Mobile Suit Gundam: Iron-Blooded Orphans Episode 22 Discussion Thread

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Arya

But yeah that's if the show cared for character growths

The show does care about character growth, but maybe not the way you like it.

In this episode, Orga getting “evil cheer-up” from Mika might not be the ideal (or even good) way to get him outta his funk, but it was necessary to get him back to lead the other kids who are in dire needs of a quick direction and support from him especially now that the “vice-captain” Eugene is not among them. Like they say, Mika is not the support Orga deserves but the one he needs right now. Who knows, maybe Merribit will help smooth the rough edges left on Orga after Mika harsh work on him .

[Arya]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

The show does care about character growth, but maybe not the way you like it.
In this episode, Orga getting “evil cheer-up” from Mika might not be the ideal (or even good) way to get him outta his funk, but it was necessary to get him back to lead the other kids who are in dire needs of a quick direction and support from him especially now that the “vice-captain” Eugene is not among them. Like they say, Mika is not the support Orga deserves but the one he needs right now. Who knows, maybe Merribit will help smooth the rough edges left on Orga after Mika harsh work on him .

That's my point, the fact is that Orga and Mika are like that and their bond hasn't been never really explored is symptomatic of what I'm talking about.
I'm fine with it, Orga need Mika and vice-versa, period. But I can't see any character growth in it, or in other characters.

[Ryuga]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

We learn about the A-V system and how it is related to Gjallerhorn and the Gundams, but why exactly does McGillis really want Ein and Gaelio to get it? There's a trick here somewhere, but I'm not sure what.

No idea why McGillis is so hellbent on getting Ein to get the AV system and pilot either. Perhaps it's just another thing in his pocket if he wants to discredit Gjallarhorn further?

[KaiDamien]

I have been thinking something about McGillis for quite a number of episodes: does he truly view Gaelio as a friend or just a pawn to use? He seems okay with the idea of Gaelio and Ein fighting Tekkadan just before they enter space, knowing very well that they could die. Also currently he seems to be manipulating Gaelio to let Ein go through the AV operation. Which leads me to another thinking: what if McGillis is already a AV user?

It sounds a little far fetched here, but this idea first popped into my head when he first appeared in Grimgerde where Mikazuki commented on his skills. Though the better answer would be that McGillis is just an amazing pilot. But the recent episode got me thinking again when he revealed that by letting Ein go through the AV operation, it would shock Gjallarhorn into embracing their roots that their ancestors took on the operation to end the Calamity War. It could be a powerful symbol and something that McGillis would want to use to end the corruption within Gjallarhorn.

Which then got me thinking. What if Ein had died in the battle just before Tekkadan arrive on Earth? He would definitely find another way to make use of the AV system as a symbol and would the last resort means him going through the AV operation? I doubt he would go through such a risky operation unless he already has it. But in terms of plot wise the easy answer would be that it is the will of the writers that Ein survived just for this purpose.

I gotta admit what I just typed maybe a little too far fetched, but still I can't help but think about it. On a side note, I doubt if the story can end properly in the next few episodes as there seems to be a lot of stuff to settle. Maybe there will even be a season 2 to finish everything.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by Arya

That's my point, the fact is that Orga and Mika are like that and their bond hasn't been never really explored is symptomatic of what I'm talking about.
I'm fine with it, Orga need Mika and vice-versa, period. But I can't see any character growth in it, or in other characters.

Oh there's been growth in quite a few characters, from Akihiro to Kudelia to Eugene. All of them are different from how they started in the beginning and have experienced growth through the events of the season. Orga has grown too, but in terms of Orga and Mika's relationship, you are right, there has been no change or growth to it since neither has really gone into full particulars about it other than to remind each other than it is there.

I don't think we'll see much change to that relationship, at least not until they go in depth with it.

Originally Posted by Ryuga

No idea why McGillis is so hellbent on getting Ein to get the AV system and pilot either. Perhaps it's just another thing in his pocket if he wants to discredit Gjallarhorn further?

I'm not sure why he wants him to have it, but I don sense there might be some sort of set up going on. You can't put anything past McGillis.

[krln99]

How many Gundams were in that secret base / hangar that McGillis took Gaelio down to?

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by krln99

How many Gundams were in that secret base / hangar that McGillis took Gaelio down to?

IIRC those are not Gundam Frames. I think they were Graze Frames and Valkyria Frames. Gundam Frames at this time in the show are really rare and spread around various places in the solar system that men can reach. Not to mention many of them are already destroyed and only 20+ are left.

[Arya]

* watched the episode, the show seems to be back on track *

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

Oh there's been growth in quite a few characters, from Akihiro to Kudelia to Eugene. All of them are different from how they started in the beginning and have experienced growth through the events of the season. Orga has grown too, but in terms of Orga and Mika's relationship, you are right, there has been no change or growth to it since neither has really gone into full particulars about it other than to remind each other than it is there.

I don't think we'll see much change to that relationship, at least not until they go in depth with it.

Right, I forgot about Akihiro, but I was referring mostly to the main characters.
On Orga I disagree, I don't think he grew much, in the end he always went back to the "aim high" strategy that in the end is strictly related to Mika in opposition to Biscuits (indirectly it's not that wrong to say that it was Orga's policy that killed him).

About Kudelia to me she is just a plot device. I mean, they forgot about her for 15+ episodes then they switched her on. And now whatever is needed she asks and is given. This episode emphasized it, Orga is out so who we put making plans? Yeah.
But I know I'm in the minority.



In any case, you sounded pessimistic about Orga and Mika relationship progression, but now that I watched the episode I can say taht finally they dug into it (a bit) showing its not so healthy nature.
I liked how Mika showed no mercy and didn't give Orga any slack. That's what is needed right now and it's the only way known by the kids, but it is pushing things beyond the line and that's where Merribit has to step in.
The moment Merribit and Mika met before Orga's door was symbolic of what I was saying in my previous post. The kid, the adult and Orga in the middle.
It was also consistent on Merribit part to not know what to do, she has not the intimacy to exactly knock and get into his room after all.
But Orga knows that revenge is not what Biscuits would have wanted. and Merribit knows that it is wrong too. They seems to be on the same page, but Orga has to stick with Mika no matter what, as he always did.


Now all depends if Merribit will be able to "make love" (figuratively speaking) with him or not. So yeah the door is still open for Orga to grow, it all depends on him and Merribit, and also Mika.

That's what I'm getting from this episode, Orga is bound to his childhood promise that keeps him to grow up, on the other hand is also what is keeping 'em rolling, but also leading them to die most probably. So, yeah.
But with IBO sadly is hard to say. There's always Kudelia risk factor that could step in in any moment doing something and resolve it making all of the above irrelevant.

[Skaddix]

Meh I say Orga is growth is more not sacrificing the King so to speak ie Naze being like dont be an idiot the whole house of cards falls without you around...which is true enough I mean who wants to deal with Death Knight Mika totally off the leash. The Girls (Merribit, Kudelia, Atra) have definitely tried some positive influence but it doesnt seem to have affected the Orga/MIka connection at all.

Makes you think back to older episeds where Mika was warming up and talking up Kudelia about how she did something Orga couldn't...and yet when Mika could go get a new maser so to speak, he doubles down on Orga...and they go Hell together.

i Know some thought the bromance was fraying but not the case clearly

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by Arya

* watched the episode, the show seems to be back on track *Right, I forgot about Akihiro, but I was referring mostly to the main characters.
On Orga I disagree, I don't think he grew much, in the end he always went back to the "aim high" strategy that in the end is strictly related to Mika in opposition to Biscuits (indirectly it's not that wrong to say that it was Orga's policy that killed him).

In any case, you sounded pessimistic about Orga and Mika relationship progression, but now that I watched the episode I can say taht finally they dug into it (a bit) showing its not so healthy nature.
I liked how Mika showed no mercy and didn't give Orga any slack. That's what is needed right now and it's the only way known by the kids, but it is pushing things beyond the line and that's where Merribit has to step in.
The moment Merribit and Mika met before Orga's door was symbolic of what I was saying in my previous post. The kid, the adult and Orga in the middle.
It was also consistent on Merribit part to not know what to do, she has not the intimacy to exactly knock and get into his room after all.
But Orga knows that revenge is not what Biscuits would have wanted. and Merribit knows that it is wrong too. They seems to be on the same page, but Orga has to stick with Mika no matter what, as he always did.

Now all depends if Merribit will be able to "make love" (figuratively speaking) with him or not. So yeah the door is still open for Orga to grow, it all depends on him and Merribit, and also Mika.

That's what I'm getting from this episode, Orga is bound to his childhood promise that keeps him to grow up, on the other hand is also what is keeping 'em rolling, but also leading them to die most probably. So, yeah.
But with IBO sadly is hard to say. There's always Kudelia risk factor that could step in in any moment doing something and resolve it making all of the above irrelevant.

Oh, I didn't mean to sound pessimistic about their relationship. In fact their relationship is one of my favorite things about the whole series. And in actuality, I really don't WANT it to change.

There's a reason that Mika and Orga's relationship has never changed despite who they have met along the way. Biscuit, Atra, Kudelia, Naze, Merribit, all of these people have influenced their lives and changed it, but never enough to change them from the course that their stars continue to travel in parallel. Mika and Orga are two people whose fates seem to be intertwined. They are not star-crossed, but instead continue to move in the same direction because they will not allow themselves to do anything else.

No matter how fascinated Mika is with Kudelia, it has and will never shake his loyalty and connection to Orga. And even after all this time, the one person that is always foremost in Orga mind in terms of safety and ultimate decision-making is Mika. Their relationship is the oldest of any in the series, and even if Tekkadan were to fall, Mika and Orga would still cling to each other, just as they did before. Mika has said that they are closer than brothers, and I don't think that anything anyone says, Merribit or no, is going to change that.

In fact, I think if Merribit attempt to drive a wedge between the two, it would have the opposite effect. She knows little to nothing about their relationship, and it would foolhardy and naive of her to think that she can come between that.

It's a weird and twisted symbiotic relationship that the two have, and it's one they both chose when they were very young kids. However, it has been so long and the bond has only continued to grow stronger, that I think that it's gotten to the point that neither can live without it. It's part of who they are.
I think that even if both of them were to settle down with a family, they would always be near at hand to each other, and that any relationship they have with a significant other would still pale in comparison with they one they share between them.

And I of course don't mean romantically, but I'm talking about the strength of their bond.

As for the whole revenge thing, I don't think it's actually that bad of an idea. As Mika said, it's really the same thing they've been doing, the only difference being that they won't always be on the defensive all the time. Gjallerhorn has been chasing them across space, I would be pretty tired of it too. Plus, it has now cost you one of your own. They are simply saying that they are finishing the job they set out to do, but instead of being on the defensive and waiting to get hit, they'll be prepared to give as much as they get.

Maybe it's because I'm an American and "revenge" and "vengeance" are not bad words in my vocabulary (Heck, nearly 60 percent of our action heroes are motivated by it! ), so when I hear that they want vengeance, instead of frowning, I'm more like, "Yeah! Let's get 'um!"

[Knight_SV]

it seems gaelio will suffer the same fate as garma by the hands of mcgillis

[Faux Mecha]

Originally Posted by Knight_SV

it seems gaelio will suffer the same fate as garma by the hands of mcgillis

so that he would feel guilty that he'd just sacrificed his about to be future brother in law & childhood friend?

[Arya]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

Oh, I didn't mean to sound pessimistic about their relationship. In fact their relationship is one of my favorite things about the whole series. And in actuality, I really don't WANT it to change.
There's a reason that Mika and Orga's relationship has never changed despite who they have met along the way. Biscuit, Atra, Kudelia, Naze, Merribit, all of these people have influenced their lives and changed it, but never enough to change them from the course that their stars continue to travel in parallel. Mika and Orga are two people whose fates seem to be intertwined. They are not star-crossed, but instead continue to move in the same direction because they will not allow themselves to do anything else.

ehehe, yeah, I like it too, but probably even just because I can't see any real influence (or real dynamic) between characters that I wouldn't mind it to change, for the better of course. Even just to make the other characters meaningful.

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

No matter how fascinated Mika is with Kudelia, it has and will never shake his loyalty and connection to Orga. And even after all this time, the one person that is always foremost in Orga mind in terms of safety and ultimate decision-making is Mika. Their relationship is the oldest of any in the series, and even if Tekkadan were to fall, Mika and Orga would still cling to each other, just as they did before. Mika has said that they are closer than brothers, and I don't think that anything anyone says, Merribit or no, is going to change that.
In fact, I think if Merribit attempt to drive a wedge between the two, it would have the opposite effect. She knows little to nothing about their relationship, and it would foolhardy and naive of her to think that she can come between that.

I see your point, it's just that from a storytelling point of view I'd find it fruitless.
Yeah, assuming their bond will drive them all to die would be tragic, but Id' ask, why don't aim a bit higher than that? I mean, if they all die because Mika and Orga "stubbornly" refute to change is one thing, making them all die despite a growth in their dynamic would be another, in my book. And I don't think they had problems to find a way to kill them (well, yeah, thinking twice probably that's not exactly their forte after all ) And i would ask why hire Okada in the first place if that's was the idea.
Plus, even Biscuits death would be pointless in the end.

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

It's a weird and twisted symbiotic relationship that the two have, and it's one they both chose when they were very young kids. However, it has been so long and the bond has only continued to grow stronger, that I think that it's gotten to the point that neither can live without it. It's part of who they are.
I think that even if both of them were to settle down with a family, they would always be near at hand to each other, and that any relationship they have with a significant other would still pale in comparison with they one they share between them.

Yeah, I wonder what happened, I suspect Mika killed some family figure of sort to free them or something on this vein to make them make that promise. Probably we will know the next episode.

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

And I of course don't mean romantically, but I'm talking about the strength of their bond.

Well on that front, I can't avoid to associate their promise to your typical childhood promise "I will marry you", just stuck to heavy/gritty circumstances. If I remember correctly the promise was something generic like I will bring you to a better place.
So I suspect the writers were aiming to evoke it in a manly way, of course. Guns instead of bouquets!

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

As for the whole revenge thing, I don't think it's actually that bad of an idea. As Mika said, it's really the same thing they've been doing, the only difference being that they won't always be on the defensive all the time. Gjallerhorn has been chasing them across space, I would be pretty tired of it too. Plus, it has now cost you one of your own. They are simply saying that they are finishing the job they set out to do, but instead of being on the defensive and waiting to get hit, they'll be prepared to give as much as they get.

Maybe it's because I'm an American and "revenge" and "vengeance" are not bad words in my vocabulary (Heck, nearly 60 percent of our action heroes are motivated by it! ), so when I hear that they want vengeance, instead of frowning, I'm more like, "Yeah! Let's get 'um!"

I don't mind the revenge idea, it's just that from how it has been brought up the feeling is that they are connoting it as bad.
As you said it is the same thing but also it is not. Attitude is crucial, your goal also. They are crossing a line. Merribit knows it, the chief mechanic knows it and Orga knows it. I mean, even Atra knows it. that's why I think is bad. Bad in-universe. That's what the narrative wants to say.

In any case, it's exactly because the narrative is pushing it in taht way that I do am expecting Merribit to do something and also at least accomplish something more than what Biscuits did.
Orga is the father of Tekkadan but he has always put this aspect of himself on second place to favor Mika's bond. That's why he needs to grow up, to fully take his responsibilities toward Tekkadan. That's what should have came into his mind if Mika didn't shake him and thats what Biscuits was trying to make him understand.
That's what I mean when I said that he has to become a man. So not for Merribit, but through Merribit, because she is the only adult and the only outsider of the group with a sane upbringing/view of life (in comparison with Turbine's girls), in comparison to Biscuits and Mika that are and were too close to really make or not make the difference.

But yeah, at this point I suspect it will follow the path your are depicting

[Fevvers]

Originally Posted by Arya

In any case, it's exactly because the narrative is pushing it in taht way that I do am expecting Merribit to do something and also at least accomplish something more than what Biscuits did.
Orga is the father of Tekkadan but he has always put this aspect of himself on second place to favor Mika's bond. That's why he needs to grow up, to fully take his responsibilities toward Tekkadan. That's what should have came into his mind if Mika didn't shake him and thats what Biscuits was trying to make him understand.
That's what I mean when I said that he has to become a man. So not for Merribit, but through Merribit, because she is the only adult and the only outsider of the group with a sane upbringing/view of life (in comparison with Turbine's girls), in comparison to Biscuits and Mika that are and were too close to really make or not make the difference.

Hmm.. I like that idea, that the show has been pushing for since the time the group met Naze, towards Orga. He has to become a man. And going by the scenes we've been getting (ie the lingering worried shots of Merribit and the conflict between Orga and Biscuit), this is the only way realistically to give narrative resonance to them. Let's see! Hopefully IBO doesn't disappoint!

[Yye1]

Loved the fact they are using Edmonton as the capital, as it is where I live. I am interested in whether the Japanese audience think that Edmonton is made up or that it actually exist