Fate/Zero - Episode 23 Discussion / Poll

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Trajan

Except that is clearly contradicted in the series. Berserker flings back Gil's noble phantasms from the Gate of Babylon and Avalon heals Iri.

I can accept the idea that the noble phantasms are "conceptual weapons," although as I noted above, the anime hasn't "earned" this interpretation.

Nope.

Berserker's ability is to turn anything he touches into his own noble phantasm. He can be skilled with everything. That's why he can grab Gil's noble phantasms like that. Notice Saber's excalibur was being taken over last episode for a brief moment before Saber kicked him away.

Iri only heals with Avalon while in Saber's presence. Watch the scene after Iri and Maiya talk to Tokiomi in the church and they're in the car. They mention it there I believe.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Trajan

But the thing is, Alexander's best treasure wasn't his men, it was his ability to use his men. The head-on clash just made the battle a question of "who has the better tools" rather than a question of "who can make the best use of their tools," which to me is much less interesting to watch.

He can use his men just fine (and no, they are his treasure). Military Tactics B.

Unfortunately, Ea is not something he can prevent or foresee. Gilgamesh didn't aim to his army, it aimed to the world itself. Take another beam weapon like Excalibur, he could prevent use it because he could play around with the positions of Saber and his army in the reality marble. Meanwhile, Ea can just destroy the world around them and take down the soldiers no matter where they are.

It isn't a battle of treasures here. It's a battle of concepts. Anti-World in a Reality Marble? What do you think it would happen?

[Reckoner]

Theoretically if Rider had his chariot could he have run down Gil before he managed to unleash Ea?

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Theoretically if Rider had his chariot could he have run down Gil before he managed to unleash Ea?

probably not,

there is still the Chain and whole bunch of other stuff in Gil's bag of tricks.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

probably not,

there is still the Chain and whole bunch of other stuff in Gil's bag of tricks.

But Rider isn't divine so the chain wouldn't do anything to him really.

Plus if he doesn't allow him to use Ea, I don't think Gate of Babylon would be a match for an entire army.

[ChronoReverse]

Rider is divine. He's believed to be the son of Zeus and thus is half god.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

But Rider isn't divine so the chain wouldn't do anything to him really.

Plus if he doesn't allow him to use Ea, I don't think Gate of Babylon would be a match for an entire army.

Rider has always claims to be the Son of Zeus. So his legend does include some divinity in it. Besides the Chain and EA, Gil still has a whole bunch of other stuff in it. Rider never stood a chance once Gil decide to take Rider seriously.

[Ithekro]

The notes say something about Ea taking out half the Army, and because of the lack of prana from them, the Reality Marble fell apart (taking out the other half of the army). Rider's Reality Marble is sustained by the prana from the men in his Army, Rider only uses his prana to summon them.

The concept that Ea destroys the world (the Reality Marble) makes more sense than it taking out half the army and the other half fall due to the world being unable to sustain itself.

[Trajan]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Nope.

Iri only heals with Avalon while in Saber's presence. Watch the scene after Iri and Maiya talk to Tokiomi in the church and they're in the car. They mention it there I believe.

I don't remember that scene, but I'll take your word for it. Although that would seem to contradict Fate Stay/Night, where:

Spoiler for Fate Stay/Night:

Kiritsugu saves Shirou's life by embedding Avalon in his body when Saber is nowhere near Shirou. *Edit to add* According to the typemoon wiki, there was "lingering prana" in Avalon that allowed it to heal Shirou, so that's an explanation of sorts.

[The Butcher]

Man, I almost cried this episode. You gotta appreciate a character that tries even when they know they'll lose.

Gilgamesh was so boss too, and that fight net week looks epic beyond proportions.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Theoretically if Rider had his chariot could he have run down Gil before he managed to unleash Ea?

He would have probably had a chance to beat him or bruise him afterwards when it was he against Gate of Babylon. Even if he got caught by the chains, he would have sent Gilgamesh some lightening bolts.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

The notes say something about Ea taking out half the Army, and because of the lack of prana from them, the Reality Marble fell apart (taking out the other half of the army). Rider's Reality Marble is sustained by the prana from the men in his Army, Rider only uses his prana to summon them.

The concept that Ea destroys the world (the Reality Marble) makes more sense than it taking out half the army and the other half fall due to the world being unable to sustain itself.

Ea took out the world first, that killed the soldiers (this could have been preventable with any other Noble Phantasm since he can choose where people stand). Rider needed their prana because he refused to do as Medusa, Gilgamesh or Medea (suck it from innocent bystanders or his own Master). He pretty much crippled himself because he didn't want to sacrifice anyone over the Grail.

He could only use it once more due to prana he depleted, anyway. Strange of why he didn't simply summon his Servants outside the reality marble (other than his horse). He can do that. They won't last except a couple of minutes, since they have Independent Action E-, just like his horse. But it is something.

[Paranoid Android]

Wahhhh so much inner weeping for me. this episode finally has come. Amazing episode ;__;

[Ithekro]

I'm under the impression Rider didn't have enough prana to summon them all outside the Reality Marble, as that should take a lot out of him (or just plain kill Waver from doing so). Plus inside the Marble, Rider has the advantage of terrain....unless your opponent can literally destroy the world. And how many people...in any age, can be expected to be able to do that?


One thing though. Of all these legends...most people will have heard of Arthur and Alexander the Great. They might even have an idea of what they did. Gilgamesh? He might have been first, but less people remember him.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Gilgamesh? He might have been first, but less people remember him.

In America? Sure. In Japan? He's in pretty much every Final Fantasy game, plus a lot of other fantasy RPGs. He's well known.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

I'm under the impression Rider didn't have enough prana to summon them all outside the Reality Marble, as that should take a lot out of him (or just plain kill Waver from doing so). Plus inside the Marble, Rider has the advantage of terrain....unless your opponent can literally destroy the world. And how many people...in any age, can be expected to be able to do that?


One thing though. Of all these legends...most people will have heard of Arthur and Alexander the Great. They might even have an idea of what they did. Gilgamesh? He might have been first, but less people remember him.

Tower of Duraga.

[ApathyEcstasy]

Originally Posted by GDB

In America? Sure. In Japan? He's in pretty much every Final Fantasy game, plus a lot of other fantasy RPGs. He's well known.

If we're basing this off of how many people in the world are more familiar with Arthur or Alexander than Gilgamesh, I am fairly certain that fewer people in the world have heard of Gilgamesh. Also, near-omnipotent characters are boring. We may as well summon the Abrahamic God and have him will the universe out of existence, call it GG. That'll end the holy grail war.

[hero147]

But the story originates from Japan. =)

[mAc Chaos]

Give it time.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by ApathyEcstasy

If we're basing this off of how many people in the world are more familiar

We aren't. While the world as a whole factors in, the locale they're summoned (or is it the locale of the war itself... I forget) factors in more heavily. Therefore, Japan's knowledge and perception > the rest of the world.

[ApathyEcstasy]

Originally Posted by GDB

We aren't. While the world as a whole factors in, the locale they're summoned (or is it the locale of the war itself... I forget) factors in more heavily. Therefore, Japan's knowledge and perception > the rest of the world.

You misunderstood. Essentially all I am saying is F--- Gilgamesh. I want to see Lancelot actually have a good master as he takes on Gilgamesh. Now THAT would be a fight to see. That whole spaceship vs fighter jet thing was stupid. I imagine that if Gilgamesh tried to use Enuma Elish on Lancelot, he would just gain control of it and turn it around on Gil.