2011-02-08, 18:12 | Link #2981 | ||||
In scientific terms only.
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If I may place my two cents on the table?
Looks to me like the problem of evil has cropped up again. It's one that can be roundly argued over and over, with no appreciable resolution in sight. We can argue over whether or not [insert deities of appropriate number here] is/are benevolent or not, but eventually this runs aground of the problem of how benevolence and malevolence are defined. On the secular side of things, morality is necessarily subjective since there is no concrete moral code to point to. On the theistic side of things, since God (to be Christian-centric, as that's what we're currently arguing over and what I'm most familiar with) himself sets the moral code, we have to face whether God is subject to his own rules and the slew of rationalizations towards that along with the accompanying Euthyphro dilemma. As a person who became anti-religious (and agnostic-atheist) partly out of disdain for the idea of a benevolent God, the problem of evil is something I've often thought about. Regardless, I have a certain few critiques I have to put out there. I apologize in advance if it seems confrontational or offensive. Quote:
Further, the idea of free will itself is a rather touchy subject when we come into the idea that God is omniscient. If God knows your actions beforehand, then it cannot truly be free will if we also assume that the conditions that led to your actions are due to the intervention or non-intervention of God; again, things we have no direct control over. Quote:
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This is assuming that remaining alive is a beneficial thing, which is debatable if we assume the approximate truth of Christian tradition. That's another thing, though. |
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2011-02-09, 07:51 | Link #2982 |
Giga Drill Breaker
Join Date: Jan 2009
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im catholic but im not religious im more of 90% science believer and 10% religion believer
imo religion just divide more humanity rather than making us all united and understand one another, religion is some sort of barrier among people in mild to extreme cases, base on what i observe |
2011-02-09, 12:22 | Link #2984 | |
Giga Drill Breaker
Join Date: Jan 2009
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and like i said im 90% science and 10% religion so the 10% is still hanging in there and mind explaining why you think its worse? do you mean if your on a religion you should be a 100% believer/follower/devoter of it? Religion is not all their is to life though |
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2011-02-09, 15:24 | Link #2985 | |||||||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Obviously one does what one, on some level, wants. Otherwise we're not "doing something". Something is happening to us. Furthermore, you're displacing the problem of good vs evil to proper vs improper. A simple word substitution. That's not definition, it's obfuscation. That's why I say your point of view, while not necessarily wrong, is useless. Quote:
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2011-02-09, 19:19 | Link #2987 | |
Onee-Chan Power~!
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: In this reality (A.K.A. Colorado, U.S.A.)
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You can't have an atom of oxygen, oxygen is a molecule made from atoms.
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2011-02-09, 19:59 | Link #2989 |
Formerly -> CMHerrera
Graphic Designer
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Around
Age: 30
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I guess I would say I'm a Catholic, I go to church and go to events now and then. I was raised into being Catholic and I guess I could say I am a believer, But I am not totally religious, and I am curious on other religions, and scientific theories.
Spoiler for A bit off topic:
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2011-02-09, 21:23 | Link #2990 | |
Juanita/Kiteless
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: New England
Age: 40
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I personally don't care what it says in the Qu'ran after reading a verse that says Christians will be inhabitants of hell and a verse that says Jews will be inhabitants of hell. Sure, there are some things I can agree with in the Qu'ran, but there are things in the Qu'ran I don't believe in, such as the things I referenced in this paragraph. There are other things I read in the Qu'ran I don't like and don't agree with. I mean...I'm not anti-Muslim; I know there is a good number of good Muslims out there, but like how some in this thread don't like Christianity, I don't care for Islam due to certain things about it. I find some good things in it, but overall it is not a religion I like all that much. Heck, to be fair, I'm like a Christian in a lot of ways, but there are things about Christianity I don't like and/or believe in, and I don't think everything in the bible is true, so I don't just think those things about the Qu'ran only.
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Last edited by Urzu 7; 2011-02-09 at 22:34. |
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2011-02-09, 22:51 | Link #2991 |
Onee-Chan Power~!
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: In this reality (A.K.A. Colorado, U.S.A.)
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So therefore the breathable oxygen that he was referring to has to be paired with another, to make it dioxygen, and therefore a molecule. I understand that Oxygen is a basic element on it's own.
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2011-02-09, 23:00 | Link #2993 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
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I applaud your skepticism and open mindedness about all three of the major Abrahamic religions. While I think it highly likely that Moses wrote the Torah, that the 12 Apostles wrote the New Testament, and that Mohammad (and his successors) wrote the Quaran. I also have no doubt in my mind that there is a strong possibility those texts were altered to fit the needs of each religion by kings, priests, and warlords long after the deaths of those original authors. That's where the genesis of my own personal quest to find the truth about God stems. That said I will state that there is a great deal of information in those three works which is facinating to me. The Jewish texts are especially interesting as they were written before the time of Jesus and contain some rather modern ideas. You may find this article by Aryeh Kaplan interesting (note, this was written some time in the 1980s before Aryeh died in 1983). http://www.torah.org/features/second...rrestrial.html However, I don't agree with Rabbi Kaplan about the universe being made solely for mankind.
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Last edited by GundamFan0083; 2011-02-09 at 23:15. |
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2011-02-09, 23:00 | Link #2994 |
Banned
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For Islam, Jesus is a prophet just like Abraham, Muhammad, Moses,etc.
Regarding the term "slave", it's similar to servant, but using Slave of God is , in my opinion is justifiable in a since that God made us,and therefore He owns us. Jesus, for us Muslims is but a mortal man, that makes miracles and nothing more. We are all slaves of God, in if you want you can escape it by not believing in Him but face the consequences in the end. Think this, God is the highness and the others are all in below Him. All is made to serve Him. Again, it's Islams belief and religions shares different beliefs and don't compare any of them because they are different. |
2011-02-09, 23:31 | Link #2995 | ||
Juanita/Kiteless
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: New England
Age: 40
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The stuff underlined is stuff that applies to me for the most part. I believe that there is truth in the three western religions and their holy books, but I believe that in those holy books there are things that are inaccurate or wrong, and then the religions themselves diverged even further. I'm also on a personal quest to find out more about God and spirituality as I live my life. I do like Christianity very much for what it gets right. I do like Judaism, too. Islam I'm mixed about. I'm very willing to give it more chances, but I've read things in the Qu'ran that really displease me, and I think that the organized religion of Islam and how it's run by Islamic religious leaders and certain government leaders/officials (like Iran) and the problem with militant extremists and their supporters...well, as you can see, with the religion of Islam, there are many who, I think, are in the wrong. And for the good Muslims who want peace, they are trampled out of the picture by those who seek conflict, it seems. So I have some problems with the religion, but often times I remind myself that there are many good Muslims, too, and I know it is important to stay fair minded about things, even if that is a challenge sometimes. Edit: Read the link. Interesting read. I still really think that God has made a vast universe not solely for humans, but for spiritual beings across the universe, who have free will and so forth. I read up on eastern religion, too. I like many things about it. I don't know if I really believe in reincarnation or rebirth, but if either were real, that'd make for a fascinating reality.
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Last edited by Urzu 7; 2011-02-09 at 23:43. |
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2011-02-10, 01:04 | Link #2996 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
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I'm happy you enjoyed the article.
And I agree with you about the universe being made for all life, not just mankind. Kaplan was an interesting fellow IMHO, and the mentor who lead me to question everything organized religion teaches (even though that was not necessarily his intention). Another of his findings that led me to question the status quo of traditional Judeo-Christian dogma was this article he wrote on the age of the universe: http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/fai...aryeh_kap.html
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2011-02-10, 01:47 | Link #2997 | |
Juanita/Kiteless
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: New England
Age: 40
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*sigh* Reality has so many mysteries. That is sometimes a part of the awe and wonder of being a human being. That is also a source of frustration, especially if one struggles with some dogmatic beliefs of western religions, as they basically tell us "if you believe in the wrong things/don't believe in certain things, you face severe consequences". Really, it bugs me when Islam and Christianity teach that "non-believers" will suffer for an eternity. For not believing in certain things many people will get that punishment? Really? So very harsh for a loving God that is the most compassionate. Especially when we are finite beings with very finite perspectives. Our beliefs depend so much on subjective experience/s and psychology. To think many would (if either of those religions claims on the ill consequences of being a non-believer are to be true) suffer for an eternity for believing the wrong things or simply not believing in the "right things". Phooey. : ( /rant I really do like the eastern religions take on Heaven and the afterlife. Buddhism and Hinduism do teach that there is rebirth and reincarnation (respectively), but both religions believe that there are Heaven realms and hell realms (they just believe that escape from samsara [the realm of death and rebirth] and to merge with God [Hinduism] or dwell in Nirvana [Buddhism] are the ultimate spiritual destinations of beings). Anyways, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Taoism all don't stress the importance of believing in the "right things" or not. And Buddhism has, in a nutshell, a pretty straight forward plan for one to get to Heaven (if one has to go even further to Nirvana or not is a bit irrelevant with what I'm talking about now; just simply talking about Heaven): Be an exceptionally good person who excels in loving kindess and compassion, one who treats others well and regards others well. As in, be a good person. Specific beliefs are secondary to these things. Really, I hope that that is what is most important for salvation, that those things are what help get people to Heaven the most, with beliefs just being a means to form a good moral compass. Some beliefs aid you in being a great person, some aid you to be good, and so forth, and sometimes beliefs don't serve you well and cause you to go astray, and that is when beliefs matter; when they are not good beliefs that only drive you away from being a good person.
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2011-02-10, 02:54 | Link #2998 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
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Here's a book that gives the Hebrew/Judaic mystical view of reincarnation and other metaphysical ideas.
Good book. http://books.google.com/books?id=M1W...0bahir&f=false
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2011-02-10, 23:59 | Link #2999 |
Onee-Chan Power~!
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: In this reality (A.K.A. Colorado, U.S.A.)
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I agree with Urzu 7. It is important to remember that eastern religions are more "free" and straightforward because they are not politicized . Hell is a fear tactic to gain more followers, then more power.
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2011-02-11, 00:05 | Link #3000 | |
Juanita/Kiteless
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: New England
Age: 40
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Also, as I mentioned in an earlier post, Buddhism and Hinduism believe in Heaven realms and hell realms, so it isn't just western religions that believe in hell. I really do believe there are Heaven realms and hell realms. Morality matters, especially how we treat and regard others, and your afterlife experience will be dictated by your life, who you were as a person, and your actions. Being a good person is to the benefit of many you interact with and oneself, as well.
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not a debate, philosophy, religion |
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