[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

My point is that Maria's lies never fool anyone. The definition of a witch cannot simply be someone who tells lies even if no one believes those lies. If that is the definition, it's not very interesting or useful. The significant point is that Maria believes those lies (Ange believes her lies, Kinzo believes his lies, Beatrice seems to believe her lies), not that she tells them to other people.

Which is precisely why Maria is still an apprentice and not a full-fledged witch. Maria still has to learn how to make magic visible to others.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

No, it's because Virgilia taught Sayo about magic. I'm not sure how much she specifically taught her, but we know almost for certain that she did. After all, how do you explain the blending of eastern and western concepts, the spiderwebs and the mirror along with the idea of a western witch? Who's been the one source for old Rokkenjima ghost stories since the beginning of EP1? Kumasawa.
.

How is it possible for someone to teach how to become a witch without being a witch herself? Virgilia knows magic, virgilia can use magic (what kumasawa does is definitely magic), Virgilia was part of mariage sorciere as it is shown in Maria's diary Virgilia's signature. Virgilia knows magic enough to teach it. And yet you say that she isn't a witch. Virgilia was formerly known as "Beatrice the golden witch", Dlanor confirms that. So it's not true that we only have Beato's perspective. Virgilia is still a witch in Battler's game.

And I can't see a single hint that would make me think that Virgilia is not a witch.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

How is it possible for someone to teach how to become a witch without being a witch herself? Virgilia knows magic, virgilia can use magic (what kumasawa does is definitely magic), Virgilia was part of mariage sorciere as it is shown in Maria's diary Virgilia's signature. Virgilia knows magic enough to teach it. And yet you say that she isn't a witch. Virgilia was formerly known as "Beatrice the golden witch", Dlanor confirms that. So it's not true that we only have Beato's perspective. Virgilia is still a witch in Battler's game.

And I can't see a single hint that would make me think that Virgilia is not a witch.

Yes, but in Beatrice's game, we also have demons and magic.

Think about what you're saying. You're saying there must be only one way to interpret the word "witch" throughout the entire game. As I've pointed out, there's no reason that needs to be the case. It's possible that the character "Virgilia" is a witch who can use magic, but she is also furniture. Which means she's not Kumasawa, but a personality that might have been played by Kumasawa. Beatrice believed her in the same way Maria believed Beatrice.
It may be that Kumasawa taught Beatrice how to create her own imaginary world out of pity or by Kinzo's orders, but that doesn't mean that Kumasawa herself believed it. And even if she did, you still haven't shown any evidence that Kumasawa didn't have a similar difficult past.

I see that you have your interpretation and that's fine, but the fact that yours exists doesn't make mine any more or less likely.

[RockReborn]

I figure that Virgilia simply represents Kumasawa during the magic scenes. If we consider Beatrice's 'furniture' as their own entities, then it gets a tad messy with the number of people on the island...

Also, for EP1, on the subject of the murders of Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo, it's stated in red that And of course, the three were killed by other people! In that case, doesn't it mean that there's more than one person who faked his or her death?

Where's Scooby Doo when you need him?

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by RockReborn

Also, for EP1, on the subject of the murders of Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo, it's stated in red that And of course, the three were killed by other people! In that case, doesn't it mean that there's more than one person who faked his or her death?

That's just a translation artifact, since the Japanese doesn't actually specify a number of killers. An equivalent translation would be "All three of them were murdered."

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

That's just a translation artifact, since the Japanese doesn't actually specify a number of killers. An equivalent translation would be "All three of them were murdered."

That's right, though the word here, tasatsu, is a bit more broad than "murder", since manslaughter also counts. If Nanjo accidentally shot Genji in the face, who then shot Kumasawa and Nanjo in a fit before he actually died, you might have a valid, if stupid, explanation for this one. Throw in an argument to up it to manslaughter...
"The three deaths were due to homicide" or something would be a bit closer.

I figure that Virgilia simply represents Kumasawa during the magic scenes. If we consider Beatrice's 'furniture' as their own entities, then it gets a tad messy with the number of people on the island...

That's basically what I'm saying. You don't normally count fictional entities in the number of people on the island, and that's all Virgilia is.

[RockReborn]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

That's just a translation artifact, since the Japanese doesn't actually specify a number of killers. An equivalent translation would be "All three of them were murdered."

You sure? If you're right, then I'm going to be a tad bummed because here I thought I had stumbled onto something...

[Renall]

I always took "killed by other people" to simply mean "killed by a person not themselves," that is, no suicide, since that was essentially Battler's train of thought up to that point.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

That's just a translation artifact, since the Japanese doesn't actually specify a number of killers. An equivalent translation would be "All three of them were murdered."

Wasn't the argument Battler was trying to make something like that the three of them got into a mexican stand off and they all shot each other or something? Well he never explained where they got the guns so I thought this red was supposed to deny that by saying that they were killed by other people. Or maybe he made that argument after this red. I might have to look back because I don't really remember.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Yes, but in Beatrice's game, we also have demons and magic.

Think about what you're saying. You're saying there must be only one way to interpret the word "witch" throughout the entire game. As I've pointed out, there's no reason that needs to be the case. It's possible that the character "Virgilia" is a witch who can use magic, but she is also furniture. Which means she's not Kumasawa, but a personality that might have been played by Kumasawa. Beatrice believed her in the same way Maria believed Beatrice.
It may be that Kumasawa taught Beatrice how to create her own imaginary world out of pity or by Kinzo's orders, but that doesn't mean that Kumasawa herself believed it. And even if she did, you still haven't shown any evidence that Kumasawa didn't have a similar difficult past.

I see that you have your interpretation and that's fine, but the fact that yours exists doesn't make mine any more or less likely.

But are you aware that someone could use the same argument to state that Kanon and Shannon are not furniture?

In other words, in the case of furniture you consider every being that was labeled as "furniture" as necessarily a fake existence, including Genji.

Then for some inexplicable reasons you think that Virgilia despite being labeled as a "witch" dozens of time isn't really a witch. What lacks here is a hint of some sort that would justify the mere thinking that Virgilia is the only "witch" that isn't really a witch. There is none, this idea of your just come out of the blue.

This is the same as if someone suddenly said, "in reality Genji a is female to male transexual". You can't deny that, but what in the world make you think that?

[chronotrig]

@Jan-poo:

Spoiler for size:

Sorry, but you really aren't making much sense here. First off, it's flat out incorrect to say that my idea came "out of the blue". I have given evidence supporting pretty much every line in my original theory, even if that evidence isn't absolute proof (which is impossible in this game except for red text). This theory explains not only how Shkanon could exist and even be reached logically, but also a huge portion of the meta-world and the TIPs that most people decide to ignore completely. Of course, I doubt everything I've guessed is right, but you have to admit that there is a reason for everything I've said.

Second, I'm pretty sure I said just a few posts back that the character Virgilia is a witch. If you can imagine demons talking to you, you can imagine witches talking to you. However, that doesn't prove that the human who dressed up as Virgilia also falls under the same definition of a witch that Maria and Ange fall under. Maria isn't a talking stuffed animal just because she pretends to be Sakutaro's voice now and then.

Try and picture it. You have a young girl living in Kuwadorian, who is often helped by someone who claims to be the legendary witch of the island, Beatrice. This person comes to the girl when the girl needs help and teaches her "magic spells" to help ease her pain. Eventually, the girl decides that she wants to become a witch too, and the person claiming to be Beatrice plays along with that because the poor girl seems so excited. In this case, would the young girl view the second person as Beatrice, the witch of Rokkenjima? Almost certainly. Would that prove by definition that this second person had a troubled, painful past and believed imaginary people lived in her head? No, not really. And by the way, the scene I've just described is very similar to the opening to EP3.

Also, please don't put words in my mouth. I never said that "anyone labeled as furniture is necessarily fake because the story said so". I made a point of saying that it was only a hint, though a very strong one. In other words, "everyone called furniture must be suspected of being a fictional personality", especially if they call themselves furniture for some reason many people don't even try to explain. And the same goes for witches. Every person described as a witch should be suspected of falling under the Umineko definition of a witch. And every single one does, with Virgilia being the only possible exception since we are also shown that she is probably Beatrice's furniture. And yet again, you've completely ignored the fact that for all we know, Kumasawa was a witch by this definition. That may be significant for the backstory details, but as far as this theory so far is concerned, it doesn't matter either way.

[ErenselTheJester]

Furniture (noun)- Any movable article within an establishment that make it fit for living. This includes chairs, tables, cabinets, desks, etc.

When a servant says that they are a furniture, they are pretty much repeating the fact that they are a servant, which is a person employed in the service of another mostly for the case of making their life easier. So, in a way, furniture = servant because both are used for the purpose of another person's life. So, for it to be a must for us to suspect a servant of being a fictional person because they call themselves furniture isn't really necessary. I mean, aren't they just emphasizing the fact that they are a servant?

May I also note that Virgillia doesn't have to be a servant to Beatrice, she's just used as a piece for this game. Its already said that she's a finite witch and because she is a witch that makes her above demons and the like. Besides we've already seen her command goats, so we can say that she's above them. Also, Beatrice might fall into the same category as Virgillia because she was under Kinzo's command as well.

So with that I can summarize it as: Any person can call themselves "furniture" as long as they are employed under the benefit and service of another person's life.

Now, onto Kumasawa herself, We don't know how long Kumasawa has served in the Ushiromiya family and considering that she doesn't bear the mark of the One- Winged Eagle (or at least not that we have seen), we can assume it wasn't for very long. So, we can say that she hasn't been influenced by Kinzo all that much and thus hasn't inherited any of his western tastes.

Also, the girl taught by Virgillia could have been the First Beatrice (the Beatrice that gave Kinzo the gold), so we really can't say that the littler girl and Shannon are the same person.

[chronotrig]

@ErenselTheJester:
Well, we know from Kumasawa's tips and everyone's statements that she's served the family a long time, plus we know for a fact that she loves telling the old ghost stories about Rokkenjima that were famous among the sailors and the other servants. This includes the story of the witch Beatrice.

Hmm, I personally doubt that the girl taught by Virgilia was the first Beatrice since the scene seems to have taken place in Kuwadorian. It might have been the second Beatrice, but that one supposedly told Rosa "I do not know any magic", while the Beatrice taught by Virgilia supposedly started "learning" magic as a little girl.

As for the furniture, that interpretation is very possible of course, and it's the one I assumed was true most of the time when reading the question arcs. Still, it's a very uncommon and strange way for even a servant to refer to themselves, especially considering that this is 1986. I've never heard of a servant referring to themselves that way. And why did being a servant mean that Shannon and George couldn't fall in love? After all, -on servants don't stay employed for life, and Shannon had already worked much longer than a normal servant. It should have been as easy as quitting her job sometime in the last year and going out with George publicly.

[Renall]

It's no proof they couldn't, merely that they didn't. It's the same problem I have with people who theorize Genji as an accomplice or murderer merely because he's "acting on orders." Just because Genji is portrayed as a very loyal person doesn't mean he isn't a thinking and feeling human being who would balk at the idea of murdering over a dozen people. Now, that doesn't prove he wouldn't do it, but I think he needs a better motive than that.

Just because the text says "they couldn't fall in love" doesn't mean they couldn't. Indeed, we've seen evidence to the direct contrary of that. But Shannon does seem to have some kind of hangup about the whole issue. However, I'm less inclined to trust what the pseudo-magic-world of ep6 says any more than I was the ep2 or ep3 or ep4 ones. They're inconsistent enough that I can't see them as anything but thematic. And the theme, as I see it, is that they're often portrayed as "mere furniture" yet they behave in very much human ways. I think who they are as people (or a person, depending on how you think it shakes down) is more important than the unusual way they address themselves.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

@ErenselTheJester:
Well, we know from Kumasawa's tips and everyone's statements that she's served the family a long time, plus we know for a fact that she loves telling the old ghost stories about Rokkenjima that were famous among the sailors and the other servants. This includes the story of the witch Beatrice.

Hmm, I personally doubt that the girl taught by Virgilia was the first Beatrice since the scene seems to have taken place in Kuwadorian. It might have been the second Beatrice, but that one supposedly told Rosa "I do not know any magic", while the Beatrice taught by Virgilia supposedly started "learning" magic as a little girl.

I personally think the Beatrice we see talking to Virgilia at the start of EP 3 is Shannon. Shannon came to the island as a young girl and might have lived in the Kuwadorian for some time. Since she was an orphan she began feeling lonely and Kumasawa cheered her up by talking about magic and pretending to be a witch.

Of course, this idea supports Shkannontrice since Beatrice remembers the dream as one of her own.

[rogerpepitone]

Shipments to Kuwadorian stopped around the time Rosa visited there, several years before Shannon was born.

[chronotrig]

@Renall:
So are you suggesting that we just ignore all of those scenes? What about the entire first part of EP2, with all that talk about needing a golden brooch in order to have love? Also, remember that Shannon apparently only felt "qualified" to love George after smashing the mirror? Both of these fit in perfectly with my theory: it's adding a new magic rule to sidestep an old one, just like Ange reviving Sakutaro for Maria. The rule was: furniture cannot love a human. However, Sayo later "discovers" that if they undergo trial X or use magical object Y, they might be able to get around this rule.

If you're suggesting that these parts were just "thematic material", exactly what theme are you talking about? All that just to describe how hard it is for there to be love between a servant and the family she serves? Why does Beatrice appear here?

It's no proof they couldn't, merely that they didn't.

You can't prove anything in Umineko. I never suggested that this argument means absolutely that my theory is right. Yes, it's probably possible to create a theory that's different from mine, but at least mine seems to work (so far).

[Marion]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

Shipments to Kuwadorian stopped around the time Rosa visited there, several years before Shannon was born.

Who says they need shipments. They can just transfer some things from the mansion over to the Kuwadorian. Not like a lot of people live on the island anymore when Shannon arrives.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Marion

Who says they need shipments. They can just transfer some things from the mansion over to the Kuwadorian. Not like a lot of people live on the island anymore when Shannon arrives.

But the boat captain made it very clear to Ange that he did make shipments there.

[RockReborn]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

@Renall:
So are you suggesting that we just ignore all of those scenes? What about the entire first part of EP2, with all that talk about needing a golden brooch in order to have love? Also, remember that Shannon apparently only felt "qualified" to love George after smashing the mirror? Both of these fit in perfectly with my theory: it's adding a new magic rule to sidestep an old one, just like Ange reviving Sakutaro for Maria. The rule was: furniture cannot love a human. However, Sayo later "discovers" that if they undergo trial X or use magical object Y, they might be able to get around this rule.
.

Reading this, a thought struck me. What if the Golden Truth works with this kind of principle, based on getting around the rules? It would explain why Bern, as she states in her letter in the extra TIPS, would see it as being an infinite maze that keeps changing. The Red Truth, being absolute, would be able to plow right through it, but the Blue Truth would have a piss-poor time dealing with it because of that Truth's nature.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Judoh

But the boat captain made it very clear to Ange that he did make shipments there.

Yeah, but he stopped in the 60's. But for Shannon I doubt they would need so much management to handle her. She isn't being kept secret for starters, since everyone is well aware she is around.