(L) Noragami

[monir]

Originally Posted by bakaouji

We wouldn't be having this same conversation if his method didn't work and instead backfired on him. But it would work no matter what because that's how the story's written. If you run it in your head, there's very little chance of it working the way it was shown in the episode.

I think that's where our fault lies. As long we get results, we tend to not care how we went about getting them.

Okay, then how exactly would you rewrite the scenario so the same message can be conveyed? Also....

A little kid like him shouldn't even be able grasp to the concept of humanity let alone be afraid of losing it.

I don't exactly understand what you are saying here. Can you clarify further?

[Iron Maw]

Looks like that original character has been added to OP, despite literally having only one appearance and line of dialogue.

I thought that little bit where Bishamon asked Kofuku about Yato was much more funny in the manga since Hiyori and Yukine were there at time hiding from her.

Images

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Aki really nailed the part where she got serious with Bishamon though. Love that tone!

Originally Posted by bakaouji

It's a conscious decision made by the studio so the responsibility lies with them. If they chose a smaller episode count despite knowing that they couldn't cram the source material into a 'mere' single cour then they're at fault for making the wrong decision. In this case, Bones actually went as far as to alter the adaptation so as to fit the story into the smaller episode count with mixed results imo. The pacing is tight and the tension is real but there's not a whole lot the show has done with its rich setting that could add the story some heft.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not trying separate the responsibility of how a show turns out from the studio. I'm just saying episode count isn't non factor, but one of the contributing causes to adaptation failure. As you said its less of an issue if altercations are done early enough like Noragami, but its not always the case. Even with the changes happening now, because the anime has followed the source this far there still going to be some unresolved or disconnected plot threads in this arc unless the anime really ramps up the pacing.

[bakaouji]

Originally Posted by monir

Okay, then how exactly would you rewrite the scenario so the same message can be conveyed?

I already did in my earlier post. Teach the kid to fend for himself. Teach the kid to use his fists to make a point so that he can't be bullied anymore. The bruises on the bully's face will be proof enough for others like him to realize that he's not gonna be pushed around anymore. The kid has to learn to make a stand. Giving him a knife and telling him to make a choice is not the way to go about it.

Originally Posted by monir

I don't exactly understand what you are saying here. Can you clarify further?

He was just a little kid. There's little chance he'd even understand what 'losing humanity' means. And its not even like he was on the verge of losing it. It only got to that point because he was possessed by a phantom, which Yato could've easily dealt with.

Originally Posted by Iron Maw

As you said its less of an issue if alterations are done early enough like Noragami, but its not always the case. Even with the changes happening now, because the anime has followed the source this far there still going to be some unresolved or disconnected plot threads in this arc unless the anime really ramps up the pacing.

lol no, I wasn't implying that Noragami isn't without problems because it altered the story a little to suit its narrative. Quite the opposite, in fact. Even with all the changes it has made, it's plagued with its own fair share of problems which I listed approx. two pages ago. I'm not denying that a short episode count isn't a factor for a show that might seem rushed or broken; what I'm saying is that it's not valid criticism. You can't use that excuse to justify bad writing or bad pacing.

They've barely introduced an anime original character who we all know is extremely important but at best, he's only gonna appear in the last few episodes. Its obvious that the ending might go either way depending on how they're gonna use this new character.

[zztop]

Has the manga elaborated on how Yukine died, or who he used to be when he was alive?

[Cloudedmind]

Originally Posted by bakaouji

I already did in my earlier post. Teach the kid to fend for himself. Teach the kid to use his fists to make a point so that he can't be bullied anymore. The bruises on the bully's face will be proof enough for others like him to realize that he's not gonna be pushed around anymore. The kid has to learn to make a stand. Giving him a knife and telling him to make a choice is not the way to go about it.

Huh, perhaps I should have tried this, oh wait I did, still got bullied though. You can't always fight your way out with fists either, especially when it's a group and they're all stronger than you.

[Vindi89]

Originally Posted by bakaouji

He was just a little kid. There's little chance he'd even understand what 'losing humanity' means. And its not even like he was on the verge of losing it. It only got to that point because he was possessed by a phantom, which Yato could've easily dealt with.

I think you're putting too much stock in our world values and trying to translate them to a world where phantoms can possess/ influence people into doing crazy things. That said, we're suppose to take main characters understanding of the world more so than our common sense would tell us otherwise based on our experience in our world.

Also from what I understood from this episode, the phantom was going to show up again unless that kid dealt with his issues. They were attracted to his despair and would continue to unless he dealt with it. So Yato dealing with the phantom would be a temporary solution.

[Biohazardous]

Based off the last few responses for the method used especially Cloud. Id say the box cutter provides a bigger impact to the bully. Sure he could have got the bully alone again and tried fists but, the bully would have probally just laughed. At first he acted his usual way til the box cutter was pulled out. Going that far is what returned the fear. Its kind of crazy to take things so far you are going to use a weapon on someone. it was wrong to do yes but, as others have said it got the job done.

[bakaouji]

Originally Posted by Cloudedmind

Huh, perhaps I should have tried this, oh wait I did, still got bullied though. You can't always fight your way out with fists either, especially when it's a group and they're all stronger than you.

So did you threaten your bullies at knife point and tell them to back off? Maybe the method I proposed doesn't work in every situation but arming someone is definitely not the answer. You really don't have to take my alternative proposition as a slight on your personal experience.

Originally Posted by Vindi89

Also from what I understood from this episode, the phantom was going to show up again unless that kid dealt with his issues. They were attracted to his despair and would continue to unless he dealt with it. So Yato dealing with the phantom would be a temporary solution.

So the only solution to that is to push everyone who's infected (or prone to infection) to the brink and expect them to realize on their own that they shouldn't cross the line? If the kid was taught how to fend for himself, he'd never have gotten infected in the first place. Prevention is better than cure.

[Vindi89]

Originally Posted by bakaouji

So the only solution to that is to push everyone who's infected (or prone to infection) to the brink and expect them to realize on their own that they shouldn't cross the line? If the kid was taught how to fend for himself, he'd never have gotten infected in the first place. Prevention is better than cure.

By the time Yato got involved prevention was already out of the window. I'm not saying its the only option, I'm saying don't think too much about it lol. Seriously its a world where phantoms possess and influence people.. how can you be hung up about this?

Real people are infinitely more complex than a character on a page (or screen), people shouldn't be basing their standards of morality on a fictional character or story scenario.

[Cloudedmind]

Originally Posted by bakaouji

So did you threaten your bullies at knife point and tell them to back off? Maybe the method I proposed doesn't work in every situation but arming someone is definitely not the answer. You really don't have to take my alternative proposition as a slight on your personal experience.

No, I picked up a bat, told people I'd start busting heads in and then went to town on some surrounding objects, basically I pulled a Yukine, :P except not on windows I think I knocked over and beat on some trashcans and other stuff while screaming, people thought I'd gone batshit crazy so most of them started leaving me alone. I knew a girl who use to carry a knife in her purse, in some places you do what you gotta do, and you do what works. *shrugs*

[bakaouji]

Originally Posted by Vindi89

By the time Yato got involved prevention was already out of the window. I'm not saying its the only option, I'm saying don't think too much about it lol. Seriously its a world where phantoms possess and influence people.. how can you be hung up about this?

Real people are infinitely more complex than a character on a page (or screen), people shouldn't be basing their standards of morality on a fictional character or story scenario.

Seems like the presence of these phantoms gives Yato the freedom to take extreme measures to cure his patients.

The existence of supernatural elements doesn't automatically afford the show to do as it pleases. In this case, our standards differ-- that's all there is to it. You can let it go because you don't think it's a big deal, but don't expect the same from me. And I'm not hung up. I like talking about this stuff and I believe that the anime medium is much more intricate and complex than what people usually are led to believe.

It's clear where we all stand on this issue and I think we've talked about everything we could on this matter so I'm gonna respectfully bow out of this discussion before things derail any further.

@Cloudedminded

In the end, you dealt with your problem yourself. It worked out for you. And you seemed to be in control of what you were doing and you used the bat as more a means of self-defense than anything. In Manabu's case the bully was already scared shitless even before he took out the knife so its obvious that extreme measures were uncalled for.

[Cloudedmind]

Originally Posted by bakaouji

@Cloudedminded

In the end, you dealt with your problem yourself. It worked out for you. And you seemed to be in control of what you were doing and you used the bat as more a means of self-defense than anything. In Manabu's case the bully was already scared shitless even before he took out the knife so its obvious that extreme measures were uncalled for.

If he had just continued to stare at the guy menacingly perhaps saying something like leave me alone, and then walked away the guy might have laughed it off as a joke, and then later on got his buddies and continued on with the bullying. When you start pulling out knives and stuff, and give one to your enemy like we're really about to do this people tend to get the point. It's serious business now, and anyone who's not serious about it will back down usually. I'm not saying everyone should arm themselves or that you always need to resort to that measure, but I don't discount it as a valid means to solve some problems.

[orion]

Originally Posted by bakaouji

@Cloudedminded

In the end, you dealt with your problem yourself. It worked out for you. And you seemed to be in control of what you were doing and you used the bat as more a means of self-defense than anything. In Manabu's case the bully was already scared shitless even before he took out the knife so its obvious that extreme measures were uncalled for.

Originally Posted by Cloudedmind

If he had just continued to stare at the guy menacingly perhaps saying something like leave me alone, and then walked away the guy might have laughed it off as a joke, and then later on got his buddies and continued on with the bullying. When you start pulling out knives and stuff, and give one to your enemy like we're really about to do this people tend to get the point. It's serious business now, and anyone who's not serious about it will back down usually. I'm not saying everyone should arm themselves or that you always need to resort to that measure, but I don't discount it as a valid means to solve some problems.

I agree with Cloudedmind. Nowadays, to get bullies to backdown, you practically have to impress upon them that this is serious business physically since they have a gang element to them.

[apotheosis]

As someone who has been bullied in my childhood, I'd say ... if it was as simple as 'hey today I decide I'm going to fight back' then I wouldn't have been bullied in the first place. I would have stood up to them the first time & exchanged blows & that probably would have been enough to make the first time the last.

But when you are taught not to fight back & go to authority instead, then it teaches the bullies that they can get away with it. Something else had to change to get me or someone in that situation to fight back. Is a knife the optimal or even a good way to do it? Pretty clearly not ... but they have never made Yato out to be awesome at his job (I mean, he's a god but still homeless!). It did at least give the kid some confidence to fight back & he had a message to make the kid think about how far he should go. Would it work IRL? Probably the kids would be dead from stabbing each other & we'd have another school tragedy .. but then many things in anime/manga wouldn't work (very often) IRL either.

The bat mentioned above is a much better example and safer implement as long as you don't swing for the head. Or if the kid was a bigger character in the anime, maybe there is time for him to get martial arts training to improve his own confidence. After a few training montage scenes he can fight back without needing any weapons or some such time honored cliche.

[Bern-san]

In my opinion Yato just hates bullied people, whether because he gets too many requests from them or some other reason.

Spoiler for manga chapter 1:

In the first chapter of the manga killing the ayakashi didn't solve Mutsumi's bullying (the girl who appeared in the first minutes of episode 1). When Mutsumi complained to Yato he told her told that it's her own fault she got bullied because she's so annoying
Only because Tomone/Mayu got angry at Yato, he ended up cutting Mutsumi's ties with her classmates so she has another chance to built a proper relationship with them.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by Flower

Must admit that Kofuku facing down Bishamon was a big "woohoo!" moment for me. Was nice to see someone with similar clout telling Bishamon to back off, mind her own business and realize that getting her personal grudges involved with things will draw consequences.

Eh, I thought that move was to be expected, considering her lofty attitude doesn't fit someone who is addressed as a poweful god. She didn't become one had she possessed no ability to become one.


As for Yukine's behavior, I imagine other Shinki went through similar ordeals. I don't think any one of them happily left the living side, only the ones who lived through the dark now get to serve the gods, others probably turned into ayakashi. I don't feel sorry for Yukine, the kid clearly isn't Shinki material. That other gods, who have Shinki of their own and know a thing or two about raising a Sekki, find a blighted Yato problematic enough to take him and Yukine out, to me, says a swifter and more cruel fate awaited Yukine had he been acquired by any other god. No doubt, Yato is, in his own way, helping him out.


As for the general feeling about the show, personally I feel like this whole Yukine drama is being stretched out of proportions, because the goals of the series have been poorly conceptualized from the getgo. It's like the series is trying to keep itself in what I call setback mode. Such prolonged drama doesn't fit an ambitious story.

[Irisiel]

Ok, knowing next to nothing of the manga, I decided to speculate a bit about Bishamonten and Yato's past, lets see if I can predict anything:

Spoiler for Speculations ahoy!:

In the past, Bishamonten had two regalia; Kazuma & the one Yato killed; Something-ma? Anyway, as war gods in a warring era, both Bishamonten and Yato were pretty powerful back then. Unfortunately, Bishamon's other regalia started to act out. In a major way, and Bishamon was getting blighted, but because she might have been extremely attached to this regalia, she ignored the bad signs. Possibly the regalia started killing people and she started making his victims into regalia in an effort of making up for their deaths and giving them a second chance, believing that it would lessen her regalia's sins.

Kazuma tries to get Bishamon to purify or un-name the other regalia, but cannot because of her attachment, so he goes to the other gods for help. They refuse, due to the messy nature of the whole thing, and because Bishamon would never forgive the god who intervenes. Furthermore, it is an era in which Bishamon is at her most powerful, so anyone other than a wargod would practically commit suicide if they did anything.

Enter Yato, who doesn't particularly care what anyone thinks of him, and he agrees to Kazuma's request and uses the nora regalia to kill Bishamon's rampaging regalia, possibly justifying it with it being a war era and having a wargod blighting is particularly bad.

Ergo, Kazuma sees Yato as the one who saved Bishamon, and is forever grateful of that, and at the same time, other gods respect Yato for having done what had to be done, even at the cost of Bishamon's hatred (as a minor wargod, Yato might even have been in some way associated with Bishamon in a closer aspect than regular gods, as well). This might be why two relatively affluent gods don't mind him crashing at their places and/or being disrespectful.

I'm probably completely wrong, though if that's so, then Yato has been solving problems with violence for a long time.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by bakaouji

If you run it in your head, there's very little chance of it working the way it was shown in the episode.

I think that's where our fault lies. As long we get results, we tend to not care how we went about getting them.

I don't think anyone is actively condoning giving a child a knife, and I don't think it's fair for you to say that anyone is just because they disagree with you.

What I have been trying to say is that Yato's method did scare off the bully -- I don't know how you can argue that threatening someone with a knife is ever on the same level as threatening someone with your bare fists --
and it did get Manabu to take the first step.

So for you to deny the results and efforts made just because you disapprove of the method is just as disingenuous as agreeing with a violent method.


The idea is not "Yato should give bullied victims knives to fend for themselves". Yato outright tells Manabu the method is inhumane (which is why the phantom tempted him to do it), and Manabu opts not to follow through with it for that reason alone. The message is the exact opposite - that victims shouldn't stoop so low or they'll be even more cruel than the bullies they hate.

[BW95]

Originally Posted by bakaouji

We wouldn't be having this same conversation if his method didn't work and instead backfired on him. But it would work no matter what because that's how the story's written. A little kid like him shouldn't even be able grasp to the concept of humanity let alone be afraid of losing it. If you run it in your head, there's very little chance of it working the way it was shown in the episode.

I think that's where our fault lies. As long we get results, we tend to not care how we went about getting them.

No. Even if the kid decided to cross the line, Yato would have gotten rid of the phantom, which would've brought him back to his senses. The chances of him wanting to continue to his little standoff that would've ended with blood on his hands was practically nil and he would've still learned a valuable lesson.

Fault? Results? Like I said, there wasn't as much risk as you thought and the new insight Manabu gained is invaluable.

Originally Posted by bakaouji

I already did in my earlier post. Teach the kid to fend for himself. Teach the kid to use his fists to make a point so that he can't be bullied anymore. The bruises on the bully's face will be proof enough for others like him to realize that he's not gonna be pushed around anymore. The kid has to learn to make a stand. Giving him a knife and telling him to make a choice is not the way to go about it.

He was just a little kid. There's little chance he'd even understand what 'losing humanity' means. And its not even like he was on the verge of losing it. It only got to that point because he was possessed by a phantom, which Yato could've easily dealt with.

Really? That's your solution? Barring the amount of effort and time that'd take, not to even mention the probability of success, even if Yato could turn this guy into a skilled fighter to fend off bullies that wouldn't change anything. More bullies would come later and he'd eventually be on his own again. Contrary to Manabu's initial request, this wasn't just a matter of stopping future bullying. This was a matter of fixing his entire social life, present and future, which if you've ever read Yahari you'd know was absolutely no easy task, I dare say even for a god.

I don't think you fully comprehend just how incredibly valuable Manabu's new outlook is. He is now full aware that there is a line he will not and cannot cross so he no longer has to spend the rest of his life boiling with anger and resentment. As I said, there wasn't as much risk as you made out to be in the first place and

Originally Posted by Irisiel

Ok, knowing next to nothing of the manga, I decided to speculate a bit about Bishamonten and Yato's past, lets see if I can predict anything:

Spoiler for Speculations ahoy!:

In the past, Bishamonten had two regalia; Kazuma & the one Yato killed; Something-ma? Anyway, as war gods in a warring era, both Bishamonten and Yato were pretty powerful back then. Unfortunately, Bishamon's other regalia started to act out. In a major way, and Bishamon was getting blighted, but because she might have been extremely attached to this regalia, she ignored the bad signs. Possibly the regalia started killing people and she started making his victims into regalia in an effort of making up for their deaths and giving them a second chance, believing that it would lessen her regalia's sins.

Kazuma tries to get Bishamon to purify or un-name the other regalia, but cannot because of her attachment, so he goes to the other gods for help. They refuse, due to the messy nature of the whole thing, and because Bishamon would never forgive the god who intervenes. Furthermore, it is an era in which Bishamon is at her most powerful, so anyone other than a wargod would practically commit suicide if they did anything.

Enter Yato, who doesn't particularly care what anyone thinks of him, and he agrees to Kazuma's request and uses the nora regalia to kill Bishamon's rampaging regalia, possibly justifying it with it being a war era and having a wargod blighting is particularly bad.

Ergo, Kazuma sees Yato as the one who saved Bishamon, and is forever grateful of that, and at the same time, other gods respect Yato for having done what had to be done, even at the cost of Bishamon's hatred (as a minor wargod, Yato might even have been in some way associated with Bishamon in a closer aspect than regular gods, as well). This might be why two relatively affluent gods don't mind him crashing at their places and/or being disrespectful.

I'm probably completely wrong, though if that's so, then Yato has been solving problems with violence for a long time.

Very impressive.

[Elestia]

Does Hiyori ever "do" anything in this series? I've caught up with the series and find myself enjoying the show, but I really was hoping Hiyori would be a stronger character than being pushed mainly to the sidelines as a support character.