2010-12-08, 14:06 | Link #19581 |
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Bear in mind that the time period for this supposed rampage is roughly from about 10pm (when the family conference supposedly starts) to midnight (when Battler talks to Beatrice). That's a very short time to be faking and un-faking, all out of Battler's sight.
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2010-12-08, 14:17 | Link #19582 |
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Join Date: Feb 2008
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I think this is rather obvious to some degree. Jessica and Kyrie feed Battler a lot of rubbish about a witch. In addition, Jessica said too much when she talked about George dying, which she should have no way to know, unless she was informed by someone, since the place where Battler found George's body couldn't be seen from Jessica's bedroom.
If we remember who's the one intending to be seen as a witch, and who probably staged this game, then the reason why Jessica and Kyrie told Battler about a witch becomes apparent, I think. However, the reason why everyone got killed is still something I do not understand. Even if we go by the theory that Yasu killed the rest because Battler failed the test, that wouldn't answer why George got killed beforehand. It also makes me wonder why only George and Kyrie had small holes in their heads, whereas the rest had their heads half destroyed.
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2010-12-08, 14:38 | Link #19583 | |
Magical Cheff
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Last edited by NightWish; 2010-12-08 at 18:40. Reason: Try the currently accepted title, it's considered less offensive. |
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2010-12-08, 14:41 | Link #19584 |
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One other thing:
If the first twilight victims were killed at that time (~10:30), any blood should be long-since dried by the time Battler gets there. If they were still alive when Battler's trial started (~11:45), the blood should probably still be wet when he found them. Is there any mention of Krauss, Nanjo, Shannon, and George were out in the rain, so any blood would quickly be washed away. Kyrie and Jessica were found within a fairly short period of when they were last confirmed alive, so those corpses should be fresh. Gohda & Kumasawa were confirmed dead fairly late, so there's nothing useful about their bodies. Wait - did Kyrie react to anything Battler says during her last call? Her "Don't interrupt me" comment makes it possible her call was recorded and she was already dead.
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2010-12-08, 14:54 | Link #19585 |
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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Hahaha, yeah I noticed that too but she clearly answered one of his questions. At least it looks like it, unless the way they set up the conversation led to Battler only being able to respond in that one way. Like setting it up with Jessica saying that George was dead and later Kyrie asking if the others where dead as well, Battler would logically answer with yes.
I've already said it some pages ago, it was a possibility that it was all a joke and later the killer re-enacted the scenes by making them real. We dont know the actual order of deaths, the witch creates the illusion that they where in the same order as in the fantasy scenes by saying that Kanon was the 9th victim, this is irrelevant since Kanon can probably "die" anywhere and at any time. Its possible that after Battler failed the test Beatrice told him to move to the chapel and started killing people for real. Another thing that got me from the phone scene with Kyrie, did Battler ever tell Maria the content of Kyrie's call? If not, why would Maria know that Kyrie told Battler to believe in a witch? |
2010-12-09, 05:40 | Link #19588 | |
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Beatrice wanted the truth to be discovered and wanted to be acknowledged as a witch at the same time. If it were a traditional mystery:
My opinion is that Ryukishi wanted to create a mystery that could only be solved using this unique rule set (“believing in the witch”, “acknowledging furniture of the witch”, “understanding magic of the witch”, etc.). Should we be searching for a culprit in this non-traditional mystery?
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2010-12-09, 07:30 | Link #19589 |
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Join Date: Dec 2010
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I don't find an issue with the conjecture that the tragedy may be grossly misinterpreted, or with a "benevolent" (at the very least not malevolent) culprit solution. But I think that, at this point, claiming that the crime was not orchestrated by someone is outrageous. If this is the solution, it is an outright betrayal of the reader's trust, which has been so often implied to be a key element to this work, in both enjoying and understanding it. It would be an unprecedented troll. But I suppose this point has already been reiterated plenty enough times.
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2010-12-09, 07:39 | Link #19590 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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The point is that the regardless of the existence of a real culprit there is still a genius mastermind that orchestrated an incredible plan. So you won't be betrayed on that, you'd still have your "culprit" except the culprit never killed or intended to kill anyone. Unless he was aware of the final explosion which in that case you could consider him a "culprit" in a certain way.
Of course in this case the culprit would be simply Yasu.
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2010-12-09, 07:51 | Link #19591 |
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I really...really dislike the whole "its a love story kyuuun *house blows up*" ending. I know that its what the game's been pushing since EP5 but something in my gut is telling me not to trust it.
If I was RK07 and decided to make an actual mystery novel following all of the established detective rules plus the ones that aren't really written but most follow anyway , I would certainly exploit the possible love ending to troll people. Just pop in Dine's 3rd right before the proposed ending and screw everything up. The same twist from the 3rd game, a set up of 3 games using the 3rd rule to unravel it! A masterful troll, the number 3 is very important and is alluded in Umineko and in the Divine Comedy as well. |
2010-12-09, 08:26 | Link #19592 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2010
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I have a problem with this. I think it's an interesting, fresh answer, but it's also one that would've been better suited to a work of smaller scope. For Umineko, it would be a half-assed solution. It is just awkward that, after spending perhaps over 80 hours reading, and so much more hypothesizing, we suddenly are told that the vast majority of the work has been a pointless red herring, and that it isn't a mystery or a fantasy at all. I suppose you could say that you felt it was implied from the very beginning, which it could well have been, but it is not the impression I get from this work, and I consider it carelessness on the author's part if two readers could have such different conclusions at this point. My conclusion is the exact opposite: the implication is that this is both a mystery and a fantasy. If you think about it it really makes a lot of sense. The locked rooms, the murders, what really happened; these all have a consistent, logical explanation and a (direct) human cause. However, the theme; the fantastical volumes from authors; and perhaps the real motive behind the crime, all involve witches and magic. And even if both these solutions are equally probable, I would still take mine over yours, because otherwise it would feel like I am deriding the work. |
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2010-12-09, 08:39 | Link #19593 | |
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2010-12-09, 08:50 | Link #19594 |
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I don't know how the ending will be, but I too strongly feel it won't be a 'love story' kind of thing. It might involve a love story, and it would certainly involve some concept of 'love' (not necessarily of the romantic kind, or even between characters in the story), but this doesn't seem to be where it's going. In the least, I think a lot of the 'love' shown to us in the last few episodes has been more tainted than we give it credit for. (Ryushiki is a master at portraying the happenings on the island in whichever light he chooses. He made what may well be tragic murder scenes into silly love stories. It wouldn't surprise me if he did the opposite, too. Besides, EP3, anyone?)
Last edited by witchfan; 2010-12-09 at 09:07. |
2010-12-09, 09:15 | Link #19595 |
Magical Cheff
Join Date: Oct 2010
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I don't know how logical it sounds but this ending is screwed up.I know it is ryukishi but even he wouldn't make an 8 part visual novel based on the concept of finding a culprit when there is no one and everything happened because of an explosion caused by a game organized by the servant girl.Even ryukishi isn't that stupid he wouldn't do something that would disappoint half the fans of umineko!!!
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2010-12-09, 09:37 | Link #19596 | |
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Granted, it's probably impossible to please everyone. But he's catered to, teased at, and thrown out shout-outs to mystery fans the whole way through the story. To turn around and tell them they were barking up the wrong tree is a bit more than a betrayal of those readers. It's basically teasing them for liking the genre the author pretended to like too. There's a lot of things ryukishi can get away with in the name of literature, but there's a remarkably small number of things he's actually set himself up to permissibly get away with. A "no culprit, it was a coincidental and tragic accident spun out of hand" ending is not impossible, but he hasn't properly established the literary framework to make it acceptable. So yes, I think some people would be rightfully disappointed, and I don't think it's because they're looking at things in some shortsighted or incorrect way.
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2010-12-09, 10:36 | Link #19597 | |||
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How about the wedding with everyone present at the end of episode 6? "Oh hey, I know you killed us all but we can be friends now." Awkward.
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2010-12-09, 11:11 | Link #19598 |
Miss Kimi
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Residing as the 18th guest of Rokkenjima
Age: 28
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I'm not even sure what to expect from EP8 anymore. I mean, we've (or maybe just you guys, all I've been doing is asking questions xD) dissected almost every possibility there may be, such as Shannon wanting to play a game but the real mastermind decided to really kill, there were no murders and it was all a natural disaster, or Kinzo poisoned them all and chopped them up to appear as if they were murdered very brutally (such as them finding Maria's jaw or something, what's up with that?) 8D
Okay, maybe I made that last one up, but yeah. I'm still thouroughly confused over whether magic is really REAL or not. I mean, EP1 didn't have any "magic" involved, it wasn't even a game. Then magic happens at the end and continues on from there. If it's really reality going on but "meta magic whatever" is covering it (Ex: Eva-Beatrice trying to kill Beatrice, in the magic meta whatever world it seemed that, but some people suspect in reality it was just real Eva trying to destroy the Beato-bomb) why would they have magic covering it then? It's just confusing, 'tis all. I mean, what else can Ryu07 do that will definately put us through a loop, even though we've covered almost every possibility there is? There probably won't even be a loop, I don't know. Ryu07 may have something up his sleeve, or he never did and never really meant to get us fans all hyped up even when there was going to be "nothing". But I'd never think of Ryu07 that way. I still have a little faith in him, we just have to wait a few days for EP8 and then wait a few months for the English~
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2010-12-09, 11:22 | Link #19599 | |||
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Is it pointless? Absolutely not. There's definitely a statement you can make about it if you say there's no culprit. In fact, you could make a very valid statement, one I've long ruminated on (per sig): "These people are dead. If you say there's a crime, you have to finger one of them as a criminal. They can't defend themselves from that. Leave them alone already." But I don't think he's thematically set himself up for a meditation on the inadequacies of the mystery genre compared to real-life ambiguous pseudo-criminal incidents. Just about everything he's presented has been encouraging, even demanding that his reader not accept Okonogi's assurance to Ange that it was an "unfortunate incident." We've been asked to find the truth; there's a certain elegance to the "the truth was always in front of you" answer, but in this case I just don't think it's been properly established as a theme. Certainly there's some mystery criticism going on in Umineko, but to subvert the fundamental ideas of knowability and criminality after the fact... that takes a particular foundation. He hasn't really set it. I think it will just be an underwhelming or forced-sympathetic culprit. I actually expect to be disappointed. And again, that's not necessarily a poor ending... I just think it would be given what he's worked towards all this time. Quote:
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