(L) Kaichou wa Maid-sama [Manga]

[UPR]

i wouldnt mind seeing a rival for misaki i mean Usui has shown time and time again the devotion he has to her its time he wee see it the other way around plus getting to see Misaki flustered by seeing another girl with him will be awesome

[Sol Falling]

I was agreeing with the person who posted immediately above me. I don't actually see any 'rivals' or 'reverse harem' anyway; Hinata is the only other male who's been treated remotely seriously and his story was practically over before it started. The 'interestingness' of a hypothetical female rival would be similarly non-existent. It's not like she would even remotely stand a chance.

As for the manga being boring, are you kidding me? We are on the verge of Misaki's actual confession! Are you actually looking for random angst and miscommunication hijinks over this? If you guys want to see Misaki acting jealous, go back and read Maria's introductory chapter. That was actually one of the worst chapters IMO btw, simply waaay too angsty and dark feeling. The thing is, y'know, Misaki is already feeling under enormous pressure. She knows she can't really compare to Usui's family's wealth, his natural ability, his upper-class background. She doesn't need a rival to bring all those fears and uncertainties up. Misaki is already terrified of losing him, and the Walkers already more than represent a force powerful enough to do that by themselves. As such, a female rival would bring literally nothing to the table. It would be pointless IMO. I would really much much rather see the manga continue developing the way it has been up to now.

And hey, if 'devotion' is what you're looking for, guess what Misaki was practically overflowing with in this latest chapter? No looming 'other woman' in sight. :P

[UPR]

well what sol is accurate cant disagree with it really

[Darknemo2000]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

I was agreeing with the person who posted immediately above me. I don't actually see any 'rivals' or 'reverse harem' anyway; Hinata is the only other male who's been treated remotely seriously and his story was practically over before it started. The 'interestingness' of a hypothetical female rival would be similarly non-existent. It's not like she would even remotely stand a chance.

Maria introductionary chapter doesnt work since it was over before it even could get going. Misaki needs a rival to make it more realistic. Usui is what a perfect bishie in existence and Misaki still doenst have any female rival yet. How more unrealistic it can be?

On the other hand we have the baka trio (yes comedy relief but still bishies fanservice never the less), Aoi (I think he is treated pretty seriously), Hinata, Tooru (evil guy with evil purposes but again he has his eyes laid on Misaki) and even Maria going after misaki.

Certainly it is a reverse harem.

I am not asking a serious competition since it is obvious who is going to win, but is a girl, rival for Misaki popping out too much to ask, considering that all we get is just more and more bishies.

Its just tiring. Too tiring and it becomes boring. Yeah confession blah blah blah, not interesting enough still considering that the tune is still the same and the only characters that will pop out either positive or negative will be males, one way or another interested in Misaki.

Thats what I mean with boring. Change the CD once in a while instead of playing the same tune over and over again.

Why a brother? Why not a ister isntead? More so why a brother who is hot and not married thus taken or something? Instead oits just another smoke hot bishie, free to bevcome another Usui's rival in the future. And yet you did not complain when it is just another ckliche fanservice move by the author and totally unoriginal.

Yet you take offense when someone sugges a girl rival placed. I really cant understand your thinking, cause for me change if scenery once in a while is better than repeating same cliche road that ends up introducing just more and more bishies.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

Maria introductionary chapter doesnt work since it was over before it even could get going. Misaki needs a rival to make it more realistic. Usui is what a perfect bishie in existence and Misaki still doenst have any female rival yet. How more unrealistic it can be?

On the other hand we have the baka trio (yes comedy relief but still bishies fanservice never the less), Aoi (I think he is treated pretty seriously), Hinata, Tooru (evil guy with evil purposes but again he has his eyes laid on Misaki) and even Maria going after misaki.

This discussion is getting tiresome, but can you honestly say all these other character's 'feelings' are treated any more seriously than those of random fangirls or ladies that try to pick Usui up on the streets? You say Usui's bishieness is being treated unrealistically, but another 4 or 5 of those showed up in 56. The only reason why none of these girls is more persistent is because Usui blows all of them off in the coldest way possible. Are you looking for a masochist fangirl who gets off on Usui increasingly forcefully ignoring and rejecting her?

Certainly it is a reverse harem.

To go over this again briefly, neither the three idiots' feelings nor Aoi's towards Misaki are actually romantic! Harem? Hardly. Also, if you hadn't noticed, Tora's interest/involvement with the plot has been based solely on Usui since the end of the second chapter he ever showed up in.

Here's a question: is Maria going after Misaki fanservice for the guys or for the girls? Do you think, had Maria actually gone after Usui, she would have lasted even this long as a relevant character?

I am not asking a serious competition since it is obvious who is going to win, but is a girl, rival for Misaki popping out too much to ask, considering that all we get is just more and more bishies.

Its just tiring. Too tiring and it becomes boring. Yeah confession blah blah blah, not interesting enough still considering that the tune is still the same and the only characters that will pop out either positive or negative will be males, one way or another interested in Misaki.

Thats what I mean with boring. Change the CD once in a while instead of playing the same tune over and over again.

Why a brother? Why not a ister isntead? More so why a brother who is hot and not married thus taken or something? Instead oits just another smoke hot bishie, free to bevcome another Usui's rival in the future. And yet you did not complain when it is just another ckliche fanservice move by the author and totally unoriginal.

Yet you take offense when someone sugges a girl rival placed. I really cant understand your thinking, cause for me change if scenery once in a while is better than repeating same cliche road that ends up introducing just more and more bishies.

So you are actually predicting Gerard to become interested in Misaki? Despite the sheer contempt they have already shown for her on the basis of her class and their social responsibilities? Who is being 'unrealistic' here? Gerard is similar to Usui precisely because he serves as a threat that people of Misaki's station are unsuitable for someone like Usui. If you think he's suddenly gonna start chasing after her, you're delusional.

Yeah, there are a lot of bishies in this manga. Go look at Honoka, Suzuna, Eriko (my personal favourites), or the rest of Misaki's friends and the Maid Latte characters or something. This is a shoujo manga, but that doesn't mean that every random bishie that shows up is an addition to 'Misaki's harem'. For pretty much any female reader, the fanservice comes almost entirely from Usui himself. If you can't see past the bishie's 'bishieness' into their actual characterization, it is your own fault.

[Darknemo2000]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

This discussion is getting tiresome, but can you honestly say all these other character's 'feelings' are treated any more seriously than those of random fangirls or ladies that try to pick Usui up on the streets? You say Usui's bishieness is being treated unrealistically, but another 4 or 5 of those showed up in 56. The only reason why none of these girls is more persistent is because Usui blows all of them off in the coldest way possible. Are you looking for a masochist fangirl who gets off on Usui increasingly forcefully ignoring and rejecting her?

No. What am I interested us Misaki's reaction rather than Usui, whose reaction is more or less clear. You can be relevant even without having the hero loving you. look at Hinata. Misaki doenst like him at all and he is relevant, Same way can be with the rival girl.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

To go over this again briefly, neither the three idiots' feelings nor Aoi's towards Misaki are actually romantic! Harem? Hardly. Also, if you hadn't noticed, Tora's interest/involvement with the plot has been based solely on Usui since the end of the second chapter he ever showed up in.

Even for the wrong reasons Tora is interested in Misaki. How a times we had this cliche in shoujo manga - the evil guy tries to take the girl away not because of love but because of dislike to the main guy. Even for the wrong reasons it still works just the same.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Here's a question: is Maria going after Misaki fanservice for the guys or for the girls? Do you think, had Maria actually gone after Usui, she would have lasted even this long as a relevant character?

Yes she would and probably be more relevant character still than she currently is. As she would give something that has a never been given in this manga - a rival for Misaki.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

So you are actually predicting Gerard to become interested in Misaki? Despite the sheer contempt they have already shown for her on the basis of her class and their social responsibilities? Who is being 'unrealistic' here? Gerard is similar to Usui precisely because he serves as a threat that people of Misaki's station are unsuitable for someone like Usui. If you think he's suddenly gonna start chasing after her, you're delusional.

Its shoujo. It happens all the time. If you do not believe then you haven't read shoujo's. Contempt? That is the case with those bishies show the heroine cold shoulder and then she does something admirable and they start blushing around. It happens all the freaking time in the shoujo's.

Brother will be the same or become another Tora like figure who aims for Misaki because of Usui, and it still works just the same as real romance since heroine still gets her attention from bishie and is attempted to be taken away.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Yeah, there are a lot of bishies in this manga. Go look at Honoka, Suzuna, Eriko (my personal favourites), or the rest of Misaki's friends and the Maid Latte characters or something. This is a shoujo manga, but that doesn't mean that every random bishie that shows up is an addition to 'Misaki's harem'. For pretty much any female reader, the fanservice comes almost entirely from Usui himself. If you can't see past the bishie's 'bishieness' into their actual characterization, it is your own fault.

The girls in the story have no importance what so ever. Its nearly impossible to recall their names even due to little amount they had.

And dont get mistaken while Usui is the main source the female readers still want another hot bishie join the war for the Misaki so that they can go "Waaaaaah, what will happen now?". Not all like Usui after all.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

No. What am I interested us Misaki's reaction rather than Usui, whose reaction is more or less clear. You can be relevant even without having the hero loving you. look at Hinata. Misaki doenst like him at all and he is relevant, Same way can be with the rival girl.

Hinata is hardly relevant as a 'rival'. He is pretty much a random friend now, a powered up version of the three idiots. A prospective female rival for Usui wouldn't even receive that bare minimum of kindness and respect Misaki gives Hinata; it'd be ugly.

Misaki's reaction wouldn't be anything (again, just go back to the Maria chapter, and extrapolate from there). She is already insecure about Usui, and finds it difficult to be honest about her feelings; there is no way she would actually do anything about it. It is up to Usui to reject other women, just like it was up to Misaki to reject Hinata. Beyond maybe a final "Sorry, but I love him; I can't give Usui to you" (providing the rival isn't a bitch) Misaki's interactions with a female rival would be practically non-existant.

Even for the wrong reasons Tora is interested in Misaki. How a times we had this cliche in shoujo manga - the evil guy tries to take the girl away not because of love but because of dislike to the main guy. Even for the wrong reasons it still works just the same.

Tora never seriously tried to pursue Misaki. The first time was to put her down and see her act like a dog, the second time was to try to make her think/realize that she was not and would never be up to the Usui's level, and convince her to give up. There was never any actual intent on Tora's part to be in a relationship with her, ever; again, you can see his clear contempt for her in the way that he speaks.

Yes she would and probably be more relevant character still than she currently is. As she would give something that has a never been given in this manga - a rival for Misaki.

How so? Maria still manages to be around causing trouble because Misaki can't effectively learn to blow her off--her protective instincts of other females get in the way. Usui would have no such issues, and Maria would have to run crying back to the Walkers in abject failure.

Its shoujo. It happens all the time. If you do not believe then you haven't read shoujo's. Contempt? That is the case with those bishies show the heroine cold shoulder and then she does something admirable and they start blushing around. It happens all the freaking time in the shoujo's.

This is why Maid-sama is not your typical shoujo. None of that idealistic 'love and honesty conquer all' bullshit is present here. The assholes are assholes, none of them ever change their fundamental values. No matter how 'admirable' Misaki might be, the fact is that Gerard is entrenched in a whole other world, where even if he could learn to appreciate Misaki's 'homely commoner' qualities, it would be a public disgrace to even remotely be associated with her. Misaki isn't gonna change the world in this manga, she's gonna achieve personal happiness, and the closest Gerard will ever get to accepting her will be with (the obscure and illegitimate) Usui, never himself.

Brother will be the same or become another Tora like figure who aims for Misaki because of Usui, and it still works just the same as real romance since heroine still gets her attention from bishie and is attempted to be taken away.

Gerard's interactions with Misaki will consist of trolling and put-downs, just like Tora's were at first. Neither he nor Tora will ever consider actually being with Misaki, no matter the reason, because Misaki is the stain they are trying to get off Usui--it would be utterly pointless to attempt to transfer that stain onto themselves.

The girls in the story have no importance what so ever. Its nearly impossible to recall their names even due to little amount they had.

And dont get mistaken while Usui is the main source the female readers still want another hot bishie join the war for the Misaki so that they can go "Waaaaaah, what will happen now?". Not all like Usui after all.

What are you talking about? The girls get a ton more panel time than any of the guys you can think of, and they provide a great deal of the heart of the series. If you're gonna call only Usui's family issues 'important' or 'plot relevant' then what would that make the first 40 chapters of the series?

There ain't no real war for Misaki in this manga, as I said earlier Hinata's story was practically over before it started (he lasted, what? One chapter before being utterly shown up by Usui as a man?). No one even comes close to Usui on the level of bishie perfection, other bishies are pretty much just stage props in order to see Usui get all protective and jealous. It is a one-man harem, and a female rival for Misaki wouldn't do remotely as well for bringing out Misaki's charm points, who (as I mentioned earlier) is steadily getting cuter and cuter all by herself.

[Darknemo2000]

The girls are more irrelevant characters than the guys frankly, as guys play much more important and prominent roles in the manga. And most of them with their focus set for one or the other reason towrads Misaki. What I am asking to have at least another girl to do so for Usui. Change the tune with this Bishie fixed on Misaki for once.

And I do not see those emotions from Misaki you talk about - insecuritie is based on Usui and her relationship rather to someone else and those are two completely different feelings. Its like saying hating someone and self-hatred is the same, yet they are now. And i want that because it would be something new (Maria doesn't cut in way too short and not even real). Whatever is the case Tooru or Gerrard still show plenty of attention towards her and I think it has a potential to add another shoujo cliche along the way - the gerard start aiming for Misaki for real himself. Yes I strongly believe that.

This is why Maid-sama is not your typical shoujo.

Lol you made me lol real hard. Kaichou wa maid some is filled with cliches and typical shoujo events. And it is depending on what you call typical shoujo -as again when you have a strong female lead then it changes the whole feeling of the manga, but at the same time while strong heroine changes a bit it still drives the tipical strong heroine typical manga.

This manga is so filled with typical shoujo cliches. The inablity to break from strong heroine love cliches is what makes everyone to compare it to special A so much.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

The girls are more irrelevant characters than the guys frankly, as guys play much more important and prominent roles in the manga. And most of them with their focus set for one or the other reason towrads Misaki. What I am asking to have at least another girl to do so for Usui. Change the tune with this Bishie fixed on Misaki for once.

But you know, in fact the focus of most of these guys is towards Usui, not Misaki. Tora, Gerard, Cedric. Even Maria's real reason for being at Seika is to convince Usui to go to Miyabigaoka/return to the Walker's, not to go after Misaki. Where is the harem?

A character's involvement in the plot, regardless of gender, does not automatically have to reduce to attraction to either Usui or Misaki. If you want more plot-important female characters, Maria is one, and more may show up in the future. Just like neither Tora, Gerard, or Cedric are remotely romantically interested in Misaki however, neither do female characters have to be 'rivals' for Usui.

And I do not see those emotions from Misaki you talk about - insecuritie is based on Usui and her relationship rather to someone else and those are two completely different feelings. Its like saying hating someone and self-hatred is the same, yet they are now. And i want that because it would be something new (Maria doesn't cut in way too short and not even real). Whatever is the case Tooru or Gerrard still show plenty of attention towards her and I think it has a potential to add another shoujo cliche along the way - the gerard start aiming for Misaki for real himself. Yes I strongly believe that.

Those feelings are precisely what was reflected by the chapter with Maria though, even if it was 'too short and not real'. The point is that Misaki thought it was real, so they'd be a perfectly accurate representation of what you're talking about. Say, like we discussed hypothetically earlier, Maria actually was after Usui. Then, Misaki's reaction would both be long term and real. Does that sound better than what we got?

As far as the Gerard thing, we'll just have to wait and see. I'll have you eat your words about Maid-sama being cliche if you're wrong, though.

Lol you made me lol real hard. Kaichou wa maid some is filled with cliches and typical shoujo events. And it is depending on what you call typical shoujo -as again when you have a strong female lead then it changes the whole feeling of the manga, but at the same time while strong heroine changes a bit it still drives the tipical strong heroine typical manga.

This manga is so filled with typical shoujo cliches. The inablity to break from strong heroine love cliches is what makes everyone to compare it to special A so much.

I haven't been seeing all that many comparisons to Special A lately, actually. But you will have to provide some examples of these 'shoujo cliches', really. Do most shoujo's feature the lead heroine working at an otaku maid cafe? Do most shoujo's feature the extremely physically capable lead heroine nearly overpowered and raped? Do most shoujo's feature the amazingly manly and sensual male protagonist willingly kissing another guy? Do most shoujos have a twisted crossdresser, a bombshell lesbian, as supporting characters? Do most shoujos have an honest to goodness genuine love triangle over in as little as six chapters? Etc. etc. Maid-sama is an outstanding shoujo manga, not a cliche one. It might deal with common shoujo themes (i.e. romance, amazingly hot bishies) but the execution is beyond praiseworthy.

[Darknemo2000]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

But you know, in fact the focus of most of these guys is towards Usui, not Misaki. Tora, Gerard, Cedric. Even Maria's real reason for being at Seika is to convince Usui to go to Miyabigaoka/return to the Walker's, not to go after Misaki. Where is the harem?

Harem lies in focus on the character. Otherwise you will have to call such manga's like Love hina not harems at all because it is obvious who is in the harem leads eye from the beginning of the manga and other girls do not really stand a chance. And not even all of them have genuine romantic interest (Kitsune).

Yet it is still called a harem just as the Kaichou wa Maid-same is a reverse harem as the heroine is surrounded by bishies who show either genuine romance interest or the interest in general (which in many cases feels as a simulacrum of the romance interest).

Those feelings are precisely what was reflected by the chapter with Maria though, even if it was 'too short and not real'. The point is that Misaki thought it was real, so they'd be a perfectly accurate representation of what you're talking about. Say, like we discussed hypothetically earlier, Maria actually was after Usui. Then, Misaki's reaction would both be long term and real. Does that sound better than what we got?

Yes, because long term drama always play better than simple misunderstandings that lasts for 5 pages or so.

I haven't been seeing all that many comparisons to Special A lately, actually. But you will have to provide some examples of these 'shoujo cliches', really. Do most shoujo's feature the lead heroine working at an otaku maid cafe? Do most shoujo's feature the extremely physically capable lead heroine nearly overpowered and raped? Do most shoujo's feature the amazingly manly and sensual male protagonist willingly kissing another guy? Do most shoujos have a twisted crossdresser, a bombshell lesbian, as supporting characters? Do most shoujos have an honest to goodness genuine love triangle over in as little as six chapters? Etc. etc. Maid-sama is an outstanding shoujo manga, not a cliche one. It might deal with common shoujo themes (i.e. romance, amazingly hot bishies) but the execution is beyond praiseworthy.

Shoujo maid cosplay manga's? Ameiro Kouchakan Kandan, Break Coffee, Cafe Minamiaoyama Kottou Toori, Cafe de Kimagure Beach, Bishounen no Oheya, Bocchama wa Ijiwaru, Dakedo Happy Paradise, Forbidden Kiss, I Will Be Cinderella, Spicy Fever, Tabecha Dame etc.

There are plenty of shoujo's playing the maid part. Is it exactly an otaku cafe shop? Well not all of them, just some, but again if you look through such detailed view then you would have to say that all of shoujo manga's are original,. like for example which manga has a short haired heroine as a maid or heroine who has bad habbit and has her hair deyed (or if there are plenty of those add othe rfeatures until they become original) etc. and so on, you can go into details till every freaking manga out there becomes original.

However what I am talking about the general theme of using the maid cosplay in modern world (non-historical setting) and we have plenty of that.

We also have plenty of manga's with All Boys School Turned Co-ed, with an ugly childhood friend in childhood getting turned into smoking bishioe now. You just extract the detailed line and try to present it as an original but it is doomed to fail cause using this line of thought you can make every single shoujo out there original.

Sadly as far as the general ideas go not dwelling too much into details to construct the fake 'originality' you would see that Kaichou wa maid-sama is riding plenty of cliches and hasnt really created all that much original way and still cannot break away from being compared to Special A because of that as there rare more general points binding them together than setting them apart

Execution is good, there is no point in arguing with that, from all the cliches Maid-same is one of the best in making those cliches work, yet it still doesnt change the fact that this manga is still spinning in a wheel of clihes.

[Bonta Kun]

Just my 2 pennies but I'm gonna have to go with Darknemo here on Maid-sama being somewhat a "cliche shoujo"
Sure enough I do think this series is done very well but it still has it's cliches, just they are done very well(for me anyway) they don't come across as bad in anyway.
I do think it's still great series none the less.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

Harem lies in focus on the character. Otherwise you will have to call such manga's like Love hina not harems at all because it is obvious who is in the harem leads eye from the beginning of the manga and other girls do not really stand a chance. And not even all of them have genuine romantic interest (Kitsune).

Yet it is still called a harem just as the Kaichou wa Maid-same is a reverse harem as the heroine is surrounded by bishies who show either genuine romance interest or the interest in general (which in many cases feels as a simulacrum of the romance interest).

No, the "harem" genre is defined when the focus or existence of a large number of characters is to serve as romantic gratification for the main character. I.e., a harem occurs when you get a sense of "Wow, there are so many (unattached, romantically available) hot guys/girls around and/or after me". In Maid-sama's case, there is no hint of this; aside from Usui, Misaki never even deals with two bishies at once and (again, aside from Usui) there is only one single other male character with any sustained romantic interest in her.

Yes, because long term drama always play better than simple misunderstandings that lasts for 5 pages or so.

Long term drama which didn't exist/the author didn't intend to write? The author clearly has her own storyline in mind, a more than decent one too; you'd prefer for her to throw all that out just to satisfy your demands for 'long term drama' over a love rival?

Shoujo maid cosplay manga's? Ameiro Kouchakan Kandan, Break Coffee, Cafe Minamiaoyama Kottou Toori, Cafe de Kimagure Beach, Bishounen no Oheya, Bocchama wa Ijiwaru, Dakedo Happy Paradise, Forbidden Kiss, I Will Be Cinderella, Spicy Fever, Tabecha Dame etc.

There are plenty of shoujo's playing the maid part. Is it exactly an otaku cafe shop? Well not all of them, just some, but again if you look through such detailed view then you would have to say that all of shoujo manga's are original,. like for example which manga has a short haired heroine as a maid or heroine who has bad habbit and has her hair deyed (or if there are plenty of those add othe rfeatures until they become original) etc. and so on, you can go into details till every freaking manga out there becomes original.

However what I am talking about the general theme of using the maid cosplay in modern world (non-historical setting) and we have plenty of that.

Let's be clear here. Maid-sama is an outstanding shoujo. Of course that means it is still a shoujo. What we are talking about are what you called "typical shoujo events", not "typical shoujo themes/premises". If you can't stand shoujo themes/premises, you shouldn't be reading shoujo in the first place, because all shoujos pretty much have them, and thus they would all be the same to you anyway. When we talk about "typical shoujo events", we are talking specifically about the execution of the story, the way it deals with its shoujo themes, because within the context of its genre that is the determiner of whether it is a mediocre or outstanding one.

So a lot of shoujos are Maid manga. Like I said, a lot of shoujos are also romance manga, a lot of shoujos have hot bishies, a lot of shoujos have a heroine from a poor background, etc. The significance of Misaki working at an otaku maid cafe in this story lies in Misaki's development from somebody completely divorced from the otaku world, to someone who takes pride in the environment of peace and gentleness they can provide for their customers, to now struggling to prove the worth and sincerity of her devotion at the maid cafe against the principles of real butlers and maids.

Of the mangas you listed, many may be about real maids (heroines serving as actual maids to an actual master for whatever reason). A fewer number may indeed be about maid cafes. However, do any of them make a genuine conflict out of the disparity between the principles of service of real maids and butlers versus the 'pretend', fetishism motivated gratification of maid cafes? At the very least, can you say it is 'typical' of maid mangas to treat their theme with this degree of significance/thoughtfulness?

We also have plenty of manga's with All Boys School Turned Co-ed, with an ugly childhood friend in childhood getting turned into smoking bishioe now. You just extract the detailed line and try to present it as an original but it is doomed to fail cause using this line of thought you can make every single shoujo out there original.

Sadly as far as the general ideas go not dwelling too much into details to construct the fake 'originality' you would see that Kaichou wa maid-sama is riding plenty of cliches and hasnt really created all that much original way and still cannot break away from being compared to Special A because of that as there rare more general points binding them together than setting them apart

Execution is good, there is no point in arguing with that, from all the cliches Maid-same is one of the best in making those cliches work, yet it still doesnt change the fact that this manga is still spinning in a wheel of clihes.

My claims towards Maid-sama have not been about whether or not it is "original". My claims towards Maid-sama are about whether or not it is good, and that means I am talking about whether the developments in the story proceed in a 'cliched' or 'interesting' manner.

Cliche shoujo events are things like asshole jerkwad villains falling for a heroine's 'goodness', main love interests being rich and powerful heirs to multi-million dollar corporations, the female protagonist being weak while the male is simply invincibly good at everything, one-dimensional bitchy female rivals demeaning the heroine based on money and social status, prolonged 'dramatic' love triangles persisting solely due to the heroine's indecisiveness, the heroine being helplessly preyed upon by assholes with perverted intentions, the main couple taking forever to get together due to the heroine's inability to trust and have self-confidence, etc. etc. Oh yeah, love interests having a secret fiance is also one of these. Maid-sama avoids cliches--The superhumanly perfect male protagonist can get injured and goes to the hospital; The first 'bitchy female love rival' turns out to be a lonely boy and a crossdresser; The evil hypnotist villain turns out to be timid and afraid of women; The childhood friend love triangle ends with quick development in brutal, heartbreaking defeat; The jerkwad asshole band member becomes genuinely interested in the girl who loves him; The main couple gets together naturally without any stalling or questioning of feelings; The male character's familial background is one of estrangement and venomous secrecy; The second bitchy female love rival turns out to be a terrifyingly helpless lesbian; The rich jerkwad asshole villain is shown troubled by his own helplessness; The silent stalker who serves the male protagonist's brother hates the heroine because of his own butlerhood. Etc. etc. Maid-sama never gets bogged down by the usual shoujo contrivances. It doesn't introduce shallow female rivals or love triangles for the sake of stalling or pointless drama; it isn't deluded about the reality of what money and status mean in this world. Maid-sama is a romance that knows where its going first and foremost, so it is continually advancing that storyline without any breaks or hesitation, and in doing so it has its characters bear the consequences for their wishes and decisions in the most straightforward way possible.

[Darknemo2000]

Lol so you are saying that the majority of the herams are not harems then. Too bad since they are considered harems they are still harems even though one particular individual tries hard to say no by using 'romantic gratification' but again there is no romantic gratification in Keitarou and Love Hina (one of the most popular harem manga's) since Keitarou also from the very beginning has his eyes set on Naru. More important all other scenes with other girls happen with him being with them alone menaing in romance development important scene he also never ha sto deal with two bishoujo's at the same time as well.

Frankly it would be harder to find a harem with your descrition because the term 'romantic gratification' is very abstract and not dealing with two characters at once is very questionable because in majority of harems the main heroes/heroines also not deal with more than one or at best two characters at once as long as we do not talk about comedy. Because all the development scenes happen with that particular guy or girl of the harem without others present.

Obviously Sol Falling, it is pointless to argue with you because you just cannot take these bottle-bottom thick fan glasses of yours.

Many fans of Kaichou wa maid sama admit it is not particularly original because it is stuffed with cliches (I am not talking here but say mangafox forums or elsewhere) the key is that the author makes these cliches work. She plays the cards too well but you are the first who try to deny it due to your fanboyistic (or fangirlistic) view even though the rest clearly see that Kaichou wa Maid-sama is not really that original shoujo.

Kaichou Wa Maid-same is not original, yet it plays it cliches really well to make it more enjoyble and I am saying that adding yet another cliche would be pretty good, considering it would show us other things that havent been shown from Misaki and would add a girl with interesting towards Usui (maybe not even romantic interest but still one that Misaki would have to be aware off).

Because adding more and more bishies who have interest in Misaki (even though the prime target is Usui it still works as long as their focus is on Misaki) is just getting boring. Because we already have plenty of those. But we still do not still have at least a single girl character who would have a face and be interested in Usui (for one or the other reason, like she could have some sort of thing against Misaki, and thats why starts aiming for Usui for example).

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

Lol so you are saying that the majority of the herams are not harems then. Too bad since they are considered harems they are still harems even though one particular individual tries hard to say no by using 'romantic gratification' but again there is no romantic gratification in Keitarou and Love Hina (one of the most popular harem manga's) since Keitarou also from the very beginning has his eyes set on Naru. More important all other scenes with other girls happen with him being with them alone menaing in romance development important scene he also never ha sto deal with two bishoujo's at the same time as well.

Frankly it would be harder to find a harem with your descrition because the term 'romantic gratification' is very abstract and not dealing with two characters at once is very questionable because in majority of harems the main heroes/heroines also not deal with more than one or at best two characters at once as long as we do not talk about comedy. Because all the development scenes happen with that particular guy or girl of the harem without others present.

"Romantic gratification" is not an abstract term at all. It basically means "fanservice". A manga or anime in which a central character's situation is used to provide fanservice with a large number of sexually attractive/available characters is basically what you could call a harem. As I said, the fanservice in Maid-sama comes almost entirely from Usui. If you think Maid-sama is a harem/reverse harem, then go look at its tags in pretty much any manga database which sorts things like that.

Obviously Sol Falling, it is pointless to argue with you because you just cannot take these bottle-bottom thick fan glasses of yours.

Many fans of Kaichou wa maid sama admit it is not particularly original because it is stuffed with cliches (I am not talking here but say mangafox forums or elsewhere) the key is that the author makes these cliches work. She plays the cards too well but you are the first who try to deny it due to your fanboyistic (or fangirlistic) view even though the rest clearly see that Kaichou wa Maid-sama is not really that original shoujo.

My perspective on the strengths of Maid-sama is almost entirely derived from places like mangafox where female fans of this series gather. It is only at this male-dominated message board where I have even seen the suggestion that the series could use a female rival, let alone had it taken seriously. It is obvious that Maid-sama is indeed a shoujo series, with all the tropes that might imply (it is a series about a teenage girl, it has a high school setting, it has a romance with an impossibly hot/perfect guy, it has delinquents and involves standard high school shenanigans i.e. festivals, school trips, part timing, student council etc. etc. etc.) but being cliche has nothing to do with that. Cliche is about the execution of that, because if you're gonna call 'any' series which has that kind of thing 'unoriginal' then there is nothing 'original' at all.

Kaichou Wa Maid-same is not original, yet it plays it cliches really well to make it more enjoyble and I am saying that adding yet another cliche would be pretty good, considering it would show us other things that havent been shown from Misaki and would add a girl with interesting towards Usui (maybe not even romantic interest but still one that Misaki would have to be aware off).

Because adding more and more bishies who have interest in Misaki (even though the prime target is Usui it still works as long as their focus is on Misaki) is just getting boring. Because we already have plenty of those. But we still do not still have at least a single girl character who would have a face and be interested in Usui (for one or the other reason, like she could have some sort of thing against Misaki, and thats why starts aiming for Usui for example).

What 'cliches' does Maid-sama play? I am not seeing even one example along the lines of what you are claiming about Gerard eventually falling for Misaki. There is no 'playing' such a thing, that is dumb and terrible story-telling plain and simple and Maid-sama simply does not have anything as dumb as that. I specifically listed in my previous post a bunch of things Maid-sama has done to subvert cliches and avoid cliched storytelling (i.e. it avoided the bitchy female rival twice with the characters of Aoi and Maria) so now you are telling me you actually want to play it straight and have a real cliche in the story? No thanks dude, I am enjoying the real and original story development sir.

Who are the 'more and more bishies who are interested in Misaki' here? Tora basically wanted Misaki to be a whore for him, that is hardly harem worthy, and he has done nothing except to look down on her since. Misaki was hit on once by Kuuga before he started cowering in fear at the mere sight of her and developed a cute actual relationship with Sakura. Gerard hasn't had more than a single conversation with her and isn't even in Japan anymore, not to mention his relationship with Cedric is practically yaoi-bait, the latter of whom flat out hates her existence. Where are the bishies here? Where?

Maria is "interested" in Usui. She is as much "interested" in him romantically as Gerard or Tora in Misaki. The only thing she hasn't done is try to rape him or give up lying halfway through a fake confession. Oh wait, Gerard never did those things either. This being the case, she should already the perfect answer to all your prayers.

[Darknemo2000]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Maria is "interested" in Usui. She is as much "interested" in him romantically as Gerard or Tora in Misaki. The only thing she hasn't done is try to rape him or give up lying halfway through a fake confession. Oh wait, Gerard never did those things either. This being the case, she should already the perfect answer to all your prayers.

The fanservicve comes plenty from other guys. If you say you read mangafox then look at the threads where they go awww about Hinata or Aoi - the author is giving plenty of fanservice and not just Usui related.

Maria is much more interested in Misaki, than in Usui. She got interested in Misaki because of Usui but right now she is much more interested in Misaki.

Tora already did that to Misaki, its not too late for Gerard to do something like that too.

The main point is getting attention from the bishie. Even if its from the one like Tora. How many shoujos we had with negative attention from bishies anyway? Plenty. Heck in some shoujos the main guys are even worse than Tooras and do even rape heroines and all is fine in the end anyway.

And I used mangafox audience as the example where fans do admit it being the cliche made (those who do not go gaga over Usui, Gerard or whoever looks). But arguing with you is just pointless. Lets just agree to disagree.

[Sol Falling]

Hinata gets 'aww poor guy' love triangle pity. He does not get omg-he-is-so-hot "kyaaa"s. Same for Aoi, except Aoi is not even after Misaki in the first place. Aoi is tsundere and cute, but not a heartthrob-inducing bishie.

Are there even fans that go gaga over Tora? He is a grade A asshole towards Misaki, his only compelling points as a character are his wounded pride over Usui's superiority and having to bite it down on account of the Walkers, which have nothing to do with Misaki at all. Also, nobody who is not 'going gaga' over Gerard actually wants or expects the cliche you are talking about (him falling for Misaki) to happen, they would have picked up on the yaoi-bait with Ceddy ages ago.

I am serious, find me even one Tora x Misaki fan, someone who genuinely enjoys the interactions between them. Despite many shoujo conventions, girls are not as brainless as you think. The key point to rapist asshole protagonists is that they are supposed to actually want you (sexually) and care somewhere deep inside. Nobody expects that out of Tora, because Usui is the clear key interest in this manga. You are the one forcing this 'cliche reverse-harem service for fangirls' conception on the bishies without any actual perspective on the female reader.

I will agree to put an end this argument however. It seems I can't convince you not being an actual fangirl, but your misconceptions have been actually kinda offensive to be honest. This manga does not treat its readers or by extension Misaki like mindless bimbos who'll jump when a bishie so much as looks at them. The main selling point is Usui, and believe it or not it is not actually his looks that are the most important part, but rather his endless patience and devoted kindness.

[Darknemo2000]

No the point of Usui is not his looks but his perfection. It is not kindness as such he is just too freaking perfect. Like Special A hero for that manner. Both perfect beings on earth. Gods in human clothing capable of everything. A little bit mysterious and lonely noble weakness left for the girls to go gaga.

And I have seen a few posts supporting Tora as well, not the pairing with Misaki but wanting more fanservice from Tora. Same with Gerard or that glasses guy (who many fangirls want to have an affection towards Misaki, have seen a few of those 'that would be so cool if' posts).

This manga creates a lot of fanservice by giving you plenty of bishies to go gaga for. Usui is still fan favorite he gets most screen time, looks good and is perfect (too perfect for some who support Hinata or Aoi though) but he is certainly not the only one. This manga is stuffed with bishie fanservice, the best example would be why Gerard - why he is a super hot bishie not taken by anyone and why it couldn't be married guy with beard or a sister? Because of the fanservice. Him being a sister would be more original but those shoujo who present hero with family problems almost always show the free (not taken) super hot bishies be they older or younger brothers no matter what cliche it is.

Kaichou wa maid same makes it work, but it still consists from numerous cliches and is hardly original in that regard.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

No the point of Usui is not his looks but his perfection. It is not kindness as such he is just too freaking perfect. Like Special A hero for that manner. Both perfect beings on earth. Gods in human clothing capable of everything. A little bit mysterious and lonely noble weakness left for the girls to go gaga.

Usui certainly has extraordinary ability in a lot of things (chess, cooking, violin, etc.). + Generally high aptitude in studies, sports, etc. That doesn't really mean everything, though--it is actually still a fairly limited skillset in terms of the things that can be done in the world, and basically only covers the skills from a high IQ with a cultured Western upbringing. The real selling point of Usui is his personality, really: it is a combination of his obviously deep attraction/need for Misaki, his general apathy towards everything else, and his endless patience/consideration for her despite this. Being 'good at everything' helps a bit with making the second point possible, but its not the real root of it; Usui's characterization is very human from my perspective (that he needs an anchor of what it means to try hard, to believe in things, to look forward and want to improve himself), so the way he has been constructed is not, I think, simply empty female fantasy.

And I have seen a few posts supporting Tora as well, not the pairing with Misaki but wanting more fanservice from Tora. Same with Gerard or that glasses guy (who many fangirls want to have an affection towards Misaki, have seen a few of those 'that would be so cool if' posts).

This manga creates a lot of fanservice by giving you plenty of bishies to go gaga for. Usui is still fan favorite he gets most screen time, looks good and is perfect (too perfect for some who support Hinata or Aoi though) but he is certainly not the only one. This manga is stuffed with bishie fanservice, the best example would be why Gerard - why he is a super hot bishie not taken by anyone and why it couldn't be married guy with beard or a sister? Because of the fanservice. Him being a sister would be more original but those shoujo who present hero with family problems almost always show the free (not taken) super hot bishies be they older or younger brothers no matter what cliche it is.

It is true enough that the bishies are hot and create fanservice, but that does not consequently mean they are part of a harem or interested in Misaki. Kanou, for example, is a bishie, but he is put in a humour pairing together with Yukimura. He is well-liked as well. Tora is interesting on his own, but not as a potential suitor for Misaki.

Not that there's anything wrong with them really, but the 'wouldn't it be so cool if Gerard went after Misaki' people are frankly just fangirls who don't know quality yet, and would probably be satisfied with more or less any storyline that happens. I.e. the same kind of person who'd like Maid-sama but think Special A is just as good because all shoujo is still pretty much fresh and new to them. Those fangirls don't think too much about the characters or the story, so they'll also be perfectly fine if or rather when it doesn't actually happen. For the fangirls who are following along the romantic development and can appreciate Usui Takumi beyond just his looks, I don't think you will find that kind of talk at all, and they make up in fact a much larger part of the audience.

[Darknemo2000]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

I don't think you will find that kind of talk at all, and they make up in fact a much larger part of the audience.

Call my cynic but I very much doubt it. If you as you claim visit mangafox oftenly you must have noticed that there are much more comments on "Uwaa Usui looks hot in uniform/with glasses" rather than "Usui is so kind - I just love it".

These guys are still potential suitors for Misaki one way or another even Tora or Gerard as they are still hot, free and have their attention on her and those things are enough in most shoujo's. Kaichou havent convinced me yet that it is something different. As Aoi had to necessarily develop crush on Misaki (totally not needed for the story and is there just for the sake of fanservice and some fangirls to swoon over possible romantic distraction).

The whole Usui family things is a total cliche. Such that most already predicted the current events way before we got the revelation. Some even predicted the super hottie bishie brother even before that because again this one is another very old shoujo cliche.

And of course the oldest cliche that to hurt the hero they always try to aim for the heroine - stealing her away, charm her to push her away from the hero etc. This cliche is as old as hell. And frankly Kaichou wa maid-sama is riding it as well.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

Call my cynic but I very much doubt it. If you as you claim visit mangafox oftenly you must have noticed that there are much more comments on "Uwaa Usui looks hot in uniform/with glasses" rather than "Usui is so kind - I just love it".

There are tons more threads about 'favourite Usui moments' than there are about 'favourite Usui outfits'. Kindness is a tricky word when talking about romance so you won't find it so often, but expressions such as 'thoughtful', 'loyal', and 'considerate' are widespread. The girls also really seem to like Usui's jealousy. These are all aspects of personality.

These guys are still potential suitors for Misaki one way or another even Tora or Gerard as they are still hot, free and have their attention on her and those things are enough in most shoujo's. Kaichou havent convinced me yet that it is something different. As Aoi had to necessarily develop crush on Misaki (totally not needed for the story and is there just for the sake of fanservice and some fangirls to swoon over possible romantic distraction).

What I was saying before about Tora was to find me examples of fans who liked him as a Misaki suitor. I think there may indeed be a limited number of posts expressing interest in Tora himself (he is a developed enough character to deserve it), but none will be squeeing over his 'confessions' or 'overtures' to Misaki.

I don't know so much about Aoi having a crush on Misaki. He has been regularly frustrated by her relationship with Usui, but at least outwardly it was always directed towards their slowness to get together, and the latest chapters have more or less confirmed this as genuine. Fangirls may have been able to read more into it before the recent development's confirmation of his feeling's platonicism, but even before then they would have been attracted to Aoi not because he presented any real possibility of deciding to pursue Misaki or become a 'romantic distraction', but rather because his (hypothetical) love would have been unrequited, which stirs up sympathetic feelings of wanting to make him happy. I.e., Aoi was never a 'potential suitor' for Misaki; for fangirls the emotional gratification comes from Aoi himself, rather than a prospective relationship with him from the part of Misaki.

The whole Usui family things is a total cliche. Such that most already predicted the current events way before we got the revelation. Some even predicted the super hottie bishie brother even before that because again this one is another very old shoujo cliche.

I think the super hottie bishie brother was 'predicted' once the manga blatantly informed us all of the existence of him (Usui's background chapter--46, was it? ~10 months ago)--not before that. Find me a serious prediction of him before that point if you want to say otherwise.

I don't think it was either cliche or predictable for Usui to be a rich family's bastard child. Certainly it might not be the first manga to have done this, but that is hardly the usual development. What we have here is a dynamic of neither Usui nor the family wanting to be associated with each other but the latter holding him back on account of public honour, whereas usually it is a legitimate heir being handed a fiance to socially estrange him (from the heroine) since he is intended for the succession.


Just to sidetrack from the 'cliche/not cliche' discussion for a moment: does anybody else think it is interesting that all of the personality quirks/similarities shared between Usui and Gerard genetically come from their mother? This line of thought suggests a pretty fascinating character. I would also be very interested in discovering Usui's father (along with more of Misaki's father as someone else mentioned earlier; so far all we know is that he is like Hinata) after this consideration, primarily to gain more insight into just where Usui and Gerard might differ, although this might all indeed be out of the scope of the manga.

Anyway:

And of course the oldest cliche that to hurt the hero they always try to aim for the heroine - stealing her away, charm her to push her away from the hero etc. This cliche is as old as hell. And frankly Kaichou wa maid-sama is riding it as well.

There isn't even one example of this happening in the manga. Tora never remotely tried to 'steal' Misaki away or 'charm' her, or else you have no fucking clue as to what is actually 'charming'.