: only things that you can accomplish without magic can have effects
In Maria’s case, if she had denied that the cup was lifted while her eyes were closed, that would create a contradiction
• It’s her right as game master to change the trick behind the magic
• But, if all possible tricks were already denied, then that creates a logic error
Feather: a logic error is the worst kind of foul play for the witch side, and immediately causes the game to crash
• But, Battler isn’t at that stage yet since he still has various alternatives he can switch to
• The seal hasn’t been confirmed yet, and other victims besides Battler could still be alive

Meta Tea Room
Erika says that since she failed to report the seal in a timely manner, it’s her fault too, so Battler can go back and rewrite the story if he wants

Battler thinks to himself:
• Was actually planning for his piece to have been alive, and to have slipped out to place the letter himself
• Rewriting the details at this point would be the same as admitting Erika saw through the trick
• Anyone could leave the letter, but Battler’s body still needs to vanish from the guest room
• Doesn’t want to do something unsightly like break the seal either
• So, he wants to change the trick to something where the body vanishes without breaking the seal
Battler and Beato decide to keep the letter’s contents as they are and continue thinking till the last possible moment
Beato is upset that she can’t help Battler, since she can’t remember any of her former self’s expertise regarding locked rooms

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Renall

"Magic" scene indicative that, in Battler's game, such seals are not possible to make, and therefore will not be permitted.

Magic scenes involving the detective are not possible. Battler didn't even know that Erika renounced to her "authority" at that point of the story. I don't think I'm going to discuss anymore about how useless is the red if it can state imaginary things, because you would just slip away with sophistry.
Rather I want you to focus on this fact:

Erika says that the duct tape is useless and therefore she can't use it to make seals. That means that Erika needs duct tape in order to create any seal. Fake scenes are not allowed if they have absolutely no purpose. Do you really think it is good writing if something is being presented to the readers just to fool them but has no actual relevance to the story? So far every fake scene can be explained as a visualization of someone's lie or someone's perspective.
But in the case of this particular scene, who was lying and to whom?

Originally Posted by Renall

Except "Erika." Unless there was no "Erika," and everyone was in both rooms, which still permits someone to escape through a narrow loophole (the "Kinzo" theory, e.g.). They simply have to have never been in the room in the first place yet not considered part of "everyone else."

I don't understand what are you talking about. Please give me a better explanation of this.

Originally Posted by Renall

Perhaps someone did leave and entered the second room as a member of the group of "everyone else." The room was "sealed" when he or she entered.

Are you unaware that this is totally irrelevant, or are you just trying to avoid my point?

If Erika was shown exiting the room, that person had to be Erika, I can even accept that it was a person X controlled by Erika, but still "Erika". Battler does not like the idea that Erika doesn't have an objective perspective he won't show to Erika fake things in front of her eyes. He has shown to her that she left from the door after talking to Hideyoshi, and she stayed outside once the seals were placed. There is no reason to believe that was false, and I think you'll have a hard time trying to explain why Battler would use cheap tricks like that after showing that he's so willing to have a fair match that he gave to Erika the power to retroactively seal 3 rooms.

Originally Posted by Renall

Does it not occur to you that retroactively doing things is impossible? There were never any physical seals; Battler just agreed to act as if there were and restrict his options accordingly.

I fear you have still a lot to learn about the nature of this game. LyricalAura understood that much, if you are still clinging onto things like "it's not possible to retroactively change things in the gameboard" you haven't got it yet.

[Kitsu]

how useless is the red if it can state imaginary things

I would like to remind you that in the Kanon=Shannon theory, Kanon is an imaginary thing. As a person like Kanon does not exist (anymore in some theories) so he is actually non-existing in the physical world and just an delusion in Shannon's mind, so how can there be red applied to him?

Also I think in the beginning of episode 6 the closed room is new defined. They can only be made from the inside, but Erika made them from the outside with her taps. Or did I misunderstand that ...it has been bothering me for sometime already but I kinda was too embarassed to ask that.

[TDS]

Originally Posted by Nihilartikel

Of course, either they are not in the Golden Land (they are, as Beato says this in red) or Ange's magic IS Beato's magic (how that works when she's doing something Beato herself considers impossible escapes me). But that still doesn't really account for Beatrice saying in red that her magic can't revive Sakutaro.

The red doesn't contradict if magic wasn't what was used to revive Sakutaro. Rosa had made a second one, Ange found it and gave it to Maria. Simple as that.

... I don't have any ideas that actually relate to EP 6 right now, however. So I'll leave before I risk going too far off topic.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Denied.
Battler granted to Erika the power to completely seal three rooms retroactively. That means Erika sealed the windows in a previous instance. The same applies for Battler's room which must have happened shortly after Erika killed the rest.
This works the same way as "changing the gameboard" which you explained before. This is a a sort of limited GM power that Battler gave to Erika.

Okay, suppose Erika did place the window seals at an earlier time. Let's pull the thread on that a bit.

First, Erika didn't declare a retroactive move to do this at any point during the game, despite having declared such moves in two other cases. But let's set that aside for the moment.

Second, Erika wasn't shown checking the window seals after she left the neighboring room, so if they were physical seals, she'd have no way of knowing whether they were intact or not, since she isn't the game master. Let's set that aside too.

The idea to split up the survivors and put them in the cousins' room and neighboring room could not have occurred to Piece Erika until after the first twilight. She also couldn't have known the survivors would go along with it or use those specific rooms until after she told them about the plan.

Krauss was with Erika all the way from when they left the mansion until he took Genji and Gohda to the 2nd floor of the guesthouse. When he came back, he didn't know about the plan, so we can determine that she told Rudolf and Hideyoshi while he was upstairs. And since the clock at the start of Chapter 14 didn't move, we can determine that the meeting at the end of Chapter 13 is roughly contiguous with when Krauss came downstairs, so Erika was never alone until at least 2:22am.

Note that even though Erika can change her own moves retroactively, she doesn't have the right to change other characters' moves. And, since she didn't declare a retroactive move to Battler, he didn't get the opportunity to change them either. Therefore, since Erika was observed by other characters, this timeline is absolute.

The next clock we get is at 2:34am, at which point Erika is already up in the neighboring room and Hideyoshi has been telling stories for some time. In other words, that 12-minute period contains Erika's discussion with Krauss and Rudolf, AND her locking up the whole guesthouse with Krauss, AND some time spent in the neighboring room. Even assuming she wasn't physically with Krauss while locking up (would she really trust Krauss that much? would Krauss leave a little girl alone with a murderer running loose?), it would have taken at least several minutes to scale the wall and place seals outside.

Of course, climbing around on the outer wall, Erika would definitely get soaking wet, and there was no time to change between an elaborate dress and her swimsuit. Not to mention there were people in the rooms she was sealing up, so how did they not notice someone banging around outside the windows?

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Magic scenes involving the detective are not possible. Battler didn't even know that Erika renounced to her "authority" at that point of the story. I don't think I'm going to discuss anymore about how useless is the red if it can state imaginary things, because you would just slip away with sophistry.

Detective authority is something declared, not renounced. Erika wasn't even declared the detective in this episode. And in fact, she'd already told Battler she wasn't going to use the authority before the first twilight was even discovered.

And if you want to say that magic scenes involving Erika aren't possible, could you please explain how she was talking to an explicitly nonexistent person while making those duct tape seals?

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Magic scenes involving the detective are not possible. Battler didn't even know that Erika renounced to her "authority" at that point of the story. I don't think I'm going to discuss anymore about how useless is the red if it can state imaginary things, because you would just slip away with sophistry.

It's not my problem if you can't accept a simple conceit that the game has already used. It's yours to ignore, but I think it's an important consideration because it eliminates an obvious problem with Erika whether she's real or imaginary.

If Erika is real (or not), you no longer have to ask how she was climbing around outside all night, or how she listened to Battler all night long without falling asleep. She didn't. The GM merely accepted it was possible for her to have done so and, to be sporting to her as detective, granted her the privilege to act as if she had. There. Simple. It's not something Erika did (at least not to the extent Meta-Erika claims), but a conceit Meta-Erika embellishes her piece having done.

If Erika's real, she only needs to place a couple seals, maybe on the doors. She's not as good a detective as she claims, after all, but she hardly has to be. If she's fake, she never had to place any seals or exist at all. It resolves the matter either way. It's simple. It's elegant. It breaks no rules of the game board.

Rather I want you to focus on this fact:

Erika says that the duct tape is useless and therefore she can't use it to make seals. That means that Erika needs duct tape in order to create any seal. Fake scenes are not allowed if they have absolutely no purpose. Do you really think it is good writing if something is being presented to the readers just to fool them but has no actual relevance to the story? So far every fake scene can be explained as a visualization of someone's lie or someone's perspective.
But in the case of this particular scene, who was lying and to whom?

No. Erika needs duct tape to make seals because humans cannot use red unless they can through their actions produce an absolutely verifiable result OR the Game Master gives them a red to work with. If Erika wants to seal a room without Battler's permission, she needs a physical means to do it. However, she receives Battler's permission later to declare three rooms "sealed." Battler doesn't need to magically and retroactively alter the stickiness of duct tape or severity of the rain; all he has to do is declare in red that the rooms fit the proper definition of being sealed (or permit Dlanor to do so on Erika's behalf for three specified rooms).

And by the way... who was lying in the ep5 parlor scene and why? Shkanon runs headlong into the same brick wall. Battler has no reason either to know or lie about it, and Erika ought to have been able to see through it. Doesn't happen, so why isn't Lambdadelta being criticized? Or is it merely that you think it's okay for LD to do something like that, but not Battler?

I don't understand what are you talking about. Please give me a better explanation of this.

If you don't understand what I'm talking about, you're being awfully critical of something you don't entirely grasp. I've done my best to explain it, I don't really know how else to put it.

Look at the summary. The people explicitly named (I'll call them the "list room" and "everyone else room" for now) are in the room with "Erika." "Erika" tells Hideyoshi she must go to the other room, and Hideyoshi lets her leave. Up until now, the "list room" was all the people listed and Erika, but she hasn't asked for the red verifying anyone's location yet.

She then "seals" the second room (the "everyone else room") and is able to operate outside the room. Now, she asks to confirm where everyone is. She asks:

• Where are the FT victims? Inside the rooms they were found in.
• Where are Shannon, Nanjo, Hideyoshi, George, and Kumasawa? In the "list room."
• Where is "everyone else?" In the "everyone else room." Excluding Kinzo.

There are several immediate problems here. She just asked where all "bodies" were. He didn't tell her where Erika was. But Erika, if she's a body, is part of "everyone else." She ought to be in the other room right now, which is explicitly what she told Hideyoshi she was going to do anyway. She was lying, at least as far as she seems to have seen, but isn't that where she's supposed to be right now?

She never asks to confirm her own location. "Erika" as a theory makes this plain: She doesn't exist. No one is outside, and "Erika" is in the "everyone else room." Alternately, someone doesn't count in the accounting of "everyone else." You can argue it's Erika herself, but why did Battler not refuse on the grounds of Piece-Erika not presently being in any room?

Are you unaware that this is totally irrelevant, or are you just trying to avoid my point?

If Erika was shown exiting the room, that person had to be Erika, I can even accept that it was a person X controlled by Erika, but still "Erika". Battler does not like the idea that Erika doesn't have an objective perspective he won't show to Erika fake things in front of her eyes. He has shown to her that she left from the door after talking to Hideyoshi, and she stayed outside once the seals were placed. There is no reason to believe that was false, and I think you'll have a hard time trying to explain why Battler would use cheap tricks like that after showing that he's so willing to have a fair match that he gave to Erika the power to retroactively seal 3 rooms.

Battler has to use some trick as he's actively trying to defeat her. His concessions are supposed to actually work in his own favor, eliminating possible "loose" pieces so that his illusion is more complete. A card trick's not as exciting if they can't see you handling the deck.

I see no reason he can't lie to Erika. Your opinion about what Battler would do as GM notwithstanding, Beatrice's resolution to the Logic Error must, by its very nature, exploit the fact that someone escaped from a room which was defined as sealed without breaking the seal. One way they could do this is to exploit a few of the loopholes suggested later. But Beatrice seems to be hinting she had another way entirely. That way, in my mind, can only have been that someone was not in the room we believed them to be in at all, because instead of a full accounting Erika had Battler say "everyone else."

I fear you have still a lot to learn about the nature of this game. LyricalAura understood that much, if you are still clinging onto things like "it's not possible to retroactively change things in the gameboard" you haven't got it yet.

Prove that any retroactive change allegedly implemented by any GM in any game thus far has ever actually changed the "hard facts" of a given game, or at least done so in direct contravention of what the detective has already experienced. You cannot, because it's never happened. This problem does not exist if the seals are merely considered informational states. Anything can be "retroactive" if defined from the witch's darkness with red when it previously wasn't. This includes the actions of the detective only if the detective more or less admits to not using their authority, doesn't have it, etc. If the authority is in place, it's incredibly unsporting for the detective to be able to do such a thing.

This also destroys your own argument, as Erika never saw herself placing those seals, never had any opportunity, and indeed rather explicitly saw a scene of herself lamenting that the seals could not be physically placed. But there is no problem if Battler's red was strictly an informational concession. So why exactly is her authority so inviolate, if to retroactively take back her moves she has to essentially admit "that scene didn't really happen?" It's vastly easier for Battler to say "even though you didn't place any seals, I guarantee that the rooms you chose will act as if they are sealed so that I can't simply have somebody sneak out."

Battler is doing Erika a favor here in order to maintain the mystery of his game. He's letting her narrow down the location of people so that she can't easily suggest in blue that it was one of them. However, he's letting her do it "her way," and this is a mistake. Beatrice would've simply let him advance a theory in blue and said in red that nobody from room x had left, or whatever.

EDIT: And note that if she doesn't have her authority, which she doesn't, then there's no problem with her being in a magic scene any more than there was of Battler seeing Kinzo in ep5. In which case, who cares what you saw happen?

[Dr. Akagi]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Well, I have pretty complete notes, so I could post those if people don't mind wading through the formatting.

Go-go, lyrical Aura-chan!

As for the whole epic Renall Vs. Jan-Poo theorycrafting, I'll support Renall for the time being, since he's talking sense (but then that's what he usually does). The problem is, by now I'm not so sure the same can be said about Ryukishi07.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

I would like to remind you that in the Kanon=Shannon theory, Kanon is an imaginary thing. As a person like Kanon does not exist (anymore in some theories) so he is actually non-existing in the physical world and just an delusion in Shannon's mind, so how can there be red applied to him?

At least it is still something you can tie with the real world. While a personality isn't something tangible, it is still something that can be "experienced" in the world. Not to mention that there is a flesh and blood body that can be called Kanon. "kanon" can actually be seen in the gameboard.
But what Renal is suggesting is something that can't be seen or touched or even perceived by anyone that isn't in the metaworld.

Originally Posted by Kitsu

Also I think in the beginning of episode 6 the closed room is new defined. They can only be made from the inside, but Erika made them from the outside with her taps. Or did I misunderstand that ...it has been bothering me for sometime already but I kinda was too embarassed to ask that.

I think there is a difference between closed room and sealed room. After all there wouldn't be any way to explain the guestroom case otherwise. Did Battler seal himself inside and then called Kanon to help him?

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Okay, suppose Erika did place the window seals at an earlier time. Let's pull the thread on that a bit.

First, Erika didn't declare a retroactive move to do this at any point during the game, despite having declared such moves in two other cases. But let's set that aside for the moment.

Second, Erika wasn't shown checking the window seals after she left the neighboring room, so if they were physical seals, she'd have no way of knowing whether they were intact or not, since she isn't the game master. Let's set that aside too.

The idea to split up the survivors and put them in the cousins' room and neighboring room could not have occurred to Piece Erika until after the first twilight. She also couldn't have known the survivors would go along with it or use those specific rooms until after she told them about the plan.

Krauss was with Erika all the way from when they left the mansion until he took Genji and Gohda to the 2nd floor of the guesthouse. When he came back, he didn't know about the plan, so we can determine that she told Rudolf and Hideyoshi while he was upstairs. And since the clock at the start of Chapter 14 didn't move, we can determine that the meeting at the end of Chapter 13 is roughly contiguous with when Krauss came downstairs, so Erika was never alone until at least 2:22am.

Note that even though Erika can change her own moves retroactively, she doesn't have the right to change other characters' moves. And, since she didn't declare a retroactive move to Battler, he didn't get the opportunity to change them either. Therefore, since Erika was observed by other characters, this timeline is absolute.

The next clock we get is at 2:34am, at which point Erika is already up in the neighboring room and Hideyoshi has been telling stories for some time. In other words, that 12-minute period contains Erika's discussion with Krauss and Rudolf, AND her locking up the whole guesthouse with Krauss, AND some time spent in the neighboring room. Even assuming she wasn't physically with Krauss while locking up (would she really trust Krauss that much? would Krauss leave a little girl alone with a murderer running loose?), it would have taken at least several minutes to scale the wall and place seals outside.

Of course, climbing around on the outer wall, Erika would definitely get soaking wet, and there was no time to change between an elaborate dress and her swimsuit. Not to mention there were people in the rooms she was sealing up, so how did they not notice someone banging around outside the windows?

You made it long but this has a quite easy explanation. There is a timespan where Erika was totally alone. That's when she killed everyone. Before meeting with the rest in the guesthouse she might have placed the seal in the cousin's room window and the room next to it.

I think you are forgetting that everyone went according to Erika's plan, and therefore it's not like it was decided later where they would hole up. They simply agreed to Erika's suggestion.

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Detective authority is something declared, not renounced. Erika wasn't even declared the detective in this episode. And in fact, she'd already told Battler she wasn't going to use the authority before the first twilight was even discovered.

I was talking about the scene where she says the duct tape isn't good. That happened before she told Battler she wasn't going to use authority.

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

And if you want to say that magic scenes involving Erika aren't possible, could you please explain how she was talking to an explicitly nonexistent person while making those duct tape seals?

Dlanor is Erika's furniture, it works the same as with Maria and Sakutaro, or Ange and Mammon. In that case it's the person herself that is "lying" to herself. But Battler the GM cannot lie to Erika the detective. That wouldn't be fair. Again I'll have you to remind you how much Battler wanted this fight to be fair. It just doesn't make any sense that from one side he's pissed off at Bern because she doesn't let Erika use her authority and then he blatantly shows Erika fake scenes in front of her piece, even though that never happened to him when he was playing against Beatrice.

Originally Posted by Renall

No. Erika needs duct tape to make seals because humans cannot use red unless they can through their actions produce an absolutely verifiable result OR the Game Master gives them a red to work with. If Erika wants to seal a room without Battler's permission, she needs a physical means to do it. However, she receives Battler's permission later to declare three rooms "sealed." Battler doesn't need to magically and retroactively alter the stickiness of duct tape or severity of the rain; all he has to do is declare in red that the rooms fit the proper definition of being sealed (or permit Dlanor to do so on Erika's behalf for three specified rooms).

That's why this kind of reasoning completely fails once you get to the chainlock.

1) We have a scene that confirms that the duct tape in this game is "no good"
2) Then we have a scene were Battler changes something in the game and that allow Erika to use a working duct tape to seal 3 rooms.

If it is, as you say, that Battler didn't really let Erika seal rooms with a real duct tape. Then he never changed the non working duct tape. The seals are just "imaginary", they are not physical objects.
But that reasoning can't possibly work with a chainlock. Erika could have not fixed it with an imaginary seal. Therefore the duct tape must exist and it must be the right one, else Battler could have simply detached it and reattached it after exiting.

Originally Posted by Renall

And by the way... who was lying in the ep5 parlor scene and why? Shkanon runs headlong into the same brick wall. Battler has no reason either to know or lie about it, and Erika ought to have been able to see through it. Doesn't happen, so why isn't Lambdadelta being criticized? Or is it merely that you think it's okay for LD to do something like that, but not Battler?

I think it was stated tons of times that the parlor scene was a replay, the one who sees it is Battler not Erika, and it is confirmed that Battler isn't the detective in EP5.

Originally Posted by Renall

Look at the summary. The people explicitly named (I'll call them the "list room" and "everyone else room" for now) are in the room with "Erika." "Erika" tells Hideyoshi she must go to the other room, and Hideyoshi lets her leave. Up until now, the "list room" was all the people listed and Erika, but she hasn't asked for the red verifying anyone's location yet.

She then "seals" the second room (the "everyone else room") and is able to operate outside the room. Now, she asks to confirm where everyone is. She asks:

• Where are the FT victims? Inside the rooms they were found in.
• Where are Shannon, Nanjo, Hideyoshi, George, and Kumasawa? In the "list room."
• Where is "everyone else?" In the "everyone else room." Excluding Kinzo.

There are several immediate problems here. She just asked where all "bodies" were. He didn't tell her where Erika was. But Erika, if she's a body, is part of "everyone else." She ought to be in the other room right now, which is explicitly what she told Hideyoshi she was going to do anyway. She was lying, at least as far as she seems to have seen, but isn't that where she's supposed to be right now?

She never asks to confirm her own location. "Erika" as a theory makes this plain: She doesn't exist. No one is outside, and "Erika" is in the "everyone else room." Alternately, someone doesn't count in the accounting of "everyone else." You can argue it's Erika herself, but why did Battler not refuse on the grounds of Piece-Erika not presently being in any room?

I don't think this explains how is it possible that everyone is in the same room, you have merely "explained" how it is not possible that Erika is outside.

Now let me reiterate again my first point: In the neighboring room only "Shannon, Kumasawa, Hideyoshi, George, Nanjo" are inside at the time of the seal. There is absolutely no one else. I require you to explain my how this can be different if you disagree.

As for the second point. I take it that you don't accept the obvious possibility that it goes without saying that "everyone else" doesn't include Erika by default.
Let's say that you are right and that at the time of the sealing the only real persons that can be outside the two rooms and alive are Battler and KinzoKanon.

But here is where I have a problem Renal. If that was true there was no way for Erika to get the letter. There was no way for Erika to go to the guestroom, there was no way for Erika to check every place, there was no way for Erika to fix the chainlock. Are you telling me that all of that is also just imaginary? Even if later it is confirmed in red that a physical Erika entred the room?

Now before you say that "Erika" got out from the window in the neighboring room... If that was the case Battler would have known. Since according to your reconstruction "Erika" had to be closed in a sealed room, obviously a seal must be broken for her to go out. That would have allowed Battler to use 5 people to get out of his closed room. And how stupid would be for Erika to break her own seal?

No I guess you are stuck with ghost-erika to make this work. But that doesn't match with Erika killing 5 people and Erika's body entering the room later.

Please don't tell me something idiotic like: in some cases Erika is actually a piece Erika is controlling and in some other case she's just an imaginary detective with no physical body.

Originally Posted by Renall

Battler has to use some trick as he's actively trying to defeat her. His concessions are supposed to actually work in his own favor, eliminating possible "loose" pieces so that his illusion is more complete. A card trick's not as exciting if they can't see you handling the deck.

I see no reason he can't lie to Erika.

I guess we have read a different story, because I was under the impression that Battler was quite pissed at Bern because she didn't let Erika maintain her detective privileges, and one of the detective privileges is to have an objective perspective.

Originally Posted by Renall

Prove that any retroactive change allegedly implemented by any GM in any game thus far has ever actually changed the "hard facts" of a given game, or at least done so in direct contravention of what the detective has already experienced. You cannot, because it's never happened.

Again I must ask you if we really read the same story. It was quite apparently shown that this is a viable possibility. Erika asks Battler if he wants to take back the move he just made about the letter, and Battler for a while thinks about that.
This means that it is quite possible for the GM to go back on his moves. Of course since this was something that was already presented to the detective, Battler couldn't do that without letting Erika know, that's why Erika gives her permission.

Originally Posted by Renall

This also destroys your own argument, as Erika never saw herself placing those seals, never had any opportunity, and indeed rather explicitly saw a scene of herself lamenting that the seals could not be physically placed. But there is no problem if Battler's red was strictly an informational concession. So why exactly is her authority so inviolate, if to retroactively take back her moves she has to essentially admit "that scene didn't really happen?"

The point is that you cannot show fake scenes to the detective. Now it wasn't a fake scene at all at the time. But once you go back on that move that scene obviously doesn't exist anymore. As I said before, if the GM changes something that was presented to the detective already, the detective notices. But in the case of the duct tape Erika was quite willing to accept that change.