2011-01-05, 20:37 | Link #21281 | |
Winter is coming
Join Date: Aug 2008
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34 was on Battler's side, she wanted to see the "Happy End" that everyone was talking about despite the fact that it was already denied in Red. So 34 and Bern had a battle between great witches. Then Featherine came and killed 34.
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2011-01-05, 20:46 | Link #21282 | ||
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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Of course, if you properly proportioned mystery novels to actual criminal case outcomes, roughly 99% of the mystery canon would be Poirot negotiating a plea agreement.
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2011-01-05, 20:57 | Link #21283 | |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
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The real problem here is, as you said, Kanon's existence at all. As a matter of fact, I could see Kanon's "romance" with Jessica as being total theatrics, and Jessica leading herself on, with Yasu stuck in a sympathetic place where she feels bad for Jessica and sympathizes and as a result can't bring herself to tell Jessica that Kanon is really her/Shannon. That makes total sense. What doesn't make sense is why does Kanon exist? If she has DID, sure, no one should notice and her two personalities could operate seperately with Genji covering for her, but Kanon's existence as a personality makes little sense. She was always isolated from people, sure, ok. So she creates Shannon to be a "friend" in her head, essentially Shannon is her imaginary friend, and she deludes herself into believing she's really Shannon at some point, that's a stretch but I suppose plausible, but Kanon? Nothing happened to create Kanon. If she was lonely there'd be no reason for her to isolate her Yasu persona from her Shannon persona the way she ostensibly did. Psychologically DID branches from trauma causing someone to create another self, usually as a scapegoat or way to do something they can't otherwise do subconsciously? Alright, ok, but Kanon doesn't do anything of the sort. Kanon "falls in love" with Jessica AFTER he starts to exist, and prior to that he has no attachment to the world. He just seems totally pointless and as a result there's no reason for him to exist. I bought it when it was just Shannon and Kanon and one of them was playing out the role of Beatrice, but 3 personalities rather than 2 personalities and one being Beato on the sly is stretching it too far imo. |
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2011-01-05, 21:01 | Link #21284 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Seriously, guys, let's look at the bright side, at least George died.
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Then, how do we go from ShKanon to ShKanontrice? EP3 and EP4. During EP3, Shannon tells us about Battler's promise to her and the English he used. Then, in EP4, when Beatrice calls Battler, the first thing she does is speak to him in English, and then she proceeds to say how she remembers Battler using English phrases back in the day. The only person we knew that remembered Battler's English lines was Shannon. Just with this, you can definitely reason out who Beatrice is, even if you end up with a rather shaky theory. But hey, even the theory about Beato's lineage was very shaky as well - even more so than Beato's identity, and both of them turned out to be correct. No major need for motives here. Of course, Beato's characterisation in the Meta helped as well, but that barely accounted for any motive, I think. Those who were past the "deny the witch" phase and who were observant enough, could probably notice Beato's odd behaviour throughout the episodes. Of course, we couldn't tell any major motive, but we could tell she wasn't evil as she was trying to portray herself and that she's really expecting something from Battler. Well, there were things like her Red about promises, which paired along with Battler's sin could lead us to part of her motive, but all the same, in this situation, the motive is not leading us to Beatrice's identity. Personally, I think the motive in Umineko is purely there for thematic purposes. There are two major themes, in my opinion. 1. Magic: We've seen what magic is, and how some people use it to try to cope with their reality. In addition, we've also seen how this magic is very fragile, and how some people can try making an unnecessary use of the truth to destroy this magic. 2. Understanding: People may do evil things, sometimes even very despicable things, but this doesn't mean a person is entirely evil. Kinzo is a good example. I'm sure I don't need to point out all the things he did, but aside those thing, we learned how much of a lonely man he was, how he had given up on life, and how he clanged to that happiness to the point of madness. The relationship between Rosa and Eva, I think, is the perfect relationship between magic and understanding in the story.
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2011-01-05, 21:18 | Link #21285 | |
Sea Kitty
Join Date: Jan 2011
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So I guess everyone who speculated that Featherine was a monster had a point. I mean, she is Bern's mentor after all.
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2011-01-05, 23:17 | Link #21288 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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I'd just like to say that the motive in Crooked House is the worst motive in the history of the genre. Yes, even worse than Umineko.
Although, if you interpret Beatrice in a certain way you can end up with a similar motive, but that's not the one the game gives us. Quote:
It's actually possible to do something similar with almost anything, though. Remember how we turned "Hachijou Tohya" into "07151129", and that in turn into "Ushiromiya Asumu"? |
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2011-01-06, 03:35 | Link #21289 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
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What am I referring to? Will's mention of Yasu and Lion's ambiguous sex and his pointing out that Zepar and Furfur were a reflection about the truth of Beatrice. The fact that Yasu is raging at the end about having to live with the body she has. The fact that there is absolutely no reason for Kanon to exist on ANY level, narratively or anything else. If not for one thing. There is an issue with Yasu's gender. And please, no BS about Kanon representing Yasu's lesbian impulses towards Jessica. Somehow girls manage to fall in love with other girls without creating an entire male persona in order to justify it to themselves. Love of Jessica wasn't even the reason Kanon was created. And even the reason we're given for creating him--it would have been just as easy to give Shannon a little sister--has to be because Yasu had the OPTION of creating him.
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2011-01-06, 04:23 | Link #21291 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
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The entire point of how it was handled is to let us know that there is something about Yasu's sex, whether it is some degree of intersex or something else, while still allowing Yasu her dignity. After introducing the subject matter like that, it would be very crass to go back and shove a camera up her dress just to provide the readers with an "explanation".
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2011-01-06, 04:31 | Link #21292 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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How about we see one of the final scenes as an allegory? By this scene I mean the "double suicide" one. In this scene we see Battler and Beato submerging to the bottom of the sea. But, how about we take it as Battler venturing into Beato's depths. After all, Beatrice herself said they were from different worlds and that he should return to the light, whilst she ought to return to the darkness. However, Battler decided to venture into the darkness. After that, Battler and Beatrice died... do you catch my drift?
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2011-01-06, 04:40 | Link #21293 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Anyway what we were talking about was a shkanon explanation not Yasu's gender. Explaining how shkanon is possible does not necessarily involve such a revelation. So what exactly are you talking about?
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2011-01-06, 04:46 | Link #21294 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Yasu's gender, and how people deliberately ignore the ambiguity in favor of easier answers that they like better--I'm sorry, bisexual Beato doesn't explain why Zepfur has a penis or why it is necessary for one of them to have a penis--as I originally stated.
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2011-01-06, 04:52 | Link #21295 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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You're free to live inside your own delusions.
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Again why do you bring this up? I'm not talking about Yasu's gender here. She can be male, female, intersex, or whatever, it's irrelevant for the purpose of explaining shkanon. And anyway you can think whatever you like for I care. I believe Yasu is simply female and you don't have the slightest argument to deny this.
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2011-01-06, 05:05 | Link #21297 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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It's more like I have no other choice, since a reality wasn't set on this matter.
The only choice I have is to live inside my own delusion or in someone else's delusion, thanx but I'll choose mine. However if I could choose I'd choose to live in the real world, too bad there's no damn way to know what's real for sure.
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2011-01-06, 05:15 | Link #21298 | |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
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Spoiler for EP8:
By the way, 右代宮, 須磨寺, and 呂ノ上 are not in any databases I know. A certain database showed me 小此木 has 16 ways to read. But the most one in Japan is Okonogi. The name Okonogi in When They Cry series was taken from Mr. Okonogi, the chief editor of Charamel Febri, Ichijinsha. Yes, just trivial... |
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