Code Geass - Spoilers & Speculation (old)

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by Majek

Of course it won't end there since the next ep already has Lancelot on the "offensive" aka falling into a trap.
And Lulu wants to recruit Suzaku, no matter what.

*sigh* if Suzaku actually fake joins the rebellion to capture Zero, his hipocracy will have reached new levels of painfulness.

I really, really hope that's not what "sacrificing himself" meant, seeing as how Lelouch not only would let Suzaku get in a position to screw him over, but he probably wouldn't even be able to kill Suzaku for it. (unlike the more disposable Villetta or Ougi.)

[Thujalvi]

My "theory" about the contract, based on what is shown during that scene in ep. 1 is that the goal is to start ragnarök, the twilight of the gods.

That's all for now.

[Twisted Reality]

Originally Posted by Thujalvi

My "theory" about the contract, based on what is shown during that scene in ep. 1 is that the goal is to start ragnarök, the twilight of the gods.

That's all for now.

I hope not, that's so overdone. I'll be pissed if the only way they can achieve a climax is to threaten the world/universe/galaxy with destruction, bring up a bunch of existentialist conflicts and then some sort of rebirth of the world (i.e. Ergo Proxy, Evangelion, RahXephon, The Vision of Escaflowne, Mai Hime, the Halo video game series, The Matrix...et al.) And they always reference Nordic mythology/Kabbalah/Christianity/Atlantian legends/so forth, usually in an effort to seem arcane and cool. Maybe the one time I can forgive such a cliched plot device was in the Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, which in itself, was as much making fun of the cliche as paying homage to it.

I'll stick with a decent war of succession, a societal revolution and a resolution to major character conflicts, thank you very much. If the Emperor, at some point, butts-heads with Lelouch, I'll be quite happy with the spectacle in of itself. If they have to use a Nordic Apocalypse to tell the story, I will be banging my head on my screen until my frontal lobe is severed. If they introduce philosophy at all, I hope it's limited to the nature of social revolutions, ethics as well as the obvious reference to the French Revolution.

[Twisted Reality]

Well since we're going along with theory that the Geass, more or less, hinges on desires, motives and mode of operation of the character...

Mao sets up a "punishment game" between Lelouch and Shirley, stating that "people should bear their sins." In fact, people who don't confront their internal conflicts are people he despises most. This could be because he's stuck listening to everybody's doubts, fears, etc. Following this line of thought, the plurality of ideas in civilization are always invading his mind every waking moment of his life. He hates other people because their complex problems inevitably becomes his own. They introduce a confusion to him -- he has trouble making sense of it in such a way as to develop a mature sense of personal ethics. He hates people because they won't shut up and solve their own troubles. He can neither take Lelouch's convenient determinism or Suzaku's simple altruism.

In contrast, CC was the only voice of harmony and the only altruistic figure in his life. He is utterly incapable of believing that CC has any shred of hatred or revulsion towards him, and in a way, she represents an ideal society where there are no "accidental sins" or complex ethical problems or conflicts. She is pure and perfect to him.

Were Mao to be a "success," one could speculate that he would have been an empathic and wise statesman.
---
Lelouch, on the other hand, is very much a chess player. A strategic gamesmen. Pieces can and should be sacrificed in order to advance long term goals. Pressure should never be asserted by depending on any one object, but by a multitude of "pieces." And in all cases, he rationally achieves his objective by breaking down the necessary mission "conditions" he needs to achieve. Hence, his power mostly aims at giving him the most pieces that he needs in order to play chess.

He also believes that the ends justify the means. The person who is "right" is defined by whoever can best realize his plans or vision. Ideals are well and good, but they mean nothing if you do not have the strength to bring it about. Good society, freedom and preservation of family are merely goals in a game comprised of pieces and available resources. Both sides in any contest of strength inevitably come into conflict because of the competition for resources or because of the interference generated by too many plans operating at once. In other words, Lelouch is a strong proponent of determinism.

Like the Emperor, he believes the winner is "right," unlike the Emperor, he does not view the winner as having a dvine right nor view equality as a sin. Rather he views the trappings of the Brittanian aristocracy as well as their claim to a "divine right," to be indicative of an unforgiveable weakness. This is partially because his mother was killed by nobles who were so threatened by a commoner that they could not act any other way. By expansion, people who use their power to prey upon the underprivileged, are themselves, unforgiveably weak and should be brought to justice.

[Majek]

Originally Posted by ashlay

*sigh* if Suzaku actually fake joins the rebellion to capture Zero, his hipocracy will have reached new levels of painfulness.

I really, really hope that's not what "sacrificing himself" meant, seeing as how Lelouch not only would let Suzaku get in a position to screw him over, but he probably wouldn't even be able to kill Suzaku for it. (unlike the more disposable Villetta or Ougi.)

he's not capable of faking it. and he wouldn't fake it anyway just like Lulu doesn't want to geass him.

Lulu's biggest mistake was that he didn't reveal to Suzaku taht he was Zero when he rescued him, he could've persuaded him back there and then
or he woud've failed and Suzaku would then die fast because he wouldn't want to hurt his friend

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by Majek

he's not capable of faking it. and he wouldn't fake it anyway just like Lulu doesn't want to geass him.

Lulu's biggest mistake was that he didn't reveal to Suzaku taht he was Zero when he rescued him, he could've persuaded him back there and then
or he woud've failed and Suzaku would then die fast because he wouldn't want to hurt his friend

heh, now you're the one doubting just how damaged Suzaku is as a human being. he can't leave Britannia, because to do so would mean he'd have to admit to himself that he killed his father for nothing. he just can't do it, not even for his friend.

besides, Suzaku exists to show just how much more interesting Lelouch is as a mecha protagonist than the standard one. we can't have him dying yet. though in a way I'd kinda be happy if he disappeared from the stage, and Suzaku has a death wish anyway. 0_o

[Twisted Reality]

Originally Posted by ashlay

heh, now you're the one doubting just how damaged Suzaku is as a human being. he can't leave Britannia, because to do so would mean he'd have to admit to himself that he killed his father for nothing. he just can't do it, not even for his friend.

besides, Suzaku exists to show just how much more interesting Lelouch is as a mecha protagonist than the standard one. we can't have him dying yet. though in a way I'd kinda be happy if he disappeared from the stage, and Suzaku has a death wish anyway. 0_o

Well seeing as how Euphemia is likely to make Suzaku his consort, I doubt he'll be imprisoned or incapacitated for long (much less killed).

Rather we'll be treated to the heartwarming story of a strapping young lad sticking to doing the "right thing," and in turn, attracting good people in powerful places that will move to support him. It's the triumph of the "everyman." Nevermind the thousands of other strapping young lads who got hosed in Shinjiku or in Brittania's invasion, he's SPESHUL!

Despite being a clueless sod, he manages to get a cutting edge-mech that's the brainchild of a mad genius, scores a accidental date with the princess (who happens to share his ideals) and foils Zero's plans by being in the wrong place at the right time. (And it's strongly implied that Eumphemia will pick him to be her "knight.") The fact that he might've killed his father is irrelevant because he will resolve his father issues and strengthen his resolve that he's "doing the right thing."

*ugh*

[VetaMega]

I wonder if Geass has to be called geass for I think it's a reference to the word geas. To create geases is an ability used in many fantasy books having to do with making a vow. I think. CC just has the ability to manifest abilities of others. Lelouch figured out the name of his ability - even CC was surprised by the name.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geas

mao's powers have nothing to do with making a vow or obligation.

[etothex]

I feel that Lelouch has made too many mistakes concerning Suzaku. I agree with Majek that he should have shown his face to Suzaku in ep 4. At the very least he could have made a more convincing argument about fighting for Japan's freedom and saving the weak or something. I was especially disgusted with LL in ep 6. While conversing with Suz on the roof, he should have made it seem like Zero came in and saved him from the Britannian army. He had opportunities to try and at least affect Suz's opinion (like in ep 9), but he seems oddly reluctant to get into any sort of argument with Suz. (In ep 16 LL got all excited that Suz was coming to lunch, wtf, so much yaoiness, stop it LL)

I'm sure we can all understand his reluctance to be fight his friend, but it comes down to Suzaku being a big obstacle to LL's goal of creating a safe place for Nunnally. Between Suzaku and Nunnally we all know who LL will pick. He needs to figure that out NOW, not later. It's not like he has to eliminate the doofus either, just prevent him from piloting.

The show is wasting FAR too much time on fights that have no resolution, and Zero trying to capture Lancelot is just going to be another incident. Forget it already. He doesn't even have to use his GEASS. Just go to school, slip him a mickey, have some OoBK people come and pick him up, tie him up solidly, and deliver him to Kyoto, where he can be guarded and dealt with however they see fit.

PS I'm with those who believe Mao picked up the word GEASS from Lelouch. A geas as we know is a compulsion, so it fits well with LL's ability, but does not really describe Mao's ability.

[Deathkillz]

and the shocker would come if the writers actually kills him off even after knowing and understanding more of his stance i still think that he needs to die...a great way to shock the audience is to make it 100% sure that he cant be killed off...then *BAM* hits ya in the guts

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by etothex

I feel that Lelouch has made too many mistakes concerning Suzaku. I agree with Majek that he should have shown his face to Suzaku in ep 4. At the very least he could have made a more convincing argument about fighting for Japan's freedom and saving the weak or something. I was especially disgusted with LL in ep 6. While conversing with Suz on the roof, he should have made it seem like Zero came in and saved him from the Britannian army. He had opportunities to try and at least affect Suz's opinion (like in ep 9), but he seems oddly reluctant to get into any sort of argument with Suz. (In ep 16 LL got all excited that Suz was coming to lunch, wtf, so much yaoiness, stop it LL)

I'm sure we can all understand his reluctance to be fight his friend, but it comes down to Suzaku being a big obstacle to LL's goal of creating a safe place for Nunnally. Between Suzaku and Nunnally we all know who LL will pick. He needs to figure that out NOW, not later. It's not like he has to eliminate the doofus either, just prevent him from piloting.

The show is wasting FAR too much time on fights that have no resolution, and Zero trying to capture Lancelot is just going to be another incident. Forget it already. He doesn't even have to use his GEASS. Just go to school, slip him a mickey, have some OoBK people come and pick him up, tie him up solidly, and deliver him to Kyoto, where he can be guarded and dealt with however they see fit.

PS I'm with those who believe Mao picked up the word GEASS from Lelouch. A geas as we know is a compulsion, so it fits well with LL's ability, but does not really describe Mao's ability.

*sigh* we only say this because we know Suzaku is piloting the Lancelot.

The most important thing you have to remember when dealing with Lelouch and Suzaku is that Lelouch does not know who is piloting Lancelot. and even more, he has no reason to suspect it's Suzaku:
episode 1: Lelouch sees Suzaku as a foot soldier.
episode 4: Suzaku's going to be executed.
episode 6: "I've been transfered to the technology department, so it's not that dangerous"
nothing about Knightmares, nothing about fighting Zero. now with these facts, why would Lelouch possibly think Suzaku would be piloting Lancelot? who executes the pilot of an experimental mech? 11's aren't even supposed to be able to pilot Knightmares for that matter.


well, anyway, point is, Lelouch currently has absolutely no concept of Suzaku's worth. he doesn't know that Suzaku's been getting in his way, that Suzaku is an ace pilot on the level of Kallen (or higher), or any of that. currently, Suzaku's only worth to Lelouch is as a childhood friend. There's no need for Suzaku to join Lelouch, and as far as Lu is concerned, Suzaku is in R&D now, meaning they won't be fighting each other anyway.

Lelouch made his offer in episode 4, Suzaku said that he didn't believe in Lu's methods, and that he wouldn't help him. and that was the end of it for Lelouch (while there was still that desire, he'd been turned down, and Suzaku was in no way integral to the War in Lelouch's eyes). really, the only reason Lelouch is even going to try and seek Suzaku again is: a) because suzaku killed his own father, meaning he doesn't really adhere to "ends don't justify means" b) because the second Lu finds out Suzaku is piloting the Lancelot, his worth to Lu in the rebellion skyrockets.

[Majek]

I't because he is is friend that he should make him join when he only had his ragtag band of rebels. Had he joined Lulu would've definitely talked ot Suzaku about everything and thus learning about Lancelot and everything else and at the same time he would have another person he could trust. EVERYTHING would've been different.

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by Majek

I't because he is is friend that he should make him join when he only had his ragtag band of rebels. Had he joined Lulu would've definitely talked ot Suzaku about everything and thus learning about Lancelot and everything else and at the same time he would have another person he could trust. EVERYTHING would've been different.

but at the same time, it's because Suzaku is a friend that Lelouch let Suzaku choose to do what he wanted.

if Lelouch had wanted Suzaku as one of his "pieces", he probably would have forced the matter. but again, In Lelouch's eyes, Suzaku had no more value than the terrorists in terms of a piece, which really means Suzaku has no value as a piece at all. The very nature of the relationship, and how Lelouch views it, is exactly why Lelouch didn't manipulate Suzaku into joining.

[quina]

If Susaku joined Lulu since ep 4... this series might have ended long ago with Cornalia dead, Euphie die from falling from roof top and every thing...

oh well... anyway, we know from the spoiler that Lulu will try his hardest to have Susaku join him after learning the truth about him and lancelot. He is using tactics, losing men just to lure lanceLot out. I can understand why Lulu refuse to geass susaku into joining him, but at least why didn't he geass him 'not' to oppose Zero in this rebeliion or something. His job would be easier, neither Susaku or him will be hurt.

[evil|plushie]

Maybe Lelouch originally didnt want to drag Suzaku into the whole rebellion since Suzaku was a friend. I mean, after the first time and it was made clear that Suzaku was in no danger of being executed, he never did try to persuade Suzaku to join him again.

[Twisted Reality]

Originally Posted by quina

If Susaku joined Lulu since ep 4... this series might have ended long ago with Cornalia dead, Euphie die from falling from roof top and every thing...

oh well... anyway, we know from the spoiler that Lulu will try his hardest to have Susaku join him after learning the truth about him and lancelot. He is using tactics, losing men just to lure lanceLot out. I can understand why Lulu refuse to geass susaku into joining him, but at least why didn't he geass him 'not' to oppose Zero in this rebeliion or something. His job would be easier, neither Susaku or him will be hurt.

Well it was already covered by ashlay that Lelouch didn't actually *know* that Suzaku was Lancelot's pilot or was doing anything other than working in R&D.

[quina]

Well it was already covered by ashlay that Lelouch didn't actually *know* that Suzaku was Lancelot's pilot or was doing anything other than working in R&D.

I was talking about after episode 17+. Lulu learned about everything by then. We know that from spoiler interview. I was saying that Lulu should just geass susaku not to oppose him if he really doesn't want to geass susaku to join him...

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by quina

I was talking about after episode 17+. Lulu learned about everything by then. We know that from spoiler interview. I was saying that Lulu should just geass susaku not to oppose him if he really doesn't want to geass susaku to join him...

Actually, thus far neither option are possible for Lelouch, as Geass doesn't work like that right now. Future? Who knows.

If Lulu can Geass someone into swearing loyalty, he would have a much bigger army right now. Geass someone into not opposing him is the same; permanent obedience is not a viable command, in the same way you can't wish for more wishes from a Genie.

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

Maybe Lelouch originally didnt want to drag Suzaku into the whole rebellion since Suzaku was a friend. I mean, after the first time and it was made clear that Suzaku was in no danger of being executed, he never did try to persuade Suzaku to join him again.

well that might be because lulu thinks that suzaku has become a dog for britannia already and seen as he doesnt have any special skills anyway gave up trying to persuade him to join ~ but tbh its not that easy to get him into the club anyway...lulu does know about suzaku's strong sense of justice and after that incident where suzaku told zero to stop things after he got his ass saved by him lulu must have concluded that hes hopeless and would be fine to leave him in britannia as long as he inst a bother to him ~ oh boy was he wrong

well ill guess that after learning suzaku's true identity lulu has realized how useful he can be 1) using a suzaku x kallen combo = OMG O.o 2) the white frame will no longer be standing in his way...

i believe lulu not using geass to be a good thing...it just shows that hes not yet at the stage where hes overconfident about his geass powers...but will he turn power hungry and move to the dark side? O.o

[etothex]

Originally Posted by ashlay

*sigh* we only say this because we know Suzaku is piloting the Lancelot.

The most important thing you have to remember when dealing with Lelouch and Suzaku is that Lelouch does not know who is piloting Lancelot. and even more, he has no reason to suspect it's Suzaku:
episode 1: Lelouch sees Suzaku as a foot soldier.
episode 4: Suzaku's going to be executed.
episode 6: "I've been transfered to the technology department, so it's not that dangerous" nothing about Knightmares, nothing about fighting Zero. now with these facts, why would Lelouch possibly think Suzaku would be piloting Lancelot? who executes the pilot of an experimental mech? 11's aren't even supposed to be able to pilot Knightmares for that matter.

Lelouch made his offer in episode 4, Suzaku said that he didn't believe in Lu's methods, and that he wouldn't help him. and that was the end of it for Lelouch

I should have separated my thoughts more. You'll notice in the FIRST paragraph i said nothing about the lancelot. I'm talking about the fact that he doesn't seem happy with the fact his friend is a britannian soldier, nothing to do with his being the pilot. If you had a valued friend who worked with the enemy so to speak, wouldn't you try and convince him otherwise?

You'll recall in the conversation in ep 4, Zero only asked him to join him to fight britannia, because britannia is evil and not worthy of Suzaku's support. Suzaku declined and went to turn himself in, to which Zero only responded, you fool, you'll die!!! With his mind, I'm sure Lelouch could have thought up at least another argument or two, better than fool, you'll die.

It is obviously harder to convince Suzaku of Britannia's worthlessness as Zero, but he can still persuade him as Lelouch.

In ep 6, Lelouch has a chance to cast Zero in a better light to his friend, so why didn't he make use of it? Instead it was "oh i would have died if you hadn't covered for me blah blah".

Same with the dicussion in episode 9. He just listens to Suzaku's fundamentally flawed logic (can't complain about police being ineffective until they've tried their hardest, wtf is that), and doesn't comment.

For the incidents i mentioned and in the earlier post, I'm merely saying how if LL wanted to sway his friend's position, he had plenty of opportunities, so why not make use of them. But he seems very unwilling to confront Suzaku. And that really annoys me. Mao has commented on LL's sharp tongue, but it's like he loses all eloquence whenever with Suzaku. It's not like he has to convince him in one instance, just try to weaken his resolve.

Although maybe since convincing Suzaku would be a merely personal desire, he has set it aside for more important/immediate goals.

The rest of my post was ranting about how the next few episodes (after 17 and the discovery of his identity?) are gonna be tedious.