[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[UsagiTenpura]

Well, arguably if Shkanon isn't true and Kanon is a girl, then no I don't think it'd destroy the concept of Kanon even if exposed, but yeah seeing as people would refer to "him/her" as Shannon under a Shkanon idea it could be argued to say it makes his existence (as Kanon) impossible. Very few things can't be argued.

When did I suggest dead does not mean dead? So far I only agreed to that. That's one of the few things I think cannot be argued about.

Even if Shkanon is true and is the culprit and is Beatrice, seeing as arc 3 is suggested to be somewhat of an arc where the goal failed, I'm far more inclined to believe that someone else is the culprit. Kyrie/Rudolph makes somewhat a good team for that, or Hideyoshi I guess. Neither Kyrie nor Hideyoshi's death are very convincing in the tips and there's no red about them.

Edit : About Kanon's death in arc 4, seeing as suicide occuring in arc 4 was ruled out, it's hard to claim whoever is Beatrice wasn't killed by someone else anyway. Accidental death is an option I guess but that just... Ah I guess Maria could've accidentally eaten poisoned food or something?

[Qaenyin]

Originally Posted by Renall

Why is that so? Kanon could be a girl even without Shkanon. Suddenly revealing you're a different gender changes people's understanding of Kanon, but doesn't destroy him, except in the sense it destroys "him."

Certainly not confidently enough to rise to the level of death, other than for certain bits of him.

Ultimately it depends on identity if you ask me. Identity in my opinion means personal identity. Someone has to believe or know they are this person. This includes memories, personal identifying with the identity, name, etc.

So for example someone with split personalities one personality ceasing to exist would mean that "name" associated with that personality is gone. Similarly someone with amnesia ceases to exist as their old personage.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Qaenyin

Ultimately it depends on identity if you ask me. Identity in my opinion means personal identity. Someone has to believe or know they are this person. This includes memories, personal identifying with the identity, name, etc.

So for example someone with split personalities one personality ceasing to exist would mean that "name" associated with that personality is gone. Similarly someone with amnesia ceases to exist as their old personage.

Not that I think this is what you're trying to claim (I agree with the overall of your second point), but the idea of spontaneous amnesia for Shkanon in Umineko has a level of absurdity I have no choice but to respect.

[Nihilartikel]

Time for crackpot theories that make no sense but may still contain a hint of the truth (or a parody of the less thought out theories here):

Spoiler for stupid:

Hypothesis A: Shkiggletrice
Kanon and Shannon are one individual with Easy Identity Disorder. They are also Beatrice and have meta-knowledge and memories from previous games. Beatrice's revival in Ep6 is the moment when Shannon suddenly "reconnects" to the meta-level and sees the need to rescue Battler from Erika's inspection. She leaves through the window, runs to the mansion, rescues Battler from the guest room as Kanon and goes into the closet. In there, he finds Jessica's Marisa costume.
This inspires Kanon to use his meta-knowledge about the Touhou fandom to fool Erika by improvising a Wriggle Nightbug costume, which he can now wear, effectively becoming that character thanks to his Easy Identity Disorder. Wriggle is Blue Truth-proof because, technically, she's not even human, so she would be safe even if Erika had asked Beato to confirm that after Kanon "disappeared" the only person/body left in that room was Erika herself (why didn't she do this, again?).
Anyway, Shkiggletrice is the key Ryuukishi was talking about because she can be declared to be a non-human in red without destroying the mystery aspect of the story: she is not really capable of magic and has to murder people manually, but her really weak sense of self makes her essentially invulnerable to most Red Truth. She both is and is not human (at least as long as there's no one looking and going "Kanon, why are you wearing antennae?").

Hypothesis B: Banon
Shkannon is not true, but Battler is the one with Easy Identity Disorder. The cousins' room and the next room over have nothing to do with the solution to Battler's escape, because the real Kanon was not involved. Battler just found one of his spare berets in the closet and put it on, thereby becoming Kanon in his mind. He then proceeded to play around with the chainlock a bit before going back into the closet and falling asleep waiting for Erika to come out of the bathroom. He "disappeared" because either a) his imagination stopped working when he fell asleep or b) he started dreaming that he was someone else.

There you have it. Two perfectly sensible theories based on an easy-to-explain psychological condition that does not violate Knox's decalogue (mostly).

Now, back to the serious discussions about how everything makes sense if you assume everyone on the island is simply insane . Just kidding, I'm actually amazed at how creative some of the theories people have come up with in this board are.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Nihilartikel

Battler just found one of his spare berets in the closet and put it on, thereby becoming Kanon in his mind. He then proceeded to play around with the chainlock a bit before going back into the closet and falling asleep waiting for Erika to come out of the bathroom. He "disappeared" because either a) his imagination stopped working when he fell asleep or b) he started dreaming that he was someone else.

Nah, because while he was asleep, the beret fell off.

On a more serious angle, it may be that "Kanon" is a title meaning "possessor of a certain item", for example, or the title meaning "someone who owes a debt to Beatrice". Once the debt is paid, i.e. Battler is saved, Kanon no longer exists by definition.

[winter 923]

Didn't Kanon die in EP4 while climbing up the well and fall down into the darkness? I think he did because i facepalmed at the moment thinking "great again no corpse"

Why does everyone think that one existence relies on others. Isn't it the opposite? People wear maskes appearendly red, sneering maskes. Lets take Eva as a example, while with Hideyoshi she is caring, doesn't fear showing her weak side. The same goes with George plus her strictness so that he will suceed, something that was never allowed to her. If she is around Krauss/Natsuhi or any of their servants she uses any opportunity to mock them, again because of her childhood and her being told she is inferior. So why would she be always Eva to the others if no one beside her even know the true, whole Eva. It's not like you can't change your name/status untill you kill everyone off who knew you before.

in short: If Kanon stops being Furniture because he either quit his job or finds the gold, he will not be Kanon anymore. No matter what anyone thinks. Kanon will die, why? because its a metapher. Kanon the name doesn't exist anymore, it stopped existing the same time he quit his job. He will be Yoshiya, starting a new life or the head of Ushiromiya with the title "Kinzo" (which means Gold Storage, a fitting title). Anyone seeing him still as "the servant Kanon" is not only wrong but also rude and disrespectfull to that human being.

[LaplaceNoMa]

Well, I've already thought about the 'vessel' theory. If we assume that Kanon = his beret or something of the sort (like Sakutaro = the stuffed lion, the Stakes of Purgatory = the cheap stakes and so on), we can take Bern's words as a hint. Bathtub IS a way out of the room for Kanon in that case, isn't it?

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by LaplaceNoMa

Well, I've already thought about the 'vessel' theory. If we assume that Kanon = his beret or something of the sort (like Sakutaro = the stuffed lion, the Stakes of Purgatory = the cheap stakes and so on), we can take Bern's words as a hint. Bathtub IS a way out of the room for Kanon in that case, isn't it?

Not really, because Erika is in the bathroom at the time.
It's perfectly possible to toss a beret out the door, close it up, and hide in the closet, though. Works the same if "Kanon" is the name of a Goa'uld possessing the body we know as Kanon.

[Renall]

Well if we want to get into silly name technicalities, "only the person him/herself can claim that name!" can be easily defeated through mere pedantry: Of course only Kanon can claim to be Kanon. If he were not Kanon he could not be him; if he claims to be him, he is, for Kanon exists only when he is claimed to!

I'm sure there's no gaping logical holes in that identity argument.

[serverwolf]

just stop with the shkanon theory! its just wrong!!!
here ill even try to disprove it. (plase try and disprove my counter, it will help to see the truth)

shakanon
shanon and kanon are actully the same person, in other words there are acutlly 16 peoples (refer to bodys) on rokenjima during the game.
and since shanon is not kanon and kanon is not shanon, shakanon can slip between the red thruth.
that pretty much the theory right?

here my counter.
the game take place at the year 1986, during the time frame of October 4 and October 5 on rokenjima
i belive we all can agree with that right?

in other words, shkanon HAVE to exist before the game
or are you tring to say that shanon and kanon became one with magic?

shakanon exist on every game is what you say right?

DLANOR!!! its a show time (lol)
EP5: erika is the detective
shanon helped to Erika to dress, after that erika enterd the room and met kanon, shanon was beside erika at that time, and kanon inside the room
Knox's 10th: It is forbidden for a character to disguise themselves as another without any clues

knox's 8th : It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented.
while Knox's 9th : It is permitted for observers to let their own conclusions and interpretations be heard.
however the detective is not an observer
Knox's 7th : It is forbidden for the detective to be the culprit.
therefore, if Erika didn't notic anything spacel about the shanon beside her, and the kanon infront of her at the smae time (wich is imposible for 2 personality in 1 body to do BTW) shakanon cannot exist
i will not let the exist!!

try and counter that!

[UsagiTenpura]

@ serverwolf
It's been countered before, often, in all of it's variations. At this point it simply matters if you think it makes no sense or thinks it makes sense.

The problem I continually pointed out toward Shkanon disbeliever is that there are plenty of hints about Shkanon. If these do not mean Shkanon, then they have to mean something.

For example it isn't too much to suggest the idea that let's say, within arc 2, Kanon's corpse was never been found because he was murdered by Shannon. Shannon then disguised him as herself to fake her own death later on (her face wasn't even seen by Battler, this has been talked about here in details before, we cannot prove her arc 2 corpse is her own corpse).

There is no Shkanon that way and a purpose to it.

A theory that fails to provide a purpose for all the Shkanon hints stands on equal ground with Shkanon in term of validity.

[Pika_power]

Originally Posted by serverwolf

just stop with the shkanon theory! its just wrong!!!
here ill even try to disprove it. (plase try and disprove my counter, it will help to see the truth)

shakanon
shanon and kanon are actully the same person, in other words there are acutlly 16 peoples (refer to bodys) on rokenjima during the game.
and since shanon is not kanon and kanon is not shanon, shakanon can slip between the red thruth.
that pretty much the theory right?

here my counter.
the game take place at the year 1986, during the time frame of October 4 and October 5 on rokenjima
i belive we all can agree with that right?

in other words, shkanon HAVE to exist before the game
or are you tring to say that shanon and kanon became one with magic?

shakanon exist on every game is what you say right?

DLANOR!!! its a show time (lol)
EP5: erika is the detective
shanon helped to Erika to dress, after that erika enterd the room and met kanon, shanon was beside erika at that time, and kanon inside the room
Knox's 10th: It is forbidden for a character to disguise themselves as another without any clues

knox's 8th : It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented.
while Knox's 9th : It is permitted for observers to let their own conclusions and interpretations be heard.
however the detective is not an observer
Knox's 7th : It is forbidden for the detective to be the culprit.
therefore, if Erika didn't notic anything spacel about the shanon beside her, and the kanon infront of her at the smae time (wich is imposible for 2 personality in 1 body to do BTW) shakanon cannot exist
i will not let the exist!!

try and counter that!

The argument against that, IIRC, is that We do not see the scene from Erika's perspective, and Erika is never shown to interact with both Kanon and Shannon in a single scene. Therefore it is possible Erika is unaware that Shkannon is but a single person.

My question for Shkanon is how the counting for the last red works.

Assuming:
Human=Body
Person=Personality


we have 18 humans, but 17 personalities. Let's count each, assuming Shkanontrice is in effect.

Humans
Battler
Erika
Eva
Genji
George
Gohda
Hideyoshi
Jessica
Kinzo (?)
Krauss
Kumasawa
Kyrie
Maria
Nanjo
Natsuhi
Rosa
Rudolf
Shkanontrice (Shannon)
Total: 18 bodies

People
Battler
Beatrice
Erika (?)
Eva
Genji
George
Gohda
Hideyoshi
Jessica
Kanon
Krauss
Kumasawa
Kyrie
Maria
Nanjo
Natsuhi
Rosa
Rudolf
Shannon
Total: 18 personalities (19 with Erika)

It barely works with the body count. It doesn't work with the personality count, as Beato counts as a person, no?



Taking a non-Shannon route, to explain Kanon's disappearance, we just have to look for links in the Episodes his corpse vanishes. EP2, EP4, EP6. We'll discount EP6, because the game was never finished. EP2 and EP4 have little in common, except for how at the end, Zettai Ryouiki Beatrice appears and confronts Battler, while both Shannon and Kanon are 'dead'. Therefore Kanon is being used as a body double for Shannontrice.

The reason we don't see Kanon and Shannon together in EP1-EP4 is because in EP1, Shannon is killed early, in EP2, Kanon is killed early, in EP3, both are killed early, and in EP4, Battler all but sleeps through the murders. October 4th can be explained as Natsuhi using Kanon as a backup in Kinzo's study (a fantastic idea I read on here). This can be extended to Kinzon if you're so inclined.

[serverwolf]

[QUOTE=Pika_power;3181520]The argument against that, IIRC, is that We do not see the scene from Erika's perspective, and Erika is never shown to interact with both Kanon and Shannon in a single scene. Therefore it is possible Erika is unaware that Shkannon is but a single person.

QUOTE]

actully i chacked before i said it in red. shanon did was beside Erika and kanon ws inside the room, unless you mean something eals from a plsit personality disorder (like what UsagiTenpura said)

if the shkanon theory is shanon killed kanon and stole his cloth and now act like kanon
or as revers kanon killed shanon and stole her cloth and now act like shanon
first i need to know wich EP you are talking about and wich puzzel (i can't remember them all you know)

[Midnight Bliss]

In Ep 5, didn't both Kanon and Shannon come into the dining room together, while Erika was in there, too? She was the detective in Ep 5. Thing is, why can she see them together when she's the detective, when Battler can't?

[Pika_power]

[QUOTE=serverwolf;3181566]

Originally Posted by Pika_power

The argument against that, IIRC, is that We do not see the scene from Erika's perspective, and Erika is never shown to interact with both Kanon and Shannon in a single scene. Therefore it is possible Erika is unaware that Shkannon is but a single person.

QUOTE]

actully i chacked before i said it in red. shanon did was beside Erika and kanon ws inside the room, unless you mean something eals from a plsit personality disorder (like what UsagiTenpura said)

if the shkanon theory is shanon killed kanon and stole his cloth and now act like kanon
or as revers kanon killed shanon and stole her cloth and now act like shanon
first i need to know wich EP you are talking about and wich puzzel (i can't remember them all you know)

Any scene. We never see Erika see Shannon/Kanon in the sense of "Around me were Gohda, Kumasawa, Shannon and Kanon". Not does Erika ever say "Hello Shannon, hello Kanon". She just ignores them. Also, they're servants, so they're out of the way. Kanon goes out of his way to hide behind Gohda.

In other words, you can re-read the scenes with all narration pertaining to Kanon cut out, and it still makes sense.

[serverwolf]

Originally Posted by Midnight Bliss

In Ep 5, didn't both Kanon and Shannon come into the dining room together, while Erika was in there, too? She was the detective in Ep 5. Thing is, why can she see them together when she's the detective, when Battler can't?

i didn't use batteler in my counter becuse there are people who dont belive in anything that is not red. and batteler was never declerd in red that he is the detective (even if its obviuse that he is the detective in the 1-4 EP...)

[QUOTE=Pika_power;3181575]

Originally Posted by serverwolf

Any scene. We never see Erika see Shannon/Kanon in the sense of "Around me were Gohda, Kumasawa, Shannon and Kanon". Not does Erika ever say "Hello Shannon, hello Kanon". She just ignores them. Also, they're servants, so they're out of the way. Kanon goes out of his way to hide behind Gohda.

In other words, you can re-read the scenes with all narration pertaining to Kanon cut out, and it still makes sense.

i still dont understand wich "blue truth" you are using.
the one i said about the split personality, or the on in wich shanon and kanon switchs places?
but i can say that: if the detective didn't found it, its mean its not an option. there is no devil prof in mystery, and the 5th EP is pure mystery (kinda... well its was declred in red...kinda.... well... you understand what i mean)

[Used Can]

You know guys, I've been thinking - and this is one of the basis for my "2 Kanons" theory - do we know why Kinzo gave those odd names to his servants? Moreover, do we know the reason why he decided to use 音 on their names?

So far, we've heard of Shannon, Kanon, Manon, Renon, and Ruon. Although, we've only seen Shannon and Kanon. So, I've been wondering, what if these names can be used by any of them? Of course, after learning that Shannon's real name is Sayo, we're led to believe that the names Kinzo gave them were based on their real names. But, what if Sayo is not Shannon's real name? Or, what if the servant names are not based at all on their real names?

Personally, I find it a bit too far-fetched myself, but even now, I found these servants, the whole deal with Fukuin House and the odd naming system to be really suspicious.

[serverwolf]

Originally Posted by Used Can

You know guys, I've been thinking - and this is one of the basis for my "2 Kanons" theory - do we know why Kinzo gave those odd names to his servants? Moreover, do we know the reason why he decided to use 音 on their names?

So far, we've heard of Shannon, Kanon, Manon, Renon, and Ruon. Although, we've only seen Shannon and Kanon. So, I've been wondering, what if these names can be used by any of them? Of course, after learning that Shannon's real name is Sayo, we're led to believe that the names Kinzo gave them were based on their real names. But, what if Sayo is not Shannon's real name? Or, what if the servant names are not based at all on their real names?

Personally, I find it a bit too far-fetched myself, but even now, I found these servants, the whole deal with Fukuin House and the odd naming system to be really suspicious.

...um.... sayo is shanon, i dont remember if it was said in red however, even if its fake... what does it change? (can't think on anything that will change) afterall the red truth (that the loveless people love so much) is talking about shanon not sayo.
and they were never intreduced, in other words its dystroys the knoxs (even if most of them are related to a detective decleration, there are is a rule wich say taht the criminal have to be intreduced before the crimes happens. a rule wich im sure that apply to every game, even touse without the detective decleration)

even if the other servent that were never intreduced t us can use thous names, they cannot be the criminals after all there are no more (or less) then 17 people on the island. so there is no room for outsider without premision of the GM.

[winter 923]

oh yea...Knox's 1st. It is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early part of the story! A person first introduced in the 5th game cannot be named as the CULPRIT...!!
When was Erika introduced again? Who killed the people again in EP6? Looks like Erika is the coin in the cups riddle answer? or is knox a lie? her red a lie? choose your venom.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by winter 923

oh yea...Knox's 1st. It is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early part of the story! A person first introduced in the 5th game cannot be named as the CULPRIT...!!
When was Erika introduced again? Who killed the people again in EP6? Looks like Erika is the coin in the cups riddle answer? or is knox a lie? her red a lie? choose your venom.

The thing is that Knox does not specify how to be applied to tales being presented to us the way the tales of Umineko are. The main continuity of the Umineko between themselves are the Meta-World. In that sense Knox 1st simply obliges that within the meta-world the culprit (if such a thing exists in the meta-world) must remain the same and has been introduced early (because the meta-world is a continuity of the same tale). Within the tale of a single gameboard, it's culprit must be someone introduced early, Knox is obeyed there. But with a different tale that is not a sequel of the previous ones there is nothing that specifically prevents the culprit from being a character not introduced to us until the early part of that specific tale.