Code Geass R2 - Episode 25 Discussion / Poll [END]

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

I never said otherwise.

Suzaku is one of the shows biggest hypocrites, just like Lelouch. I don't see why you expect him to stop being hypocritical at that moment when his character had been broken by that point and he was doing everything counter to what he (had) preached.

As for simply killing him, I addressed this before. Suzaku's character had been about taking everything from Lelouch in R2. The culmination of it is ZR. ZR is the justification for all the crap he pulled in the name of hunting down Zero/Lelouch through R2.

Which I would have bought had Suzaku and Lelouch not buried the hatchet by then. Suzaku wouldn't be asking Lelouch if he wanted to do it, nor would he have been so emotional after delivering the fatal blow to Lelouch.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

The problem, for me, through out the show was not understanding each other, I think they understood each other perfectly, it was that they could not accept each others methods. Even in Season 1, it is not "I don't get it", it is "I don't accept it." I mean that is how Suzaku faces off against Lelouch/Zero and Kallen during the Euphemia arc, "I understand but I can't accept it."

They always had conflicting ideologies, not conflicting understandings or opinions of one another.

I always got the impression Suzaku didn't understand Lelouch at all in some respects - not until the World of C.
When Lelouch killed Euphie, Suzaku thought his hatred had turned his friend into a monster, someone who would even go so far as to kill his half-sister and, later on, Shirley in cold blood.

Edit: Oh, and Lelouch never seemed like much of a hyporcrite to me.

[azul120]

Not to mention that of course, either Suzaku at the very least understood that the killing of Euphie wasn't on purpose, or, and there's no confirmation to this, Suzaku was told the truth about what happened.

[Narona]

Originally Posted by Eliarine

According to your definition of friends, the one into which Lelouch and Suzaku never really fit in the first place.

Given what we can read in mutuality (IIRC, pink-chan told me that the little stories are by Okouchi himself), I think they were friends in the end.

Also, Suzaku asked Lelouch if "he was sure" about wanting to do it (dying). As I see it, lelouch had the choice. It was Lelouch's choice, not suzaku's order.

Suzaku was sad in the end. For me, they were friends again. And Mutuality proves that imho.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Narona

Given what we can read in mutuality (IIRC, pink-chan told me that the little stories are by Okouchi himself), I think they were friends in the end.

Also, Suzaku asked Lelouch if "he was sure" about wanting to do it (dying). As I see it, lelouch had the choice. It was Lelouch's choice, not suzaku's order.

Suzaku was sad in the end. For me, they were friends again. And Mutuality proves that imho.

My thoughts and sentiments exactly. I mean, Suzaku would be too adamant about any grudges, had he still had them, to once again be friends with Lelouch.

[Eliarine]

Originally Posted by Narona

Given what we can read in mutuality (IIRC, pink-chan told me that the little stories are by Okouchi himself), I think they were friends in the end.

Also, Suzaku asked Lelouch if "he was sure" about wanting to do it (dying). As I see it, lelouch had the choice. It was Lelouch's choice, not suzaku's order.

Suzaku was sad in the end. For me, they were friends again. And Mutuality proves that imho.

Oh, I agree completely don't worry. What I meant was that their relationship never really fit into a single, specific category, and that you couldn't really justify anything by saying that "real" friends would not act that way. Nobody can really decide who gets to be friends with whom nor how friends should act. Okouchi said they were friends again in the end, in the truest sense of the word, and that is enough for me.

[Narona]

Originally Posted by azul120

My thoughts and sentiments exactly. I mean, Suzaku would be too adamant about any grudges, had he still had them, to once again be friends with Lelouch.

As i said in the lelouch's thread, Suzaku was already on his side before the planning of the ZR, and so, that Lelouch will die.

It wasn't decided in the ep21

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Narona

Given what we can read in mutuality (IIRC, pink-chan told me that the little stories are by Okouchi himself), I think they were friends in the end.

Also, Suzaku asked Lelouch if "he was sure" about wanting to do it (dying). As I see it, lelouch had the choice. It was Lelouch's choice, not suzaku's order.

Suzaku was sad in the end. For me, they were friends again. And Mutuality proves that imho.

And Suzaku had a choice. To reject it. And he did not, not because he hated Lelouch or anything, like a lot of people claim.
The point is, that after all they have been through, Lelouch and Suzaku have reached another level of "being friends-archenemies".
In the end, yes, i suppose they both played football in the best-friends field, and they both felt the need to be punished, by one another, for their "sins."
I saw the whole ZR, not only as the zomg!plan liberate the planetooo, which was the main purpose, but also, two people that "had" to repent for their sins by killing one another only.
If there was a person that should/could kill Lelouch, that would be Suzaku. And the opposite.
You can't fight fate.

[Lolipopo]

That's really an interesting debate, I never eally wonder about Suzakuand Lelouchs relationship at the end; They weren't anymore the best buddies of the world for me, but more two persons with a strong past friendship bound kinda ruined by everything whih happen until then and by their duty (ZR= Suzaku has to kill Lelouch)

They seemed a bit distant at the end, and Suzaku seemed pretty adamant about ZR (Turn 23); I think their friendhsip was there, but kinda put on a side because of ZR and everything which happened.
Their last decision, before ZR was one between renewed old friends though. A sort of desperate last encounters between their friends side if I can word it this way.
Out of this very moment, they didn't really act as friends during the last arc, which is pretty understable, cause ZR HAD TO HAPPEN (and lol. If they choose to create The Devil emperor instead of a more logical (and certainly better method) Beautiful Emperor that's simply for the awesomness. Lelouch as a nice and great emperor who change he world for the better is less impressive that Lelouch as a bastard who dies in a fabulous way. )

Illogical, yeah, but it works better on screen.

Now those character were bitter thus that's normal. After everything which happened I can't see them running on a prairie singing while holding hands.There are things both will never be able to forget, thus their friendship couldn't be the same as before.

BTW could someone repost the story of Mutuality about Suzaku and Lelouch ? I remind a bit this one but I would like to take a look back.

[Narona]

Originally Posted by Eliarine

Oh, I agree completely don't worry. What I meant was that their relationship never really fit into a single, specific category, and that you couldn't really justify anything by saying that "real" friends would not act that way. Nobody can really decide who gets to be friends with whom nor how friends should act. Okouchi said they were friends again in the end, in the truest sense of the word, and that is enough for me.

Well, sometimes friends can be in a fight, right?

They were friends, then they became enemies, and as i personally see it, they became friends again in the end.

About the ZR, I don't only see lelouch dying. In fact, imo Suzaku got the worst place. He lost his identity. He can't show his face, and promised to be only Zero for the rest of his life. So, he became a mere symbol, and nothing more. What a shitty life he got. As shitty as death. But he did see that as retribution.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Lolipopo

They seemed a bit distant at the end, and Suzaku seemed pretty adamant about ZR (Turn 23);

I always saw that as him insinuating that there was no turning back, and Lelouch had to snap out of it. It was more about him now being focused on achieving pre-planned goals.

[Eliarine]

Originally Posted by Narona

Well, sometimes friends can be in a fight, right?

They were friends, then they became enemies, and as i personally see it, they became friends again in the end.

About the ZR, I don't only see lelouch dying. In fact, imo Suzaku got the worst place. He lost his identity. He can't show his face, and promised to be only Zero for the rest of his life. So, he became a mere symbol, and nothing more. What a shitty life he got. As shitty as death. But he did see that as retribution.

I think one of the interviews suggested that their friendship in season 1 was not as strong as it became after they joined forces. I had it bookmarked but my computer had a little identity crisis some time ago and I can't find it anymore. Something about the first friendship being more childhood friends strangely reunited and the two of them becoming real friends after Turn 21.

They way I see it, they both "died", each suffering the punishment the other wanted for himself.

...sob.

[Narona]

Originally Posted by azul120

I always saw that as him insinuating that there was no turning back, and Lelouch had to snap out of it. It was more about him now being focused on achieving pre-planned goals.

Once it was started, I don't see how they would have been able to do a backstep. So I agree.

Originally Posted by Eliarine

I think one of the interviews suggested that their friendship in season 1 was not as strong as it became after they joined forces. I had it bookmarked but my computer had a little identity crisis some time ago and I can't find it anymore. Something about the first friendship being more childhood friends strangely reunited and the two of them becoming real friends after Turn 21.

Found it.

Originally Posted by Translation by Celiss Galvea

Taniguchi: From my point of view, Lelouch and Suzaku's relationship in the previous series did not go beyond that of reunited childhood friends. It wasn't "friendship" -- they were playing at a "make-believe friendship". With R2, my intention was to show how it turned into "friendship" in the truest sense of the word. ....

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by Narona

Once it was started, I don't see how they would have been able to do a backstep. So I agree.

Found it.

I feel bad for Taniguchi's friends

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Narona

Given what we can read in mutuality (IIRC, pink-chan told me that the little stories are by Okouchi himself), I think they were friends in the end.

Also, Suzaku asked Lelouch if "he was sure" about wanting to do it (dying). As I see it, lelouch had the choice. It was Lelouch's choice, not suzaku's order.

Suzaku was sad in the end. For me, they were friends again. And Mutuality proves that imho.

At the absolute very last second when Suzaku as Zero had to kill Lelouch they were sort of friends again. Suzaku finally realized when the moment came that he didn't want to follow through in killing Lelouch and was second guessing himself right up to the moment where he finally did it. He knew that his single minded quest for revenge had brought him to this point, but that there was no turning back and ultimately he had destroyed himself and all of those around him in going through with it, which was in fact the opposite of what Euphemia wanted in asking him to forgive Zero/Lelouch. It was a very well done and tragic end to his character I thought.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

I always got the impression Suzaku didn't understand Lelouch at all in some respects - not until the World of C.
When Lelouch killed Euphie, Suzaku thought his hatred had turned his friend into a monster, someone who would even go so far as to kill his half-sister and, later on, Shirley in cold blood.

Edit: Oh, and Lelouch never seemed like much of a hyporcrite to me.

Lelouch struggled between three goals, one was in giving Nunally the world he thought she wanted, another was in helping the Black Knights to bring an end to the Britannian occupation, and the final one was in trying to get to the bottom of how his mother "died". These three goals however often came into conflict with one another such that he was forced to make decisions that screwed over another one of his goals and all of those who shared it. Keeping the balance between all of these and stumbling quite a few times in the process kind of made him look like a hypocrit at times, but I have little doubt that he was well aware of it.

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

I feel bad for Taniguchi's friends

Okay what is it with you and your single minded quest against this guy's reputation? At first it was just kind of laughable in that you trashed this guy's style of directing so much and were in no position to really have any business doing so, but now it's crossed over into the realm of disturbing in that it's starting to look personal as well as vindictive. I strongly suggest giving it a rest now and backing the heck off of the Code Geass staff as you are starting to lose perspective. You really don't want to be revealing these sorts of things to everyone here.

[yvj]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Okay what is it with you and your single minded quest against this guy's reputation? At first it was just kind of laughable in that you trashed this guy's style of directing so much and were in no position to really have any business doing so, but now it's crossed over into the realm of disturbing in that it's starting to look personal as well as vindictive. I strongly suggest giving it a rest now and backing the heck off of the Code Geass staff as you are starting to lose perspective. You really don't want to be revealing these sorts of things to everyone here.

And your over protectiveness of people you don't know on the other side of the planet reveals what?

If Charred Knight is looking vindictive you appear to be infatuated with CG staff.

I strongly suggest you allow people to voice their opinion on an open forum. You can counter point him to your heart's content but if he ain't trolling or breaking the rules then you've no ground to tell Knight to do anything.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

At the absolute very last second when Suzaku as Zero had to kill Lelouch they were sort of friends again. Suzaku finally realized when the moment came that he didn't want to follow through in killing Lelouch and was second guessing himself right up to the moment where he finally did it. He knew that his single minded quest for revenge had brought him to this point, but that there was no turning back and ultimately he had destroyed himself and all of those around him in going through with it, which was in fact the opposite of what Euphemia wanted in asking him to forgive Zero/Lelouch. It was a very well done and tragic end to his character I thought.



Lelouch struggled between three goals, one was in giving Nunally the world he thought she wanted, another was in helping the Black Knights to bring an end to the Britannian occupation, and the final one was in trying to get to the bottom of how his mother "died". These three goals however often came into conflict with one another such that he was forced to make decisions that screwed over another one of his goals and all of those who shared it. Keeping the balance between all of these and stumbling quite a few times in the process kind of made him look like a hypocrit at times, but I have little doubt that he was well aware of it.



Okay what is it with you and your single minded quest against this guy's reputation? At first it was just kind of laughable in that you trashed this guy's style of directing so much and were in no position to really have any business doing so, but now it's crossed over into the realm of disturbing in that it's starting to look personal as well as vindictive. I strongly suggest giving it a rest now and backing the heck off of the Code Geass staff as you are starting to lose perspective. You really don't want to be revealing these sorts of things to everyone here.

It was a joke based on the fact that Suzaku killed Lelouch

Your telling me that you don't find Taniguchi calling two people who pretty much ruin each others lives having "True friendship" funny

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by yvj

And your over protectiveness of people you don't know on the other side of the planet reveals what?

If Charred Knight is looking vindictive you appear to be infatuated with CG staff.

I strongly suggest you allow people to voice their opinion on an open forum. You can counter point him to your heart's content but if he ain't trolling or breaking the rules then you've no ground to tell Knight to do anything.

There's a difference between people voicing their opinion on a forum and people running wild with off topic and silly comments such as his last one. I'm also getting more then a little tired of his rhetoric if it wasn't immediately obvious and I believe I am more than within my rights to at the very least suggest for the umpteenth time that he maybe contribute something new to the conversation instead of just ignoring what everyone else says and going off on tangents while trying to bash this show as much as possible in the process. And I fail to see what he's contributed to the conversation in implying such things about a person who has no way of defending himself.

I also fail to see how suggesting that speculating about Taniguchi's private life should be off the table and that we should stick to talking about what he did with Code Geass is showcasing infatuation with the CG staff. I mean we aren't some paparazzi, we should I hope have a little more class then that. Talk like Charred Knight's just a while ago is the kind of stuff that 2channers engage in on anti-thread, not on episode discussion threads. It has no business here whatsoever.

[yvj]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

There's a difference between people voicing their opinion on a forum and people running wild with off topic and silly comments such as his last one. I'm also getting more then a little tired of his rhetoric if it wasn't immediately obvious and I believe I am more than within my rights to at the very least suggest for the umpteenth time that he maybe contribute something new to the conversation instead of just ignoring what everyone else says and going off on tangents while trying to bash this show as much as possible in the process. And I fail to see what he's contributed to the conversation in implying such things about a person who has no way of defending himself.

I also fail to see how suggesting that speculating about Taniguchi's private life should be off the table and that we should stick to talking about what he did with Code Geass is showcasing infatuation with the CG staff. I mean we aren't some paparazzi, we should I hope have a little more class then that. Talk like Charred Knight's just a while ago is the kind of stuff that 2channers engage in on anti-thread, not on episode discussion threads. It has no business here whatsoever.

I can't help but be reminded of the "please leave Britney alone" youtube guy.

Charred joke was no where near as serious as you are making it out to be.

You do realize what you "fail to see" or how you perceive discussions on the show should run has no bearing on how Charred Knight can choose to express his opinions within the rules set by animesuki.

None of the rules say he has to be positive or he can't point out flaws as many times as want.

CG is far from immaculate. Discussing what stunk about the show is perfectly reasonable in a sub forum about the show.

What is hard to understand? The show is being discussed positively or negatively.

If you don't like what he's saying how about using the ignore function?

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by yvj

I can't help but be reminded of the "please leave Britney alone" youtube guy.

Charred joke was no where near as serious as you are making it out to be.

You do realize what you "fail to see" or how you perceive discussions on the show should run has no bearing on how Charred Knight can choose to express his opinions within the rules set by animesuki.

None of the rules say he has to be positive or he can't point out flaws as many times as want.

CG is far from immaculate. Discussing what stunk about the show is perfectly reasonable in a sub forum about the show.

What is hard to understand? The show is being discussed positively or negatively.

If you don't like what he's saying how about using the ignore function?

I don't think I have ever seen anyone lash out at a joke like that. I mean I have been on the internet posting in forums for about 10 years now, and I can't remember anyone acting like that. This is an internet forum not a debate.

I don't have anything against Taniguchi in fact the only works of his I have seen is Code Geass and S-CRY-ed, and while I am a fan of only the first season of Code Geass (I found S-CRY-ed to be one of the most generic shonen series ever and dissapointing considering the talent involved) I don't hate the man. The only time I ever hate a person for doing a tv series/movie/book is when their work is either offensive, or the person comes off as an egotistical ass.

Taniguchi is neither