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Old 2018-06-15, 16:21   Link #3741
Gan_HOPE326
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wissenschaft View Post
I think people are making an assumtion that since the story is in a dystopian setting, the story will follow the typical format of a dystopia and have some warnings about society. That doesn't seem the case with this show. Its almost entirely focused on the characters.
It's not that a dystopian story HAS to follow that pattern. But rules in writing usually exist for a reason: that they work. Of course it's possible to write something that breaks them and still works, but it's more complicated, because it means walking into uncharted territory.

There's no reason why a dystopian tale can't be character driven, but if anything, being character driven is an excellent reason for why Franxx should have avoided making the story even more pointlessly complicated. If you need to focus on the characters you have less time for these kind of plot twists, for foreshadowing and proper development.

Add to that that really, Franxx doesn't even have such good characters, or character focused writing, anyway, and it's unclear what the point is. Besides a few isolated good episodes (like 13 and 15) a lot of this show seems either pointless meandering around or the writers throwing everything and the kitchen sink at the viewer to make it look like it's an exciting story.
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Old 2018-06-15, 16:34   Link #3742
wissenschaft
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
That's not mutually exclusive. Evangelion was also heavily character based but still made points about society in its setting. Also these last few episodes have been more about the plot than the characters. The last episode in particular was mostly plot driven.
I feel like people are fishing for meaning where there is none. Kind of reminds me of all the long essays written about Eva and its Christian symbolism when its there only to look cool and be mysterious (and man did it work). What commentary there is would be on human interactions and communication which is the focus of the show. We've had far more focus in this show on the kids interactions with each other than anything else.

For example, I just think is a big leap to think the show is somehow anti-fracking because magma energy was mined out of the ground. Of course, lets not forget this show is all about getting the Japanese to reproduce more.

Granted, I do think ep 20 is pretty jarring. If the show can end strongly I'm still willing to give it an 8/10 at this point. Its not genre redefining (few shows are) but its been quite entertain for me. This show isn't even close to being a train wreck to me, I've seen far worst anime. At worst, DitF will be yet another promising anime with a weak ending. This is not Aldnoah Zero, in fact the first season of that show was pretty good. Its the second season thats a let down to many people and that has a lot to do with how the characters were mishandled.

At worst, if the last 5 episodes of the DitF are a let down then we still got a majority of the show that was quite entertaining to me with characters staying in character and not preforming actions that make little sense like in Aldnoah Zero or even more so in Guilty Crown.
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Old 2018-06-15, 16:50   Link #3743
Haak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wissenschaft View Post
I feel like people are fishing for meaning where there is none. Kind of reminds me of all the long essays written about Eva and its Christian symbolism when its there only to look cool and be mysterious (and man did it work). What commentary there is would be on human interactions and communication which is the focus of the show. We've had far more focus in this show then kids interactions with each other than anything else.
It's not like the Fantastic Aesop problem doesn't apply to this either.

"Be willing to rebel against authority. You never know if your leaders are alien invaders in disguise fighting the ancient dino people hidden on the planet! YOU NEVER KNOW!"

Quote:
For example, I just think is a big leap to think the show is somehow anti-fracking because magma energy was mined out of the ground. Of course, lets not forget this show is all about getting the Japanese to reproduce more.
I was only half serious about that. I agree that the focus "society" has been minimal and there's nothing wrong with that though. I was just commenting on what little was there. Like all the crap that was in Episode 19.
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Old 2018-06-15, 16:55   Link #3744
wissenschaft
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
It's not like the Fantastic Aesop problem doesn't apply to this either.

"Be willing to rebel against authority. You never know if your leaders are alien invaders in disguise fighting the ancient dino people hidden on the planet! YOU NEVER KNOW!"
That I will agree with. If they wanted Virm to be in the show then they should have prepared us for it far sooner. Say, hinting that the plantations were formed after a great war from an invader. Just leaving out the part about the invaders being Aliens. That would have made it less jarring of a reveal.

YouTube
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Unsurprisingly, a two hour video. He did not like the episode. A lot rides on these last four episodes.
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Old 2018-06-15, 18:21   Link #3745
Funkatron
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Originally Posted by wissenschaft View Post
That I will agree with. If they wanted Virm to be in the show then they should have prepared us for it far sooner. Say, hinting that the plantations were formed after a great war from an invader. Just leaving out the part about the invaders being Aliens. That would have made it less jarring of a reveal.

YouTube
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Unsurprisingly, a two hour video. He did not like the episode. A lot rides on these last four episodes.
The sucky part is his theory he speculated on in his last episode would have worked sooooo much better.

Also his "No Surprise Aliens" policy is a good one
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Old 2018-06-15, 18:43   Link #3746
wissenschaft
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Originally Posted by Funkatron View Post
Also his "No Surprise Aliens" policy is a good one
More specifically, he points out that either the Klaosaurs or humans being revealed to be aliens would have been fine. Thats more what I was expecting. The "no surprise aliens" rule is more a no surprise faction at the end of a story. Such a twist lends too heavily in the direction of Deus Ex Machina. Except your replacing gods with aliens. Of course, as Nearly on Red points out, there are famous exceptions to the rule such as War of the Worlds but those are exceptions because the story had a specific purpose that required such a jarring twist.

To bring it all together, for this Virm twist to work it has to lead into how Hiro x ZeroTwo's story will be resolved. If it doesn't then yes, it was a flaw ending and a poor execution of such a twist.
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Old 2018-06-15, 18:46   Link #3747
Funkatron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wissenschaft View Post
More specifically, he points out that either the Klaosaurs or humans being revealed to be aliens would have been fine. Thats more what I was expecting. The "no surprise aliens" rule is more a no surprise faction at the end of a story. Such a twist lends too heavily in the direction of Deus Ex Machina. Of course, as Nearly on Red points out, there are famous exceptions to the rule such as War of the Worlds but those are exceptions because the story had a specific purpose that required such a jarring twist.
Even Gurren Lagann spoon fed us clues till they revealed aliens.
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Old 2018-06-15, 18:55   Link #3748
Kazu-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wissenschaft View Post
More specifically, he points out that either the Klaosaurs or humans being revealed to be aliens would have been fine. Thats more what I was expecting. The "no surprise aliens" rule is more a no surprise faction at the end of a story. Such a twist lends too heavily in the direction of Deus Ex Machina. Except your replacing gods with aliens. Of course, as Nearly on Red points out, there are famous exceptions to the rule such as War of the Worlds but those are exceptions because the story had a specific purpose that required such a jarring twist.

To bring it all together, for this Virm twist to work it has to lead into how Hiro x ZeroTwo's story will be resolved. If it doesn't then yes, it was a flaw ending and a poor execution of such a twist.
Well, APE always felt otherworldly. You know, the masks and all that. You could tell there was a mystery about them. Then when princess called them "wannabe-humans" that pretty much settled it. The alien twist wasn't a twist at all. Not if you were paying attention.
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Old 2018-06-15, 18:55   Link #3749
kari-no-sugata II
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If there was one problem with the theory that some of the APE council members were "male klaxosaurs" (a theory I liked) is that they seemed rather dismissive of klaxosaurs in general - it felt more like the attitude of a third party.

But anyway... yeah, there's a lot of things the writing should have done... and should have not done.
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Old 2018-06-15, 19:05   Link #3750
kk2extreme
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Alien doesn't make sense to me. I will just roll with it.
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Old 2018-06-15, 19:12   Link #3751
Blueknight78
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Well, APE always felt otherworldly. You know, the masks and all that. You could tell there was a mystery about them. Then when princess called them "wannabe-humans" that pretty much settled it. The alien twist wasn't a twist at all. Not if you were paying attention.
yeah i really don't understand that sort of reactions, toward then being aliens, you have the clues in anime and even in interviews, the writers told which APE are not humans, you have all the clue about them being something else, i was beting in then being "AI"s created but i was wrong, just because he don't liked that idea this don't means which they never dropped any clue about.
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Old 2018-06-15, 20:08   Link #3752
Twi
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We were arranging for a revolution. The story was already racing down a highway to that and then it abruptly swerved off the road to aliens. There's the whining, you can't pull that out of nowhere at episode 20 in a 24-25 episode series. If they were going to do that, it should've been sooner. It'd be a miracle if it doesn't go off the cliff perched far ahead unless they swerve it back.
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Old 2018-06-15, 20:23   Link #3753
Blueknight78
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Originally Posted by Twi View Post
We were arranging for a revolution. The story was already racing down a highway to that and then it abruptly swerved off the road to aliens. There's the whining, you can't pull that out of nowhere at episode 20 in a 24-25 episode series. If they were going to do that, it should've been sooner. It'd be a miracle if it doesn't go off the cliff perched far ahead unless they swerve it back.
that is the problem it not was "out of nowhere, you have the hints about APE not being human them if they are not humans, they could be "anything", from others klaxs, to robots to allien, if they bring a so advanced tech to mankind and did all what they did it showed which they where really special or different, it's just which looks "so hard" to accept it.

The hints where there, from early episodes, it not was "out of nowhere, that is my point.
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Old 2018-06-15, 20:54   Link #3754
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Twi View Post
We were arranging for a revolution. The story was already racing down a highway to that
Not really. It was made awfully clear the kids weren't going to rebel. Hiro had decided to fulfill their last mission as ordered instead of rebelling and that was that.

Revealing that Papa was not just a jerk but the true enemy of humanity was about the only way to push the kids to rebel. The twist was necessary to push the plot towards the climax. And honestly, it wasn't even a twist. There was foreshadowing Papa wasn't human.
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Old 2018-06-15, 21:08   Link #3755
Blueknight78
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Not really. It was made awfully clear the kids weren't going to rebel. Hiro had decided to fulfill their last mission as ordered instead of rebelling and that was that.

Revealing that Papa was not just a jerk but the true enemy of humanity was about the only way to push the kids to rebel. The twist was necessary to push the plot towards the climax. And honestly, it wasn't even a twist. There was foreshadowing Papa wasn't human.
yeah as we saw and again the writers told in the interviews, hiro is not you "generic mc" which wannabe the mankind savior, which open rebel against the enemie.

Hiro was very down to earth, he know the danger and how strong PAPA and humans where and how hard could be to him to "open rebel" against them, he instead of "heroic path" played the PAPA game to see if he can achieve what he wanted, ofcourse he as everyone was fooled by the alliens but he really not was that "kind of hero", some peoples even talked about the marriage being a "plan" of hiro to "test" papa and adults to see how much he can go if he wanted to something to himself, he used mitsuru and kokoro as "bait".
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Old 2018-06-15, 21:15   Link #3756
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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To be fair, the alien-reveal is not outside the realm of possibility in the first place, especially if you know Trigger's tendency in their sci-fi mecha shows. Heck, many people were already anticipating it, including me. Here's a piece of my post discussing the alien-nature of APE with Magewolf well before episode 20 happened:
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
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Originally Posted by Magewolf View Post
It is rather standard for aliens, time travelers, or crosstime travelers to claim to be scientific geniuses to explain their access to higher tech levels. So if that is what they were doing they were doing it to fool the normal humans not the audience.
Yes, that's the standard, but do you really want this show to be even more mediocre than it already is? Me, I actually want this show to be better and so I suggested the "scientists but also aliens/future-men/dimension-men/etc"-idea or vice versa however you like it (I mean, advanced aliens has scientists among them, right? Like Kryptonians). The show can have it both ways and that will actually give a new spin to the standard cliche where the mysterious scientists turn out to be just aliens or *insert other plain description here*.
We can see the alien-reveal coming, but the quality of the writing is still questionable at best until we actually see how it all ends. The fact that the show went with the tired route of "we're super genius scientists because we're just aliens!" is already discouraging so far.
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Old 2018-06-15, 22:01   Link #3757
Magewolf
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I think the problem is not just that they are aliens,something like that was pretty obviously coming. Though having them be more closely tied to the Klax would have worked better. But that the reveal came with a giant interstellar war and an all new alien race in episode 20 with only 4 episodes to tie everything together.
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Old 2018-06-15, 23:21   Link #3758
Jord
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I understand why that analysis and the overall criticism against the last 2-3 episodes is so hard.

If we look at how things happened in the series in an incredibly small period of time we can see that there is too much stuff that was pull out of nowhere and ended on ruining the expectations of the series in terms of development, by that I mean everything was absolutely predictable and the execution was poorly done.
That said, the Alien thing was too much, the mystery and theories went down the toilet because of that and right now this is not anymore about Humans vs Klaxos and kids, this is "Aliens and spacebattles lmao" kind of bullshit. Is still entertaining but the quality of the series went down because of it.

In my opinion, if they wanted to introduce all the alien thing they should've done it on more episodes, now the series is almost done and all what we have left is watching how someone dies, if the main heroine sacrifice herself or if there will be a happy ending.
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Old 2018-06-16, 01:34   Link #3759
Cosmic Eagle
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Caught up to the last week's ep

suddenly, aliens, lolwat. That was ....the most simplistic direction they could have went and they took it. There isn't even enough time left to build them up into more than just faceless random enemy number 153772677272....
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Old 2018-06-16, 03:50   Link #3760
Gan_HOPE326
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
"Be willing to rebel against authority. You never know if your leaders are alien invaders in disguise fighting the ancient dino people hidden on the planet! YOU NEVER KNOW!"
I'm pretty sure there's a conspiracy theorist out there who thinks this is very relevant and Trigger is in fact taking some serious shots at The Man. I mean, the whole "world leaders are secretly aliens" is an actual conspiracy theory that some people seriously believe already .
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