Dating

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

Japan’s love affair with pornography killing “real sex” drive



Thoughts?

I wouldn't be surprised if this is it for some people, but I don't think it explains Japan's problem. My guess is that the issue in Japan relates to their work ethic and stress levels. I can tell you that's what happened to me and my wife. Without going into too much detail, her sex drive dropped fairly quickly after starting medical school (a high-pressure environment where you're studying during every waking moment). It would pick up when she had vacations, but immediately would drop again upon returning to school. I started medical school three years after her, and while the change hasn't been as drastic (possibly because I'm a bit more laid back than my wife is and because my sex drive was higher to begin with), my sex drive has also dropped.

When it comes to having children, I would think that economic factors and a bit more come into play. People aren't becoming financially independent until their mid- to late-20's, which is later than it used to be in society's history. They're also making less and are steeped in debt. There's also a hypothesis that "maturity" is being delayed. Put those all together, and people are going to want to hold off on having children. Delaying children used to be something very common to people who went into careers involving a lot of schooling (such as medicine), but as more people go into higher education and pick up debt, it makes sense that those people would also hold off. Hold off for long enough, and perhaps they figure that they're too old, or have become comfortable with a life free of children.

I'm also skeptical that pornography can turn people off to real sex. If you've never had sex then it can probably give you some unrealistic expectations, sure... but watch enough pornography (and/or have enough sex) and porn begins to lose its appeal. It becomes fairly clear when people are acting, or where body augmentation has occurred. If it seems too fake and you notice it, then it isn't arousing.

[LeoXiao]

I think that while porn or masturbation may satisfy purely sexual needs, you still can't get feminine company out of your right hand. I don't know how it is for other guys but even if you have porn it would still suck to not be in a relationship with an actual female.

[Paradoxine]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

I wouldn't be surprised if this is it for some people, but I don't think it explains Japan's problem. My guess is that the issue in Japan relates to their work ethic and stress levels. I can tell you that's what happened to me and my wife. Without going into too much detail, her sex drive dropped fairly quickly after starting medical school (a high-pressure environment where you're studying during every waking moment). It would pick up when she had vacations, but immediately would drop again upon returning to school. I started medical school three years after her, and while the change hasn't been as drastic (possibly because I'm a bit more laid back than my wife is and because my sex drive was higher to begin with), my sex drive has also dropped.

When it comes to having children, I would think that economic factors and a bit more come into play. People aren't becoming financially independent until their mid- to late-20's, which is later than it used to be in society's history. They're also making less and are steeped in debt. There's also a hypothesis that "maturity" is being delayed. Put those all together, and people are going to want to hold off on having children. Delaying children used to be something very common to people who went into careers involving a lot of schooling (such as medicine), but as more people go into higher education and pick up debt, it makes sense that those people would also hold off. Hold off for long enough, and perhaps they figure that they're too old, or have become comfortable with a life free of children.

I'm also skeptical that pornography can turn people off to real sex. If you've never had sex then it can probably give you some unrealistic expectations, sure... but watch enough pornography (and/or have enough sex) and porn begins to lose its appeal. It becomes fairly clear when people are acting, or where body augmentation has occurred. If it seems too fake and you notice it, then it isn't arousing.

For what it's worth, I agree with you. I don't think porn is the problem really. I think the problem is apathy. Why bother getting a partner? Why should I go out of my way? As long as I have a job and I can support myself, that's enough. If not that, then also factor in the presumably growing number of socially inept people and the trend makes sense, at least to me. I think most of the time the simplest explanations are the most accurate in terms of human nature. Regarding financial situations influencing birth rates: maybe, but personally I don't think that is really the main factor. Poor people have been having children since the beginning of civilisation. We wouldn't even be here otherwise, much less would we be in the kind of world we are now, where so many consumer product's are produced in China and the like. If they really, really wanted children, they'd have them and simply deal with the financial difficulty that would invoke.

Ultimately, your employment status and how much you earn or possess dictates your position in society. Once people have attained what's required to 'live', who's to say that they bother looking for more? Most people manage it, but is it impossible that there is a growing portion of the population working 9-5 unwilling to try or just too tired? I may be wrong but I don't think it's bad that more people question the need for relationships or at the very least having children. Having children for the sake of it seems to still be a problem imo. Personally, anime has actually enabled me to further distance myself from real life social encounter's, though that's sort of neither here nor there as I was already half way across the solar system regarding socialising.

I'd also suggest that yet another reason for the dropping birth rates (speaking generally, not Japan in particular) is that...dare I say it, less people falling in love/interested in each other? I don't think it's too far fetched to be honest. Especially in the past, for a very long time getting married, having kids etc was essentially a societal requirement. Apart from social pressure, there were and still are financial incentives. I'm stretching a bit here but I can't help but think of the times in history when children were bred solely to be a heir and or simply work in order to sustain the family and be grateful about it. I think 'bred' was the right word to use there in all honesty.

Those are my opinions at least, this topic has interested me, might write something up on it, nothing else to do of course. Also of note is that I used no statistics for the above, so feel free to contradict me. FYI so far I haven't partaken in any social events during summer, not that I was invited to any. I guess you could say I'm socially inept too.

[DonQuigleone]

One thing I will say, ready access to erotica/pornography does enable apathy concerning relationships, even if it's not a direct cause of it.

I wonder how this trend will effect society, say, 50 years from now, however. It will be... interesting.

[MakubeX2]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

One thing I will say, ready access to erotica/pornography does enable apathy concerning relationships, even if it's not a direct cause of it.

Something to think about here. In Japan, people still pays a lot to get attention at Host/Hostress Club and Maid Cafe. Why ?

I wonder how this trend will effect society, say, 50 years from now, however. It will be... interesting.

Humanity will endure, that's for sure.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Paradoxine

Regarding financial situations influencing birth rates: maybe, but personally I don't think that is really the main factor. Poor people have been having children since the beginning of civilisation. We wouldn't even be here otherwise, much less would we be in the kind of world we are now, where so many consumer product's are produced in China and the like. If they really, really wanted children, they'd have them and simply deal with the financial difficulty that would invoke.

I disagree with this, but the reason goes beyond finances. One could argue that people from a low socioeconomic status tend to have a hard time breaking out because they're handicapped based on their upbringing. Many people in that bracket tend to have children very young, and without a stable family unit. This perpetuates itself. It's harmful enough on its own, but it makes it very difficult for people to advance their careers. Without much money, without much time (or desire, or planning) for their children, and without maturity and solidified values to provide good role models for their children, what are the chances that their children will grow up to do things differently?

In a way, it comes down to planning for the future. One would expect that people of a higher socioeconomic status would be educated and forward-thinking enough to avoid having children until their career was stable, they had a stable significant other, and were in a position where they could provide a good environment to raise their child. People who don't think ahead, and who don't exercise caution in their sexual activities, well...

Originally Posted by Paradoxine

I'd also suggest that yet another reason for the dropping birth rates (speaking generally, not Japan in particular) is that...dare I say it, less people falling in love/interested in each other? I don't think it's too far fetched to be honest.

It's possible... but I think there's more to it than that. Did people in the past really love each other to a greater extent, and did more people love in general? I have no data to support anything, but I doubt it. Rather, women in the past were stuck in their marriages. They did not have careers, and the notion of a "woman's duty" to her husband was fairly strong. If a woman didn't marry, she had nothing.

Today, women are far more empowered. Divorce is no longer taboo, and women are able to financially support themselves. That women are working and spending a lot of their time and energy outside of the home likely causes some strain on the family unit. It means that even when a man has time off from work, his wife might either be working, or too exhausted from her own work to spend time with and/or have patience for her husband. That, combined with the ease of divorce (meaning that the commitment to marriage isn't as rock-solid as it once was), means that relationships today require much greater care and diplomacy than they used to.

Which also assumes that people want to enter relationships at all. The high rates of divorce have cheapened the meaning of marriage, and I get the impression that the bigoted attitudes of organized religion toward marriage have turned some people off to it, as well. And then there's the whole commitment thing... a few years ago I read an article discussing this issue. They interviewed young Japanese women, who basically said that they didn't want to even think about settling down until their 30's or 40's. They were having too much fun living freely, and didn't want to be dragged down by the traditional expectations that they would be spending most of their time and energy to home-making once married.

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

One thing I will say, ready access to erotica/pornography does enable apathy concerning relationships, even if it's not a direct cause of it.

How does it enable apathy?

[sona-nyl]

Also don't forget that in japan women are expected to quit working when they have children. This is probably one of the most important reason for japan's lowered birth rate.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by MakubeX2

Something to think about here. In Japan, people still pays a lot to get attention at Host/Hostress Club and Maid Cafe. Why ?

I would argue that host clubs and maid cafe exist in the same world of relationship substitutes that galgames occupy. People often go to these things because they have no intimate relationships of their own, and it's an easy (though expensive) way to get the feeling of a relationship with none of the effort and responsibility of a real one. If you get stuck in a chain of using these things, you're not really in state where you're psychologically able for a functional real relationship. It's a comfortable hell to live in, and so difficult to bring yourself from escaping from, as things get more unpleasant before they get better.

Originally Posted by Ledgem

It's possible... but I think there's more to it than that. Did people in the past really love each other to a greater extent, and did more people love in general? I have no data to support anything, but I doubt it. Rather, women in the past were stuck in their marriages. They did not have careers, and the notion of a "woman's duty" to her husband was fairly strong. If a woman didn't marry, she had nothing.

Love was rarely a factor, familial politics(after all, this is not an era of the nuclear family, a marriage was the joining of two families, if both families hated each other...) and general survival. Men and women could not easily survive on their own. Women obviously needed their husbands earnings, but men likewise needed their wive's myriad housecare skills (most significantly clothesmaking and food preparation). These, and others, were not insignificant tasks.

How does it enable apathy?

It makes such a lifestyle tolerable. Without these various entertainments, it would be difficult to tolerate singlehood for such long extended periods.

[MakubeX2]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

I would argue that host clubs and maid cafe exist in the same world of relationship substitutes that galgames occupy. People often go to these things because they have no intimate relationships of their own, and it's an easy (though expensive) way to get the feeling of a relationship with none of the effort and responsibility of a real one. If you get stuck in a chain of using these things, you're not really in state where you're psychologically able for a functional real relationship. It's a comfortable hell to live in, and so difficult to bring yourself from escaping from, as things get more unpleasant before they get better.

It makes no dense based on your previous argument. True apathy would dictate that one spend a couple of thousand yen on porn or game that one can watch or play over and over. A visit to a club for just an hour can easily cost ten times more. So why bother ?

[csuree]

I came back only for one comment.....
because i saw that apparently no one reacted to Tigress' post and it seems like by your ignorance you are approving her feelings of resentment towards guys from this thread.

i think on the behalf of the people here i have to apologise, and also to scold you a bit Tigress.

1) the comment on how some of you view the life of a woman is quite old-fashioned and chauvinist. even if she gets older she is not obliged to live her life like society dictates. we live in a free world where girls have the same rights as us.

2) Tigress you shouldn't get too worked up on this matter, everyone has different views about it, but don't take it to heart, like hell you have 8 years to live like you want. the whole life is yours to decide. So don't leave because of some other people's opinions. you know what they say about opinions?
They are like the hole on our a$$. Everyone has one, but no one is interested in the other's.

so, don't leave us like that....
and guys......proper apology.....or at least comment on it....

this might be a "Dating" thread, but it is also about relationship between the genders. and it looks like the relationship between genders has gone a bit sour.

so, farewell, i'll be back when i settle some important personality problems and become truly happy with myself.

and no hard feelings from any side okay?

be good...smile.....because a smile is only an upside-down frown. :-(-:

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

It makes such a lifestyle tolerable. Without these various entertainments, it would be difficult to tolerate singlehood for such long extended periods.

Interesting theory. I don't know that I agree with it, but I can't outright disagree with it, either.

Originally Posted by csuree

because i saw that apparently no one reacted to Tigress' post and it seems like by your ignorance you are approving her feelings of resentment towards guys from this thread.

I think she misunderstood what was being said. It's not uncommon over the internet, and even in life: we perceive things based on what's going on around us. If people have been hassling Tigress about settling down and starting a family in her own life (as an example), she could easily have interpreted posts here as saying the same thing. But I'm largely replying because I wanted to fix this:

Originally Posted by csuree

you know what they say about opinions?
They are like the hole on our a$$. Everyone has one, but no one is interested in the other's.

It's "opinions are like ass holes - everyone has one, and they all stink."

[Tigress]

No one has been hassling me in my real life. I am too young for that yet I think. My mother even agrees with me. The problem I had with Don was him jumping all over the fact I said that I feel it is time enough waiting til 30 to have kids when my life is settled and I have a job and money and a career, hopefully! I don't see 30 as being old and my real life female friends range from 18-35 from a tennis club that I am involved in. One of the 32 year olds in our group I would kill to look like her, so I resent someone saying a woman of that age is old and decrepid. Men age the same as women and some look better than others. Just cuz men can have babies til they die doesn't mean their swimmers don't become defective if it goes by that. A 32 year old man to me can look old too because 10 years is way too much for me. The good looking ones keep their looks, but the rest of them are not going to get the younger ones. I wouldn't want to date one too much older. I like to stay within a few years of my own age.

I think it is bigotted and sexist and to say that a woman must marry in her 20s it just well it made me mad. If I never have kids I wont care. I will not settle for someone because of a ticking biological clock when its not even a real issue. If I meet someone special between now and then well thats another story. Of all the older women in their 30s that have babies that I know none of them have birth defects so the statistics I am not going to listen to. I agree that when a woman gets into her late 30's that she is taking some risks. There is a massive difference between a 28-35 year old and a 38-45 year old.

I probably shouldnt have been posting my opinions here anyway since I dont have much experience on life. I am usually a bit of a lurker, so I will bow out.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Tigress

Of all the older women in their 30s that have babies that I know none of them have birth defects so the statistics I am not going to listen to.

I like you, Tigress, and the following rant isn't directed at you personally, but this type of reasoning drives me crazy. It's similar to the people who claim "this winter and summer were cooler than ever where I live; therefore global warming is a lie." Statistics and data are what they are. You're comparing a pool of what I would guess is less than 20 individuals in a single community to data collected from tens of thousands of people across the country, if not hundreds of thousands. If you disagree with the interpretation of the data, fine; if you disagree with the methodology used to collect the data, that's fine, too. But how do people just dismiss it outright like that? Are they just ignoring reality when it doesn't fit their desired view of the world?

Granted, the entire reason why I brought the data up in the first place was over this:

Originally Posted by Tigress

I think when I am in my mid 30s I will want to settle down and have children and do normal family stuff. If it happens before then that is fine too but I think the pressures on women is unrealistic.

Just an explanation for part of the reason why there's pressure and expectations, at least from the biological stance. But your focus seems to be that the pressure is on women to have children early simply for the sake of having children, because it's a "woman's duty" and other such outdated concepts. I would agree with your thoughts there.

[Tigress]

Yeah, but why should I care? They are statistics. That's like saying 1 out of every 3 people will get cancer at some point in their lives. Am I going to worry about these statistics? No. I am not going to live my life by statistics. I am going to live my life as it plays out. If something happens to me, it was meant to be. That's how I see it.

Sure I said that but yeah I was taking a stab at the whole by the time your 30 you must have babies. I want to a least enjoy SOME of my young life before then. I haven't even seen any of the world. That won't happen if I hurry off to have kids when I finish college in a few years. My mother regrets that aspect of her life. She had my older siblings when she was my age. Only now she is able to go on vacations because she has a little money to do that. I am the only one left at home and the others flew the nest. I work a crap job to try and pay some of my expenses for college to make it easier on my parents. Its why i want a career first. My mom never got hers off the ground. She ended up taking care of us and never got the job she wanted and was trained for.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Tigress

Yeah, but why should I care?

I'm not going to tell you why you should care - it's your life.

What I will offer is that the prospect of a child with birth or developmental defects is serious to me and to my wife, and hence we're going to try to plan to have them before she hits that high-risk period. A child with those types of problems will require more attention and care, and they're handicapped (literally) when it comes to competing with the rest of society. Nobody wants that for their child; everyone wants to give them the best shot at a wonderful life that they can. (And on that note, you're right to not rush into a relationship, because broken or dysfunctional family units hurt children as well.)

Originally Posted by Tigress

They are statistics. That's like saying 1 out of every 3 people will get cancer at some point in their lives. Am I going to worry about these statistics? No. I am not going to live my life by statistics.

A better comparison is "people who smoke have a significantly greater risk of developing lung cancer and other complications than people who do not smoke," or "eating a diet largely comprised of red meat puts you at greater risk of developing heart disease." Do you need to live your life by it? No. You're free to eat hamburgers and steak for every meal of every day, all while smoking as much as you want, of course. I think that sort of information helps people to make informed decisions, though. They're free to take the risks and play the odds. Knowing that sort of information, perhaps they'll decide that smoking isn't worth it; perhaps they'll decide to eat chicken or fish daily, leaving red meat as a special once-a-week dish. The way I see it, people are free to put themselves at risk - I just don't want people to be unknowingly putting themselves at risk, particularly when they would have chosen not to take the risk if they had been informed.

Mind you, that doesn't translate over to when you, Tigress, should have children at this particular moment. Your life hasn't stabilized in terms of career and location, you're still freely dating, and there are things you want to do. Even if you decided that you wanted to have a child right now, you couldn't (or I suppose you could... but it wouldn't be a good idea). However, in a few short years you might find yourself settled down and married (you never know - life is interesting like that), and when you and your husband are in the process of family planning, that's when the statistics regarding birth defects will be relevant.

[sona-nyl]

It is true that you get less fertile when you reach thirty but the differeance is minimal. Its not until after 35 that the fertility rate really begin to drop and genetic defects becomes an issue.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by MakubeX2

It makes no dense based on your previous argument. True apathy would dictate that one spend a couple of thousand yen on porn or game that one can watch or play over and over. A visit to a club for just an hour can easily cost ten times more. So why bother ?

A lot of people aren't nearly as satisfied by 2d women flirting with them, as by 3d women flirting with you.

A hostess (or host) is just like being able to buy yourself a girlfriend (or boyfriend) for the night, without having to go through all that difficulty that goes along with dating, and them having "independent opinions".

Originally Posted by Tigress

No one has been hassling me in my real life. I am too young for that yet I think. My mother even agrees with me. The problem I had with Don was him jumping all over the fact I said that I feel it is time enough waiting til 30 to have kids when my life is settled and I have a job and money and a career, hopefully! I don't see 30 as being old and my real life female friends range from 18-35 from a tennis club that I am involved in. One of the 32 year olds in our group I would kill to look like her, so I resent someone saying a woman of that age is old and decrepid. Men age the same as women and some look better than others. Just cuz men can have babies til they die doesn't mean their swimmers don't become defective if it goes by that. A 32 year old man to me can look old too because 10 years is way too much for me. The good looking ones keep their looks, but the rest of them are not going to get the younger ones. I wouldn't want to date one too much older. I like to stay within a few years of my own age.

Perhaps I mistated. A few points:
1. I don't think when you choose to marry or procreate is a moral point. It's a personal choice. No one is worse for wanting to wait.
2. 30 year old women are not "old and decrepit", but on the flip side, no young man my age would ever date one. On the reverse, it's quite common for girls my age to date 30 year old men.
3. In our culture, being an old man does not make you particularly unattractive, but being an old woman (45+) does. I don't think this is right, but I don't run all the magazines and movie studios.
4. It is much more difficult for women to date as they get older compared to when they were younger. Any 30 year old woman would tell you this. At 20 men there are many men chasing every woman. At 30, it's the reverse. This is a quirk of population numbers (young men seem to be very good at getting themselves killed...), and also a quirk of the fact that by far the dominant pattern is older man dating younger woman. This article explain it well.
5. Furthermore, "marriageable" people (people with good stable personalities, who want to get married and have kids) are more likely to be married earlier. As you get older, more and more of the dating pool will consist of people who are not necessarily interested in getting married and having kids, maybe because it's not their thing, perhaps they already had kids from a previous relationship, and aren't keen on more.
6. Taken together, it becomes more difficult for a woman to have children as she gets older, simply because it's more difficult for her to find a good partner. However, if you're 30, and you have a good stable partner, I wouldn't be too worried. But if you're single and in your 30s (and particularly if you're older) it does get harder...

So if you do want to get married and have kids, I wouldn't be too complacent about it. I also wouldn't start panicking either, just don't take things for granted. Also, Ledgem and Usami-Haru are correct, in that infertility and defects do go up, particularly after 35. You can read a lot of sad stories about women who try for years to get a baby and fail. Childbearing is a wonderful thing, it would be a shame to miss out on it because you left it too long (as a man I do to an extent envy women, though I don't feel bad about not having to go through labour...)

[csuree]

about statistics i have the opinion that it is meant to those who actually will use them...
as for us more or less normal people, it is only a hindrance which actually causes you to make mistakes.

i speak first hand of statistics, not that they are not true or anything.
i accept that above a certain age there is a real chance that you get more birth defects but actually that is influenced by so many factors ..... and anyway if someone lives in a less stressful, and cleaner environment they push that borderline further. and anyhow those birth defect are more or less caused by things like mutations, diseases, chemical poisoning, etc....and all these affect our body on DNA level.
and if it were to statistics.....i wouldn't even live..... when i was born my mother had a very long and difficult labor, around 20 hours, and the umbilical cord was wrapped around my neck.now imagine that 24 years ago in an underdeveloped east-european country my chances of survival were less than 5%. But i'm here.
and the other statistic that young people who have their drivers license 1 out of 3 have a serious accident. that very much depends on how you drive.. if you drive reckless then it is true.... but in 5 years and 12000 kms later i did not suffer any accident.....

statistics are there to create an order like appearance in our chaotic world that it is actually a full chaos....

it is like perception.....if i would throw a handful of sand on the floor it would take on many shapes that my mind relates too, but everything is just chaos......it is the same with the "face" picture on mars....it was only caused by an error in human perception..

anyhow back to our topic.....Tigress live your life like you want to....i like your spirit.....kinda resembles me, in serious mode, when i can even prove that impossible is nothing(many times i proved wrong people who said to me that this can't be done or you are unable to achieve it).
the social preconceptions are many times wrong......why should we live by them?... i don't see a reasonable explanation....if we were to live by them....would you think we had this forum....or anime, manga and the rest of the things we love?

but using more easier words... throw the social prejudice and preconceptions out of the window... nothing matters when you are truly happy, that is what i believe......

and i just had a very pleasant colleague to advice me about dating.. so i'm back on track boyz, and girlz.....
he came up with a good idea for me.....he said if you play any game think back when you seriously and happily race or fight through a mission..... and using that feeling approach anyone with a smile.....
and i truly know this feeling as i play need for speed world, last week they added my all time favorite car, which i will buy, hopefully next year, (Lexus IS300, 2001) and i am so happy that i can race with it, that i beat cars that are much more faster than me. And using this feeling i kinda opened up again to society. i started talking to people and all, i feel like i missed so much, but that doesn't matter, as i will dive into life, 100%, i will make new friends and then i will get a cute girlfriend.

i hope all of you will get this kind of inspiration, i did, and make the most out of it.... life has so much more to offer. let's make the most out of it, as now comes to my mind a song from Nickelback - If today was your last day..... and a specific verse says "what's worth the prize, is always worth the fight"

get your inspiration and whoosh......

i will write later..... take care....

[MakubeX2]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

A lot of people aren't nearly as satisfied by 2d women flirting with them, as by 3d women flirting with you.

A hostess (or host) is just like being able to buy yourself a girlfriend (or boyfriend) for the night, without having to go through all that difficulty that goes along with dating, and them having "independent opinions".

This doesn't strike me as being "apathetic" now. What you had just said only emphasis that people still desire interactions with someone in the flesh and blood instead of just a digital substitute. And the business of hosting is huge in Japan.

A point to note is that each host has to maintain personal fan club of returning customers just so he can meet his monthly quota. It is not uncommon to hear some rich customers showering gifts on a host just to keep the company. Not the textbook example of apathy now, is it ?

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by MakubeX2

This doesn't strike me as being "apathetic" now. What you had just said only emphasis that people still desire interactions with someone in the flesh and blood instead of just a digital substitute. And the business of hosting is huge in Japan.

A point to note is that each host has to maintain personal fan club of returning customers just so he can meet his monthly quota. It is not uncommon to hear some rich customers showering gifts on a host just to keep the company. Not the textbook example of apathy now, is it ?

It's an apathy towards "real" long term sexual relationships with the opposite sex (IE dating and marriage). It's not an apathy towards relationships in general (which is quite impossible).

The desperate woman who showers gifts on her host is no different from the Otaku desperately clinging to his body pillow.

But both people can attain a certain apathy towards the idea of looking for a real functional relationship because of their chosen substitutes. And what I think is particularly damaging for both is that it transforms a loving relationship into a simple commodity, to be bought and sold, and ultimately to be thrown away when you're bored(this is particularly true of host(ess) bar regulars). But, both are trying to fill an emptiness in their lives, and their ability to fill it with these entertainments mean they never push their lives forward in a way that would give them what they're deep down looking for.

The closest analogy is the alcoholic(or similiarly a drug addict) who drowns himself so that he doesn't have to think about life's problems. The alcohol allows himself to be apathetic, because when you're drunk, you don't have to think.

Now if you want to be single, that's okay, but if you don't want to be single, using a commodity as a substitute for love is a bit...