AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > General > News & Politics

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2015-07-05, 00:16   Link #41
JokerD
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
I'm not an army geek (no offense to anyone deeply involved with that kind of stuff but I can't come up with a better term), however there have been numerous breaches of maritime borders in the aegean by Turkey and their so-called proposal to help Greece with 8b stood on the condition that the aegean essentially become a free-pass zone. THAT is one step away from an actual invasion, so yeah, if we can find no support from another country, there's not much to stop people from trying. I'd like to believe that Europe is civilized enough to avoid war, but considering all the modern warfare that's taking place, it wouldn't be that much of a surprise if something happened here too.
Err... no, Greece is part of NATO, so no invasions here.

Anyway, I don't see how the banks can open on Monday, the finance minister is saying the Europe forced them to close the banks. Didn't they do it to themselves?
And no, giving last minute request to extend the moneyline does not count a new proposal.
JokerD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-07-05, 02:48   Link #42
Eisdrache
Part-time misanthrope
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
The finance minister along with the prime minister have proven many times in the past that they're completely incompetent for their job.
Eisdrache is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-07-05, 11:55   Link #43
Blaat
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by JokerD View Post
Anyway, I don't see how the banks can open on Monday, the finance minister is saying the Europe forced them to close the banks. Didn't they do it to themselves?
ECB pretty much forced Greece to close the banks by not expanding the ELA. And by not expanding ELA ECB is doing something which against the nature of a central bank: not keeping the banking system stay afloat.
__________________
Blaat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-07-05, 12:02   Link #44
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
That's like saying amputating a limb is against Hippocrate's oath.

Last edited by Anh_Minh; 2015-07-05 at 13:24.
Anh_Minh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-07-05, 13:15   Link #45
Der Langrisser
Valkyrie pilot
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Rouen, France
Age: 35
The "No" largely won with at the moment 61% of the votes

-link to the Greek ministry of Interior with the ballot count:
http://ekloges.ypes.gr/current/e/pub...2id%22:1%7D%7D
Der Langrisser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-07-05, 13:58   Link #46
Xellos-_^
Not Enough Sleep
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 42
well good luck to you guys in Greece.

But if your PM thinks he can use the no vote for a better deal he is delusional.
__________________

Last edited by Xellos-_^; 2015-07-05 at 14:19.
Xellos-_^ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-07-05, 14:04   Link #47
Lutz2
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaat View Post
ECB pretty much forced Greece to close the banks by not expanding the ELA. And by not expanding ELA ECB is doing something which against the nature of a central bank: not keeping the banking system stay afloat.
The ELA Programm is a monetary State financing and that is forbidden! The ELA was only for a short Time, so that the Banks donīt crush. So you canīt say that the ECB is at fault, they are already cross the red Line for what is allowed.

http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the...ticle-123.html


Well looks like for a No, lets see what happened next, maybe there will be Votes in other Countries now too. Why should Greece the only one, that can do something like that.
Lutz2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-07-05, 14:58   Link #48
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
well good luck to you guys in Greece.

But if your PM thinks he can use the no vote for a better deal he is delusional.
The Greek PM just got his mandate to continue with the game of Chicken by his voters. Now it is Germany's turn to decide, to blink or not to blink. Germany have more to lose, but of course no one knows what is going to happen.
__________________
Vallen Chaos Valiant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-07-05, 15:07   Link #49
sneaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Merkel wants to hold Greece. The question is what the other Euro members want to do.
sneaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-07-05, 15:08   Link #50
Lutz2
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
From Martina Stevis "Wall Street Journal" on Twitter:
"What I'm getting from people who voted "no" is that they overwhelmingly believe Tsipras & his promise of a new negotiation starting tomorrow." Ok

https://twitter.com/MatinaStevis
Lutz2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-07-05, 15:10   Link #51
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lutz2 View Post
From Martina Stevis "Wall Street Journal" on Twitter:
What I'm getting from people who voted "no" is that they overwhelmingly believe Tsipras & his promise of a new negotiation starting tomorrow. Ok
They are not wrong. Basically Tsipras had passed his own vote of confidence and will now play hardball all the way. And the only way for Greece to stay in the Euro is if rest of EU gives in. Game theory once again. You win a game of chicken only if you are willing to crash the car. Would the rest of EU be willing to crash the car?
__________________
Vallen Chaos Valiant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-07-05, 15:13   Link #52
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
The Greek PM just got his mandate to continue with the game of Chicken by his voters. Now it is Germany's turn to decide, to blink or not to blink. Germany have more to lose, but of course no one knows what is going to happen.
They may have more to lose, but they can better afford it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
They are not wrong. Basically Tsipras had passed his own vote of confidence and will now play hardball all the way. And the only way for Greece to stay in the Euro is if rest of EU gives in. Game theory once again. You win a game of chicken only if you are willing to crash the car. Would the rest of EU be willing to crash the car?
Well, it isn't their car...
Anh_Minh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-07-05, 15:13   Link #53
James Rye
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Germany
Well, they said "no".

I doubt that will change the mind of the other 18 euro-countries though. They got their own people to worry about, they can't agree to a debt cut without losing their own elections and trust. Plus it feels unfair how one country says "this has to go this way" while the other 18 say "no, we can't do that without losing our faces" and then the one country says "I gonna hold a referendum prepared during a week and when it says no, you gonna do what I say".

I really doubt this will work how Tsipras and Varoufakis imagine this to happen.

What I see if that the extreme and nationalist parties in all EU countries will grow stronger due that referendum aka back to the national roots, down with the EU, "see even the greek people said no".

Well, the next days gonna be interesting.
__________________
James Rye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-07-05, 15:18   Link #54
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Well, it isn't their car...
Exactly.


This is why the Greek government is willing to gamble this way, and why the No vote won. The outcome is risky but it is actually in their favour. The truth is the debt relief they demand is a VERY small amount of money for the EU, EU is only holding out due to a combination of political pressure at home and principle of it all. And precisely because of that, the rest of EU have more incentive to swerve in this chicken game. I am not saying they will give in, I am saying they are more likely to.
__________________
Vallen Chaos Valiant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-07-05, 15:25   Link #55
James Rye
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Germany
But isn't it unfair that Greece can himself decides to get a debt from its creditors cut while the other states which were also in a crisis had to get out of it by doing harsh reforms? Reforms like taxes on plots, a reform which Greece even to this day has been unable to fully implment into their tax system, but they are able to hold a referendum within a week. It feels like this referendum has been planned much longer ago than just last week.
And what about the euro countries who also paid Greece money but have a much lower living standard for their people with like 10-20 euro per day and they have to read how Greek people cry and complain and blame them for having only 60 € per day (which is a sum even I don't have per day...). They could have needed that money which will now disappear in the black hole that is called Greece for their own economy, their streets and schools and hospitals. :/
__________________
James Rye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-07-05, 15:34   Link #56
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Rye View Post
But isn't it unfair that Greece can himself decides to get a debt from its creditors cut while the other states which were also in a crisis had to get out of it by doing harsh reforms?
Greece had already done harsh reforms. It failed.

The fact is EU had only itself to blame that Greece could blackmail them this way. The Euro fantasy was always unstable from the beginning, now they just had to decide if the fantasy is worth paying the Greeks. "Fair" or "Unfair" is relative. Much like how every single member of the EU actually failed to qualify for EU membership financially, even Germany, and that it was all faked in order to dream up a future United States of Europe.

Now is crunch time. The rest of EU either pay for that dream, or let the dream die.
__________________
Vallen Chaos Valiant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-07-05, 15:41   Link #57
James Rye
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Germany
Well, people like Nigel Farage and Le Pen are already celebrating this no as the first step to the end of the EU project. The only question is who will be blamed for it in the history books, Tsipras or Merkel.
__________________
James Rye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-07-05, 15:42   Link #58
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Exactly.


This is why the Greek government is willing to gamble this way, and why the No vote won. The outcome is risky but it is actually in their favour. The truth is the debt relief they demand is a VERY small amount of money for the EU, EU is only holding out due to a combination of political pressure at home and principle of it all. And precisely because of that, the rest of EU have more incentive to swerve in this chicken game. I am not saying they will give in, I am saying they are more likely to.
What is their incentive to "swerve"? The opportunity to play chicken again in a few years? Or to play chicken with other, bigger countries?

Or they can let the Greek car crash, and whatever problems arise, at least they'll be different.
Anh_Minh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-07-05, 15:45   Link #59
Lutz2
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Exactly.


This is why the Greek government is willing to gamble this way, and why the No vote won. The outcome is risky but it is actually in their favour. The truth is the debt relief they demand is a VERY small amount of money for the EU, EU is only holding out due to a combination of political pressure at home and principle of it all. And precisely because of that, the rest of EU have more incentive to swerve in this chicken game. I am not saying they will give in, I am saying they are more likely to.
Itīs not really a small Amount for some Countryīs in the Euro-Zone States. Like Slovakia or the Baltic-States, they have a way lower Life Standard then Greece.
Lutz2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-07-05, 15:46   Link #60
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Rye View Post
Well, people like Nigel Farage and Le Pen are already celebrating this no as the first step to the end of the EU project. The only question is who will be blamed for it in the history books, Tsipras or Merkel.
I will blame neither. The EU project was almost like trying to get two strangers married by making them to live in the same house. There was no reason that living together would lead to marriage, but that was the logic the EU project was using. That hoping by magic, if the nations could get closer then eventually a Federal Europe would appear one day.

Quote:
What is their incentive to "swerve"? The opportunity to play chicken again in a few years? Or to play chicken with other, bigger countries?
Greece is not demanding more borrowed money, but actual debt write-downs. (I know they got it before but it wasn't enough.) Greece is demanding that the debt be reduced to the point where paying the rest back is actually physically possible. Because so far the only thing they were offered is just more delays. EU was not willing to do anymore haircuts, but it is literally the only way out for Greece other than defaulting.

Varoufakis made it clear that for as long as he remained the finance minister, Greece will maintain a budget surplus. The population understand they can't borrow again in the foreseeable future.
__________________
Vallen Chaos Valiant is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 23:22.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
We use Silk.