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Old 2020-01-16, 23:27   Link #141
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BWTraveller View Post
You seem to be assuming that her defense is actually "absolute" when it doesn't really have to be ...
Absolute Defence (絶対防御) is the name of the skill she gained after tanking bunny for an hour, not that she has absolute defence. I don't mean to say they intended to reward this particular scenario (though really, wny not?) but that it wasn't necessary to even do that kind of thing with thought to Advanced Players.

And I don't think the Defence is in the thousands. Not yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frodonk View Post
I would also like to add that she learned this skill on her first boss dungeon. Imaging getting a skill that makes you immune to physical or magic damage forever even before you hit level 20, that's a really bad game design. Not only that, she learned this without effort on her part because she didn't know what she was doing, normally an OP perk like this could only be obtained through grinding for a long time and mastering the game.
In case it hasn't occurred to some people yet. Hydra is an extremely high level monster. You see how powerful its attack really is to players with VIT in the normal ranges when Maple uses it. Insta-massacre. So basically, most maybe even all parties will go into Hydra's room and be one-shot killed with no time to even use recovery potions or antidotes.

Don't you think withstanding DOZENS of one-shot party-wipe level attacks might fairly allow the reward of immunity? Why should Maple be deprived of it just because it's her second day in the game?
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Old 2020-01-17, 00:11   Link #142
BWTraveller
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Sorry, I realized later that I'd forgotten the name of the skill. I was thinking "absolute defense" as in "complete universal invulnerability".
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Old 2020-01-17, 00:42   Link #143
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Random Wanderer View Post
Well first, it wasn't implemented, it was included accidentally. They didn't expect the combination of skills that resulted in it. And second...
That cannot be an accident. The game outright states "ダメージゼロも夢ではない。" which basically means "Reducing damage to 0 isn't a fleeting dream". It is exactly because of that Kaede went full tank when creating Maple.
By implementing feature that "damage is reduced to 0 with enough VIT" and several skills involving VIT, devs HAD imagined scenarii where players can nullify damage entirely with enough VIT altogether.
If they didn't, then the author really has no idea about storytelling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kukuru View Post
Well stat those traits isn't a problem, she's just a gloried wall, and not even that durable, since she has no HP. Anything that does damage directly will end her, and she can't fight back (normally, eating is the solution to everything it seems).

You'll just end up in a stalemate...if it weren't for her creative use of equipment that slotted certain skills.
Wall durability is not a problem because 1) her armor is self regenerating and self improving 2) she already learned passive regenerating skills, which means she can gain even more of them (passive regen, gains hp based on block, HP drain on attacks etc). So it isn't far fetched to expect her to gain other skills that will compensate her HP disadvantage without much trouble.

"Defense so high you take basically no damage" would make sense if the game didn't have that skill system that allow basically anything to be slotted to your gear for free activation, while you still CAN use your character passive skills on top of that. That's why I mentioned how the narrative is unreasonable to present Maple being able to deal with situations like that by "just sheer luck". Poison immunity is already something that shouldn't happen whatsoever except with your usual scenario where you have gear with such property but lacking with other attribute/stats. The usual RPG thing where you change your party gear in preparation for a certain fight, which happens in MMO at times, but with way more restrictions than in normal RPG (e.g. skill exclusive to a certain gear piece and cannot be transfered). But since skill slotting seems to work for virtually anything, then it is logical to expect exotic skills to be combined with absolute defense and/or speed and whatnot.
And since offensive skills not based on STR or INT exist in that game, you just can create any bizarre glass cannon or build that cheese things without much thought, as long you pick the right skills.
Basically, all the system has huge exploits right from the get go without even thinking too much about it. Again, it is the justification for Maple's being "broken" for the sake of the narrative, but by itself it doesn't make sense in term of MMO settings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
In case it hasn't occurred to some people yet. Hydra is an extremely high level monster. You see how powerful its attack really is to players with VIT in the normal ranges when Maple uses it. Insta-massacre. So basically, most maybe even all parties will go into Hydra's room and be one-shot killed with no time to even use recovery potions or antidotes.
Which is why it doesn't really make sense in the context of the story.
For one, the Hydra was in a dungeon that was recommended by Chrom and Iz. They knew she was a complete newbie. Even if they expect her to be carried by other players, she IS THE TANK. Not only she is supposed to hold mobs at bay for the party, but the dungeon is all about poison to boot. As such, it doesn't make sense for the Hydra to be there, unless Chrom and Iz suggested that dungeon for the lulz.

So either the Hydra is a massively high level monster compared to the dungeon, which is not normal especially the game literally lock you inside of the boss room. Or, the dungeon itself is high level, and Chrom and Iz were bunch of idiots for recommending that based on Maple's profile, while the game doesn't even prevent you to enter the dungeon due to level/stats/gear restrictrions.

Yes, I know RPGs like Xenoblade can troll you extremely hard with named monsters that are drastically higher leveled than other mobs within the same area. But those special monsters are usually not aggressive or in a zone that allow manoeuvering outside of their aggro range. You could eventually find that in some dungeons, but usually as a extra/hidden content, not as the last boss of the dungeon. In a MMO with instanced dungeons, there is no way in hell the game would lock your party to that kind of trap, since it would be unfair for the players and would impose a penalty that cannot be avoided the first time you venture there.

I'm also quite impressed that apparently the skills Maple got from the Hydra aren't scaled down by her level and works completely against other players. You would expect that kind of stuff would scale with your character level to avoid cheese strat, but nope. That's why that cheese strat with Paralyze Shout is another bizarre narrative choice, because that kind of skills would be far less effective against players and monsters with a higher level, but since it is based on the Hydra level and not Maple, looks like it works on virtually anyone.
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Old 2020-01-17, 01:45   Link #144
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
"ダメージゼロも夢ではない。"
Did they say that? Well, first, that's an anime-adaptation artifact. Second, at least it's not fradulent advertisement because you can just about tank a rabbit if you dump everything into VIT - the advertisement makes no guarantees the no-damage will be in all situations. I guess the adaptors were trying to take into account the fact that shield users were a bit thin to the ground and were pushing it a little bit.

Quote:
"Defense so high you take basically no damage" would make sense if the game didn't have that skill system that allow basically anything to be slotted to your gear for free activation, while you still CAN use your character passive skills on top of that.
It can be activated only 5 times. The only flaw with that thinking was that gross eater was an always active skill, so Maple can have it always on.

Quote:
So either the Hydra is a massively high level monster compared to the dungeon, which is not normal especially the game literally lock you inside of the boss room. Or, the dungeon itself is high level, and Chrom and Iz were bunch of idiots for recommending that based on Maple's profile, while the game doesn't even prevent you to enter the dungeon due to level/stats/gear restrictrions.
Chrome and Iz recommending the dungeon or the potions is entirely an anime thing, but the former is closer to the truth.

Quote:
In a MMO with instanced dungeons, there is no way in hell the game would lock your party to that kind of trap, since it would be unfair for the players and would impose a penalty that cannot be avoided the first time you venture there.
Really? Maybe this is why this game is popular - it doesn't treat its players like babies that have to be protected from themselves. I mean, what can really happen here. Except for Victim #1, who will no doubt relate his experience, all other victims are because they don't read the bulletin boards for intelligence before attacking dungeons. And what's the penalty? One death on the counter? A little penalty gold? Big deal. Are you telling me that in the real world, MMO players were such whiners they bitched and cried after such experiences the devs now hold everyone's hands?
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Old 2020-01-17, 01:54   Link #145
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Random Wanderer View Post
Even before that: she stood there letting the bunny attack her for a solid hour all while doing nothing. She didn't fall asleep then, she just wasn't doing anything. I think there are very few players who could do that.
Why are you ignoring the other part I wrote? I know for a fact there are plenty of players capable of doing that.
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Old 2020-01-17, 02:10   Link #146
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Did they say that? Well, first, that's an anime-adaptation artifact. Second, at least it's not fradulent advertisement because you can just about tank a rabbit if you dump everything into VIT - the advertisement makes no guarantees the no-damage will be in all situations. I guess the adaptors were trying to take into account the fact that shield users were a bit thin to the ground and were pushing it a little bit.
It isn't about "advertisment". It is about implementation and premise of the game. If it is possible to do that with trash mob, then it means it should be doable with end game content, provided you invest everything in VIT (since damage formula should not be modified over time, unless you want a death wish with your userbase). As such, my statement is valid: the devs implemented that game mechanic on the onset, not by accident. Damage immunity by sheer stats investment is something that was deliberately implemented in the game, as such, it stands to reason it should have been tested so it isn't possible to do that against equal or higher level of monsters/players to prevent cheese strat.
Quote:
It can be activated only 5 times. The only flaw with that thinking was that gross eater was an always active skill, so Maple can have it always on.
Which is absolutely stupid by game design, and you know that. It is basically a skill that has a permanent death touch regardless how you use it, and the fact it wasn't even tested on an item, even though skill slotting is integral part of the game design, makes it even more ridiculous on paper and on practice.
But even if it is supposed to have limited use, it still act as an instant kill that bypass enemy's defense and level difference. That doesn't make any sense in a multiplayer game, let alone an MMO.
Quote:
Chrome and Iz recommending the dungeon or the potions is entirely an anime thing, but the former is closer to the truth.
Then it confirms the author didn't do their homework and went with very old game /D&D cliche when it comes to dungeon design.
Quote:
Really? Maybe this is why this game is popular - it doesn't treat its players like babies that have to be protected from themselves. I mean, what can really happen here. Except for Victim #1, who will no doubt relate his experience, all other victims are because they don't read the bulletin boards for intelligence before attacking dungeons. And what's the penalty? One death on the counter? A little penalty gold? Big deal. Are you telling me that in the real world, MMO players were such whiners they bitched and cried after such experiences the devs now hold everyone's hands?
Waste of time, potentially exp and/or gear/treasure penalty for the more hardcore games. The game doesn't have to tell you what to do for X or Y content. But it is fair to expect the dungeon to actually feature content that won't spell immediate wipe if players have at least a brain. That's calling sensible game design. It isn't a D&D scenario where you can randomly dies because of natural 20 for the trap and whatnot.
It isn't really a problem in a normal game because you can reload your save state, although it won't prevent any waste of time. But in a MMO, where time is premium (esp for subscription based MMO) and a party involves more than a player, it just doesn't make sense to deliberately lock player in an impossible situation like that. Ever.
That's not "trying not to treat players like babies". More like "adding unreasonable high level content that is not supposed to be there for shit and giggles". If you think it is natural to have such content in an instanced dungeon, then you really have no MMORPG experience whatsoever, because that's definitely a big fat NG. Difficult content can be done based on mechanics, number of mobs, placement etc. But sheer difficulty based on stats alone is something that is not regarded kindly, because it is artificial and demonstrates the devs don't know their own game. A remotely IRL example of that is FFXIV A3S when it was released: that nearly killed the raid scene and by definition XIV's end game because SE overtuned the boss to the point it was virtually not possible to clear that encounter with currently available gear.
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Old 2020-01-17, 02:12   Link #147
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Which is why it doesn't really make sense in the context of the story.
For one, the Hydra was in a dungeon that was recommended by Chrom and Iz. They knew she was a complete newbie. Even if they expect her to be carried by other players, she IS THE TANK. Not only she is supposed to hold mobs at bay for the party, but the dungeon is all about poison to boot. As such, it doesn't make sense for the Hydra to be there, unless Chrom and Iz suggested that dungeon for the lulz.
I agree with almost everything you've been argued so far but I think there isn't a problem with this particular point. If Maple was just seen as a regular newbie you'd be absolutely right, but by this point Chrome and several people in the game already knew she had absurdly high defense.

The message from the board scrolled very fast but people were commenting on how they saw her character getting attacked repeatedly by several monsters without getting damage. Yeah perhaps they were low level monsters but they were a lot and another player commented that he tried to replicate that and he "melted instantly".

I think that Chrome was putting Maple to the test there, he knew that a regular character of her level couldn't possibly tank that Hydra, but he also knew she had no regular character.

That being said, he still knew she was a newbie, so it was quite convenient storywise that he simply forgot to tell her she needed a party, moreover he had interest in recommending her some of his friends, since he wanted to observe her. If he had told her that, she would have probably obediently looked for a party.


At any rate I don't think it should even be argued that the Hydra was an appropriate boss for the dungeon in question.
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Old 2020-01-17, 02:33   Link #148
Klashikari
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I'm not even sure if Chrome ever had the intent to test her considering it was Iz who suggested it right from the bat (and it wasn't really suggested she knew Maple's peculiar build), although she did mention mobs there were a bit strong.
Still, it would be kind of weird for them to suggest that when it is a dungeon about poison, which is supposed to bypass defense if you don't have poison immunity, which is something that isn't baseline to every tank as far as we know.

That said, the Hydra point is hardly the most baffling part, so it can be set aside, contrary to the whole immunity and skill system that are plainly outlandish in term of game design.
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Old 2020-01-17, 03:16   Link #149
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
it should have been tested so it isn't possible to do that against equal or higher level of monsters/players to prevent cheese strat.
It has been tested. The bunny (clearly weak even for a beginning monster) was supposed to be the limit.

Quote:
It is basically a skill that has a permanent death touch regardless how you use it, and the fact it wasn't even tested on an item, even though skill slotting is integral part of the game design, makes it even more ridiculous on paper and on practice.
But even if it is supposed to have limited use, it still act as an instant kill that bypass enemy's defense and level difference. That doesn't make any sense in a multiplayer game, let alone an MMO.
MMOs can't have instant death skills anymore?

Quote:
Waste of time, potentially exp and/or gear/treasure penalty for the more hardcore games. The game doesn't have to tell you what to do for X or Y content. But it is fair to expect the dungeon to actually feature content that won't spell immediate wipe if players have at least a brain.
Well, that might be how a MMO player rationalizes things. From the viewpoint of an outsider, it sounds extremely wussy. The MMORPG is basically as close as we can get to actually living in an isekai adventure world. But the world is not allowed to actually have surprises?

And monsters can't be just straight up strong, but have to somehow sneak their way into being strong without being strong? Really? Otherwise it is artificial? We are in an adventure world but things can't actually be strong?

And what waste of time? If they get wiped out on the first breath, they lose 5 seconds. If they fight the thing for an hour before realizing it has somehow been very cleverly set up so it is actually unbeatable, they lose an hour.

The mentality of the MMO player might just be unfathmoable.
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Old 2020-01-17, 04:13   Link #150
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
It has been tested. The bunny (clearly weak even for a beginning monster) was supposed to be the limit.
Then it is extremely poor limitation, because the subsequent mobs Maple encountered couldn't put a dent on her, except that insect with its poison. If the starting area is enough to validate such feature, then the Q&A process was abysmal so to speak. As far as it goes, the "damage immunity based on stats difference" is universally applied in NWO.
Quote:
MMOs can't have instant death skills anymore?
I never heard of MMORPG allowing instant death skills usable on higher level monsters, let alone players. That kind of stuff is not supposed to be readily available for balance sake.
Quote:
Well, that might be how a MMO player rationalizes things. From the viewpoint of an outsider, it sounds extremely wussy. The MMORPG is basically as close as we can get to actually living in an isekai adventure world. But the world is not allowed to actually have surprises?
Because MMO don't work the same as regular game. A regular RPG has its own set of limitation and doesn't really require that much since it involves only 1 player for the vast majority of the time and the scope of such kind of exploit are mostly bugs or combination of skills that could only be possible VERY LATE game, not something you get from the get go.

Surprise like that are inherently not welcomed for the reasons I mentioned above. This is especially true for games where you lose your gear upon death, which is, surprise surprise, not fun if you unreasonably put high level monsters in a regular dungeon for the lulz. There is no reload save state and whatnot in a MMO, so devs have to be mindful when it comes to challenge. If it is meant to be destroy any party without any way to deal with conventional means for that given level range, then it is bad game design. it has nothing to do with "wussy" or whatnot.
Quote:
And monsters can't be just straight up strong, but have to somehow sneak their way into being strong without being strong? Really? Otherwise it is artificial? We are in an adventure world but things can't actually be strong?
You didn't understand what I said. I said it is straight up bad design to have monsters that unilaterally overpower player characters. If tactics allow a party to defeat a strong boss, then it is fine. But that's not exactly the case for the Hydra considering its instant nukes abilities while the game itself prevent you to do any tactical retreat whatsoever.
Very high level monsters are extremely unlikely in a dungeon because MMO tend to impose very strict advantages on players and monsters based on their levels. In most cases, a difference of 5-10 levels completely nullify any possible strategy because that level difference would be a huge accuracy penalty to the lower leveled party.
Quote:
And what waste of time? If they get wiped out on the first breath, they lose 5 seconds. If they fight the thing for an hour before realizing it has somehow been very cleverly set up so it is actually unbeatable, they lose an hour.
5 seconds? Sure if it is like FFXIV where you respawn immeditely at the boss chamber, that's little to no issue. But considering episode 2, NWO is akin to more old fashioned MMO (like D2) where you respawn at the last town you were in prior your death. Depending of your location, it could be a very long trek, moreso if you have lost part of your equipment because of the death penalty.
Quote:
The mentality of the MMO player might just be unfathmoable.
That's not even an issue with the mentality, but the implementation and the environment you get with a MMO. It isn't as simple as a RPG where you can have a very linear game progression and design. You have potential sandbox features as well as dealing with balance that has to be thorough for multiplayer purpose accross several level ranges.
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Old 2020-01-17, 05:11   Link #151
Keila
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I'm pretty sure we could debate game design until the end of time, but (based on what the anime has displayed) is the game design in such a state that you'd immediately drop the game/refuse to play it after discovering the mechanics as being what they are?


The narrative flow in the 1st 2 Eps (from someone with no knowledge of the source material) have seemingly given us a good understanding of how players interact (and develop their characters) in the game world, the motivations (and logic) behind their choices as well as their future goals/what they're aiming for.


The game mechanics (and design) seems to offer a lot of personal freedom / customisation, which is exactly what you'd want in the sort of game it is representing. At the very least it doesn't seem insanely hardcore or pay-to-win like other games (real world, or otherwise, Overlord's mmo for example).


As a gamer, personally I'm still totally cool with all the gameplay design/decisions that have been displayed, even in a PvP environment. I'd have no issue sinking countless hours into such a game.
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Old 2020-01-17, 05:25   Link #152
Klashikari
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I'd immediately quit the game based on what we were shown (especially after the first PVP event), unless the dev team is competent enough to announce balance and nerfs ASAP. But even then, I'd be extremely wary of the dev team for allowing that kind of stuff to be possible to begin with. Since the great shield class was advertized as being able to nullify damage, then it makes sense that it will happen to higher level content at some point, which begs the question how they can undo their own weird conception later on without rendering the class useless either.
Snowflake build is something that should never left unchecked in a MMO as it will affect the meta and community at large sooner or later, especially if that build allows any player to cheese current/high end strat without any player skill required. The presence of that build doesn't mean players will be forced to use it, but a sizable number of players will naturally gravitate around that build to reap the benefits of it, guaranteed. That's the reason why I can't fathom unilateral passive damage negation, but have no problem with Sally's evasion tanking (something that could be done in games like PSO2 through just dodging or just guarding) because it is something that is based on player skill and can be countered by its own nature (increase number of hits, increase of projectile/attack speed, etc).

But by having passive damage negation, the game design allows things that trivialize a lot of content without much afterthought.
Sure, the skill system looks interesting and allows build freedom, but as mentioned before, that freedom should come at a cost for the more powerful skills, and things like Maple's eater shouldn't be able to instant nuke a player, let alone higher level ones.
If it is left unchecked, then sooner or later, more players will copy that build, and it will lead to a bland meta where people will just camp their position and wait for other players to be within the item reach for eater instant nuke.
That's why NWO looks like some dream game of a casual player, but arguably not something you would expect from a dev, simply because it would be an absolute nightmare to code and to fix/balance over time. And contrary to non dev beliefs, patches are not really the favored solution, because depending of the code architecture, you may have to untangle a lot of crap for the desired result, which may lead to more bugs that will not be visible until after a while.
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Old 2020-01-17, 05:35   Link #153
Spica
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The game is basically a first person action rpg + sandbox mmo. Not to mention a full dive VR.
The context and game play style are completely different already.

Comparing that to current day mainstream ones is rather weird.

Also Episode 3 PV and images.

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Old 2020-01-17, 05:51   Link #154
Klashikari
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Originally Posted by Spica View Post
The game is basically a first person action rpg + sandbox mmo. Not to mention a full dive VR.
The context and game play style are completely different already.

Comparing that to current day main stream ones is rather weird.
Again, genre has NOTHING to do with the current issues at hand.
Let's take a FPS example then: let's say you play Quake 3 and you are granted the gauntlet (which is the instant nuke weapon of the game). Now, let's add further twists 1) you have an armor that nullify any damage source that isn't affected by quad damage, and even under QD, you take minimal damage 2) you have been granted a subweapon that allows mass movement impairement agaisnt your targets 3) no one else can get the gauntlet except under extremely bizarre and undocumented method.
I'm pretty sure that people would be extremely pissed off in such circumstances, even if it isn't a RPG.

When you are playing a multiplayer game involving some kind of competition (be it rewards or actual PVP), the game must offer a certain sense of balance so every player has the same odds against each other within the game scope (skill is something that cannot be "balanced" through games, hence why it is fair for more skilled players to pown noobs, period). That's the reason why the genre argument is irrelevant in the current discussion: it could be a RTS, FPS, RPG, or something akin to Minecraft, it doesn't matter. Any proper game design shouldn't keep that kind of build unchecked, unless it is heavily promoted by the dev themselves under different features (and thus other type of "OP" build accessible to other people, balancing against the super defensive one). That's the very reason why that "instant kill" things are -NOT- the norm in multiplayer game, unless that feature is very hard to pull off or have very specific conditions that are known by every players (e.g. Quake 3 gauntlet).

I could go on with a lot of other things, but I'm sure you caught my drift: balance isn't something that a dev would ignore when designing a multiplayer game, unless they want their game to fall apart very quickly. It doesn't matter what type of game you are playing, since it is a matter involving fairness between players, not the game nature per se.
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Old 2020-01-17, 06:01   Link #155
Spica
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Just play something like EVE online if you lots think this is strange.
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Old 2020-01-17, 07:05   Link #156
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Since the great shield class was advertized as being able to nullify damage, then it makes sense that it will happen to higher level content at some point, which begs the question how they can undo their own weird conception later on without rendering the class useless either.
Now that I'm home, I rechecked the relevant section. Yes, it said that. Yes, it is an anime only thing. However, even if it said that, I don't know about you but I won't interpret it as any more than actually being able to do that under extremely restricted conditions rather than it "being able to nullify damage" in a serious sense.

Quote:
If it is left unchecked, then sooner or later, more players will copy that build, and it will lead to a bland meta where people will just camp their position and wait for other players to be within the item reach for eater instant nuke.
It's not that easy. First, you have come up out of nowhere the idea to eat bugs. Then you have to steel yourself to eat those of the right type (which is substantially harder than just selecting "Eat bugs" on a menu), and you aren't sure exactly how many you have to eat. At that point, you get it in your mouth, which is not that useful unless you will try to bite other people and hope they don't whack you first. You want it on your shield or other object with suitably large surface, so you have to go out and kill boss monsters by yourself on the first try so you can get one of those Unique-series equipment packs and hope the game is impressed enough with what you did (and that you are of the correct build type) that you get one that happens to have a skill slot on it rather than a fixed skill of its own. Oh, and then they would have to remember to not put another skill (say one that takes a massive load of MP) into the weapon. So though they might admire Maple, most people would have to settle for another idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
I'm pretty sure that people would be extremely pissed off in such circumstances, even if it isn't a RPG.
There are two basic ways to react to such an instance. Complain "Devs! OP! Nerf plz" or think maybe you can get another one of your own if you are more adventurous. Fortunately for the game, it seems most players of NWO are of the latter personality type.

Look, I know the kind of people you are talking about. I am alpha-testing a certain single-player battleship game, and people are complaining. Why? The most relevant reason to the discussion here is because the enemy battleships dared to retreat. Worse, they are retreating at the right time (early enough they can do a useful fighting retreat), so they are now quite hard to catch. The response? "Devs! Nerf their ability to retreat."

As for me, I think the correct response is to build a faster battleship next time, and recognize when you can safely press more accurately so the enemy can be gunned down within the time limit. Not whine at the AI doing the right thing.

It also helps that there are other people like Payne with their own OP builds, so what people are seeing is that while it is rare, it is possible. NWO players are "Americans", all thinking they can become the President (or at least thinking they shouldn't be stopping the brave from becoming presidents), rather than Japanese salarymen who want a strict seniority system and other rules for "balance" even if it means killing their chance to really strike it rich.
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Old 2020-01-17, 07:47   Link #157
The Green One
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Alright I'm seeing walls of text that are basically boiling down to you guys saying the same points at each other over and over again. It doesn't look like you're going to agree with each other anytime soon. Maybe it might be best to let things drop at this point? I don't see anyone's minds being changed anytime soon.
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Old 2020-01-17, 08:52   Link #158
Kismet-chan
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^ Agreed. This series is way too simpleminded in its intent and execution to warrant a discussion this damned involved, lmao.
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Old 2020-01-17, 09:47   Link #159
Metaneo
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I would be more than happy to concede to the arguments against this show if said detractors could show me their resume proving they have experience in developing/balancing VRMMOs.
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Old 2020-01-17, 09:55   Link #160
Liddo-kun
is this so?
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
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I don't even understand anymore what people are trying to detract from the show, with all the walls of text piled in heaps of internet rage. It's just better to ignore and move on. Well, critics can say what they want and it does not decrease my enjoyment of the show even by 1%. This is the kind of anime that I would watch and post about, even if I'm the only one posting in it's thread. Because reminds me so much of the fun days playing Ragnarok Online years ago.

Spoiler for group pic:
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