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Old 2020-03-04, 12:58   Link #301
Anh_Minh
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He was quite curious about the Wakumusubi. I wonder if he'd been briefed on it (and the rest of the Well system) and just hadn't had an actual sample before.
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Old 2020-03-04, 16:43   Link #302
GDB
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Thought it over this morning, and I'm tossing out my "only follow one detective at a time" idea. New thought process:

1) John Walker's been in the well the whole time (at least, the whole time they've been diving)
1a) For some reason, they couldn't connect at the beginning (not important, but could be Anaido's special characteristic or John Walker's doing or because there were 2 divers)
2) John Walker confirmed with Anaido that this was the well they'd be enacting his plan.
3) It was at this point that he had Anaido remove Kaeru's clue, and gave him Narihisago's photo.
4) JW walked towards the cockpit, leaving his footprints behind.
5) Anaido played dumb, but also moved to get Sakaido away from Kaeru as quickly as possible and towards the cockpit.
6) The rest is as we've seen

For point 3, the reasoning he was given the photo is twofold. First, there are no footprints to indicate he actually moved while counting the 10 minutes. This lines up with the team being shocked he had "investigated" the body (they shouldn't be surprised if he did something if they just didn't have eyes on him). Second, the body is undisturbed from when they first found it. There'd be no reason to return the body to how it was if you pulled it out, and it'd be potential suicide to go through it while in the quicksand.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
He was quite curious about the Wakumusubi. I wonder if he'd been briefed on it (and the rest of the Well system) and just hadn't had an actual sample before.
I assume he hadn't been brought in for this plan until after he was arrested. In fact, I'd even consider that he wasn't brought in for the plan until after JW realized that "Anaido" remained Fukuda. We didn't see his first 60 or 70 attempts at diving, so we don't know how long he lasted. It's possible he never even saw Kaeru until after being briefed by JW and proving he'd be useful.

The only way Fukuda wouldn't know who JW is in the real world is if Narihisago's particles were obtained before Fukuda was arrested, or during the period when he was diving while Narihisago was in solitary. Otherwise I do not believe there was any period of time when Narihisago wasn't there while Fukuda also was not there.

Odds are it happened prior to the gravedigger conclusion too, otherwise what's-her-face would have seen him too.
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Old 2020-03-08, 11:55   Link #303
Irenesharda
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An interesting episode as we come to the climax.

So, as we all knew, the chief was John Walker. However, seeing the way they revealed it this episode, I think the fact that we the audience already knew that, was the point. We were supposed to already know this. It's why they didn't make a big deal about the reveal.

They just continued on and we now have a bigger issue involving Kiki and what's going to happen to our trio of killer detectives.

So we get a sort of clearer picture when it comes to Anaido/Fukada. So, really, he wasn't in on all this with John Walker, but Walker was manipulating him. He wanted Fukada dead and Fukada wanted to die so he played along even though he knew he was being manipulated. It turns out that Fukada wasn't dumb, but instead purposefully kept dying in the well because every time he went in, his OCD Arithmomania would come back and drive him crazy.
However, he had no way out in Sakaido's well since there was no lightning, so he wanted Sakaido to kill him.

I actually totally forgot that they clued us into Fukada's arithmomania several times, with his hand gestures and back in the first couple of episodes, the walls of his room were covered in numbers.

Our three detectives did well, Handomachi taking over all of Narihisago's earlier research and notes to figure out John Walker's signature. And then after interviewing Fukada, she was able put all the missing pieces together.

Although, I have to say that that makes the well staff morons, if they didn't think to interview and ask Fukada about John Walker before now. They probably could have figured this out a lot sooner.

So, the storm really didn't amount to much as Sakaido was able to figure out to use the clue of Kaeru as a focal point to get the staff to see them and pull them out. We also see how the particles were planted using one of Narihisago's pictures.
But now the Chief has them all trapped and a cybernetic? Kiki, who has been the center of the facility all this time.
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Old 2020-03-08, 12:36   Link #304
Blueknight78
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Ok let me see if i get it right, the reason the boss did it all, he basically wanted a "job", he used kiki to create "serial killers", to form that police and keep exploring "mind travels" more and more, and create that "endless loop", where he could just keep watching everything happens, his "job" was create "villians" for his own sci-fi , mystery world, playing like "god". or something like that.

Really interesting episode.
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Old 2020-03-08, 12:49   Link #305
Kanon
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I really like the reason Fukuda did what he did. It also neatly explained why he kept dying so fast in the Wells even though he has a high IQ. It wasn't that he had no survival instinct, but rather that his Arithmomania coming back due to his lack of hole inside Wells also brought back his suicidal pulsions. He couldn't tell the team about it because they probably wouldn't care about the mental health of a serial killer and would see him being able to remember his identity and more importantly previous experiences inside Wells as an asset, possibly forcing him to dive even more.

Also really enjoyed how solving the mystery of John Walker required contributions from the three detectives, even if the Fukuda that helped Hondomachi wasn't really Fukuda. It's disappointing his identity was obvious, but heh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenesharda View Post
Although, I have to say that that makes the well staff morons, if they didn't think to interview and ask Fukada about John Walker before now. They probably could have figured this out a lot sooner.
I don't think Fukuda could remember his dreams about John Walker and Kaeru in the real world. Narihisago was also manipulated by him and he didn't remember ever seeing him. I think it's only because Kiki's Well is special that the people living inside it could remember their dreams. If that's true however, then why did the Chief want Fukuda dead?

The chief didn't seem all that bothered to have been found out either.
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Old 2020-03-08, 13:42   Link #306
4th Dimension
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Well if Chief wanted Narisago PERMANENTLY out of the picture Fukuda would be the ideal triggerman, but after he has pulled the trigger he doesn't want him to stay in there since he is the ONLY ONE who could have lead Narisago to the one place they can be recovered from or helped him find Hondoumachi.

Also he might want him dead because he knows times and places he met JW. It even makes sense that they never tried to place Narisago elsewhere despite him preying on all the serial killers. He is a useful tool to DISPOSE OF EVIDENCE (serial killers) that could lead back to him.
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Old 2020-03-08, 15:14   Link #307
Shadow5YA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
I don't think Fukuda could remember his dreams about John Walker and Kaeru in the real world. Narihisago was also manipulated by him and he didn't remember ever seeing him. I think it's only because Kiki's Well is special that the people living inside it could remember their dreams. If that's true however, then why did the Chief want Fukuda dead?

The chief didn't seem all that bothered to have been found out either.
Alternatively, it's more that they probably trusted the Chief enough (or thought he was inconsequential) that they never considered him a possible suspect until now.
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Old 2020-03-08, 16:14   Link #308
Wandering Soul
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The Chief is finally revealed to be John Walker. It wasn't a surprising twist, but it did make the cast work for it by having all 3 brilliant detectives with together.

I also really like the reveal of why Anaido kept in dying. It wasn't him being a terrible brilliant detective, but he was in a situation that triggered his suicidal tendencies.
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Old 2020-03-08, 19:14   Link #309
Kanon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4th Dimension View Post
Well if Chief wanted Narisago PERMANENTLY out of the picture Fukuda would be the ideal triggerman, but after he has pulled the trigger he doesn't want him to stay in there since he is the ONLY ONE who could have lead Narisago to the one place they can be recovered from or helped him find Hondoumachi.

Also he might want him dead because he knows times and places he met JW. It even makes sense that they never tried to place Narisago elsewhere despite him preying on all the serial killers. He is a useful tool to DISPOSE OF EVIDENCE (serial killers) that could lead back to him.
But Narihisago himself deduced that the target was never him, it was always Fukuda that John Walker wanted out of the picture. No reason to doubt this deduction.

And as I said, I don't think Fukuda can remember his dreams in real life.
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Old 2020-03-08, 22:10   Link #310
GDB
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I gotta say... this episode was a let down. It wasn't a bad episode in the slightest, but last episode built up SOOOOO much hype and then... nothing. The Well-Storm basically meant nothing in the end other than a convenient way to extend their time to rescue Hondomachi.

The only thing a Well-Storm might do is allow one's brain to die for real while in a well. Otherwise I'm not sure what Narihisago killing Fukuda in the well would accomplish.
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Old 2020-03-09, 00:10   Link #311
Kismet-chan
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Getting the full picture behind Fukuda and how everyone arrived at their various conclusions was all handled fairly well and I found it to be a compelling presentation. Also the various investigators' reactions to Togo outing herself to sleeping with Momoki were priceless. All of that I enjoyed.

But the chief being John Walker is the absolute lamest shit. I was telling the buddy of mine I'm watching this with for WEEKS that it better not be fucking him. And that little close-up of John Walker in one of the previous episodes where you could see this stache/stupid hairstyle had been something I was desperately hoping was a red herring... But no. They went and did exactly what I was wishing they wouldn't. Damn it, lmao.

These last two episode better blow my mind or I will be so pissed.
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Old 2020-03-09, 02:19   Link #312
Blueknight78
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Well to be fair i feel which the "real big mystery of this serie was without any doubts, who the f** is that "kaeru-chan(kiki) which appear dead in every episode????, i really feel that is really the big deal of this serie, and as soon they revealed it everything else was just "according to the plans".
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Old 2020-03-09, 02:49   Link #313
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenesharda View Post
So, the storm really didn't amount to much as Sakaido was able to figure out to use the clue of Kaeru as a focal point to get the staff to see them and pull them out. We also see how the particles were planted using one of Narihisago's pictures.
But now the Chief has them all trapped and a cybernetic? Kiki, who has been the center of the facility all this time.
I think it's just a suit with electrodes to link her to the system.
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Old 2020-03-09, 07:40   Link #314
Kanon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
The only thing a Well-Storm might do is allow one's brain to die for real while in a well. Otherwise I'm not sure what Narihisago killing Fukuda in the well would accomplish.
If a pilot isn't extracted from a Well almost as soon as he dies in it, then he dies in real life. The storm made extraction impossible (except near Kaeru) so Fukuda would have died.
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Old 2020-03-09, 07:54   Link #315
frodonk
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
I gotta say... this episode was a let down. It wasn't a bad episode in the slightest, but last episode built up SOOOOO much hype and then... nothing. The Well-Storm basically meant nothing in the end other than a convenient way to extend their time to rescue Hondomachi.
You'd think by the way they described the storm before that it was something more dramatic, like how the same person who entered his own well wouldn't be able to think and get out due to some recursive brain inside his own brain thing.

This episode made it appear that 3 brilliant detectives working together was needed for them to get out, but not really, sakaido's surprisingly calm despite learning where he was, and could've gotten out on his own because he knew going back to kaeru was the way to get out.

He only needed the 2 other detectives for other stuff, like digging hondomachi out and continuing the investigation while inside the well inside the well.

Quote:
The only thing a Well-Storm might do is allow one's brain to die for real while in a well. Otherwise I'm not sure what Narihisago killing Fukuda in the well would accomplish.
fukuda getting killed at that moment would probably mean his brain activity will shut off and they wouldn't be able to extract him because "time wasn't synchronized", so yeah, since the outside people can't react to what's happening due to the storm they can't yank fukuda out of the simulation.
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Old 2020-03-09, 08:36   Link #316
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
I gotta say... this episode was a let down. It wasn't a bad episode in the slightest, but last episode built up SOOOOO much hype and then... nothing. The Well-Storm basically meant nothing in the end other than a convenient way to extend their time to rescue Hondomachi.

The only thing a Well-Storm might do is allow one's brain to die for real while in a well. Otherwise I'm not sure what Narihisago killing Fukuda in the well would accomplish.
I must agree with this, I expected more than this for the long foreshadowed "entering your own well" and while I never completely excluded it, I really hoped John Walker wasn't the guy that conspicuously resembled it in appearance.

It's not like this was a bad episode, but it wasn't anything exciting either, and after the previous two awesome episodes, the bar was set quite high.

Now let's up the anime will do a good job at addressing all the remaining loose ends.
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Old 2020-03-09, 18:11   Link #317
GDB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
If a pilot isn't extracted from a Well almost as soon as he dies in it, then he dies in real life. The storm made extraction impossible (except near Kaeru) so Fukuda would have died.
Is that how it works? I feel like they should've explained that better. Looking back, there are hints that it works that way, but for something so important to the episode they should've gone a bit more in-depth with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frodonk View Post
This episode made it appear that 3 brilliant detectives working together was needed for them to get out, but not really, sakaido's surprisingly calm despite learning where he was, and could've gotten out on his own because he knew going back to kaeru was the way to get out.

He only needed the 2 other detectives for other stuff, like digging hondomachi out and continuing the investigation while inside the well inside the well.
Exactly. All he had to do was to go Kaeru and he was fine. This well-storm meant nothing. And apparently it means nothing to remember yourself in a well if you aren't that well's owner, so why is there an amnesia setting again?
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Old 2020-03-09, 19:22   Link #318
Dextro
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I know that the identity of John Walker (red label?) was totally predicable for quite a while now but I'm honestly happy to see that for once a mystery show is actually dropping hints along the way and following its own built up internal logic instead of just throwing random plot twists at the viewer.

What I want to say is: thankfully this show looks to be written properly unlike what happened to Babylon last season
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Old 2020-03-09, 19:41   Link #319
Kanon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Is that how it works? I feel like they should've explained that better. Looking back, there are hints that it works that way, but for something so important to the episode they should've gone a bit more in-depth with it.



Exactly. All he had to do was to go Kaeru and he was fine. This well-storm meant nothing. And apparently it means nothing to remember yourself in a well if you aren't that well's owner, so why is there an amnesia setting again?
Yes, that's how it works. It's true that it hasn't been explained all that well, but we often saw Narihisago waking up after getting killed and then being reinjected immediately, so we could surmise it.

The reason for the amnesia setting might be a lie. The Chief may have simply wanted to make the detectives' jobs harder and more entertaining. If they could clearly remember their previous times inside a Well, it would make exploring them and solving the mysteries a lot easier.
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Old 2020-03-09, 20:22   Link #320
GDB
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I figured the death itself caused the ejection the entire time, to be honest.
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