Fate/ Series Q&A

[DaItalianFish]

Originally Posted by Sansker

He looks like a very nasty person even without the crazy shit he pulls on Fate/Stay Night. The difference is that first he is just an asshole then he becomes an arrogant near mass murder crazy idiot. Shinji doesn’t get any sympathy from me because while his background is indeed sad he shows the kind of man he is when he gets power, so really I don’t care how he dies in any route.

But the 'man he is' is a direct result of his upbringing. I know this may be pushing it, but if you can feel bad for Sakura, there should be at least some pity of Shinji.

Spoiler:

In Heaven's Feel, Sakura almost destroys the world, just because she wants to punish it for how the world treated her. This is not because of the corruption or anything; it is what she truly wants. She is fine with the murdering innocents just because of she feels the world treated her poorly.

Granted, her past is a lot worse than Shinji's. Yet even with that, if you can feel bad for her because of her past, and forgive how she murders alot of people, then why not Shinji?

Shinji and Sakura are quite alike. They were both victims of a horrible childhood. Yet for some reason people seem to think it is okay to forgive Sakura, but Shinji is just some loser who deserves anything he got. (not really just talking about you btw, talking about the general opinion of Shinji)

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by DaItalianFish

But the 'man he is' is a direct result of his upbringing. I know this may be pushing it, but if you can feel bad for Sakura, there should be at least some pity of Shinji.

Spoiler:

In Heaven's Feel, Sakura almost destroys the world, just because she wants to punish it for how the world treated her. This is not because of the corruption or anything; it is what she truly wants. She is fine with the murdering innocents just because of she feels the world treated her poorly.

Granted, her past is a lot worse than Shinji's. Yet even with that, if you can feel bad for her because of her past, and forgive how she murders alot of people, then why not Shinji?

Shinji and Sakura are quite alike. They were both victims of a horrible childhood. Yet for some reason people seem to think it is okay to forgive Sakura, but Shinji is just some loser who deserves anything he got. (not really just talking about you btw, talking about the general opinion of Shinji)

Spoiler for Sakura and Shinji:

There is a major difference. Sakura was tortured and raped constantly while under the care of the Matou. Shinji suffers from an inferiority complex and is far too keen to take it out on those around him to make himself feel better. Shinji just chose to be an asshole quite willing and all on his own. Sakura was driven to the breaking point by others and her negative emotions were growing abnormally quickly from Angra Mainyu's presence.

[DaItalianFish]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

Spoiler for Sakura and Shinji:

There is a major difference. Sakura was tortured and raped constantly while under the care of the Matou. Shinji suffers from an inferiority complex and is far too keen to take it out on those around him to make himself feel better. Shinji just chose to be an asshole quite willing and all on his own. Sakura was driven to the breaking point by others and her negative emotions were growing abnormally quickly from Angra Mainyu's presence.

Spoiler:

I do realize Sakura's case is far more extreme. Even with that, however, there is still clear bias against Shinji.

There certainly is a difference between the two. Sakura kept her emotions bottled, whereas Shinji attempted to deal with them. While saying 'Shinji chose to be an asshole' is technically correct, it's not like he was being an asshole for the sake of it. Had he not done that he would have turned out exactly like Sakura.

Even if Sakura was driven to the breaking point, her actions were her own. On the scale of things, Shinji really didn't do much compared to her (not trying to downplay rape).

Again, not saying that Shinji is completely blameless for his actions. He still did some pretty nasty things, and a sad past doesn't make up for that. I just think that saying he deserved death is pretty unfair.

[bhl88]

As long as it's not involving the Holy Grail, Shinji will be friendly. If not, he'll be evil crap.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by DaItalianFish

Spoiler:

I do realize Sakura's case is far more extreme. Even with that, however, there is still clear bias against Shinji.

There certainly is a difference between the two. Sakura kept her emotions bottled, whereas Shinji attempted to deal with them. While saying 'Shinji chose to be an asshole' is technically correct, it's not like he was being an asshole for the sake of it. Had he not done that he would have turned out exactly like Sakura.

Even if Sakura was driven to the breaking point, her actions were her own. On the scale of things, Shinji really didn't do much compared to her (not trying to downplay rape).

Again, not saying that Shinji is completely blameless for his actions. He still did some pretty nasty things, and a sad past doesn't make up for that. I just think that saying he deserved death is pretty unfair.

Spoiler for Sakura:

Yes Sakura had hatred in her which is natural consider the crap she went through but that hatred was increased more than it should have been by Angra Mainyu. Angra Mainyu was feeding those negative feelings that were there and increasing them beyond what they normally are. Sakura would think "I hate this person. I want this person to die" and Angra Mainyu would feed that to the breaking point causing her to actually try to do just that which isn't what she would normally do otherwise even if she thought it.

Shinji was largely ignored by his family for not having the aptitude for magic which normally would be a good thing. He never went through any of what Sakura did. He wasn't possessed by Angra Mainyu. He was jealous, bitter and had a strong inferiority complex for being passed over as heir. His mind was completely his own. He treated everyone like crap because of it. He raped Sakura because of that. He tried to sacrifice the entire school for those selfish reason. He tried to kill people who he once considered friends. and yet these are his own thoughts. Not thoughts fueled by Angra Mainyu like Sakuras. His own pure unaltered thoughts.

[DaItalianFish]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

Spoiler for Sakura:

Yes Sakura had hatred in her which is natural consider the crap she went through but that hatred was increased more than it should have been by Angra Mainyu. Angra Mainyu was feeding those negative feelings that were there and increasing them beyond what they normally are. Sakura would think "I hate this person. I want this person to die" and Angra Mainyu would feed that to the breaking point causing her to actually try to do just that which isn't what she would normally do otherwise even if she thought it.

Shinji was largely ignored by his family for not having the aptitude for magic which normally would be a good thing. He never went through any of what Sakura did. He wasn't possessed by Angra Mainyu. He was jealous, bitter and had a strong inferiority complex for being passed over as heir. His mind was completely his own. He treated everyone like crap because of it. He raped Sakura because of that. He tried to sacrifice the entire school for those selfish reason. He tried to kill people who he once considered friends. and yet these are his own thoughts. Not thoughts fueled by Angra Mainyu like Sakuras. His own pure unaltered thoughts.

Spoiler:

Again, the fact is Sakura still had those thoughts. She doesn't become instantly blameless because of Angra Mainyu. You're also overstating the effect Angra Mainyu had on her. Angra Mainyu was the final push, it wasn't like he was the sole reason she had such negative thoughts.

And you're still comparing him to Sakura. I've said already that Sakura is obviously much more severe, so there is no need to point it out. Saying that it was a good thing he didn't have an aptitude for magic would make sense had he been born into a normal family, but he wasn't. The only family figures he had saw him as completely useless and a disgrace to their name. His own mother died because of his own uselessness. It is hard to understand how Shinji must have felt.

Come the Grail War, Shinji learns that Shirou, the guy who he was 'friends', is a Magus, summoned a better Servant than him, and is friendly with Tohsaka (the girl who rejected him). Shirou was one of the few people he actually believed he was better than, but now he is reminded once again of the fact that he is completely inferior. I'm not trying to say he was right in what he did, but do you not think that would push him past his own breaking point, and push him to commit evil things, all in any attempt to prove to himself that he was not useless? (I realize he raped Sakura even before the war).

In Fate, he doesn't activate the field until Rin punches him. Why did Rin punch him? Because he said bad things about Shirou. Another reminder that he is inferior.

In UBW, he activates field out of jealousy. Once that failed, he is manipulated by Kirei and later Gilgamesh, and eventually breaks completely.

In Heaven's Feel, he is easily stopped by Shirou. Zouken calls him more useless than his father. This pushes him to become even more hateful towards Sakura. Again he fails later on when he kidnaps her. Rin ends up completely shutting him down, and he has another breakdown and ends up trying to rape Sakura. And guess what? Zouken had been manipulating him the entire time, and had orchestrated everything.

Yes, Shinji's mind was his own. But that is what makes him a good character. Sakura is given a backstory that makes her instantly a victim (rape and torture). Shinji is more grey, and needs to be thought about to be understood. He isn't a good guy, but he also isn't a very stable person and is constantly manipulated.

(the coherency of my post might be not that great, wrote this while I was raiding in WoW)

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by DaItalianFish

I suppose this is more of a subjective question, so I don't know if it belongs here. What are your guy's thoughts on Shinji? Do you believe his actions are inexcusable? Do you believe that he deserved the things that happen to him in Fate/UBW/Heaven's Feel?

Personally, I don't think he is character that is completely deserving of hate like most make him out to be.

Spoiler:

His mother was killed solely because she produced him, a child without magic circuits. His father essentially despised him, and only saw him as a symbol of his own disgrace. His grandfather just saw him as a useless child. He was incapable of using Magecraft, yet he still strived to become the heir, only to find he was replaced by a child of another family.

All of this caused him to fabricate a superiority complex, to hide his deep feelings of inferiority. Imagine growing up in an environment where you are constantly reminded of the fact that you are a disgrace to your family. The only person he could have turned to was Sakura, but he only saw her as his replacement. A further reminder that he was useless.

Certainly, it does not make up for the horrible things he did to Sakura, or to the people he had Rider attack, or the school kids. But I just don't believe he is completely hateable. If anything, I feel pity for him. Had he just had someone to help him, tell him that he wasn't useless, he might have turned out to be an okay person.

The reason I'm asking this is because for the chapter I'm working on for my fan fiction I sorta go into this, and I just want to hear peoples thoughts on him before I go ahead with it. I know alot of people simply hate the guy, but I just find it hard to, knowing his background.

I think his actions are definitely inexcuseable and he did deserve what he got, but I also do agree with most of what you said. He is as he is because of the way he was brought up.

Personally, I think Shinji is redeemable (unlike Zouken), but I think he would need to do a hell of a lot to earn that redemption. At very least, he needs to save his sister or die trying.

Originally Posted by bhl88

Anything that's not "Holy Grail War" related, he's a tolerable guy.

Tell that to Sakura....

And, no, he's still a dick even to normal people.

Even Shirou became friends with him (in Fate/Extra, his personality shows: aka not really much of a bad guy).

Well, Shirou became friends with him because Shinji never used to be quite so bad, and because Shirou is somewhat oblivious. Even so, they are very much estranged after Shirou saw his true nature.

Originally Posted by DaItalianFish

But the 'man he is' is a direct result of his upbringing. I know this may be pushing it, but if you can feel bad for Sakura, there should be at least some pity of Shinji.

Spoiler:

In Heaven's Feel, Sakura almost destroys the world, just because she wants to punish it for how the world treated her. This is not because of the corruption or anything; it is what she truly wants. She is fine with the murdering innocents just because of she feels the world treated her poorly.

Granted, her past is a lot worse than Shinji's. Yet even with that, if you can feel bad for her because of her past, and forgive how she murders alot of people, then why not Shinji?

Shinji and Sakura are quite alike. They were both victims of a horrible childhood. Yet for some reason people seem to think it is okay to forgive Sakura, but Shinji is just some loser who deserves anything he got. (not really just talking about you btw, talking about the general opinion of Shinji)

Sorry, but this is a horrendous misinterpretation of Sakura's situation.

Spoiler:

She does not nearly destroy the world because it's "what she wants", she does so because Angra Mainyu is corrupting her. Perhaps it is causing her to act on some usually-deeply-buried desire (which is an understandable desire after how the world has treated her), but the point is that, without Angra Mainyu corrupting her, she suppresses that desire.

Also, Sakura never murdered anyone, even in her Darkened form. The shadow was something she had no awareness of or control over, and it acted mostly out of hunger rather than a desire for destruction. It was no more explicitly evil than a wolf or a tiger would be.

The fundamental difference between the two is that, whilst they both have negative thoughts in response to their circumstances, Sakura does not act on those thoughts in normal situations. Shinji on the other hand does.

That is why Sakura is easily-forgiven and Shinji is much less so.

Originally Posted by DaItalianFish

Spoiler:

Again, the fact is Sakura still had those thoughts. She doesn't become instantly blameless because of Angra Mainyu. You're also overstating the effect Angra Mainyu had on her. Angra Mainyu was the final push, it wasn't like he was the sole reason she had such negative thoughts.

And you're still comparing him to Sakura. I've said already that Sakura is obviously much more severe, so there is no need to point it out. Saying that it was a good thing he didn't have an aptitude for magic would make sense had he been born into a normal family, but he wasn't. The only family figures he had saw him as completely useless and a disgrace to their name. His own mother died because of his own uselessness. It is hard to understand how Shinji must have felt.

Come the Grail War, Shinji learns that Shirou, the guy who he was 'friends', is a Magus, summoned a better Servant than him, and is friendly with Tohsaka (the girl who rejected him). Shirou was one of the few people he actually believed he was better than, but now he is reminded once again of the fact that he is completely inferior. I'm not trying to say he was right in what he did, but do you not think that would push him past his own breaking point, and push him to commit evil things, all in any attempt to prove to himself that he was not useless? (I realize he raped Sakura even before the war).

In Fate, he doesn't activate the field until Rin punches him. Why did Rin punch him? Because he said bad things about Shirou. Another reminder that he is inferior.

In UBW, he activates field out of jealousy. Once that failed, he is manipulated by Kirei and later Gilgamesh, and eventually breaks completely.

In Heaven's Feel, he is easily stopped by Shirou. Zouken calls him more useless than his father. This pushes him to become even more hateful towards Sakura. Again he fails later on when he kidnaps her. Rin ends up completely shutting him down, and he has another breakdown and ends up trying to rape Sakura. And guess what? Zouken had been manipulating him the entire time, and had orchestrated everything.

Yes, Shinji's mind was his own. But that is what makes him a good character. Sakura is given a backstory that makes her instantly a victim (rape and torture). Shinji is more grey, and needs to be thought about to be understood. He isn't a good guy, but he also isn't a very stable person and is constantly manipulated.

(the coherency of my post might be not that great, wrote this while I was raiding in WoW)

Thinking something is not wrong. Everyone has negative thoughts, especially abuse victims. Doing it is wrong, unless you are not sane at the time.

Spoiler:

Even before the game, Shinji had been raping Sakura for years, and was generally abusive towards her. Despite the fact that she did absolutely nothing to him.

Conversely, Sakura refused to do anything bad (consciously) despite having Angra Mainyu heavily influencing her throughout the whole of HF. She constantly fought the effects on her mind. Only Shinji forcing her to kill him in self-defence and to protect Shirou caused her to snap and let AM get more control over her, at which point she was quite clearly not sane by any sensible definition of the word.

As a result, Sakura is pretty much blameless for the events of HF, whereas Shinji is not blameless for how he acted. I do think Shinji can be redeemed, but I don't think it is easy. He needs to atone for everything he did to Sakura. Sakura, conversely, doesn't really need to atone for anything because she never really consciously did anything.

Spoiler:

Hell, even in her Dark form she didn't actually harm anyone. The shadow ate plenty of people, sure, but Sakura was not consciously aware of it or in control of it, and nor was it acting out of malice (it was just hungry). She might have tried (although ending the world was more of a side-effect than her actual goal), but she never did any real harm.

[DaItalianFish]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

-snip-

I may have overstated her blame, but I would not say she is completely blameless.

Spoiler:

Even if she had become 'corrupted', her thoughts were still her own. She was completely aware of what she was doing, and she still was 'Matou Sakura', as Kirei puts it.

(Kirei to Sakura when they meet in the Forest)

"I said there's no need to hide it.
You are not another personality. You were swallowed by the mud and have become addicted to violence, but you are still Matou Sakura. You don't need to prepare another personality to excuse yourself."

A normal person, even 'corrupted' by Angra Mainyu would not do those things. They would still believe killing is wrong. Sakura, however, because of how she views the world, was okay with the killings. You can't alleviate the blame from her simply because Angra Mainyu gave her that push. (yes, pushed. angra mainyu only gave her the push to do these things, he was not in control of her). A good thing to point out is that she does not feel guilty about anything until she finds the truth about Rin. That isn't because of Angra Mainyu or anything, either.

And you're wrong about the Shadow. Sakura was aware of what was going on, she was just in heavy denial. She obviously wasn't controlling the Shadow, but she knew what was happening.

The point is Sakura is not blameless for what she did. Yes, she would have never done those things had she not be pushed by Angra Mainyu. But the point is that she was mostly okay with it. She wanted to punish the world, and Angra Mainyu gave her the ability to do so.

I can tell you are a big fan of Sakura, so you might not want to agree with me. It's just that Sakura does share some blame. Certainly not alot, considering her situation (both her past and Angra Mainyu), but she is not blameless.

I do like your idea of Shinji atoning for his actions.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by DaItalianFish

I may have overstated her blame, but I would not say she is completely blameless.

Spoiler:

Even if she had become 'corrupted', her thoughts were still her own. She was completely aware of what she was doing, and she still was 'Matou Sakura', as Kirei puts it.

(Kirei to Sakura when they meet in the Forest)


A normal person, even 'corrupted' by Angra Mainyu would not do those things. They would still believe killing is wrong. Sakura, however, because of how she views the world, was okay with the killings. You can't alleviate the blame from her simply because Angra Mainyu gave her that push. (yes, pushed. angra mainyu only gave her the push to do these things, he was not in control of her). A good thing to point out is that she does not feel guilty about anything until she finds the truth about Rin. That isn't because of Angra Mainyu or anything, either.

And you're wrong about the Shadow. Sakura was aware of what was going on, she was just in heavy denial. She obviously wasn't controlling the Shadow, but she knew what was happening.

The point is Sakura is not blameless for what she did. Yes, she would have never done those things had she not be pushed by Angra Mainyu. But the point is that she was mostly okay with it. She wanted to punish the world, and Angra Mainyu gave her the ability to do so.

I can tell you are a big fan of Sakura, so you might not want to agree with me. It's just that Sakura does share some blame. Certainly not alot, considering her situation (both her past and Angra Mainyu), but she is not blameless.

I do like your idea of Shinji atoning for his actions.

Again, you are completely and utterly wrong.

Spoiler:

A normal person under the corruption of Angra Mainyu might not act exactly as Sakura did, but they certainly would act in a similar manner.

It is clear from post-HF and from her actions prior to turning Dark that Sakura does not view killing as OK, any more than any other person would. But, Angra Mainyu suppresses such moral scruples, which is why Sakura acts as she did.

Sakura's personality and wishes does affect how Dark Sakura acts, but her morality doesn't, because Angra Mainyu suppresses such things to a very large extent. Any normal person would act similarly, without regard to who they might be hurting, even if their exact goal would be different.

And, yes, AM was controlling her. Not fully, but mostly. It was not simply "giving her a push", it was largely responsible for how she acted.

And, no, Sakura was not aware of the nature of the shadow, even in denial about it. As soon as she realises she resolves to stop it by going and confronting Zouken. Sorry, but you simply do not have a clue what you are talking about.

Go play the game again, because you clearly have not read HF properly.

[DaItalianFish]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Again, you are completely and utterly wrong.

Spoiler:

A normal person under the corruption of Angra Mainyu might not act exactly as Sakura did, but they certainly would act in a similar manner.

It is clear from post-HF and from her actions prior to turning Dark that Sakura does not view killing as OK, any more than any other person would. But, Angra Mainyu suppresses such moral scruples, which is why Sakura acts as she did.

Sakura's personality and wishes does affect how Dark Sakura acts, but her morality doesn't, because Angra Mainyu suppresses such things to a very large extent. Any normal person would act similarly, without regard to who they might be hurting, even if their exact goal would be different.

And, yes, AM was controlling her. Not fully, but mostly. It was not simply "giving her a push", it was largely responsible for how she acted.

And, no, Sakura was not aware of the nature of the shadow, even in denial about it. As soon as she realises she resolves to stop it by going and confronting Zouken. Sorry, but you simply do not have a clue what you are talking about.

Go play the game again, because you clearly have not read HF properly.

Spoiler:

No, AM was not controlling her. No, she in denial about the shadow. She goes to stop Zouken right after the scene Shirou fails to stab her in the night.

…But the hostility was empty.
It's not that he's not feeling anything.
It was a painful emptiness, as if there was a big hole in his chest with cold wind blazing through it.
That made her accept death.
She thought the best possible outcome would be if the boy were the one to stop her.

....

The boy still had determination.
His embracing arms told her that he will accept the crime she committed and will commit.

This is proof that she was well aware of the shadow at that time. She didn't go to stop Zouken because her realization that she was killing, but because of Shirou. She knew well beforehand what was happening.

I'm not going to further this simply because I know you won't agree with me. The general consensus on /a/ is that Sakura is not completely blameless for her actions. I've given evidence from the novel itself that Sakura was Sakura and not being controlled, so feel free to give evidence otherwise.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by DaItalianFish

Spoiler:

No, AM was not controlling her. No, she in denial about the shadow. She goes to stop Zouken right after the scene Shirou fails to stab her in the night.



This is proof that she was well aware of the shadow at that time. She didn't go to stop Zouken because her realization that she was killing, but because of Shirou. She knew well beforehand what was happening.

I'm not going to further this simply because I know you won't agree with me. The general consensus on /a/ is that Sakura is not completely blameless for her actions. I've given evidence from the novel itself that Sakura was Sakura and not being controlled, so feel free to give evidence otherwise.

Spoiler for Sakura:

There is a difference between being controlled and not having control. Sakura just doesn't have control over her own actions due to AMs influence. Sakura has dark thoughts no doubt (and for good reason) but she is a kind person who would never act on them normally. When she killed Shinji she lost control and AM fed on those impulses. They were there but she never meant to act on them but AM made her act on it which she never would've done outside his influence. Sakura tried to make sure that AM couldn't force her to act on it as well but failed because of Shinji which was why AM was able to exert its influence over her.

[DaItalianFish]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

Spoiler for Sakura:

There is a difference between being controlled and not having control. Sakura just doesn't have control over her own actions due to AMs influence. Sakura has dark thoughts no doubt (and for good reason) but she is a kind person who would never act on them normally. When she killed Shinji she lost control and AM fed on those impulses. They were there but she never meant to act on them but AM made her act on it which she never would've done outside his influence. Sakura tried to make sure that AM couldn't force her to act on it as well but failed because of Shinji which was why AM was able to exert its influence over her.

Again, no.

Spoiler:

There is a major difference between control and influence. If someone is controlling someone, it implies that the person being controlled has little or no control over their own actions. In Sakura's case, it would be AM has control over her, and AM could do whatever he wants.

This is clearly not the case.

Sakura has control over her own actions. If she didn't, AM could have easily used her to kill Shirou/Rin/everyone else. But he didn't, considering he doesn't have control over her. He is only influencing her actions.

Even when she killed Shinji, she did not lose control. As Kirei puts it, she was still Matou Sakura. Angra Mainyu did not take control of her body, Sakura was still in complete control. Instead, after Shinji attempted to rape her again, any part of her that was still fighting against AM's influence gave in.

AM influenced her to the point where violence was the best answer, but that does not mean she is innocent. She was still Sakura. She was in control of her actions, and could have stopped at any point. But she didn't. She gave in to her desire to punish the world for how it treated her.

I am not saying it is completely her fault, because she isn't. She would have never done those things without AM, that is obvious, but that is more because of not having the determination that she possessed when AM was influencing her. AM gave her both the ability to carry out her desires and the thirst for violence. She took this chance.

To say she is completely innocent is to ruin her entire character. It makes Heaven's Feel a story about a abused girl who gets forced to commit evil by a big bad guy. That's not what it is about. It's about an abused girl, with deep seeded feelings of jealously/hate towards others, who is manipulated by 'all the world's evils' to the point where she is willing to act on those desires. Shinji is not blameless for killing people because of Zouken's manipulation, and Sakura is not blameless for comitting evil because of AM's manipulation.

The major point I'm trying to get across is the difference between control and influence. Once you understand that, you'll understand that Sakura is not completely innocent.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by DaItalianFish

Again, no.

Spoiler:

There is a major difference between control and influence. If someone is controlling someone, it implies that the person being controlled has little or no control over their own actions. In Sakura's case, it would be AM has control over her, and AM could do whatever he wants.

This is clearly not the case.

Sakura has control over her own actions. If she didn't, AM could have easily used her to kill Shirou/Rin/everyone else. But he didn't, considering he doesn't have control over her. He is only influencing her actions.

Even when she killed Shinji, she did not lose control. As Kirei puts it, she was still Matou Sakura. Angra Mainyu did not take control of her body, Sakura was still in complete control. Instead, after Shinji attempted to rape her again, any part of her that was still fighting against AM's influence gave in.

AM influenced her to the point where violence was the best answer, but that does not mean she is innocent. She was still Sakura. She was in control of her actions, and could have stopped at any point. But she didn't. She gave in to her desire to punish the world for how it treated her.

I am not saying it is completely her fault, because she isn't. She would have never done those things without AM, that is obvious, but that is more because of not having the determination that she possessed when AM was influencing her. AM gave her both the ability to carry out her desires and the thirst for violence. She took this chance.

To say she is completely innocent is to ruin her entire character. It makes Heaven's Feel a story about a abused girl who gets forced to commit evil by a big bad guy. That's not what it is about. It's about an abused girl, with deep seeded feelings of jealously/hate towards others, who is manipulated by 'all the world's evils' to the point where she is willing to act on those desires. Shinji is not blameless for killing people because of Zouken's manipulation, and Sakura is not blameless for comitting evil because of AM's manipulation.

The major point I'm trying to get across is the difference between control and influence. Once you understand that, you'll understand that Sakura is not completely innocent.

Spoiler for Shinji and Sakura:

Even putting it that way Sakura's actions still aren't completely her own and are still heavily influenced by AM presence. Sakura may have had the desire to hurt others but not the will to do so which everyone in the world has had at one point in their life. Without AM the will would still not be there. Shinji however while being UNKNOWINGLY manipulated by Zouken to bring out the darkness in Sakura was still acting on his own in a way that he wanted to act. He hurt the people he wanted to hurt all of his own free will.

[DaItalianFish]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

Spoiler for Shinji and Sakura:

Even putting it that way Sakura's actions still aren't completely her own and are still heavily influenced by AM presence. Sakura may have had the desire to hurt others but not the will to do so which everyone in the world has had at one point in their life. Without AM the will would still not be there. Shinji however while being UNKNOWINGLY manipulated by Zouken to bring out the darkness in Sakura was still acting on his own in a way that he wanted to act. He hurt the people he wanted to hurt all of his own free will.

Spoiler:

You're right about the Shinji thing; wasn't really the best comparison. They both might be able to be connected in the fact that Shinji didn't actually go as far as to kill others until he was given the power to (Rider), just like Sakura didn't go as far as to commit evil until she was given the power to (AM). But Shinji still hurt Sakura even without any of that, so that kinda undermines everything.

Sakura's desire to hurt others was not like the desire 'everyone had at one point in their life', like you put it. It was not a spur of the moment thing, it was a deep seeded desire. AM gave her the power to do so, and she took her chance. This does not mean she is blame free.

At this point we might as well agree to disagree. It is clear that both (you and Cherry_Lover) believe you are right, and I believe I am right. No amount of arguing is going to change that. All we are doing now is restating the same arguments over and over again.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by DaItalianFish

Spoiler:

You're right about the Shinji thing; wasn't really the best comparison. They both might be able to be connected in the fact that Shinji didn't actually go as far as to kill others until he was given the power to (Rider), just like Sakura didn't go as far as to commit evil until she was given the power to (AM). But Shinji still hurt Sakura even without any of that, so that kinda undermines everything.

Sakura's desire to hurt others was not like the desire 'everyone had at one point in their life', like you put it. It was not a spur of the moment thing, it was a deep seeded desire. AM gave her the power to do so, and she took her chance. This does not mean she is blame free.

At this point we might as well agree to disagree. It is clear that both (you and Cherry_Lover) believe you are right, and I believe I am right. No amount of arguing is going to change that. All we are doing now is restating the same arguments over and over again.

Spoiler for Angra Mainyu:

The power was Sakura's not AM. AM was actually a REALLY weak servant in the third war which was how it got trapped in the grail. What it gave Sakura was the desire to go through with her dark thoughts to hurt those who wronged her which admittedly is much more dangerous. Just having that darkness in her does not mean she would've acted on it if AM wasn't influencing her. Killing Shinji was one thing since the idiot insisted on poking a sleeping dragon in the eye but after that she was influenced by AM which influenced her into doing the acts she wouldn't normally do even if the thought was already there.

[DaItalianFish]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

Spoiler for Angra Mainyu:

The power was Sakura's not AM. AM was actually a REALLY weak servant in the third war which was how it got trapped in the grail. What it gave Sakura was the desire to go through with her dark thoughts to hurt those who wronged her which admittedly is much more dangerous. Just having that darkness in her does not mean she would've acted on it if AM wasn't influencing her. Killing Shinji was one thing since the idiot insisted on poking a sleeping dragon in the eye but after that she was influenced by AM which influenced her into doing the acts she wouldn't normally do even if the thought was already there.

Spoiler:

Yes... but she can't activate that power by herself, not at first. Once she accepts the shadow as part of herself, then she has control over it. AM's influence and the events of HF helped her reach that point.

But still, this is getting us nowhere...

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by DaItalianFish

Spoiler:

No, AM was not controlling her. No, she in denial about the shadow. She goes to stop Zouken right after the scene Shirou fails to stab her in the night.

Spoiler:

Yes, she becomes aware of it the night before. And, as soon as she does, she attempts to stop it. She's not aware of it prior to that, if she were she would at very least have acted to prevent it harming Shirou.

Spoiler:

This is proof that she was well aware of the shadow at that time. She didn't go to stop Zouken because her realization that she was killing, but because of Shirou. She knew well beforehand what was happening.

Spoiler:

It's proof that she was aware of it at that point, yes, which is why she goes to see Zouken to put an end to it. She wasn't aware of it until the night before, and once she becomes aware of it she resolves to avoid sleeping and seek out Zouken the next day.

I'm not going to further this simply because I know you won't agree with me. The general consensus on /a/ is that Sakura is not completely blameless for her actions. I've given evidence from the novel itself that Sakura was Sakura and not being controlled, so feel free to give evidence otherwise.

Right, because /a/ is so reliable....

Originally Posted by DaItalianFish

Again, no.

Spoiler:

There is a major difference between control and influence. If someone is controlling someone, it implies that the person being controlled has little or no control over their own actions. In Sakura's case, it would be AM has control over her, and AM could do whatever he wants.

This is clearly not the case.

Sakura has control over her own actions. If she didn't, AM could have easily used her to kill Shirou/Rin/everyone else. But he didn't, considering he doesn't have control over her. He is only influencing her actions.

Even when she killed Shinji, she did not lose control. As Kirei puts it, she was still Matou Sakura. Angra Mainyu did not take control of her body, Sakura was still in complete control. Instead, after Shinji attempted to rape her again, any part of her that was still fighting against AM's influence gave in.

AM influenced her to the point where violence was the best answer, but that does not mean she is innocent. She was still Sakura. She was in control of her actions, and could have stopped at any point. But she didn't. She gave in to her desire to punish the world for how it treated her.

I am not saying it is completely her fault, because she isn't. She would have never done those things without AM, that is obvious, but that is more because of not having the determination that she possessed when AM was influencing her. AM gave her both the ability to carry out her desires and the thirst for violence. She took this chance.

To say she is completely innocent is to ruin her entire character. It makes Heaven's Feel a story about a abused girl who gets forced to commit evil by a big bad guy. That's not what it is about. It's about an abused girl, with deep seeded feelings of jealously/hate towards others, who is manipulated by 'all the world's evils' to the point where she is willing to act on those desires. Shinji is not blameless for killing people because of Zouken's manipulation, and Sakura is not blameless for comitting evil because of AM's manipulation.

The major point I'm trying to get across is the difference between control and influence. Once you understand that, you'll understand that Sakura is not completely innocent.

Spoiler:

You're assuming AM is actually conscious in the form of the shadow, which is isn't. It's clear from all the scenes we see with the shadow (in particular the last one) that it is acting entirely on instinct, without anything really controlling it. It does have Sakura's subconscious impulses (which is why it tends not to like harming Shirou and aims for Rin more), but she doesn't have any conscious control over it. It is just hungry, so it goes after food. There is no malice there at all.

As for Sakura's level of control, yes, in a sense she is in control of what is happening when she is Dark (but not as the shadow), but she is certainly not sane at that point. She is therefore not responsible for what happened. Plus, like I said, she didn't actually do anything in her dark form, and it's pretty clear from how she acts and what she says that she has no particular desire to destroy the world as a whole. Hell, she doesn't even seem to particularly want to kill Rin (if she did, then Rin would have died when she first showed up at the Emiya house to get Ilya). She just wants Rin to acknowledge her.

Originally Posted by DaItalianFish

Spoiler:

You're right about the Shinji thing; wasn't really the best comparison. They both might be able to be connected in the fact that Shinji didn't actually go as far as to kill others until he was given the power to (Rider), just like Sakura didn't go as far as to commit evil until she was given the power to (AM). But Shinji still hurt Sakura even without any of that, so that kinda undermines everything.

Spoiler:

The difference is that Shinji lacked the ability to do it, whilst Sakura lacked the desire to do it. She might have had some feelings of resentment, but she never felt like she wanted to act on them until Angra Mainyu influenced her.

Spoiler:

Sakura's desire to hurt others was not like the desire 'everyone had at one point in their life', like you put it. It was not a spur of the moment thing, it was a deep seeded desire. AM gave her the power to do so, and she took her chance. This does not mean she is blame free.

Spoiler:

Firstly, Sakura didn't have a desire to hurt others. At no point does she ever demonstrate any such thing, even when Dark. The shadow is just hungry, and she does not have any conscious awareness of it in any case.

Secondly, it is not simply a matter of AM giving her the power. If you made normal Sakura super-powered she wouldn't go around killing everyone. What happens post-HF shows that. AM had to influence her for that to happen.

[Sansker]

I am confuse. Wasn't the original question about Shinji?

[Brother Coa]

TLR:

Sakura -

Spoiler for Sakura:

poor girl that had to suffer a lot while being molested by both her brother ( and raped ) and her grandfather who used her to influence the Grail War if HF route. In the end I am surprised that she was able to remain sane in those 10+ years of horror.

Shinji -

Spoiler for Shinji:

he is a guy who was trash-talked by everyone around him and because of this he has grown into douche bag and can compete with Gilgamesh on that level. The only ones who didn't acted like that toward him were Shirou ( because his personality is like that ) and Sakura ( who actually cared about him but he decided to look down at her and molest her nevertheless ).

All in all Matou family is one tragic family indeed,

Spoiler for Reason why:

and it's all Zouken's fault who lost himself in his quest to see the Grail completed so that Justeaze's sacrifice was not in vain. Now he is just an evil old men who enjoy torturing members of his family in his quest to become immortal.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Sansker

I am confuse. Wasn't the original question about Shinji?

Yeah, it was, but then someone brought up that Sakura gets forgiven post-HF, and tried to assert that she was just as bad as Shinji so he should also be forgiven.

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

TLR:

Sakura -

Spoiler for Sakura:

poor girl that had to suffer a lot while being molested by both her brother ( and raped ) and her grandfather who used her to influence the Grail War if HF route. In the end I am surprised that she was able to remain sane in those 10+ years of horror.

Shinji -

Spoiler for Shinji:

he is a guy who was trash-talked by everyone around him and because of this he has grown into douche bag and can compete with Gilgamesh on that level. The only ones who didn't acted like that toward him were Shirou ( because his personality is like that ) and Sakura ( who actually cared about him but he decided to look down at her and molest her nevertheless ).

All in all Matou family is one tragic family indeed,

Spoiler for Reason why:

and it's all Zouken's fault who lost himself in his quest to see the Grail completed so that Justeaze's sacrifice was not in vain. Now he is just an evil old men who enjoy torturing members of his family in his quest to become immortal.

Yeah, that about sums it up, especially the last part.

Spoiler:

Although Zouken doesn't really enjoy torturing members of his family, Kariya aside (he could easily do worse, it's not like Shinji or Byakuya are all that useful to him), he just does it because it serves his purposes. To him, everyone else (especially family members) is just a pawn for him to use to his own advantage. If he has no use for you then you can mostly live freely, but if he does have a use for you then you're expected to jump to it without question and regardless of how it might affect you.