[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki

However, this goes against the magical logic of the series, since Shannon, as Beatrice, is an Endless Witch, and not capable of producing a soul from nothing, like Maria can.

Call it a resurrection then, a "Kanon" existed sometime in the distant past.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Renall

Yeah but that's like saying "The key doesn't work in the lock; I must just be using it wrong."

Is that really reasonable? If a key doesn't fit in a lock, it's the wrong key. It might be a key to something, but not to the things we're trying to fit it into.

Now sure, you can argue "Yes, but the locks it does fit are very important." That's fine. It could even be true. But that doesn't cause the other locks we've been staring at for a couple years to cease to exist. Something has to open those, and if the "key" we have isn't fitting, jiggling it around in the lock hoping something will click rises to the level of desperation.

I think that's a great analogy. It does fit Ryuukishi's writing style, but I'd add just one thing: he's the kind of author who likes to stick other keys behind the locks. So even if a key doesn't unlock everything at once, it's possible that one of the things it does unlock becomes a key to understanding the rest of the game.

We already know that Ryuukishi has done this. If you don't understand the fact that Kinzo was already dead, I'm pretty sure that you'd never make sense of the answer. Even so, while Kinzo's death is interesting and opens many doors, it hardly brings us any closer to finding the true culprit, except by giving us a few more possible motives.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Actually, a collapsing spiral stake is even easier to make than the kind in anime.

Imagine a reel of metallic tape, tightly wound. You can closely simulate it with a reel of 35mm photographic film if you still have such a thing.

Hold the outside, push the middle out. Voila, collapsible, spiral structure.

Alright, I could maybe buy that... Battler's handled a stake before, but it was one that he pulled out of Kyrie's head, so he probably didn't touch the tip of it. However, in Jessica's case, he did see that it was driven in pretty deep. For that to work, not only would the head have to collapse, but the shaft would have to telescope as well. I guess the complicated scrollwork on the shaft could be hiding something like that...

Thing is, the stake is supposed to be pretty heavy, but if you had a complicated collapsing mechanism then the whole assembly would have to be hollow.

Originally Posted by Oliver

The problem with a collapsible stake, to me, is not how to make a collapsible object of such shape, it's how to hold it on the body.

You can do it for Jessica's back, for this it needs a sharp point that you would stick into a board that would be beneath the clothing. I can't imagine a ready way to do this for Eva's head without lots and lots of makeup.

Makeup which apparently exists in abundance. On the other hand, her eyes were open, and that's rather harder to fake. Could be similar to Kyrie's death in EP4 where the stake was just jammed into a real wound though.

Originally Posted by CainSonozaki

How bout Hideyoshis head while he was in the tub? at least as far as what was shown in the anime the showers still going

Battler didn't see that one. How do we know it wasn't the same setup as EP5? Maybe he just assumed that the stake was actually in Hideyoshi's head because of Eva's corpse and what he overheard the others saying.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Alright, I could maybe buy that... Battler's handled a stake before, but it was one that he pulled out of Kyrie's head, so he probably didn't touch the tip of it. However, in Jessica's case, he did see that it was driven in pretty deep. For that to work, not only would the head have to collapse, but the shaft would have to telescope as well. I guess the complicated scrollwork on the shaft could be hiding something like that...

Actually, only the "blade" itself needs to be hollow.
The advantage of the reel spiral is that the minimum length such a "blade" can be collapsed into is equal to the width of the tape, and tape can be rather narrow -- there's probably some mathematics to tell us how narrow it could be, but I estimate only some 3cm of the "blade" needs to be sticking out for it to be stable.

The principle was used on some early radio antennas on satellites, where it was selected because it was possible to make an extending antenna using only one simple motor. These antennas would usually be well over a meter long.

[Dr. Akagi]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Actually, only the "blade" itself needs to be hollow.
The advantage of the reel spiral is that the minimum length such a "blade" can be collapsed into is equal to the width of the tape, and tape can be rather narrow -- there's probably some mathematics to tell us how narrow it could be, but I estimate only some 3cm of the "blade" needs to be sticking out for it to be stable.

The principle was used on some early radio antennas on satellites, where it was selected because it was possible to make an extending antenna using only one simple motor. These antennas would usually be well over a meter long.

Thanks to Oliver, this forum is slowly turning into "Murder Workshop 101".

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by Dr. Akagi

Thanks to Oliver, this forum is slowly turning into "Murder Workshop 101".

Yeah, sometimes his immense enclyclopedic knowledge of Random Things That Can Assist in Muder slightly terrifies me.

[MetalGearFlaccid]

Originally Posted by Dr. Akagi

Thanks to Oliver, this forum is slowly turning into "Murder Workshop 101".

Well some of us may need this information. I for one-

Wait.
Did you hear-
...
...
FUCK, SIRENS!
I GOTTA GET THE HELL OUT OF HERE! SOMEONE HELP ME CLEAN UP THE BLOOD!

[Oliver]

That's a Random Thing That Can Assist in Faking a Murder. The resulting spiral is not terribly strong, in particular along the axis, you can't actually stab anyone with it -- it would need something like a short nail inside to hold it in a surface.

[Pika_power]

Let's look for similarities between episodes.

EP1: Kinzo burnt, Natsuhi survived FT.
EP2: Kinzo not burnt, Natsuhi and Krauss killed FT, people tell Battler about magic on the gameboard.
EP3: Kinzo burnt, Natsuhi and Krauss survived FT, FT setup similar to EP5 and EP6.
EP4: Kinzo burnt, epitaph not followed, people tell Battler about magic on the gameboard. Beatrice appears.
EP5: FT similar to EP3 and EP6 in the sense that it was likely faked.
EP6: FT confirmed fake. FT an elaborate closed room setup, until someone re-kills the victims.

[Dr. Akagi]

Originally Posted by Oliver

That's a Random Thing That Can Assist in Faking a Murder. The resulting spiral is not terribly strong, in particular along the axis, you can't actually stab anyone with it -- it would need something like a short nail inside to hold it in a surface.

See, he went and did it again. Naughty, naughty.

[Pika_power]

Originally Posted by Oliver

That's a Random Thing That Can Assist in Faking a Murder. The resulting spiral is not terribly strong, in particular along the axis, you can't actually stab anyone with it -- it would need something like a short nail inside to hold it in a surface.

Or superglue.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Pika_power

Or superglue.

Works very well if the surface it's stuck to is hard. Gluing it to clothing would fail, as it would dangle.

Might work for sticking it to the forehead, though, as long as nobody touches it, but ew, that will hurt...

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Renall

I don't see how anything that has been proposed thus far as the "key" to ep6 is in fact a key.

I don't see when anyone suggested anyone found that key.

[Oliver]

Hee, superglue!

Applying cyanoacrylate to materials made of cotton or wool (such as cotton swabs, cotton balls, and certain yarns or fabrics) results in a powerful, rapid exothermic reaction. The heat released may cause minor burns, and if enough cyanoacrylate is used, the reaction is capable of igniting the cotton product, as well as releasing irritating vapor in the form of white smoke.

Small bombs, anyone?

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Hee, superglue!



Small bombs, anyone?

Yeah... I doubt Ryuukishi has such a deep understanding of chemistry as you do Oliver. I'm still convinced the Small Bombs were just him being silly.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki

Yeah... I doubt Ryuukishi has such a deep understanding of chemistry as you do Oliver. I'm still convinced the Small Bombs were just him being silly.

I have merely looked up superglue in Wikipedia. Anyone care to see if the Japanese page mentions that as well?

[UsagiTenpura]

I think Ryukishi's sources of MO are mostly Agatha Christie novels and other mystery novels he read. That makes his arsenal actually a ridiculously huge one.

Tho by now I think figuring these out isn't that spectacular, the most important thing is "could that have been done by human means or not". Seriously it's ridiculously hard to really find a scene of crime that's impossible for a human to do. So much, that it likely wouldn't be called a crime.

[Pika_power]

Originally Posted by Oliver

I have merely looked up superglue in Wikipedia. Anyone care to see if the Japanese page mentions that as well?

Lemme try something here.

Duct tape is a polyethylene, reinforced, multi-purpose pressure sensitive tape with a soft and flexible shell and pressure sensitive adhesive.

Sorry Erika, Knox's 4th just disproved your favourite weapon.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Pika_power

Lemme try something here.

Duct tape is a polyethylene, reinforced, multi-purpose pressure sensitive tape with a soft and flexible shell and pressure sensitive adhesive.

Sorry Erika, Knox's 4th just disproved your favourite weapon.

...I don't think it was hard to understand, was it?

Regardless, duct tape has been in use at least since the war according to the same Wikipedia article.

[Kylon99]

Regarding that Key... I remember it too... but what did Ryukishi exactly say in that interview? In fact, I can't find that interview now...


Anyways, I thought the key is simply this:

Kanon has the ability to go into a room, construct a closed room and then disappear from that room such that the closed room remains intact. And his non-existence and the closed room can be stated in red by Beatrice afterwards.

Now, if you have this key you can really go back and construct most of the closed room scenarios in the episodes. I mean, we already suspect Kanon is running around killing people after he's been declared dead by the red, right?

The only question remains is in what way can he do this, without magic? EP6 suggests that Shannon has some kind of hand in this. I would say that no Shkannon theory is complete unless that theory also explains the closed rooms in EP1-4.

EDIT: Oh and this is probably the secret to closed rooms that Beatrice discovered that makes her a 'great' mystery writer. If you believe Shannon=Beatrice then... hm....