Hyouka - Episode 9 Discussion / Poll

[~Yami~]

can't think of any theories... >.<
I only can think complicated explanations but this one seems like a simple trick

anyway, since Chitanda is drunk, her curious power can't affect Oreki.... that's why he can go home peacefully without giving any explanations... xD

[winhlp32]

Episode 9:

- Well...while episode 8 adapted one single chapter, this was just under half the novel crammed into a single episode. So as expected this episode felt like one big info dump, as Kyoani couldn't leave out any details that could be crucial to solving the mystery. Essentially what Naoko Yamada had to do this episode was damage control; Character interactions had to be cut since they had to present the meat in this one episode, which I understand as they wouldn't want to let this whole interviewing thing go on for two whole episodes. Oh well, next episode should go a lot smoother.

[Solafighter]

"Chow desu."

[linkinstreet]

Something has been bugging me tho. While they showed and mentioned Sherlock Holmes in the episode, why was the title from the previous episode alludes to Agatha Christie. Even Houtaro said he watched Murder on the Orient Express, another of Christie's classic. And Christie's way of mystery is kinda different from Doyle's Sherlock Holmes. Maybe it was never intended to be seen through how Doyle would have written up a mystery, but Christie instead?

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by linkinstreet

Something has been bugging me tho. While they showed and mentioned Sherlock Holmes in the episode, why was the title from the previous episode alludes to Agatha Christie. Even Houtaro said he watched Murder on the Orient Express, another of Christie's classic. And Christie's way of mystery is kinda different from Doyle's Sherlock Holmes. Maybe it was never intended to be seen through how Doyle would have written up a mystery, but Christie instead?

To understnad this you have to understand that Agatha Christie and Arthur Knox were both members of the detective club. So Christie was aware of his decalogue and only stretched it a bit, but never violated it.
Now Irisu has already stated that Houngu also decided to apply Knox rules in order to give people a fair chance of solving it.

So yes, you propbably have to solve it like a Christie novel. I think she just took some ideas from holmes and wrote her own story off that. - its just a pity that one has to read spoilers if they have not yet read it.

Another thing I have to note is that he only said orient express in the anime, in the Novel, he said railroad crimes or something similar, but never mentioned a specific title.

[GreyZone]

For those that don't know the "Knox's 10 Commandments", I'll just throw them in:

1. The criminal must be mentioned in the early part of the story, but must not be anyone whose thoughts the reader has been allowed to know.
2. All supernatural or preternatural agencies are ruled out as a matter of course.
3. Not more than one secret room or passage is allowable.
4. No hitherto undiscovered poisons may be used, nor any appliance which will need a long scientific explanation at the end.
5. No Chinaman must figure in the story.
6. No accident must ever help the detective, nor must he ever have an unaccountable intuition which proves to be right.
7. The detective himself must not commit the crime.
8. The detective is bound to declare any clues which he may discover.
9. The "sidekick" of the detective, the Watson, must not conceal from the reader any thoughts which pass through his mind: his intelligence must be slightly, but very slightly, below that of the average reader.
10. Twin brothers, and doubles generally, must not appear unless we have been duly prepared for them.

So as we see in Knox's 2nd rule, the 3rd theory of that girl already fails.
The 2nd guy also fails, because the "ropes" are based off meta knowledge. I don't remember the ropes to be shown in the movie at all (correct me if I am wrong)
And the 1st theory... well... knox's 8th... there are no signs in the grass and also the window was closed and it looked like it can only be opened/closed from the inside (not sure about this)



Unrelated to Knox, but very popular in detective fiction nontheless, is "Chekhov's Gun", which states that if a element is introduced, it MUST serve a purpose and may not be just for decoration. In other words: The severed hand for example must have a reason to be there and was not just cut off to make it look more brutal.


Of course there also could be a "Red Herring" (something seems to be a clue, but in fact isn't and just exists to divert attention), but the mystery is far too short to implement it without making the mystery unsolvable.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

For those that don't know the "Knox's 10 Commandments", I'll just throw them in:

1. The criminal must be mentioned in the early part of the story, but must not be anyone whose thoughts the reader has been allowed to know.
2. All supernatural or preternatural agencies are ruled out as a matter of course.
3. Not more than one secret room or passage is allowable.
4. No hitherto undiscovered poisons may be used, nor any appliance which will need a long scientific explanation at the end.
5. No Chinaman must figure in the story.
6. No accident must ever help the detective, nor must he ever have an unaccountable intuition which proves to be right.
7. The detective himself must not commit the crime.
8. The detective is bound to declare any clues which he may discover.
9. The "sidekick" of the detective, the Watson, must not conceal from the reader any thoughts which pass through his mind: his intelligence must be slightly, but very slightly, below that of the average reader.
10. Twin brothers, and doubles generally, must not appear unless we have been duly prepared for them.

So as we see in Knox's 2nd rule, the 3rd theory of that girl already fails.
The 2nd guy also fails, because the "ropes" are based off meta knowledge. I don't remember the ropes to be shown in the movie at all (correct me if I am wrong)
And the 1st theory... well... knox's 8th... there are no signs in the grass and also the window was closed and it looked like it can only be opened/closed from the inside (not sure about this)



Unrelated to Knox, but very popular in detective fiction nontheless, is "Chekhov's Gun", which states that if a element is introduced, it MUST serve a purpose and may not be just for decoration. In other words: The severed hand for example must have a reason to be there and was not just cut off to make it look more brutal.


Of course there also could be a "Red Herring" (something seems to be a clue, but in fact isn't and just exists to divert attention), but the mystery is far too short to implement it without making the mystery unsolvable.

Chekhov's Gun was not mentioned though, so I daresay that we can ignore it, especially considering how the severed hand comes from the prop team and not the original script.
Condiering how little blood she ordered I'm pretty sure that the hand was never inteded to be there.
The blood in your body is under preasure - even if you cut it off post-mortem, especially considering how there was barely any time between crime and discovery.
The arm being there contradics the amount of blood used, no matter how you look at it.
There was sno blood between the arm and the body, yet even if the arm was cut off post mortem, there would still be a few drops of blood betwween them.


Plus, Rule 2 does NOT contradict Sawaguchi's theory, as long as there is some kind of trick behind it. - The scream monster was human too and never had a proplem entering closed rooms. And why? They used a trick.

As for the rope being meta Knowledge - yes and no.
The problem with this special Mystery movie is that it is incomplete - so we can take the rope as a clue without problems. Also consider that they want the classics club to figure out two things: modus operandi and culprit.

So knowing that a rope was used is pretty important.

[GreyZone]

Well i was using Knox's 2nd rule only because she mentioned a "vengeful ghost".

[Vulcannis]

I forget what the building is, but since it has a stage, could the arm just be a prop? Or part of a manequin? What was the positioning of the arm & key compared to that trapdoor/dumbwaiter/thing? I thought it was underneath but I haven't gone back to check.

I hope the mystery is not something stupid like person above put fake arm through the trapdoor, which scared the crap out of the guy and he smacked his head enough to knock himself out or die. That would explain the smaller amount of blood.

The locked door, key and rope don't fit into that though so I'm sure it's wrong.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Vulcannis

I forget what the building is, but since it has a stage, could the arm just be a prop? Or part of a manequin? What was the positioning of the arm & key compared to that trapdoor/dumbwaiter/thing? I thought it was underneath but I haven't gone back to check.

I hope the mystery is not something stupid like person above put fake arm through the trapdoor, which scared the crap out of the guy and he smacked his head enough to knock himself out or die. That would explain the smaller amount of blood.

The locked door, key and rope don't fit into that though so I'm sure it's wrong.

A theather.
And there are two things qualifiying to what you meant by dumbwaiter now...

1) the door that lies on the ground
2nd) the chute on the wall

Both however have nothing to do with the case since they were not mentioned in the novel.

[Warm Mist]

A lot of the talking here is amusing, but too focused on the content of the amateur film.

In the show, the talks are more meta/based on how the recording went. i.e they are actually trying to write the script and end the movie, not just solve the mystery as if it were a mystery novel.

So which way of thinking will Oreki use between these two when asked to come up with something?

I'm all for the latter.

[monir]

Originally Posted by Hyper

It's probably not the author intention, but I feel like the comment about "beginner usually mix horror and mystery together" is directed to the critiques that say Hyouka is boring because nothing "interesting" happened. Hyouka is a mystery alright. .

Thank you!

Since we got a day left for the new episode thread and the coversation has pretty much dried up in this thread, I've got an off-topic query: Do people still think this show is a "SAFE" one for KyoAni as some of us pointed it out bluntly after episode 1 aired?

I won't be offended if there are no replies cause the silence can only strengthen the argument for the quality of this show and a story that is genuinely focuses on the mystery theme rather than trying to make it gimmick-y for the sake of off-color entertainment via horror, supernatural, and what not. I haven't seen a good mystery anime in a while,... well, not since GitS anyway. So, pretty happy with Hyouka so far for their genuine effort KyoAni is putting out to work with this story.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by monir

Thank you!

Since we got a day left for the new episode thread and the coversation has pretty much dried up in this thread, I've got an off-topic query: Do people still think this show is a "SAFE" one for KyoAni as some of us pointed it out bluntly after episode 1 aired?

I won't be offended if there are no replies cause the silence can only strengthen the argument for the quality of this show and a story that is genuinely focuses on the mystery theme rather than trying to make it gimmick-y for the sake of off-color entertainment via horror, supernatural, and what not. I haven't seen a good mystery anime in a while,... well, not since GitS anyway. So, pretty happy with Hyouka so far for their genuine effort KyoAni is putting out to work with this story.

I started watching it around to time EP 8 aired, so I didn't see most of the discussion prior to case 8ts (I did see the episodes though) so please enlighten me what you mean by 'safe'.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by monir

Thank you!

Since we got a day left for the new episode thread and the coversation has pretty much dried up in this thread, I've got an off-topic query: Do people still think this show is a "SAFE" one for KyoAni as some of us pointed it out bluntly after episode 1 aired?

The only truly creative aspect of this show is the visuals. I would say this was a pretty safe show, one that didn't really push any creative boundaries on a story or character level. The developments are pretty natural, the style is largely inoffensive. There's no grand plot or theme here, and very little at all actually happens. Its relaxing style is something that's been done before many times. Pretty safely done story I would say.

Sure it's well produced, but window dressing only goes so far to make something a truly good work.

The silence could also only mean that a lot of people got bored and decided to drop it .

[winhlp32]

Its not safe in that more Haruhi (or more FMP for the Occident) would've provided them more financial security?

[Hyper]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

I started watching it around to time EP 8 aired, so I didn't see most of the discussion prior to case 8ts (I did see the episodes though) so please enlighten me what you mean by 'safe'.

My summery of the argument is: Hyouka is a water-downed Haruhi. Houtarou is Kyon-minus-sarcasm and Eru is Haruhi-minus-aggressiveness. The claim is those aspect of the show, combined with K-On-ish design, are a guaranteed sell.

I personally don't share that opinion. I stated my opinion in the episode 1-3 thread:

Originally Posted by Hyper

I'm not sure about experiment, but I agree that it's certainly a risk. Actually, you can argue that KyoAni can take a risk because they now have enough confident about animation and their own track record that it'll carry over enough people far enough to reach the juice of the story. Looking back, I consider picking up Hyouka a much more risk-taking project than, say, KyoAni picking up a Josei. Sure, the school setup and the down-to-earth feel of the story is not out of their records, but having a 3+ introductory episodes with virtually no comedy or life-changing event to keep the viewers' attention is not something you cannot take lightly. They do not have the "fame" of the source material to rely on either. Add that to the fact that the show air late into the season which arguably packed with good shows (not my opinion here), and you can see why they're facing an uphill battle.

If a safe bet is what they want, I'd say they would've done more Haruhi, Little Buster!, more K-On!, or FMP. In that order. I think Hyouka is even more risky than Nichijou. That one they at least have comedies to fall back on. Nichijou is a comedy of course, but it tried to differentiate itself with absurdness and etc. Still, if those failed, it is still a comedy; something virtually everyone can enjoy. For Hyouka, that's not true. If they cannot engage the audience to wonder about the mysteries, there is no plan B. Well, almost. The other half of Hyouka is character growth and relationship i.e. "The bitter sweetness of growing up" as their description put it. Nevertheless, if you don't interest in thinking about the mystery at all then Hyouka will be very boring.

Those two are all Hyouka do. No grand conspiracy. No action. No life-threatening events. Nothing supernatural. Not event horror, which shows in this episode as something that people always expect in a mystery. If K-On! was an attempt to see how far one can push an envelope of a purely moe show, then Hyouka would be the same for mystery.

[monir]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

I started watching it around to time EP 8 aired, so I didn't see most of the discussion prior to case 8ts (I did see the episodes though) so please enlighten me what you mean by 'safe'.

The few days before Hyouka started airing, we also get the news that KyoAni weren't going to animate Little Busters. After episode 1 of Hyouka aired, the first and the foremost criticism Hyouka received was how "SAFE" the show was. People who chose to use that terms defined "SAFE" in several manner, but in the end the overreaching conclusion was that KyoAni would want to animate a show like Hyouka because it was "SAFE". Here is the General Discussion thread that had that discussion. Skip to page 24.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

The only truly creative aspect of this show is the visuals. I would say this was a pretty safe show, one that didn't really push any creative boundaries on a story or character level. The developments are pretty natural, the style is largely inoffensive. There's no grand plot or theme here, and very little at all actually happens. Its relaxing style is something that's been done before many times. Pretty safely done story I would say.

Sure it's well produced, but window dressing only goes so far to make something a truly good work.

The silence could also only mean that a lot of people got bored and decided to drop it .

Here is my take of "SAFE" that differs from your perspective...

I agree that the story in itself is nothing to write home about. Episode 1's highlight, for example, was the hero putting two and two together that the janitor closed the door from outside. I was literally shocked that KyoAni would dare to work on such a show rather than throwing themselves all over a story like Little Busters with a proven following by the Key fans. Not only that, I agree that this show has been done before, but not by KyoAni. The aesthetic isn't what defining this show, but rather its persistance to stay on course with the mystery theme. See if you can name one series which had mystery in it without the added horror or supernatural aspect just because without those type of gimmick, the story simply wasn't going to be interesting enough. This is what impressing me more than anything about this story, and I'm so impressed because KyoAni is doing this. Heck, I don't even see the financial angle for KyoAni with this show, so yeah... I actually don't define this series as "SAFE" from any standard.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by monir

The few days before Hyouka started airing, we also get the news that KyoAni weren't going to animate Little Busters. After episode 1 of Hyouka aired, the first and the foremost criticism Hyouka received was how "SAFE" the show was. People who chose to use that terms defined "SAFE" in several manner, but in the end the overreaching conclusion was that KyoAni would want to animate a show like Hyouka because it was "SAFE". Here is the General Discussion thread that had that discussion. Skip to page 24.




Here is my take of "SAFE" that differs from your perspective...

I agree that the story in itself is nothing to write home about. Episode 1's highlight, for example, was the hero putting two and two together that the janitor closed the door from outside. I was literally shocked that KyoAni would dare to work on such a show rather than throwing themselves all over a story like Little Busters with a proven following by the Key fans. Not only that, I agree that this show has been done before, but not by KyoAni. The aesthetic isn't what defining this show, but rather its persistance to stay on course with the mystery theme. See if you can name one series which had mystery in it without the added horror or supernatural aspect just because without those type of gimmick, the story simply wasn't going to be interesting enough. This is what impressing me more than anything about this story, and I'm so impressed because KyoAni is doing this. Heck, I don't even see the financial angle for KyoAni with this show, so yeah... I actually don't define this series as "SAFE" from any standard.

I think the "safe" definition differs from your perspective because you're coming at it from totally different angles considering totally different factors compared to Reckoner. Reckoner seems to be commenting on the show more from a technical standpoint. As in how is this executed, does it do anything particularly outside the boundaries of what is common for a mystery story, are the mysteries interesting and engrossing etc. You seem to be coming at it more from the perspective of deep seated admiration for Kyoani as opposed to Hyouka's execution and the fact that they chose to do this over the unrelated Little Busters. Also while Reckoner's approach deals more with an inclusion of factors to be considered, yours places great weight on an absence of factors such as horror which you feel the series might otherwise bank on.

There's like almost no crossover between the two angles of looking at the show. Also it's probably no secret, but if I were asked to judge if a show felt like it wasn't being "Safe" or as I'd prefer to call it "not challenging the viewer" I'd probably be looking at things more from Reckoners technical perspective then what the studio involved doesn't happen to be doing at the moment and what themes they aren't including in the show. I hope you understand that those factors aren't going to be important to everyone, but I would think that the things that Reckoner mentioned would be more commonly seen as important by many.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by monir

Here is my take of "SAFE" that differs from your perspective...

I agree that the story in itself is nothing to write home about. Episode 1's highlight, for example, was the hero putting two and two together that the janitor closed the door from outside. I was literally shocked that KyoAni would dare to work on such a show rather than throwing themselves all over a story like Little Busters with a proven following by the Key fans. Not only that, I agree that this show has been done before, but not by KyoAni. The aesthetic isn't what defining this show, but rather its persistance to stay on course with the mystery theme. See if you can name one series which had mystery in it without the added horror or supernatural aspect just because without those type of gimmick, the story simply wasn't going to be interesting enough. This is what impressing me more than anything about this story, and I'm so impressed because KyoAni is doing this. Heck, I don't even see the financial angle for KyoAni with this show, so yeah... I actually don't define this series as "SAFE" from any standard.

I don't mean this with disrespect, but your reasoning pretty much boiled down to me that "it's kyoani so it's amazing" which isn't terribly convincing.

Kyoani was also amazingly persistent with how they did Endless 8, but we all know how that turned out.

If its defining qualities are that it's kyoani and that it lacks defining traits, I'm not sure how that's supposed to mean it's a creative show

I like Kaioshin's phrase here because it explains more what I mean, which is "challenging the viewer." It's a safe story in that it doesn't do anything terribly original or novel besides the visual department. It's pleasant sure, but nothing to write home about and I don't think it deserves accolades just for that.

And mystery shows, ever heard of detective conan? Hyouka is far from the first and won't be the last.

[monir]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

I think the "safe" definition differs from your perspective because you're coming at it from totally different angles considering totally different factors compared to Reckoner. Reckoner seems to be commenting on the show more from a technical standpoint. As in how is this executed, does it do anything particularly outside the boundaries of what is common for a mystery story, are the mysteries interesting and engrossing etc. You seem to be coming at it more from the perspective of deep seated admiration for Kyoani as opposed to Hyouka's execution and the fact that they chose to do this over the unrelated Little Busters. Also while Reckoner's approach deals more with an inclusion of factors to be considered, yours places great weight on an absence of factors such as horror which you feel the series might otherwise bank on.

There's like almost no crossover between the two angles of looking at the show. Also it's probably no secret, but if I were asked to judge if a show felt like it wasn't being "Safe" or as I'd prefer to call it "not challenging the viewer" I'd probably be looking at things more from Reckoners technical perspective then what the studio involved doesn't happen to be doing at the moment and what themes they aren't including in the show. I hope you understand that those factors aren't going to be important to everyone, but I would think that the things that Reckoner mentioned would be more commonly seen as important by many.

That wasn't the intended impression I wanted to make, so let me see if I can expand on it for better clarification on my stance.

I'm pretty certain that I'm attracted to this story for how it is being coordinated rather than the marginalized affect Kyoto Animation tend to generate among all type of fans including you. I've always watched what I've wanted regardless of which studio was behind it as long as there was something for me to enjoy. This is no exception. I really do find this show attractive for exactly what it is for all its weakness and strength. Now if we are discussing the technical boundaries then I think that the visualization or how the source material is alone won't do this show any justice. I think it has already been agreed upon that the source material isn't a very strong one in terms of originality, imagination, and how ordinary it is. As soon as it's being animated, the other dimension of an animated story kicks into place such as script writing, voice acting, music, background imagery, etc. which brings KyoAni in the discussion of SAFE. Now we can go to our original topic of conversation here, that if this show is safe. Saying this show is SAFE based on the story's uninspiring nature because it's not breaking any grounds doesn't rings quiet enough cause it is excluding the affect of the Animation Studio. So my definition of SAFE overlaps with Reckoner's very easily. I'm sure you will agree that not every anime is original or ground breaking with its story or what it has to offer. And yet, we have seen many such story that has attracted fans based on how the story was developed by an Animation Studio. Onegai Sensei vs. Ano Natsu de Matteiru isn't a perfect example, but I'm mentioning it anyway cause that's the best I can think of right now to project the affect that a repeat-idea automatically means safe. I'm simply suggesting that his view isn't exploring other factors of what separates a visual medium such as anime than a manga/novel to consider why he thinks this is SAFE. A been-there done-that story can be different than its predecessor. I think Hyouka is not safe, more so, because it's KyoAni who is doing it. A safe show was the 2nd season of Haruhi, or K-ON. A safe show would have been another animated Key novel. Hyouka isn't SAFE.

Reckoner pointedly quoted Detective Conan which aired its first episode when he was 4 years old. The point is there aren't many mystery-only anime with such setting (seen in Detective Conan or Hyouka) without injecting some sort of supernatural/horror angle into it. Hyouka is even more alien in its type of storytelling if we compare it to Detective Conan. Hyouka is almost like Seinfield based on its a-show-about-nothing theme, well except it is a mystery anime. The challenge for any Studio to animate such show is great cause in the end the goal is to give the fans something (those intangibles) so they will comeback to watch another episode of it. For KyoAni, that challenge is even greater because of those controversial decision making they have been undertaking since the days of Endless Eight. I also have to admit that I believe Hyouka elevates KyoAni a whole lot just because the story demands creativity from almost every aspect of animating (voice acting, script writing, music, etc.). KyoAni hasn't been challenged a whole lot to showcase their ability in the past because the source material took care of creativity and what not. That's not the case this time around. Hence, my conclusion this SHOW isn't safe and we can't separate KyoAni even if we are looking at the question from a technical point of view which analyzes the story (from what it is offering, excitement, setting etc.) just because this is an anime.

Btw, other than Haruhi S1 and FMP, I don't have much opinion about KyoAni's work. They aren't even that prolific at animating movement. They are certainly above average when it comes to making vivid background imagery, the amount of detail they put forth at character designing, and paying attention to detail. That said few other studios can do those things even better and have done so consistently long before KyoAni acquired it's fame.

P.S. Out of curiosity I looked up Mazui's Bittorrent tracker to see the download count and it seems more people are downloading it from bittorrent as the show progresses. Episodes 6-9 averaged around 17K while episodes 1-3 averaged around 8K. I don't think it will be much of a stretch to say that the show isn't losing any viewers. On the contrary, it may have gained a few every passing episodes.