Nisemonogatari - Episode 08 Discussion / Poll

[Malkuth]

It should have been clear before the 23rd episode of Monogatari, that the second half of episode 12 was the exception and the series is not about the cheesy romantic relation of two teenagers, there are too many shows doing that with various degrees of ecchi to accommodate everyone's tastes.

EDIT: The dental care scene was so absurd and magnificently executed, that is bound to be enjoyable for anyone watching it unbiased. The first arc on the other hand developed the relationships and characters... so of course every other episode was better, but the last one was more enjoyable.

[zato_1one]

Originally Posted by Westlo

And from than on it's spoiler territory... but it's consensus that this is the worst novel of the series and for the most part Kizu is the best, so it can only get better from this point on for people watching it as you are.

Agreed. Well, to tell the truth, I never like Nisemonogatari when I read novel spoiler. But I gotta admit that I have many good laughs while watching it. It's still qualified as comedy series. And it's really good at that. IMO

Originally Posted by Belial13

Seeing so many 10/10 [...] is this the point of this series ? ... if so i should get out now... why not just watch / make hentai / porn

No. It's not the same and that's why many people like it.

[Azuma Denton]

I think that Nise is under heavy pressure as Nise preceed the legendary Bake...
So i guess it has a high standard.

Well, i enjoy Bake for the interaction of its characters, not for the storyline.
As far as episode 8, i still enjoy Nise. But i do admit, Nise is not as good as Bake.


As for Shinbo, he do a perfect job on both Bake and Nise.
I doubt that other director can direct that tooth brush scene as creative as Shinbo~san.


@Malkuth
Wow your ava is on the borderline...

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

It should have been clear before the 23rd episode of Monogatari, that the second half of episode 12 was the exception and the series is not about the cheesy romantic relation of two teenagers, there are too many shows doing that with various degrees of ecchi to accommodate everyone's tastes.

That argument is completely flawed: the fact the monogatari series isn't a conventional romance story doesn't mean it can suddenly indulge into a completely whacky erotic scene, however "subtle" it may be or not.
That's like accepting shows to have DEM and random plot twist, because they don't follow the norm: that's irrelevant.

EDIT: The dental care scene was so absurd and magnificently executed, that is bound to be enjoyable for anyone watching it unbiased. The first arc on the other hand developed the relationships and characters... so of course every other episode was better, but the last one was more enjoyable.

That's a very bold assertion, considering the topic and themes that are core of this scene are nowhere close to be universally enjoyable at all.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

It should have been clear before the 23rd episode of Monogatari, that the second half of episode 12 was the exception and the series is not about the cheesy romantic relation of two teenagers,

You don't consider this episode cheesy? This episode even had a Looney Tunes bit for crying out loud.

This episode also had some of the cheesiest BGM and character interactions I've ever heard/seen. This episode makes Aquarion EVOL look like Shakespearean drama by comparison.

I don't hate this episode, but good grief, this is hardly the revolutionary anime episode some are making it out to be.

EDIT: The dental care scene was so absurd and magnificently executed, that is bound to be enjoyable for anyone watching it unbiased.

No, that's not right. People have legitimate taste differences. You can be unbiased, and still not find that scene enjoyable. Let's be fair here.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Azuma Denton

I think that Nise is under heavy pressure as Nise preceed the legendary Bake...
So i guess it has a high standard.

Well, i enjoy Bake for the interaction of its characters, not for the storyline.
As far as episode 8, i still enjoy Nise. But i do admit, Nise is not as good as Bake.

Nisemonogatari covers like 2 stories over 1 cour, don't tell me people didn't think that some parts were going to get dragged out?

[Eak]

Setting aside the intense toothbrush scene, those colored manga stills in the beginning were fantastic. Were they created by Shaft or are they from somewhere?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

This episode is, word for word, following the novel. I guess the question is if the audience is allowed to demand that entire chapters be removed for animation because they don't think it is good enough for them.

They are both fully clothed. All they did was tooth-brushing. They are siblings who are a little too close for comfort. That's this episode. The fact that this episode was arousing to the audience is just incidental.

I simply can't find a reason for Shaft to NOT animate this episode. What's the reason not to? Morality? Nothing illegal happened!


Serious question: For those who voted 1/10, would you petition to have this episode removed from the DVD release? Are you so offended by what you saw that you wish it was never animated? Do you think less of the author for creating the very chapter of this novel?

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Nisemonogatari covers like 2 stories over 1 cour, don't tell me people didn't think that some parts were going to get dragged out?

Does that excuse it in the end even if there reasons to suspect so?

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

This episode is, word for word, following the novel. I guess the question is if the audience is allowed to demand that entire chapters be removed for animation because they don't think it is good enough for them.

They are both fully clothed. All they did was tooth-brushing. They are siblings who are a little too close for comfort. That's this episode. The fact that this episode was arousing to the audience is just incidental.

I simply can't find a reason for Shaft to NOT animate this episode. What's the reason not to? Morality? Nothing illegal happened!

As far as I know most adaptions don't cover every paragraph of material there is. They don't have time for that and if they do that it usually leads to horrid pacing. This is not a book, this is an anime.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Nisemonogatari covers like 2 stories over 1 cour, don't tell me people didn't think that some parts were going to get dragged out?

Except that people who didn't read the LN or check spoilers/arc titles aren't supposed to know there are only 2 arcs for Nisemonogatari.
And frankly, while Bake was at times draggy, it could keep a certain focus, which is not something you can say for Nise.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Does that excuse it in the end even if there reasons to suspect so?

What would you have them do? Pull material out of thin air and to rewrite the original script?

Because that totally would sit so well with fans of the original.

[Pocari_Sweat]

You know, the other Monogatari ep that had so many 10s was episode 12 of Bakemonogatari, but that on the other hand was "legit good" - Senjougahara x Araragi romance development with a perfectly timed ED song. This? This was just incest otaku pandering to the max. Revolutionary fan-service my ass. I'm sorry but I was not sexually aroused or "Hnnnnnging" as some people like to call it over a bloody toothbrush scene.

That wasn't the only problem with the episode. Araragi rubbing his foot on his sister's head whilst she was begging him to take her virginity (I swear this is what I read from the subs). Yea... no wonder some people in the west think anime is very sexist. Not to mention the fact this episode had no purpose as it didn't develop character and the only worthwhile thing we got was that Araragi agreed to introduce Kanbaru to his sister at the very end of the ep.

I thought the Nadeko ep early on (episode 2?) was bad, but this one takes the "worst episode of Monogatari series" so far.

1/10.

Note: If Medaka Box is anything like the hit or miss Nisemonogatari has been so far, I'm kinda scared...

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Except that people who didn't read the LN or check spoilers/arc titles aren't supposed to know there are only 2 arcs for Nisemonogatari.

You mean to tell me people do zero research into the shows they're watching and just hope for the best?

All I did was to read the synopsis on RandomC and I could figure out there's only 2 stories.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

This episode is, word for word, following the novel. I guess the question is if the audience is allowed to demand that entire chapters be removed for animation because they don't think it is good enough for them.

*Shrugs* They can sell it however they want.

They are both fully clothed. All they did was tooth-brushing. They are siblings who are a little too close for comfort. That's this episode. The fact that this episode was arousing to the audience is just incidental.

I simply can't find a reason for Shaft to NOT animate this episode. What's the reason not to? Morality? Nothing illegal happened!

Assumes people didn't like it because it offenders their moral sensibilities. I'm sure some people did, but that's hardly the only reason.

Serious question: For those who voted 1/10, would you petition to have this episode removed from the DVD release? Are you so offended by what you saw that you wish it was never animated? Do you think less of the author for creating the very chapter of this novel?

I didn't vote it 1/10 but close enough, but I wouldn't miss it. If they include it for completionism, that's fine with me.

I don't think less of the author for making this chapter, but I also don't give him credit for the chapter.

[Azuma Denton]

It will be an endless discussion...
At several adaptation, fans are crying because the adaptation didnt stay true to the novel or there are some scene deleted from adaptation...

Now, SHAFT trying to stay true to the novel, and some fans are also crying...

Well?? It is up to ourselves to give a rating to the episode...
Not everyone will like this episode, but that doesnt mean not everyone will dislike this episode...

[Malkuth]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

That argument is completely flawed: the fact the monogatari series isn't a conventional romance story doesn't mean it can suddenly indulge into a completely whacky erotic scene, however "subtle" it may be or not. That's like accepting shows to have DEM and random plot twist, because they don't follow the norm: that's irrelevant.

You are forgetting Hitagi dressing in front of Koyomi, showing him her underwear after beaten by Suruga, Tsubasa on Koyomi's bike, and don't even want to spoil the amount of completely whacky erotic scenes the author wrote. The fact is that these scenes progress character and plot more than sugar-coated star-gazing that attracted a now very disappointed audience.

As for being random or even a plot twist... you are forgetting that the novel strongly assumes Koyomi's point of view, meaning he is surprised (therefore the writer/director presents the event as random/unexpected) but nonetheless makes all the sense in the world considering the personalities of the characters involved.

This plot structure is what makes me appreciate this series a lot more than other ecchi (not fanservice) shows, like some hentai eroticism is an integral part of the plot and not a medium to boost sales. This episodes just celebrates this features, for better or worse.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

That's a very bold assertion, considering the topic and themes that are core of this scene are nowhere close to be universally enjoyable at all.

The difficulty of anything being universally enjoyable aside, I don't think it's even the objective of neither the writer nor the director. Monogatari is not targeting the masses like other long-running anime, yet it is easier to watch when a fan does not expect to be served his favoured elements and troupes non-stop.

EDIT: Oh! and sorry for the sarcastic tidbit

Originally Posted by Triple_R

You don't consider this episode cheesy? This episode even had a Looney Tunes bit for crying out loud.

This episode also had some of the cheesiest BGM and character interactions I've ever heard/seen. This episode makes Aquarion EVOL look like Shakespearean drama by comparison.

I don't hate this episode, but good grief, this is hardly the revolutionary anime episode some are making it out to be.

The direction of those 4 minutes of tooth-brushing is purposefully cheesy, burned the animation budget, and had the most weird BGM, BUT that was the objective to begin with... and you know what, when 80% gives it a 10/10, it's obviously enjoyable to the majority of the viewers, whether we like it or not.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

No, that's not right. People have legitimate taste differences. You can be unbiased, and still not find that scene enjoyable. Let's be fair here.

And that was my point, some expect to watch a different show, and that is obviously not happening, however much the type on-line.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Nisemonogatari covers like 2 stories over 1 cour, don't tell me people didn't think that some parts were going to get dragged out?

That's misleading, Nise- has the same page count as Bake-

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

You mean to tell me people do zero research into the shows they're watching and just hope for the best?

All I did was to read the synopsis on RandomC and I could figure out there's only 2 stories.

Since when you are supposed to make research on series you watch, especially -sequels-?
I can understand that you may have your expectations betrayed if you check a series blindly without any knowledge. However, it is a sequel with an established writing, so there is really no reason to make "research" whatsoever when you already know it is a proper sequel.

Also, there is no way to tell if the stories themselves -are- eventful or not, unless you are spoiled. Therefore, 2 stories adapted into 11 episodes doesn't automatically mean it -will- be dragged.

Originally Posted by Malkuth

You are forgetting Hitagi dressing in front of Koyomi, showing him her underwear after beaten by Suruga, Tsubasa on Koyomi's bike, and don't even want to spoil the amount of completely whacky erotic scenes the author wrote. The fact is that these scenes progress character and plot more than sugar-coated star-gazing that attracted a now very disappointed audience.

There is a flat out difference here: the prior scenes are vastly shorter than this one, and were basically "quirks" to speak of.
And I really can't call this episode any relevant to character progress whatsoever: it started from a casual premise (as in, Karen hell bent to meet Suruga), but literally sidetracked into a random pandering theme.
I wouldn't have that much problem if it was a much shorter scene, but this is a huge shoehorned fanservice scene taking a full episode, with little relevancy to the current plot.

The difficulty of anything being universally enjoyable aside, I don't think it's even the objective of neither the writer nor the director. Monogatari is not targeting the masses like other long-running anime, yet it is easier to watch when a fan does not expect to be served his favoured elements and troupes non-stop.

I won't disagree with that, but it is the very reason why I disagree with your initial comment, insisting it should be enjoyed if unbiased, which is not a statement that can be applied considering what we were presented here.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

What would you have them do? Pull material out of thin air and to rewrite the original script?

Because that totally would sit so well with fans of the original.

I don't know how to get around it, I'm not the director, but here's the thing... Why excuse the source material it's being adapted from? If the material was suspect the anime will also be suspect. Shinbo just amplified it beyond belief and dragged on a scene in a series that already has been having pacing issues. Instead of mitigating it, he blew it up on the biggest canvas he could find.

I'm aware others disagree though, and that's all apart of watching entertainment. If I had my way, several others would have been unhappy, yet I know at the very least I wouldn't be sad to see it go. That's all I can comment on.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by Azuma Denton

It will be an endless discussion...
At several adaptation, fans are crying because the adaptation didnt stay true to the novel or there are some scene deleted from adaptation...

Now, SHAFT trying to stay true to the novel, and some fans are also crying...

Well?? It is up to ourselves to give a rating to the episode...
Not everyone will like this episode, but that doesnt mean not everyone will dislike this episode...

Regardless of whoever is to blame be it Shinbo for keeping the toothbrush scene in and SHAFTIFYING it or NisioIsin for trashy pointless writing, it was a terrible episode to me. Pointing fingers at who the blame isn't the issue here, it's the fact that this exists.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Since when you are supposed to make research on series you watch, especially -sequels-?
I can understand that you may have your expectations betrayed if you check a series blindly without any knowledge. However, it is a sequel with an established writing, so there is really no reason to make "research" whatsoever when you already know it is a proper sequel.

There's always a reason to do research, especially if it's a show you have vested interest in. And I'm not talking about a full blown intelligence gathering, just the basic to lay down the ground work.

Bah nevermind, this isn't something I want to burn time and reputation points into arguing, consider this topic dropped on my end.