Maria-sama ga Miteru 4th - Episode 9 Discussion / Poll

[Fuze]

Touko is mysterious, which can be a double-edged sword: it can be good because it's intriguing and suggests a world of potential. On the other hand, it starts becoming bad when there are too many questions, which creates frustration. I feel like episode 9 was bordering the latter.

There is obviously (hopefully) a good reason of why Touko acts the way she does and I'm dying to know already! I'm actually starting to feel like I am Yumi.

[ZephyrLeanne]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Shimako's the best. Every time I look at her, I can't help but think "it'd be such a waste for her to become a nun".

I hereby second this motion.

[Dop]

Aaargh! Touko is really getting irritating, like she's reverted to Evil Corkscrew-Haired Bitch mode. Is it wrong that I find myself hoping more and more that someone will give her a good slap?

[Proto]

More like reverting to evil mode, it's more like everyone finds her too difficult to read, apparently even the viewers. That's one of the reasons she's actually one of my favorite characters of the series I guess Characters that are not so obvious about what they want are welcome in this series where despite everyone making fun of Yumi, they seem a little too easy to read.

[Vulcannis]

While I can understand not liking Touko when she's putting on an act, I'd love to see someone give her a smack when she pulls one out, I don't see why everyone hates her. She obviously cares for Yumi, but has some serious issues with relationships and trust*. I've not read the novels, but I think she ran for council as a gift to Yumi. She knows she just hurt someone she cares about, and was able to use her villainous acting skills to create a definitive demonstration of just how much everyone cares for Yumi. Of course she still doesn't quite understand Yumi (I think she is stuck viewing others actions through the filter of her own experiences) and thus doesn't realize how close her gift came to backfiring completely, if Yumi had withdrawn.

Touko's obviously comfortable with her acting skills and playing the role of a villain, and when you've only got a hammer everything looks like a nail. Back when we first heard about it, I had assumed her "problem" was related to inheriting the family business or somesuch and thus not being able to pursue acting. What I took for hints seemed a bit heavy handed. But as the episodes go by that seems a bit... minor a reason to have dragged out so long.

*Edit: Hrm, I guess trust isn't the right word. She seems to be really sensitive to other peoples motivations when they're being nice to her, though.

[Kimmie-chan]

I thought stuff was tough at home for Touko ... but seeing how nice her mum is, that completely wiped that theory ^^;; Really don't know what Touko's up to. But this makes it all the more watch-worthy

I thought it was silly for Yumi to doubt that she would make a Rose. I swear she has a large fanbase ^^

[karloring]

Shimako's the best. Every time I look at her, I can't help but think "it'd be such a waste for her to become a nun".

I third this lol

[dahl_moon]

Originally Posted by Kimmie-chan

I thought it was silly for Yumi to doubt that she would make a Rose. I swear she has a large fanbase ^^

There's a reason for Yoshino's outburst. Yumi has a large fan base and Shimako is a incumbent Rose, leaving Yoshino like this (don't take this seriously ):

Spoiler:

[sa547]

Originally Posted by dahl_moon

There's a reason for Yoshino's outburst. Yumi has a large fan base and Shimako is a incumbent Rose, leaving Yoshino like this (don't take this seriously ):

Spoiler:

*cough* Geez, poor girl, trying to do an SZS. xD

[Mentar]

Well... *scratch head*

I think that I found out this episode what's been bothering me lately: Yumi's entirely uncharacteristic whiny passivity.

In the early seasons, one of the most pleasant aspects of the show was how her common sense commoner behavior worked out well in ojousama circumstances. She had her phases of confusion, vulnerability and uncertainty, but she eventually overcame them and progressed. This has been missing almost the entire fourth season.

Seriously, if I see her whiny doting and hear her "Touko-chaaaan" any longer without her taking any form of action, I'm gonna tear my hair out.

[MarmoO]

Originally Posted by dahl_moon

(don't take this seriously ):

No :P

Originally Posted by dahl_moon

Spoiler:

Yoshino 5 votes???

@#$#$#$%#@%^

Yoshino is probably the second best character of Marimite, right after Touko. I really can't understand how can one not love them.

Touko did enter this contest because she knew it would have been unfulfilling, having three people fight for three spots. She knew there is a fourth person needed, so she decided to enter. Her mother, who didn't even know her daughter is a candidate, proves it (if rejecting all possible support is not enough). Her throwing away Yumi's proposal also makes sense, if she agreed right on the spot, it would have been kind off null, done because of the influence of the moment. She wants it to be perfectly thought out. If Yumi gave up on her, then it would mean she wasn't that serious, so what's the deal? I know she kinda fails at understanding people's feelings, but still IMHO Touko is a definition of love.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by MarmoO

Her throwing away Yumi's proposal also makes sense, if she agreed right on the spot, it would have been kind off null, done because of the influence of the moment. She wants it to be perfectly thought out. If Yumi gave up on her, then it would mean she wasn't that serious, so what's the deal?

Rejecting her for that kind of whimsical reason would be a jerk move. I don't think it's a test. There's got to be something more. She's probably trying not to drag Yumi into whatever her problem is.

[MarmoO]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Rejecting her for that kind of whimsical reason would be a jerk move. I don't think it's a test. There's got to be something more. She's probably trying not to drag Yumi into whatever her problem is.

I don't think it's that whimsical, but putting that aside. Would there be another reason? All I can think off is her being forced to leave Lilyan for a longer time. At first I thought she had some "serious business" at home (especially after the episode where she was wisiting Yumi's house), but seeing her mother made me remake my opinion.

[Sinestra]

Another good episode and Touko again astounds me, which is why she is 2nd favorite character in the series. Instead of having bland and easy to read characters Maria-sama manages to have diverse and complex characters that are very much human. This episode showed exactly it was best for Touko to turn down Yumi's rosary. Im sure most of us can see the similarities between Yumi and Touko's relationship and Sachio's and Yumi's when they first started out. Yumi understands Touko pretty well on a subconscious level but she doesn't trust her feelings. Even more so than Noriko. Yumi a easy to read character who wears her emotions on her sleeve is opposite Touko who wears a mask (hence the title) majority of the time.

Both Yumi and Touko have a multitude of things they can learn from one another and help each other grown and mature through their relationship just as Yumi and Sachiko have grown together this is one the core philosophies of the souer system. No one understood Touko's reasons for running and assumed that her intentions were malicious. However, Touko did not care what others thought becasue she herself wanted to do it not for herself but for Yumi and Yumi understood at the very end. People tend to look at the glass as half empty regarding Touko but in all actuality the glass is half full. Each episode peels away a part of Touko allowing us to see whats underneath and imo that is the power of the series not quick and easy character development but steady and gradual progress so that the audience grows with the character the result is the audience becoming attached to these characters and we start to understand them bit by but just like real life.

The student body and Noriko kept asking Touko why she wondering but the most important person never uttered a word and that would be Yumi. Yumi learned a vaualbe lesson and in a way became that much closer to Touko. Yumi still has many layers to peel away and Touko has much to learn about Yumi it wont happen in one episode or even 2 or 3 its taken a year for Sachiko and Yumi to get where they are. Touko's pressence carries a lot of weight weather we understand her or not. Yumi and Touko as Souers would put the red rose family as the most diverse and inspring out of the 3. Touko and Yumi would repersent two sides of the spectum that meet in the middle creating something whole.

Imo Touko is able to give Yumi strength in the hard times and being her support. In return Yumi would give Touko compassion and the knowledge that someone truly accepts her for who shes is and cares about her as Touko. Touko responds to genuinen feelings look at the face she made when her mother dropped her shoes off. Also, we have seen her make that face with Yumi its just a matter of time to open her up and honestly Yumi is the only person that can do that but not as she is now but it will happen.

As for the rest of the cast Yoshino is just damn cool. I love a person who can speak honestly about what they want and how they are feeling. Some may be put off by her bluntness but i find it her strength. Which is why i was not surprised Shimako in her elegance praised Yoshino for her words. They both have different ways of doing things Shimako considers everyones feelings around her and Shimako is honest.

I enjoyed episode 9 whole heartedly i hope some others here have started to figure out Touko's characters. She is not mean and malicious and she is not evil just guarded and shy with her feelings i think we can relate to that every now and again.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Mentar

I think that I found out this episode what's been bothering me lately: Yumi's entirely uncharacteristic whiny passivity.

In the early seasons, one of the most pleasant aspects of the show was how her common sense commoner behavior worked out well in ojousama circumstances. She had her phases of confusion, vulnerability and uncertainty, but she eventually overcame them and progressed. This has been missing almost the entire fourth season.

Seriously, if I see her whiny doting and hear her "Touko-chaaaan" any longer without her taking any form of action, I'm gonna tear my hair out.

There are a couple of different things going on here. Yumi has never reacted particularly well when she's put into positions where she's unbalanced. Touko's attitude does precisely that, so Yumi is struggling a bit to cope. The other main thing going on is that Yumi is growing as a person - she can't jump and react to things the way she used to.

I liken the latter to what someone said in a different forum: that Rosa Chinesis is historically the leader of the Yamayurikai, but that this role was likely to switch to Shimako when the current Rosas graduate. And that the reason for this is that Yumi isn't in any condition to take on a leadership position. I think otherwise; Yumi is very much on the way to fulfilling that role, and that in a way, this is a demonstration of how capable she really is.

A neat way of contrasting her is with Noriko. Noriko brings a lot of different strengths and weaknesses, but one thing is fairly clear - she isn't quite ready to set an example for her hypothetical kouhai. I think that this gradual change shows how none of the girls are quite ready at the start; and that they have to grow into their roles.

Originally Posted by MarmoO

Yoshino 5 votes???

@#$#$#$%#@%^

Yoshino is probably the second best character of Marimite, right after Touko. I really can't understand how can one not love them.

With three candidates chosen, I think it's likely that each voter could pick three choices. Yoshino might not be as popular as Yumi and Shimako, but she'd do pretty well. If it were one vote per person, I'd expect Yumi to blow everyone else away.

Originally Posted by Sinestra

As for the rest of the cast Yoshino is just damn cool. I love a person who can speak honestly about what they want and how they are feeling.

You're actually talking about Noriko . Yoshino actually weighs her words and expressions fairly carefully because she's still looking for how others will react to them. The way she did her outburst and then cocked open one eye (lovely bit of characterization, by the way) shows quite well that she thought that she knew what she was doing. While her mannerism is fairl blunt, Yoshino is still very much a creature of the Yamayurikai, and protocol and propriety are big elements of that. She just doesn't let it get in the way of having a little bit of fun.

Originally Posted by Sinestra

Some may be put off by her bluntness but i find it her strength. Which is why i was not surprised Shimako in her elegance praised Yoshino for her words. They both have different ways of doing things Shimako considers everyones feelings around her and Shimako is honest.

I agree that the exchange was absolutely excellent. But I do question Shimako's complete honesty - she's a very nice person with a lot of empathy, so she is relentlessly honest unless being honest would hurt someone. In which case, she would refrain from talking. Marimite being one of those shows where what is unsaid is often as important as what is said, I think that this all works very nicely.

[cynicalicious]

I'll have to disagree with you on that. Yoshino is about as rash as you can get. Do I need to remind you of the bet she made with Eriko about getting a petite soeur? That was hardly premeditated. (Although the way she tries to retell it is hysterically funny, in how it completely contradicts the truth.)

And it's really too bad that they cut out some other stuff from the books for the anime, because it just underlines that...

She's getting better about thinking before firing off what's on her mind, but she knows she has a way to go. "Dark Yoshino" still makes her appearances from time to time. (lol)

[Sinestra]

[QUOTE=4Tran;2262300]

You're actually talking about Noriko . Yoshino actually weighs her words and expressions fairly carefully because she's still looking for how others will react to them. The way she did her outburst and then cocked open one eye (lovely bit of characterization, by the way) shows quite well that she thought that she knew what she was doing. While her mannerism is fairl blunt, Yoshino is still very much a creature of the Yamayurikai, and protocol and propriety are big elements of that. She just doesn't let it get in the way of having a little bit of fun.

I agree that the exchange was absolutely excellent. But I do question Shimako's complete honesty - she's a very nice person with a lot of empathy, so she is relentlessly honest unless being honest would hurt someone. In which case, she would refrain from talking. Marimite being one of those shows where what is unsaid is often as important as what is said, I think that this all works very nicely.

Well i was actually talking about Yoshino she is very blunt and up front with certain things i mean look at the beat she made with Eriko. Even if the other member of the Yumayurika were thinking we dont want to be separated from friends Yoshino is the one who bluntly put it out there with no problem and i love her for that.



I loved the exchange i watched it twice.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Sinestra

Another good episode and Touko again astounds me, which is why she is 2nd favorite character in the series. Instead of having bland and easy to read characters Maria-sama manages to have diverse and complex characters that are very much human. This episode showed exactly it was best for Touko to turn down Yumi's rosary. Im sure most of us can see the similarities between Yumi and Touko's relationship and Sachio's and Yumi's when they first started out.

I find the two relationships more different than alike. Practically opposite. Sachiko proposed her rosary on the first day they met, Yumi after 8 months of acquaintance and much deliberation. Yumi was in awe of Sachiko, but knew little about her. While Touko may like and even admire Yumi, I don't believe she's particularly awed. Sachiko's desire for a soeur was selfish, at first. Yumi's always tried, if not always successfully, to mind Touko's feelings.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

There are a couple of different things going on here. Yumi has never reacted particularly well when she's put into positions where she's unbalanced. Touko's attitude does precisely that, so Yumi is struggling a bit to cope. The other main thing going on is that Yumi is growing as a person - she can't jump and react to things the way she used to.

I liken the latter to what someone said in a different forum: that Rosa Chinesis is historically the leader of the Yamayurikai, but that this role was likely to switch to Shimako when the current Rosas graduate. And that the reason for this is that Yumi isn't in any condition to take on a leadership position. I think otherwise; Yumi is very much on the way to fulfilling that role, and that in a way, this is a demonstration of how capable she really is.

I've always had doubts on Shimako's aptitude to become the leader. It's true she's the most experienced, the smartest and wisest. Probably the most serious, too. She has the most poise. But even now, her attachment to the Yamayurikai is weak. It showed in her attitude when Touko ran in the election. Her seat is something she could give up any time.

And I feel the same about Yumi's growth. I used to have doubts about her too, but not any more.

With three candidates chosen, I think it's likely that each voter could pick three choices. Yoshino might not be as popular as Yumi and Shimako, but she'd do pretty well. If it were one vote per person, I'd expect Yumi to blow everyone else away.

I'm not so sure. I may be biased, but... If third years can vote in an election that doesn't properly concern them, I think Shimako would beat her handily. If not, she'd still give Yumi a run for her money. While Yumi would have the votes of the first years, Shimako would have the older students'. She's more experienced as a Rose, smarter, more graceful. Even in first year, she was already admired by her age mates. And I think Lillian students are more the type to vote for those they admire than those they "merely" like.

You're actually talking about Noriko . Yoshino actually weighs her words and expressions fairly carefully because she's still looking for how others will react to them. The way she did her outburst and then cocked open one eye (lovely bit of characterization, by the way) shows quite well that she thought that she knew what she was doing. While her mannerism is fairl blunt, Yoshino is still very much a creature of the Yamayurikai, and protocol and propriety are big elements of that. She just doesn't let it get in the way of having a little bit of fun.

Yoshino's actions and speeches are indeed, most of the time, calculated. IIRC, she commented in the first season about how she was careful to call Rei "onee-sama" instead of "Rei-chan", when in "public" at school. OTOH, making her lose control and blurt whatever really isn't that hard.

I agree that the exchange was absolutely excellent. But I do question Shimako's complete honesty - she's a very nice person with a lot of empathy, so she is relentlessly honest unless being honest would hurt someone. In which case, she would refrain from talking. Marimite being one of those shows where what is unsaid is often as important as what is said, I think that this all works very nicely.

I don't think that's what she'd have said if she hadn't been honest. I thought that answer was very much like her, really. Out of left field, but loving and sweet.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by cynicalicious

I'll have to disagree with you on that. Yoshino is about as rash as you can get. Do I need to remind you of the bet she made with Eriko about getting a petite soeur? That was hardly premeditated. (Although the way she tries to retell it is hysterically funny, in how it completely contradicts the truth.)

Originally Posted by Sinestra

Well i was actually talking about Yoshino she is very blunt and up front with certain things i mean look at the beat she made with Eriko. Even if the other member of the Yumayurika were thinking we dont want to be separated from friends Yoshino is the one who bluntly put it out there with no problem and i love her for that.

Oh sure Yoshino can be wonderfully impetuous at times, but this doesn't make her undiplomatic or even incautious. It just means that she's not in control at all times. Usually, Yoshino is quite a bit more calculating.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I find the two relationships more different than alike. Practically opposite. Sachiko proposed her rosary on the first day they met, Yumi after 8 months of acquaintance and much deliberation. Yumi was in awe of Sachiko, but knew little about her. While Touko may like and even admire Yumi, I don't believe she's particularly awed. Sachiko's desire for a soeur was selfish, at first. Yumi's always tried, if not always successfully, to mind Touko's feelings.

The two relationships' character dynamics are quite different. After the initial hump of the getting-to-know you phase, the Yumi-Sachiko relationship is on a pretty even keel - neither one of them really dominating the other. And at the beginning, there is a bit of an awe factor going on there, but Sachiko herself was prim enough that there was a certain distance ther.

Touko-Yumi, on the other hand can only be described as overwhelming for Touko. There's really very little that she can do to withstand Yumi's irrepressible nature, and so she's pretty much swept up in whatever the latter wants to do. One of the nicely underplayed elements of Marimite is just how unrestrained Yumi can be, and how strongly she can affect others. While I don't think that this is a big factor in rejecting Yumi's offer, it's something to consider.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I've always had doubts on Shimako's aptitude to become the leader. It's true she's the most experienced, the smartest and wisest. Probably the most serious, too. She has the most poise. But even now, her attachment to the Yamayurikai is weak. It showed in her attitude when Touko ran in the election. Her seat is something she could give up any time.

That's certainly an element, but I think that it's more a matter of Shimako's other qualities. She's diplomatic and empathetic to a fault, so it would be harder for her to call the shots, she is a more distant figure than the others, and she doesn't really have as much initiative. Yumi is an all-around better choice.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I'm not so sure. I may be biased, but... If third years can vote in an election that doesn't properly concern them, I think Shimako would beat her handily. If not, she'd still give Yumi a run for her money. While Yumi would have the votes of the first years, Shimako would have the older students'. She's more experienced as a Rose, smarter, more graceful. Even in first year, she was already admired by her age mates. And I think Lillian students are more the type to vote for those they admire than those they "merely" like.

The election is held right before exam time, so the third-years probably wouldn't vote at all. Even if we were just limited to them, I think that both wuold be roughly even when it comes to admiration. Where Yumi tips the scale is that she's simply far more approachable as a person.

[Molenir]

The election is held right before exam time, so the third-years probably wouldn't vote at all. Even if we were just limited to them, I think that both wuold be roughly even when it comes to admiration. Where Yumi tips the scale is that she's simply far more approachable as a person.

3rd Years don't vote in the election. Didn't we learn that in the first season from Sei? And I agree about Yumi being the natural leader.