Kill La Kill - Episode 13 Discussion / Poll

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Solace

Her biggest "crime" has been the enforcement of a rigid class system in the school and surrounding area based on performance through the star uniform system.

You don't see a contradiction here? A rigid class system (keeping the elites in power and on top, no matter what) and meritocracy (success/status based on performance) seem somewhat mutually exclusive to me.

One of the things I took from the "Mako's family gets rich" episode is actually the considerable degree of upward mobility that exists in the society of this show. If you have talent, and if you apply that talent through hard work and dedication, you can go very high in this system.

That being said, I do think that episode was critical of the personal compromises that often are made when people "shoot for the top" and dedicate everything to gaining/maintaining fame and fortune.

Still, in a truly rigid class system, "Old Rich" (families that have been wealthy for a long time) would have held the "New Rich" of Mako's family with a certain degree of disdain. But we didn't see that at all in the "Mako's family gets rich" episode. Satsuki herself could be considered a representative of "Old Rich" given the wealth and success of her parents, and she showed Mako considerable respect after Mako went high.

Also, I think that Mako has been treated with a certain lasting respect since she reached those heights. Consider how the Elite Four have talked with her in recent episodes. I don't get any vibe of "Who the hell do you think you are, you no-star commoner? You have no business talking with the likes of us!" They carry on pretty normal conversations with Mako, seemingly caring not that much about her no-star commoner status. In fact, I think Gamagoor really likes her.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

You don't see a contradiction here? A rigid class system (keeping the elites in power and on top, no matter what) and meritocracy (success/status based on performance) seem somewhat mutually exclusive to me.

Of course it's a contradiction. It's also how the real world works. As much as Capitalism loves to praise upward mobility through meritocracy the reality is that there is very little upward mobility and meritocracy is rarely rewarded as much as taking advantage of every possible flaw/loophole in the system. The rich get richer, the poor stay poor, and the "middle class" is a short term aberration of a system centuries old.

Do you remember when Sayaka used the term "petty bourgeoisie" in Madoka to describe her living status? The phrase was coined by Marx, as a way to describe the middle class: the small scale capitalists (small business owners) who of themselves were of mostly modest income (compared to the rich) but of higher social and financial status than the working and poor classes.

One of the things I took from the "Mako's family gets rich" episode is actually the considerable degree of upward mobility that exists in the society of this show. If you have talent, and if you apply that talent through hard work and dedication, you can go very high in this system.

What did Mako actually do? It was Ryoko that did all of the work. Ryoko was also the only person in the family who did not embrace the upward mobility.

That being said, I do think that episode was critical of the personal compromises that often are made when people "shoot for the top" and dedicate everything to gaining/maintaining fame and fortune.

There were no compromises. The higher in class they advanced, the more they abandoned each other and indulged in their worst desires. There's an irony in Satsuki comparing lower classes to pigs when Mako's "rich" family lived a life of excess and treated others like dirt.

Still, in a truly rigid class system, "Old Rich" (families that have been wealthy for a long time) would have held the "New Rich" of Mako's family with a certain degree of disdain. But we didn't see that at all in the "Mako's family gets rich" episode. Satsuki herself could be considered a representative of "Old Rich" given the wealth and success of her parents, and she showed Mako considerable respect after Mako went high.

Old money does hold new money in disdain in every class system (including Capitalism). Note that Satsuki and her elite may have more respect for Mako but they do not consider her an equal. When the club closed, Mako lost all of her class advancement including her status in school, where she went back to a no star who wasn't even picked for the rival school battles. And while you could say "well she did reject it, so she deserves to lose it", there's also all of the people Ryoko defeated who suffered the same fate: they were stripped of everything and reduced to the lowest rank.

Except for the elite four, who Ryoko defeated and yet were still allowed to keep their status after their failure. So there's your double standard.

Also, I think that Mako has been treated with a certain lasting respect since she reached those heights. Consider how the Elite Four have talked with her in recent episodes. I don't get any vibe of "Who the hell do you think you are, you no-star commoner? You have no business talking with the likes of us!" They carry on pretty normal conversations with Mako, seemingly caring not that much about her no-star commoner status. In fact, I think Gamagoor really likes her.

I do think their opinion of her has changed somewhat, but they still consider themselves above her. Whatever they may think of her (and Ryoko) personally, they still treat them as lesser people, for the most part.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Solace

What did Mako actually do? It was Ryoko that did all of the work. Ryoko was also the only person in the family who did not embrace the upward mobility.

Mako did lots and lots of paperwork in the early-going. She also arranged all of the fights for Ryoko as though Ryoko was a star boxer and Mako was her manager.

There were no compromises.

For Mako, there was. She had to compromise her friendship with Ryoko. Ryoko turned into more of a money-making tool for Mako than an actual friend. She was obviously putting Ryoko through an absolutely brutal fight schedule, which is not what you'd expect a friend to do. But that's what Mako did to gain wealth as quickly as possible.

And while you could say "well she did reject it, so she deserves to lose it", there's also all of the people Ryoko defeated who suffered the same fate: they were stripped of everything and reduced to the lowest rank.

Except for the elite four, who Ryoko defeated and yet were still allowed to keep their status after their failure. So there's your double standard.

It is something of a double standard, but I think its based on a character judgement on Satsuki's part. Satsuki's school had been churning out a lot of one, two, and three-star uniforms, and perhaps Satsuki felt that this had resulted in more people having these uniforms than what should be the case. I get the impression that she wanted Ryoko to sort of take care of these excesses for her, and filter out some people that Satsuki perhaps felt weren't deserving of the uniforms they had gained.

Whereas the Elite Four have proven to be of high character and/or very useful to Satsuki. One loss to Ryoko doesn't change that.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Solace

There were no compromises. The higher in class they advanced, the more they abandoned each other and indulged in their worst desires. There's an irony in Satsuki comparing lower classes to pigs when Mako's "rich" family lived a life of excess and treated others like dirt.

I don't think Satsuki was comparing the lower classes to pigs. She was doing that for basically everybody who submitted to Satsuki's system, i.e. those who traded personal integrity and bonds for the material wealth and power promised by (meritorious) loyalty to Satsuki. Sure, the poverty and misery of the lower classes might provide some basis for including them in Satsuki's metaphor, but I thought it was pretty explicit that Satsuki's criticism was aimed more at the people who showed blind loyalty to her system out of greed and self-interest (i.e. ironically, the more 'successful' ones).

The issue with Satsuki's (really a mirror of Revocs') system in practice isn't really being a meritocracy, or a lack of upward mobility. It's the motivating factor Revocs/Satsuki's system provides as a reward for said 'merit' (i.e. material wealth). Satsuki's Elite Four are treated 'better' (rather, with more trust) than Satsuki's other underlings because they have an underlying loyalty to Satsuki herself, rather than her system. Satsuki has likely gone out of her way to instill that loyalty and cultivate their abilities precisely so that they could resist Revocs' system.

I figure 'class mobility' within the one star and two star classes really is pretty fluid under Satsuki's system. It's the three star rank which is pretty much unreachable under Satsuki, but it seems like that's basically a consequence of Satsuki herself, not her system. However, given what we saw in Mako's episode, even 2 star status is enough to achieve a ridiculous degree of material wealth. I'd say the issue is that Satsuki's/Revocs' system assumes and encourages blind self-interest and materialism, not so much that it is (barring positions at the absolute top, such as Ragyou/Satsuki) unfair.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Mako did lots and lots of paperwork in the early-going. She also arranged all of the fights for Ryoko as though Ryoko was a star boxer and Mako was her manager.

Won't argue that. On the other hand, people were lining up to take her on anyway, so Ryoko didn't exactly need help with that. The whole idea was to be official. Mako did manage that, but you could also argue that she wasn't exactly being fair with the workload considering at one point she made Ryoko take on an entire gym full of combatants.

At some point "we" turned into "I", is the point.

For Mako, there was. She had to compromise her friendship with Ryoko. Ryoko turned into more of a money-making tool for Mako than an actual friend. She was obviously putting Ryoko through an absolutely brutal fight schedule, which is not what you'd expect a friend to do. But that's what Mako did to gain wealth as quickly as possible.

That's not a compromise, that's a sacrifice.

It is something of a double standard, but I think its based on a character judgement on Satsuki's part. Satsuki's school had been churning out a lot of one, two, and three-star uniforms, and perhaps Satsuki felt that this had resulted in more people having these uniforms than what should be the case. I get the impression that she wanted Ryoko to sort of take care of these excesses for her, and filter out some people that Satsuki perhaps felt weren't deserving of the uniforms they had gained.

Whereas the Elite Four have proven to be of high character and/or very useful to Satsuki. One loss to Ryoko doesn't change that.

Right but the Elite Four were hand picked by Satsuki. They were "worthy", everyone else was a stepping stone, and you could argue the Elite Four are as well....just not as disposable (yet). But on the other hand, you could also argue that they are the most devoted, willing to do anything to stay by her side. It's not every day someone cuts out their eyes, right? They worship her, the rest are simply followers.

It's like any organization: you have the head (Satsuki), the muscle (Elite Four), and the body (the faceless students). I wonder if that's intentional, since the clubs are like this as well. You have the unique club leader, and the identical regular members.

@Sol:

An interesting line of thought. Can't say I don't see where you're coming from, and I agree with it for the most part. But there is a moral argument to be made about the fairness of a system that encourages those things even if they are consequences and not intended functions.

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Solace

It's not every day someone cuts out their eyes, right?

Not that it diminishes your point, but Sanageyama didn't cut out his eyes, he "only" had them sewn shut.

[Eudaimonia]

Oh, how I have missed you, KLK! And what a way to start the second cours: Blitzkrieg á la Kiryuuin style, the first step towards world domination all under the keen observation of her mother who herself has established her own empire with her monopoly on clothing. Right now she's still amused upon following her daughter's aspirations but will that last when she eventually gets dethroned by her own offspring?

Also good to see Trigger following up their clothing analogy to the end.
Once again the concept of shame pops up in regard to clothing, however, this time around it's about clothing as a mean to cover up shame opposed to shame caused by clothing. Ragyou' logic twists clothing as status symbol which has been presented to us until now to one that epitomizes sin and as Satsuki points out depicts a measure to connect the world (in her own favour, of course...). Logically that constitutes a world that is in its entirety hold together by the concept of sin. Going with the biblical original sin metaphor, the interpretation of the usage of clothes as result of humanity's achievment of free will fits awefully well with Satsuki's mindset: Only those who act under their own volition are deemed worthy by her to wear the most prestigious Life-fiber uniforms.


While Nui's disguise really caught me off-guard I'm almost a bit disappointed to see the seemingly new addition to the cast getting discarded so quickly. It would have been really interesting to see upright and idealistic Shinjiro Nagita ( a shout-out to the Japanese student movement during the 1960s?) as the initiator of a new opposing force against the fascistic nature of Honnouji Academy, this time organized by the students themselves.

[SeijiSensei]

I rewatched the entire series recently and was amused by an audio pun in this episode. At about 15:15 Nui, disguised as school editor Nagita, is chased off by the Disciplinary Committee. Her pursuers use the same "Police! Police!" cry that Akai's minions use in Nakashima's Oh! Edo Rocket (around 3:15 in episode one).