[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch

[Used Can]

I'd agree with you on that. However, along with the fact that Battler starts dealing a lot better with many things since EP3, he also starts becoming closer to Beatrice, to the point of accepting her. He was even having fun with her during Eva-Beatrice's ascension to witch, and this was before the North Wind and the Sun plot.

If we can trust R07's characterisation on Ange, and I believe we can, then she's the type of person who doesn't like Beatrice. Even in EP6 she was having a hard time trying to sympathise with her. Not to mention that, in EP4, despite her intentions, she seriously shat a big one in the story, since her actions got Beatrice killed. Sure, she gave Battler a motivation, but for all the wrong reasons, since during EP4's final duel, Battler had a completely loveless attitude, and we already know this game's theme.

Personally, I think the one who wrote EP3 onwards should have been a neutral person. This is why I have no problems in accepting Tōya/Featherine. Ange, on the other hand, would be too biased, I believe. Maybe, she'll be EP8's author, which she'll write several years later, after she's dealt and accepted the truth.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Used Can

The problem is the cousins, in general, tend to die by the final Twilights, which makes me think Yasu tries to keep them safe as much as she can. For example, Battler and Maria always die at the 10th Twilight with one exception for each during EP3 (9th Twilight for Battler and 2nd Twilight for Maria). In Jessica's case, she reached the 10th Twilight in EP1, died during the 2nd Twilight in EP2, reached the 10th Twilight again in EP3, and the exact time of her death in EP4 is unknown, but she quite possibly died rather late. Finally, George also reached the 10th Twilight in EP1, then during EP2 he died at the 6th Twilight; in EP3 he reached the 9th Twilight, and in EP4, just as with Jessica, the exact time of his death is unknown, but he, quite likely, also died rather late. (I'd also like to point out Kumasawa and Nanjo tend to die rather late as well; the only exception being Kumasawa's death in EP3's 1st Twilight. But well, this is unrelated to my current point.)

So, no matter how depressed or dead inside Yasu may be, his/her behaviour and actions regarding the cousins, especially Battler and Maria has been rather consistent. Yet, in EP5, when the Epitaph was solved - and by Battler to boot - the cousins (but Battler) got killed first.

No it actually makes sense... if the fake serial murder plot is done as a way to test the cousins, then if Battler wins all the other cousins will be "eliminated". Yeah okay it doesn't actually make sense in practical terms, but from EP5 onward is probably useless to try to understand the games in practical terms, rather they exist to provide hints and make us better understand the games themselves.

I think there is a common motif in this whole story: it makes you think about murder and deaths when the true interpretation is something different.

-The first obvious trick is the epitaph, which if interpreted literally makes you think about a lot of people dying, but it's actually a riddle about a play on words.

-There is then the EP4 that asks you to make a choice about three options each one involving "sacrifices". However it doesn't say that people must die, that's what everyone assumes, but it's probably wrong. This was a test to decide the new heir, how could be the first choice a correct answer? You can't become a heir by killing yourself, and a good heir wouldn't kill his whole family. It makes no sense. It probably has a different meaning than murder.

-Then Battler in EP4 swears to "kill" Beatrice. But Battler is not a murderer and Beatrice isn't a real person. So yet again "kill" has another meaning.

-Then there's the love trial in EP6. Even though the participants are made to kill people as part of the test, we know that only happened on a gameboard, that was more like make believe and not something real, in fact the victims were all alive before Erika killed them.
The pistols duel then is yet another metaphor.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

No it actually makes sense... if the fake serial murder plot is done as a way to test the cousins, then if Battler wins all the other cousins will be "eliminated". Yeah okay it doesn't actually make sense in practical terms, but from EP5 onward is probably useless to try to understand the games in practical terms, rather they exist to provide hints and make us better understand the games themselves.

I disagree with you. That is to say, once I didn't agree because I thought the murders (or "murders") were relevant even after ep4, but now I disagree because I'm not sure the exact specifics of any of the game board murder plots are absolutely necessary to understanding the broader mystery. That said, I still think there exists, or existed, a coherent and complete board narrative for both ep5 and ep6; however, we as readers never got to see this unfiltered board, so we are missing large chunks of ep5 and ep6 that might make better sense of what happened.

I think there is a common motif in this whole story: it makes you think about murder and deaths when the true interpretation is something different.

Very probable. I still think the Beatrice didn't commit the murders in order to... thing is still wordplay to indicate she didn't commit any murders, and I'm thoroughly unconvinced the true culprit in any way claims to be Beatrice herself. Thus, anyone we're assuming is Beatrice just isn't likely to be the person ultimately culpable, even if her actions are responsible (by giving the killer the idea or opportunity).

That said, the "True Killer" of Rokkenjima-Prime may not ever actually be portrayed as the killer in any episode. We shouldn't assume that just because a person is eliminated from contention by each story that he or she couldn't have been the actual killer, if Beatrice and the other writers had good cause to conceal that truth for some reason (or simply didn't know). The answer to "who is the true killer?" is probably a meta-fictional construct on the same level of Beato's "who am I?" Which as we know, is a stickier question than simply naming her on-board identity.

[Helmet-kun]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

-There is then the EP4 that asks you to make a choice about three options each one involving "sacrifices". However it doesn't say that people must die, that's what everyone assumes, but it's probably wrong. This was a test to decide the new heir, how could be the first choice a correct answer? You can't become a heir by killing yourself, and a good heir wouldn't kill his whole family.

Which leaves the second choice, kill that special someone.

...New Crack theory:

1st Heir (Unknown person X) offed himself after realizing he was basically screwed with what little of the Ushiromiya family had left.

2nd heir (Kinzo)'s wife makes the decision for him and kills Beato-1 in a fit of jealousy and rage. Wife lets Kinzo know before she dies, and Kinzo is really grieving for Beato-1.

3rd heir (Yasu(?)) lets (which technically counts as killing them) the entire family die in a massive explosion.

Hence the whole trial isn't meant to actually pick a heir, it's more of a 'which heir are you?' kind of thing.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

No it actually makes sense... if the fake serial murder plot is done as a way to test the cousins, then if Battler wins all the other cousins will be "eliminated". Yeah okay it doesn't actually make sense in practical terms, but from EP5 onward is probably useless to try to understand the games in practical terms, rather they exist to provide hints and make us better understand the games themselves.

The problem is, we've already seen the Love Trial during EP6, and none of the cousins died as a result of it. The only ones who disappeared were the furniture.

Personally, I still see this game as a roulette, with Battler as the winning combination of colour and number, whereas George and Jessica can be seen as safe bets, or maybe even losing numbers, but Yasu is willing to accept any result, and move on with it.

But, anyway, in EP5, Battler didn't really win anything. Even if he solved the Epitaph, the murders still continued (and Beatrice had promised they'd stop), and I think we can assume the bomb still exploded. So, I think we can assume either: 1. Solving the Epitaph is not enough, 2. Someone else has a hand at this.

[Dr. Akagi]

Originally Posted by Renall

I still think the Beatrice didn't commit the murders in order to... thing is still wordplay to indicate she didn't commit any murders, and I'm thoroughly unconvinced the true culprit in any way claims to be Beatrice herself. Thus, anyone we're assuming is Beatrice just isn't likely to be the person ultimately culpable, even if her actions are responsible (by giving the killer the idea or opportunity).

I so agree with you on that one. It's exactly the same as Kanon's "impossible death" scenario from Ep1. It just can't be any other way.

[chounokoe]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

-There is then the EP4 that asks you to make a choice about three options each one involving "sacrifices". However it doesn't say that people must die, that's what everyone assumes, but it's probably wrong. This was a test to decide the new heir, how could be the first choice a correct answer? You can't become a heir by killing yourself, and a good heir wouldn't kill his whole family. It makes no sense. It probably has a different meaning than murder.

That one actually does make sense now that we have more clarity about Kinzo's past.
Assuming the right answer is "To kill 'beloved person X'", if there even is one and it wasn't an answer like "I don't want to be heir in the first place!", then we would circle back to what Kinzo did. He basically sacrificed Beatrice Castiglioni in order to become family head.
He could have run away and throw everything away, which would have basically meant to kill 'Ushiromiya Kinzo', because as he himself said, he existed only as a tool for the elders to ensure the prosperity of the house of Ushiromiya.
He could have acted out against the family, divorce his wife and bring Beatrice into the family, which would have created chaos und basically destroyed the Ushiromiyas, especially their reputation (a family head who acts on emotions?!). That would be the option of killing his family, refusing to serve them in a way fit for a family head.
The only way to really become a leader is by sacrificing that which you love. Kinzo did it and became a fine family head, but also a terrible human being.

[Used Can]

Did he actually do it for the Ushiromiyas, though? I mean, the Ushiromiyas were supposed to have several branches, yet, the only one we've seen is Kinzo's. What happened to the rest? I mean, by 1998, after Eva's death, Ange is supposed to be the only Ushiromiya left... wut?

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by chounokoe

That one actually does make sense now that we have more clarity about Kinzo's past.
Assuming the right answer is "To kill 'beloved person X'", if there even is one and it wasn't an answer like "I don't want to be heir in the first place!", then we would circle back to what Kinzo did. He basically sacrificed Beatrice Castiglioni in order to become family head.
He could have run away and throw everything away, which would have basically meant to kill 'Ushiromiya Kinzo', because as he himself said, he existed only as a tool for the elders to ensure the prosperity of the house of Ushiromiya.
He could have acted out against the family, divorce his wife and bring Beatrice into the family, which would have created chaos und basically destroyed the Ushiromiyas, especially their reputation (a family head who acts on emotions?!). That would be the option of killing his family, refusing to serve them in a way fit for a family head.
The only way to really become a leader is by sacrificing that which you love. Kinzo did it and became a fine family head, but also a terrible human being.

But if he "killed" himself the way you are suggesting, he would loose both his position as the heir and his family. That test was supposed to let you save two by sacrificing one...

[chounokoe]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

But if he "killed" himself the way you are suggesting, he would loose both his position as the heir and his family. That test was supposed to let you save two by sacrificing one...

That's what I wanted to say, sorry if that didn't become clear (it's too early/late to think foreign ^^°)...

The choice is 'sacrificing yourself', 'sacrificing the most loved one' or 'sacrificing all who stand in the way'.
Kinzo chose to sacrifice the loved one and became the family head, by deciding to hide away Beatrice and be the family head for his own well-being and because he was too scared of consequences.

He could have also run away (sacrificing himself), which would have probably gained him Beatrice and the Ushiromiyas could have chosen another heir.
Or he could have oposed the rules of the Ushiromiya and kick his current wife out in favour of Beatrice (sacrificing his family), which would have probably helped him keep being family head and would have gotten him Beatrice.
Still both ways would have ended up bad for Kinzo, just as much as his real decision did...so I'm tempted to think that the solution to the test is a clichéd 'I choose none of such nonsense!!'

[Renall]

Wouldn't that mean both George and Jessica gave the right answer? Their "official" answers notwithstanding, as it was just an excuse to lure Ronove and Gaap into complacency.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by chounokoe

so I'm tempted to think that the solution to the test is a clichéd 'I choose none of such nonsense!!'

That's what Jessica and George ended up choosing in the end, though.

Personally, I don't think the focus is actually on the choices, but on the act of choosing. If we draw a parallel with the Love Duel in EP6 there's one similarity, and that is one question: "How far are you willing to go in order to attain something?" Whether it's love, or the family headship the price is basically doing something that is irreversible, much like murder.

If we could draw other parallels:
- George doesn't need much incentive. If the chance is there he'll aim for the top price - i.e. the headship and the chick.
- Jessica is quite lukewarm on her choice, she wants to boy, but she's not really willing to go as far as to make a big sacrifice, so she goes the middle road. All the same, in EP6 we're told that if she's in the proper mood, or if she's given the proper stimulation (as in, she's no longer her usual self), then she can go as far as she needs to get what she wants.
- Battler is rather cryptic. On EP4, he basically gave no answer. Even if he chose Beatrice, at that point he had no feelings for her and he wrote her name purely out of spite. In EP6 it was rather similar, since the one he killed was supposedly himself, yet we never got to see him do anything.

[LyricalAura]

What about Maria, who somehow actually passed the test? Based on her portrayed mindset in EP4, it seems pretty likely that she'd choose to sacrifice her mother. I'm not sure what that would mean in her case, but maybe fantasy!Kinzo was impressed with her because she made the same choice he did?

By the way, somehow the idea of "sacrificing yourself = abandoning the headship" doesn't seem quite right. Kinzo said the actual choices don't matter, so how could you gain the headship by choosing to throw away the headship?

[Jan-Poo]

I think Kinzo was impressed by Maria probably because she gave a quick and sure answer. But in truth Kinzo should have realized that Maria did so out of naivety rather than determination.

I'm not really sure what she answered, though. She could have said anything imho.

The first because she explained that by being the 1 kid bullied, the other 19 kids were spared and that was a good thing.

The second because in that very same episode she fantasized about killing her mother over and over, plus she probably think she can revive whenever she wants.

The third because she believes that in the end everyone will be revived, so by killing "everyone else" according to the epitaph Beatrice will revive, the door to the golden land will open, everyone happy, and so on.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

By the way, somehow the idea of "sacrificing yourself = abandoning the headship" doesn't seem quite right. Kinzo said the actual choices don't matter, so how could you gain the headship by choosing to throw away the headship?

Easy enough: It's forced on you. Kinzo just wanted to see who had the conviction, they weren't going to get a choice. After all, he didn't choose the headship either.

[Leafsnail]

I thought it was implied Kinzo choose the third option (metaphorically, I guess).

I mean, he's still alive, and wouldn't kill Beatrice. He mysteriously seems to have no family other than his children and grandchildren.

(Not implying Kinzo actually killed anyone, just that that was the "choice" he made).

[Used Can]

I'm also wondering if Beatrice Castiglioni was fine with being Kinzo's mistress. I don't remember him telling her about his own marital status.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

I thought it was implied Kinzo choose the third option (metaphorically, I guess).

I mean, he's still alive, and wouldn't kill Beatrice. He mysteriously seems to have no family other than his children and grandchildren.

(Not implying Kinzo actually killed anyone, just that that was the "choice" he made).

It's not implied. Gaap states he chose the same choice as George as if it's a well known fact (at least to her). However she calls him Goldsmith instead of Kinzo.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

-There is then the EP4 that asks you to make a choice about three options each one involving "sacrifices". However it doesn't say that people must die, that's what everyone assumes, but it's probably wrong. This was a test to decide the new heir, how could be the first choice a correct answer? You can't become a heir by killing yourself, and a good heir wouldn't kill his whole family. It makes no sense. It probably has a different meaning than murder.

It's probably enough to show you were willing to kill to get what you want. In other words if the person who gave the test saw you were willing to do it that was enough. Kinzo states the test is about showing your conviction it doesn't have to have logic to it or be a metaphor.

Kinzo may be the type of person who believes you're not really living if you don't have something to risk your life for.

-Then Battler in EP4 swears to "kill" Beatrice. But Battler is not a murderer and Beatrice isn't a real person. So yet again "kill" has another meaning.

The red states he hasn't murdered anyone in the games we've seen as of episode 5. Not that he could never be a murderer at all. If there is a situation where he survives it may involve him having to kill Beatrice (the culprit) in that one game (EP 8 probably) or maybe he's swearing to kill as revenge in 1998. He's just never the main culprit or an accomplice by this logic.

Not that I want Battler to do that I just think it's one possibility. Kinzo states in episode 4 that that's a possible solution after solving the epitaph doesn't work.

[Renall]

If Beatrice is a fictional character, he can "kill" her without being a murderer rather easily.

One could argue this already happens in ep7.