Macross Delta the Movie 2: Absolute LIVE!!!!!! Discussion Thread

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Matts

Still doesn't change the fact that Wind started a war because the NUNS wanted them to stop supplying god knows who with material for weapons of mass destruction. The wind are space nazis. Sorry, boo.

I don't know where you got that piece of information, but let's assume it's correct for the sake of argument. If selling this stuff is Windermere's primary source of income, then NUNs would have to offer some sort of compensation in exchange for Windermere giving this up. It's stupid to expect a country/planet to stop selling their main source of income for free, just because it's inconvenient for you. If NUNs were trying to make them stop by force without giving a damn about all this, then they are the ones in the wrong and deserve a good ass-kicking.

[magnuskn]

Yes, I'm sure if the main export of, say, North Korea is Mega-Explodium, which with miniscule amounts of it can destroy entire cities, the rest of the world would just stand by and let them sell it to whomever. Because that makes sense in bizarro "I love space elf nazis!" world.

[Matts]

Kazu, Grace blew up a planet using fold quartz. Fold quartz was Wind's primary source of income, they were exporting it. Since the Vajra left they were the only place in the Galaxy to get fold quartz from. This was in the show. Again, Grace used fold quartz to blow up Galia IV and the Nuns were right to put restrictions on export of this material because it is the basis for weapons of mass destruction. And what maggy said.


Wind's entire story is based on this idea that they are somehow superior. They were butthurt when they found out that yeah, they are strong, but other races created by the protoculture live longer and have superior technology. They were pissy over the fact that Nuns expected them to send soldiers into their ranks in exchange for tech. This is not only in the show, it's in the wind manga. The wind are all sorts of messed up and nothing justifies what Gramia did, let alone what Roid did and was planning to do. Nobody owns them anything.

The point is, Delta was packed to hell with ideas and fell flat because nothing came of them, none of it were explored. Maybe they'll go for it in the 2nd movie but I doubt it. For one, I noticed Kawamori doesn't like to own up to mistakes, even if Delta was a casualty of executive meddling. But also because milking Walküre would be a better option at this point. We'll see. Won't change the fact the show was a mess though.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Matts

For one, I noticed Kawamori doesn't like to own up to mistakes, even if Delta was a casualty of executive meddling.

Yep, pretty much.

Spoiler for Frontier spoilers:

See: The end of the second Frontier movie, where he corrects the mistake of not ending the love triangle with a conclusion in the TV series, but then sends Alto to another fricking galaxy to give the middle finger to the part of the audience which wanted a real happy ending. And then he put a clue into the credits that Alto eventually returns, but was "surprised" that many people missed that after first or second viewing. Harumpf.

I fully expect the guy to give the windbags no redemption arc at all, but rather double down on their racist tendencies, make Freya's and Hayate's romance even more shallow and completely sideline Mirage. Just because people complained about those aspects of the show. I hope I'll be pleasantly surprised.

Then again, he kinda rescued Ranka from the trash heap in the Frontier movies, so what do I know?

[Matts]

Dunno, maybe they'll give Freya more personality than runpikahoina. I know a lot of people here don't agree with me on Ranka, but she at least had a personality.
Hayate doesn't even have the runrunpikachu going though. Unless you count the novels where he is a creepy stalker. What a great protag.

Seriously, I could go with exploring Walküre more, backstories for the girls and more than one note personalities. It's not like the LT ever existed or the Wind are going to face consequences for their actions. I could go with a queer arc for Makina and Reina (the redheadwhatshisface ship can go away thanks), or Kaname and Arad dealing with their feelings after Messer's loss. And more Mikumo. Hell, even HayaFre could have an arc dealing with Freya dieing young. The serious, none hoina part of their relationship. The interesting part that has stakes and a reason for people to care. With the LT being dead and gone, give Mirage more to do.

[magnuskn]

I think "more Mikuno" is what everyone really wants.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Tbh, after this second Delta movie, I'm ready for a new Macross series with a totally different feel. We already got two entries (Frontier & Delta) that really double down on the idol aspects of the Macross universe. So, is it too much to ask for the next Macross outing to be more focused on the military & exploration side of things? Maybe exploring a rich new alien culture that's not derivative of things that we already have on Earth (No more things like space-apples. That's just a new level of lazy writing) and tone down the idol aspect of the story a bit and go with a new genre of music. Also, please please work on that script and tighten it first before you decide to make a Macross show.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Matts

Kazu, Grace blew up a planet using fold quartz. Fold quartz was Wind's primary source of income, they were exporting it. Since the Vajra left they were the only place in the Galaxy to get fold quartz from. This was in the show. Again, Grace used fold quartz to blow up Galia IV and the Nuns were right to put restrictions on export of this material because it is the basis for weapons of mass destruction.

Look, I'm not arguing whether selling this stuff should be restricted. If you say it should, I take your word for it. My point is, if NUNs did this by force and without offering any sort of compensation, then I can totally understand why Windermere went to war. Losing this stuff must have been a pretty heavy blow to their economy after all. This is the sort of thing that pushes real-life countries to war.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

My point is, if NUNs did this by force and without offering any sort of compensation, then I can totally understand why Windermere went to war. Losing this stuff must have been a pretty heavy blow to Windermere's economy after all.

The only counter argument for this I can even think of in relation to the movie (because this is really off-topic now) is if N.U.N.S' corrupt militia feels possessive over so-called owning Windermere. If so, then it's possible the corrupt N.U.N.S will do all in their power to force Windermere down and into their original agreement while telling the main base of operations back on Earth nothing or flat out lying.

Corrupt N.U.N.S units: "Oh, Windermere? We negotiated, everything's fine."
Earth: "Are you sure?"
Windermere: ...Yes.
Earth: "Okay. Keep us posted."

It's an interesting idea for a movie plot, especially since it wouldn't be the first time N.U.N.S, as an organization, had misinformation spread to them in the franchise. I remember vividly that Frontier did not send any information of the Vajra prior to their S.O.S. around the end of the series and I don't believe anyone in N.U.N.S either received their message or cared until Vajra folded to the other planets.

I'm basically saying: I don't think it will be a plot point but it would be interesting, especially to look into N.U.N.S as an organization outside of side materials. Because up until now, it's been a touchy subject no one likes to talk about in-universe. Although, in Frontier, Alto was really testy about joining the military, specifically N.U.N.S (he gave Catherine an ear full on his distaste early on), so it's likely this has been an ongoing problem in-universe (not side materials) that only Delta has seen the worst of on-screen so far.

So if it'll be a plot point, I'll be interested in how it'll play out if Hayate's dad will still be a plot point as well.

I guess I'll wait and see when trailers are coming out...

[Matts]

They were a medival culture with no tech, a short lifespand and a superiority complex. Nuns gave them technology. They got pissy that in exchange Nuns asked for them to send soldiers into their ranks. I'd say with everything they got restricting the export of weapons of mass destruction was a reasonable thing to request. Wind already got everything. Sorry, they were in the wrong here and ended up proving the Nuns right. By working with terrorists and trying to mindrape the Galaxy a lá Grace (there was a restriction on implants and other stuff that only Galaxy used, again, proving the Nuns right in the end, when Galaxy tried the mindrape thing, gotta love that copy paste plot).

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Matts

They were a medival culture with no tech, a short lifespand and a superiority complex.

Wait, how medieval were they exactly before NUNS came? Are you talking about "carts and horses"-level of medieval?

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Wait, how medieval were they exactly before NUNS came? Are you talking about "carts and horses"-level of medieval?

Probably, given that the nobility still live in castles and villagers dress like the Japanese idea of an idealized version of medieval Europe. They certainly looked like a pre-industrial society.

[Matts]

You have to look it up, there were people translating stuff about Wind culture before Nuns. And keep in mind Ragna's people lived under the water when the first ship arrived.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Matts

They were a medival culture with no tech, a short lifespand and a superiority complex. Nuns gave them technology. They got pissy that in exchange Nuns asked for them to send soldiers into their ranks. I'd say with everything they got restricting the export of weapons of mass destruction was a reasonable thing to request.

They weren't weapons of mass destructions. They were just crystal you could use to make weapons (and a lot of other things as well). And no, NUNs have not right force them to stop selling this stuff. Like I said, this is the sort of thing that pushes countries to war even in the real world.

By working with terrorists and trying to mindrape the Galaxy a lá Grace

That's some interesting headcanon. The true is that no one except Roid knew about this and when Roid implemented this plan everyone switched sides because they didn't agree with it. That's the show I watched. I've no idea what show you watched, but Delta it ain't.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

That's some interesting headcanon. The true is that no one except Roid knew about this and when Roid implemented this plan everyone switched sides because they didn't agree with it. That's the show I watched. I've no idea what show you watched, but Delta it ain't.

Then you have some serious memory problems, or did you forget how they already mind-controlled their entire sector of space?

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Then you have some serious memory problems, or did you forget how they already mind-controlled their entire sector of space?

That's just a war strategy. It's not the same as brainwashing the whole Galaxy.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

That's just a war strategy. It's not the same as brainwashing the whole Galaxy.

Uh-huh. I guess they were going to convince the rest of the galaxy with their apples, then? Because the rest of the galaxy was rightfully coming to get them, because, y'know, they started a war of aggression and were enslaving an entire sectors populations minds and nobody knew if they'd stop there. So, logically the windbags only chance at success was.... more mind-control.

[BetoJR]

Yeah, justifying the mind-control thing is a big no-no, for me.

[Matts]

Stuff to read on Wind
https://forums.animesuki.com/showthr...79#post5880679
https://forums.animesuki.com/showthr...81#post5869581
There is a lot in both threads. Note the Japanese source.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Then you have some serious memory problems, or did you forget how they already mind-controlled their entire sector of space?

Yup. They mind raped a planet (Al Shawhatsit). Who knows how many people died. You do understand, Kazu, that an entire planet's population going blank means planes falling, cars crashing and other mass disasters? The wind committed something akin to genocide. And no, two wrongs don't make a right. Especially how that planet had nothing to do with the bomb that was meant to destroy the big bad mass destruction protoculture weapon they were digging up.
This isn't head canon. You really need to rewatch both Frontier and Delta, sorry. Anyway, I got sources this time. Reapd or choose to ignore, I'm out. I'd rather spend time talking about stuff I like.

[John117xCortana]

Personally I think the NUN never should have made contact with them in the first place. They should have just left them alone.