(L) Shingeki no Bahamut ~Virgin Soul~ (S2)

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

another note he indeed killed the peoples but because he knew which they could be resurrected with the dragon balls, this was explained, he don't did for the "lulz", he did because he knew it could make goku want take him serious and that peoples could be resurrected later.

Wow...just wow...

So, intentionally killing people (just to make your rival fight you seriously) because they can be resurrected later is somehow not a despicable act? What if someone someday rape the female members of your family to his heart's content and feel no guilt about it because he can somehow restore their bodies back to normal before the deed was done? You're gonna be okay with that too?

I won't even bother answering the rest of your comments. I know better.

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Wow...just wow...

So, intentionally killing people (just to make your rival fight you seriously) because they can be resurrected later is somehow not a despicable act? What if someone someday rape the female members of your family to his heart's content and feel no guilt about it because he can somehow restore their bodies back to normal before the deed was done? You're gonna be okay with that too?

I won't even bother answering the rest of your comments. I know better.

on that time he was still not "a totally good person you know, he only cared about his family he was still not goving too much of a cheat and ended being killed after that, you know what not happened with charioce, and if was that how about awesome goku which also due to many of his crap decision let peoples dying too, then following your logic goku is another crap scum in the world, because due to his crap in not killing black goku early when he had a chance a whole time line and countless lifes where lost, also when he allowed kids to fight buu and others things.

the point is which vegita did a lot of crap things but every time he did he get punished and with the worst punishment possible which was his own life, while charioce no, just get a almost perfect happy ending, being a "hero" from a situation which was himself which started, which lead to many peoples losing they lifes, making the whole war again happening and even threatning his own "love interest".

what i'm saying which vegita was a crap person in past but he get punished and changed for the good while charioce never showed any sign of changing and did all the crap things due to a crap vengeance.

another thing which you must remember is which vegita come from a world where the "bad guys" won the civil war turning his world a world only for "evilness" and being crap and evil is "fine and normal", only after come in contact which earth which he learned the other "side" making a almost opposite path with goku which started with a good person taking care of him and have friends and family to support but instead of it make him a better person was making the opposite as he keep being more apart from "normal life" and going more and more looking fo "chaos and battles because that is the only thing goku like in his life.

i'm still failling to see your comparation, comparing a guy which started evil but slowly along the story turned in a nice guy with a guy which started a scum and slowly turned in a mass genocide obessessed with a revenge to the point of killing his own family like a famous "NK fat dictator".

srry no matter how you try to paint both as equal i really can't see it, it's the same you are saying which vegita also "get everything easy" and he not get death or shamefull and others punishment for his actions, srry look very dumb it for me.

anyway let's just disagree in that point, because i really can't see the paralel of 2 peoples where one evolved from a monster to a hero and another which goes from a basic villian to a creep monster.

another paralel could be when vegita was the villian in his arc he was punished and defeated, while charioce no, when frieza was the boss and he a "secondary enemie he get punished humiliated and killed, chairoce no, when he was in the transition between a crap and good guy he did something bad and get punished which loosing his life again.

he get punished in every time he was bad and that punishment get worst was he get bad, while "charioce no" then you comparation is really that bad.

following your own logic, if since vegita was pretty much like charioce he got defeated and killed, why charioce not??, just answer, why charioce is better than vegita to not get a real good punishment rater tham just "being blind" but still being a king, have a hot waifus and a big hero from something which was his fault in the beginner, he is just a hero because the "commoners" don't know which was him which did everything, i really doubt he could still being a king and heroe if peoples find out who was the one starting all that crap.

edit: now which i remember, piccolo also pulled that "kill peoples move" in buu, when he was buy time for goten and trunks and say to buu go kill everyone in the world with the same "they will be ressurected later" also if i'm not wrong goku also pulled something like that one time, using the dragon balls as excuse for some sacrifices, then you can't really blame only vegita for that.

[Albel VII]

Vegeta became popular precisely because he was a higly amusing and cool asshole. That's it. Being a bad guy never really prevented any character from getting massively popular. Dio, Accelerator, that guy from Made in the Abyss, Alucard, the entire Drifters cast, Gilgamesh, Yuno, etc. are all beloved characters despite their nature. Because they have that much charisma. In other words, they are fun to watch despite being awful people.

The main problem with Charioce is that he just simply doesn't have much charisma as a character. Not that many would mind him and his atrocities if he was highly enertaining to watch. (Just look at my examples.) But the guy is quite boring as an anti-villain. He is very deadpan most of the time and the character moments which flesh him out are quite subtle and rare so he just simply doesn't have much charisma, that's it.

[shmaster]

Originally Posted by Tong

But you do not know that, this is an assumption. The epilogue happens basically right after the war and both sides, demons and gods, are still recovering.

We probably wont know that for real until the next season since Bahamut doesnt foreshadows future events in the last episode (remember Genesis' ending?).
And looking at how things are going so far, the next season might focus on the gods' side (S1 - demons, S2 - humans).

Originally Posted by Alhazred

I also disagree that the show is propping up the "ends justify the means" point of view, since Charioce didn't even achieve his desired end despite all the terrible things he did. Bahamut is still alive and sooner or later he is going to find out, and that will not sit well with him at all. As with the first season, the consequences are not so much avoided as postponed, and the final reckoning is still in the future.

Oh please, and people are starting bring up a third season that may or may not exist to justify their argument?
Instead of judging the show by its own merit?
*rolls eye

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Albel VII

Vegeta became popular precisely because he was a higly amusing and cool asshole. That's it. Being a bad guy never really prevented any character from getting massively popular. Dio, Accelerator, that guy from Made in the Abyss, Alucard, the entire Drifters cast, Gilgamesh, Yuno, etc. are all beloved characters despite their nature. Because they have that much charisma. In other words, they are fun to watch despite being awful people.

The main problem with Charioce is that he just simply doesn't have much charisma as a character. Not that many would mind him and his atrocities if he was highly enertaining to watch. (Just look at my examples.) But the guy is quite boring as an anti-villain. He is very deadpan most of the time and the character moments which flesh him out are quite subtle and rare so he just simply doesn't have much charisma, that's it.

Oh, please. Don't act like all the salty comments in the last pages are only caused by Charioce being a boring and non-entertaining character. Many of them are outright complaining how Charioce "won" or "got happy ending" despite all the atrocities he had done which is nothing new in anime.

EDIT:
And Blueknight78's posts above and below conveniently provided me with proofs against your argument.

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Oh, please. Don't act like all the salty comments in the last pages are only caused by Charioce being a boring and non-entertaining character. Many of them are outright complaining how Charioce "won" or "got happy ending" despite all the atrocities he had done which is hardly nothing new in anime.

the problem is more why he "get a happy ending with a almost little to "none punishment" after all the crap he did, because this only make the "eveil not getting his proper punishment, if he get a end happy after that is another story but get a "happy ending without any punishment for all his crap or a minor to none is worst is the same of say "which you can go crap and be full evil which nothing really big bad gonna happen with you and you even gonna get rewarded.

[MgMaster]

Since this was the direction the story was going ~ while definitely not the best ~ I'd have preferred if at least Nina & Chaorice would have ran away together or something, as Jeanne,the gods,Azazel & the demons letting him go to continue to be king just like that kind of stretches it. Or if he's still to be king, show that he at least was forced into a deal with Jeanna & Azazel or Lucifer, that he has to make up for his wrongdoings towards the gods & demons in some way ~ a minute or two at would've been enough for this even.

That aside, I the overall show was a blast, with the 1st part setting up some very high expectations, higher than that of the 1st season, tho sadly didn't meet em.

It'd be hard for me to chose a favorite between this season & the 1st:

- Genesis never set such high expectations and allowed people to enjoy it for what it was, while also impressing with the great chemistry that FAVAROOOOO & KAISAAARRR had.

- On the other hand, Virgin Soul, was setting up to be a potential masterpiece, but that was based on touching more complex themes, rather than character chemistry, and didn't push through with said themes until the end. The cast was colorful for sure, and the potential for some good chemistry between say, Azazel & Kaisar was there. Then there's Jeanne's part with El which was a pretty powerful moment. Sadly, it all took a backseat in favor of the Nina & Chaorice romance, who even individually weren't the best characters the show had to offer.

'Tis a bit frustrating if you think about it. I mean, the way Azazel had so much presence in the 1st half, and heck, even in the opening, you'd have expected him to not be relegated to a side character later on. What's further annoying is, even if you consider the possibility of a 3rd season, this feels like a missed opportunity for him, and the subjugated demons(who caused misery themselves to humans in the past) plot point.


EDIT: Okay, on rewatching some crucial moments of the final episodes of Genesis, I can say for sure that I prefer it to this. Ah, that awesome duel between Favaro & Kaisar as everything was crashing down, and fooling their enemy in a way only the two of them could've thought up ~ by Kaisar getting his freaking arm chopped off! Then that last sequence at the very end is brilliant IMO. Kaisar, who's known to be the knight in shining armor, virtuous & all that, despite being part of the Orlean Knights under Jeanne, misses an important gathering to just go horse riding with the Favaro and have some fun - loved it. A blind Chaorice & mute Nina dancing, as nicely animated as it was, just can't match that.

[Albel VII]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Oh, please. Don't act like all the salty comments in the last pages are only caused by Charioce being a boring and non-entertaining character. Many of them are outright complaining how Charioce "won" or "got happy ending" despite all the atrocities he had done which is nothing new in anime.

Did I really imply all of the comments are caused by this? Did I really? I wrote "not that many would mind him", which I think is true. If he was a more charismatic character more people in the audence would like him and as such not that many people would mind the outcome of the second season. Sure, not all of them, but some of them would surely feel this way. If they made him really-really awesome then probably most of them. I mean, Code Geass says hello.

At the very least, I didn't like the ending, and I wouldn't care as much if he was awesome, that's for sure.

As you said, this type of thing has happened before, people just didn't always mind it this much. There are reasons why a bunch of people didn't mind it, and I believe one of these reasons is what I've described in my previous post.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Albel VII

Did I really imply all of the comments are caused by this? Did I really? I wrote "not that many would mind him", which I think is true. If he was a more charismatic character more people in the audence would like him and as such not that many people would mind the outcome of the second season. Sure, not all of them, but some of them would surely feel this way. If they made him really-really awesome then probably most of them. I mean, Code Geass says hello.

At the very least, I didn't like the ending, and I wouldn't care as much if he was awesome, that's for sure.

As you said, this type of thing has happened before, people just didn't always mind it this much. There are reasons why a bunch of people didn't mind it, and I believe one of these reasons is what I've described in my previous post.

It doesn't help your case that numerous comments in past pages are more interested in addressing Charioce's atrocities and how he "got away with it" rather than complaining how boring he is .

[Applehell]

Haha, last couple pages of this thread remind me of the reactions to Gundam: Iron Orphan S2 and Re:Creator final episodes. I can at least give Chris a little credit for being less reprehensible than Rustal tho.

There is a lot to pick apart about this ending and the last episodes both from both an entertainment and narrative point of view this might be the worse than Chris being treated as a bona fide hero rather than a controversial figure.

Originally Posted by Alhazred

I also disagree that the show is propping up the "ends justify the means" point of view, since Charioce didn't even achieve his desired end despite all the terrible things he did. Bahamut is still alive and sooner or later he is going to find out, and that will not sit well with him at all. As with the first season, the consequences are not so much avoided as postponed, and the final reckoning is still in the future.

Yes, but in turn it basically means everything that happened up til last episode was pointless. All the deaths, sacrifices, turmoil (both emotional and physical), the war, breaking the deal early, and even Chris own personal losses were in vain. The entire season feels like it just waste of time for viewer because of that too. Well I guess if liked NinaxChris there something there. So in that sense Favaro's revelation actually makes things worse.

Best parts of this episode was seeing Amira again even if was brief and Zombie Kaisar if not just for the dark humor. Otherwise I'm in the camp feels this was a poor sequel, probably as bad as Darker Than Black S2.

[MgMaster]

Originally Posted by Applehell

Haha, last couple pages of this thread remind me of the reactions to Gundam: Iron Orphan S2 and Re:Creator final episodes. I can at least give Chris a little credit for being less reprehensible than Rustal tho.

Seems to be a running theme lately: "Truly despicable people are just misunderstood!". Lots of people on reddit in particular are like, "But that's pretty realistic, the bad guys come out ahead pretty often in our world." and while we can't deny that, a lot of us want to at least see 'em get what's coming to them in fiction.

Hmm,thinking about all this actually got me in the mood to watch Jigoku Shoujo... There should be two OVAs for Chaorice & Rustal

[willyvereb]

No punishment? Charioce is now blind and the fact Nina lost her voice is actually another punishment to him. As somebody who can't see he experiences a good portion of the world and especially people through voice. Since Nina is unable to speak Charioce is denied most ways he could be with Nina. Sure, their love prevailed in spite of these and it's nice but don't talk about sensory deprivation as an easy way out. It's torture, especially for a person who used to see. Since we are on a forum this is an interesting thought experiment. It's hard for the seeing to imagine the anguish of the blind, I get it. What if by some reason you can no longer access or even view things from the internet? Let's add inability to use or benefit from telecommunication devices in general to the mix. How would you feel? You still remain in this world with your family and friends but now you're limited to libraries, hearsay and personal meetings. I am sure most people would be able to reorganize their life this way but basically your job is likely over, your social life is practically over or at least altered to a much smaller scale. Yes, you can still be happy. Heck, a simple life like this might be even charming after a while but unless you're a born hermit you'd be damn wish you could use telecommunication methods again. This is the same for blind people. You can live like that, especially if you have people to help but barring a few odd exceptions there aren't any blind people who wouldn't like to actually see the world.
Getting away easy, my arse. This is worse than any punishment that could've incurred on him. Kill him? He outright sought it. Put him on trial, destroy his reputation and jail him? Wouldn't give a damn. Charioce being blind while Nina mute is the punishment that actually stings for him.

Also let's talk about him remaining in power. For starters Charioce only became a king for the purpose of killing Bahamut. He didn't intend to remain so after his mission is done for sure. That probably also eventually became the answer to his growing guilt. He does everything selfishly and will eventually pay with his life for it. Well, guess what? He can't just go out like this. Running away could've been a reward, he's free while being with Nina. But he's bound by Kaisar's death wish and the ongoing political situation now and stuck as a king. Yes, Charioce remaining the king is also a punishment. For him.

Lastly while it may hurt your sense of justice leaving Charioce on the throne was the only reasonable choice. Anything else would only result in more chaos, more deaths and all sides were sick of it. Charioce XVII is a legitimate leader to the government of Anatae, who else would take his place? Jeanne? She's charismatic but not much of a leader and even less of a ruler. Her taking the throne would also lead to several issues given her past or the fact she's connected to the Gods. It'd be viewed as creating a puppet state, for example. We live in a world which has clear examples of how deposing tyrannic leaders won't just magically create peace. It usually leads to a hellhole far worse. It might be shocking to you but in spite of everything Charioce XVII is apparently the best king Anatae had in a long while. He doesn't feel privileged but views kingship as a duty to people, he isn't a paranoiac weak scumbag like the original line of Charioces were, he boosted the economy and technology of the country and he practically won all his wars. From humans' perspective the only issue was that he went against the tradition of revering Gods and that two of his battles were in the capital thus people who experienced loss might blame him (and the Gods). You know, I mentioned Mathias Corvinus before. He's remembered in history as "The Just King" even though he was a massive prick both domestically and internationally. This might help you to illustrate why Charioce have powerful support. You can hate him, you might disagree with the idea of people like him leading a country. In certain fictions such people can be also magically removed and replaced with a super nice ruler pulled out from the writers' sphincter. But saying that Charioce remaining on the throne is stretching it? Yeah, you don't quite get the circumstances.

tl;dr
Charioce is already punished in the one way that actually hurts him. Keeping him on the throne is no reward, either. Also dethroning Charioce realistically would've been far more harmful than the satisfaction you gain from it.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

I'm not going to read back because I have a pretty good hunch as to what's been going on here in the past weeks, but I guess there may be some people here who are interested in this one detail.

There's a pretty serious translation fuck-up in this episode - well, at least one serious translation fuck-up, going by the translator's record there could very well be more, but I stopped looking at the subs after this.

Kaisar's last line - "last" - is not about death being peaceful or whatever the translator misheard and clearly didn't stop thinking about how it makes no sense in context. Kaisar is addressing Charioce and telling him to "create true peace" (真の安寧を). He's paying the price in Charioce's place (on this particular account, anyway) but in exchange he leaves him with a task to understand and honor... understand, first and foremost. It's a task fit for a better person, and while Charioce is never going to be a truly good person, in the end we see that he at least understood, and is presumably working on honoring the wish.

Kaisar and Charioce had some really nice dynamics throughout the show (understated as it was - I wish we'd seen more of it), and this, and where Charioce ended up, was a great conclusion to it. It's a pity that the translation messed this up for sub readers.

By the way if anyone is curious: unsurprisingly I loved the last episode. It was gorgeous-looking and overall lovely, and a great, bittersweet closure to the series. (Even as ultimately about an episode's worth of plot was missing from the story. I wonder what happened there and if we'll ever get the missing detail in any way.) And I really can't praise Umehara Yuuichirou and Morohoshi Sumire enough. They were fantastic, this will definitely become the definitive show for me to match their future performances against.

And with this I'm bowing out again. This show wasn't perfect, but overall I thought it was great, and so I'd rather enjoy it peacefully, without self-absorbed people calling me a Nazi apologist for liking Charioce and thinking he's a fascinating character, warts and all.

which translator?

[zalem]

Originally Posted by MgMaster

Seems to be a running theme lately: "Truly despicable people are just misunderstood!". Lots of people on reddit in particular are like, "But that's pretty realistic, the bad guys come out ahead pretty often in our world." and while we can't deny that, a lot of us want to at least see 'em get what's coming to them in fiction.

Hmm,thinking about all this actually got me in the mood to watch Jigoku Shoujo... There should be two OVAs for Chaorice & Rustal

I was so upset at the Iron Blood Orphans ending I must admit. It still galls me that Gjallarhorn won when they are so despicable. I was hoping at least Rustal would have his actions called out, but no....he gets to be President! Yay?

I don't hate Charioce quite as much as I do Rustal & Co. So this ending doesn't bother me quite as much, but I do feel like Charioce's character was mishandled. He could have been written much better. His methods for achieving his goal were just so freakin stupid. That old dude said it himself, they still had YEARS before Baha would wake up. And instead of using that time to work out a better plan you rush forward with this incredibly dumb one just because you really want your revenge. Ugh.

It's not like I don't like villains or anti-heroes (I love Lelouch), but they have to be written well otherwise it's just not going to work for me.

[willyvereb]

Was it? IIRC while there was time till the Bahamut breaking out of its prison the mechanism Charioce's group put on the seal was rapidly reaching its end. They said if kept up for too long it overloads and the resulting energies would be enough to destroy the entire continent. This is why Charioce was in such a hurry midway the series.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by zalem

It's not like I don't like villains or anti-heroes (I love Lelouch), but they have to be written well otherwise it's just not going to work for me.

TL;DR…

 

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Just my 2-cent

[zalem]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

Was it? IIRC while there was time till the Bahamut breaking out of its prison the mechanism Charioce's group put on the seal was rapidly reaching its end. They said if kept up for too long it overloads and the resulting energies would be enough to destroy the entire continent. This is why Charioce was in such a hurry midway the series.

But that's a problem of their own making. If they didn't put a seal on it that wouldn't have happened and they would still have time.

[zalem]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

TL;DR…

 

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Just my 2-cent

But the characterization, reasoning and emotional turmoil are a huge part of a character. That's what gets you to like or empathisize with them. Even if some of his tactics made you scratch your head at times. And he really wasn't supposed to be perfect anyway. You were supposed to see him fall on his face and have things come around to bite him on the ass.

Charioce isn't really likeable as a character AND his tactics are stupid. And on top of that he doesn't pay that heavy a price for that stupidity. At least not in my book. I would have preferred some repercussions. Maybe people calling him out on his dumbass plan to bring Bahamut to town. Maybe forcing him to step down as King. Or maybe him realizing he DIDN'T kill Bahamut and all the horrible things he did were basically for nothing. Have that really hit home. Something more. Doesn't necessarily have to be death. The picture the epilogue painted of him being this total hero and seeing the demons just happily working along side humans again was just a bit off for me. I guess maybe next season might fix some of this? Who knows.

[willyvereb]

Originally Posted by zalem

But that's a problem of their own making. If they didn't put a seal on it that wouldn't have happened and they would still have time.

That's the part I don't get, either.
Maybe another translation error somewhere?
The seal might've ruptured even sooner than 10 years if the humans didn't meddle with it. That's how it makes sense.

... Alternatively, they only thought they can stabilize the seal and instead fucked up so they then went for the desperate measures involving the retrival of the Dromos pieces. That can actually make sense. They were cocky and thought their methods can ensure the seal will last longer but instead they've done the opposite and were struggling against a tickling time bomb.

Either way, they had a reason to hurry. Whether it was by necessity or their own hubris is questionable.

[Alhazred]

Originally Posted by shmaster

Oh please, and people are starting bring up a third season that may or may not exist to justify their argument?
Instead of judging the show by its own merit?
*rolls eye

...what? What argument did i make that depends on there being a third season? The fact is that Charioce failed to achieve his desired end, so nobody in the story or out of it can say that this outcome proves that the end justified the means, which means if the show were trying to make that point it would be doing a damn poor job of it.

Originally Posted by Applehell

Yes, but in turn it basically means everything that happened up til last episode was pointless. All the deaths, sacrifices, turmoil (both emotional and physical), the war, breaking the deal early, and even Chris own personal losses were in vain. The entire season feels like it just waste of time for viewer because of that too. Well I guess if liked NinaxChris there something there. So in that sense Favaro's revelation actually makes things worse.

Yes, if we start with the end of the last season, everything leading up to and occurring in this season was pretty much pointless and self-defeating, with only tiny bright spots here and there. To me it feels like that was kind of the intent. If this were the second in a trilogy of movies then this would be the middle entry with the downer ending that sets up the comeback in the final entry.