2009-10-13, 11:54 | Link #9081 | |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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my comment was about HollowScar statement that he keeps screwing up lulu's plans
in THAT case its not just his skill, but also the complete tech advantage he has over most enemies as for this part Quote:
his way of "improving" the lives of the japanese people first requires him to destroy the lives of all the people of many other countries he actively helps Britannia to oppress others, and calls those people who fight against this oppression criminals thats QUITE the hypocrisy from a man who claims that he doesnt want to use "wrong" means
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2009-10-13, 11:58 | Link #9082 | ||
The Dark Knight
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: From the deepest abyss in the world, where you think?
Age: 38
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2009-10-13, 12:01 | Link #9083 |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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not "selfish"
hypocritical and other then the guren, it takes a VERY long time before the black knights get something on the same level of the lancelot everyone else is stuck using burai
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2009-10-13, 12:04 | Link #9084 |
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 33
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To be a hypocrite, Suzaku would need to preach one thing and do the other at the same time.
This was the case during most of R2, but, unless I missed something, not during Zero Requiem. ...And I'm not even sure which one we're talking about. xD
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2009-10-13, 12:05 | Link #9085 |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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the final fight with kallen
suzaku goes WAY past the point of doing the wrong thing and working outside the system (actually breaking the system) and yet criticizes her for not going along with the system though thats more a case of motive decay and we were mostly talking about before zero-requiem
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2009-10-13, 12:06 | Link #9086 | ||
The Dark Knight
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: From the deepest abyss in the world, where you think?
Age: 38
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Yeesh, there's no way in heck I could've been the only guy who saw the parts where Suzaku/Lelouch kept rambling about Japan being the "world"
Everything that Suzaku rambled about was all about Japan, to him that world was "Japan". I mean how the heck could you guys get so confused over that? How can you be so shocked when it was all about Japan to begin with? Quote:
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I mean it's not that wide as a gap like the Chinese knightmares and the Black Knights. |
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2009-10-13, 12:14 | Link #9087 |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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the whole point i was making was a response to HollowScar saying that suzaku is able to destroy not all that much into it really
and its not that its all about japan its about him enslaving others, then calling people who oppose this oppression criminals
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2009-10-13, 12:16 | Link #9088 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Suzaku still believed that following the establishment was the right thing to do but since he realized it caused pain he sided with Lelouch's plan anyway despite not wanting to deep inside. Basically he acknowledged that his way of doing things wasn't working and followed a different idea but he still believed his way of doing things was the "right" thing to do.
If you notice in the final debate between Lelouch/Suzaku and Nunally/Kallen despite being allied against each other Lelouch is unknowingly agreeing with Kallen and Nunally is unknowingly agreeing with Suzaku. |
2009-10-13, 12:19 | Link #9089 |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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except that his "system" theory was based on his not wanting to use the "wrong methods"
which is exactly what he was doing at the time of the last fight how can he criticizes others for it if he behaves even worse
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2009-10-13, 16:21 | Link #9090 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
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Okay, about conquering France being 'enslavement'. In the first place, the number system has nothing to do with slavery. Slaves are property; Honourary Britannians are second-class citizens. Eleven's might be third class citizens; regardless, under the number system nobody is 'owned' by another or forced to do something they don't want to do.
Second. Please note that the number system is a system of colonization. It is a system which establishes citizen classes for territories being developed for Britannian settlement. The thing is, Britannia never tries to colonize the Chinese Federation or the EU. In fact, the conflict with France ended with a peace treaty; simply put, Britannia doesn't even have enough of a population to properly colonize the entire world in the manner of Japan. You should also note that the CF and EU have been at war with Britannia since forever. Britannia's military actions against them aren't unprovoked, it is a matter of national security. Claiming that Suzaku's participation in Britannia's worldwide military efforts is equivalent to enslavement is just bullshit. We all know that the number system was developed by Charles to pursue Geass ruins in the first place. It is designed for occupation and colonization on a smaller scale. There was never any chance of i.e. France becoming something ridiculous like Area 20 in the first place. This incredible exaggeration has gone on long enough. |
2009-10-13, 16:31 | Link #9091 | |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: europe. (the final countdooooown.)
Age: 35
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You need to distinguish the difference between before-after. Obviously Suzaku saw his methods were worse than crap in order to achieve what he wanted, because playing fair =/= getting what i want. With his fair-play, he got a lot of people killed actually, serving a rotten government like Britannia. So he did his own shit with ZR, and accepted the role of Zero. And there goes period. |
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2009-10-13, 16:36 | Link #9092 | |||
Spinning Lotus
Join Date: Jul 2008
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2009-10-13, 16:39 | Link #9093 | |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
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i was talking about his fight with kallen in which he accuses her of not going along with the system @Sol what makes you think the areas conquered in the EU dont become areas like japan did ? japan is a nation of about 100 million people, didnt stop it from being turned into just one single area and i was talking enslavement as in "forcing people to become third class citizens in their own country with the promise that if they work hard at it, they might be promoted to second class citizens like what happened to the Japanese
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2009-10-13, 16:44 | Link #9095 |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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actually it has to do with hypocrisy more then Z-R specifically
suzaku continues to preach the "go with the system" retoric while doing something completely different AT THE SAME TIME
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2009-10-13, 16:46 | Link #9096 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
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The 'wrong methods' stuff comes into play with stuff like Suzaku's initial grievance against the Black Knights. Working towards a common 'end' (saving the hostages), Suzaku had an issue with the Black Knights circumventing the establishment and using the result to stroke their own egos by posturing as 'heroes of justice'. You might note that Suzaku also had problems with Zero's 'cowardly manipulation from the shadows' (i.e. Geass), and prior to Stage 23 refused to enter a battlefield filled with hate and the intent to kill. This kind of stuff is what Suzaku's 'don't use the wrong methods' mentality refers to: Suzaku rejects self-serving behaviour and demands that one should consider the consequences that one's actions might have upon others before committing them. I.e. Blowing up a shipful of allies asking for help in order to ambush your enemy? Self-serving, underhanded bullshit, i.e. wrong methods. Cutting off one's pursuit of the enemy leader in order to save a falling civilian? Not self-serving, honourable, i.e. 'right methods'. By the time Tokyo is Fleija'd, Suzaku's hands have been too dirtied to even hope of considering himself an honourable, self-sacrificing person, so he gives up on the 'right methods' (i.e. he betrays a lord who will not promote him; betraying a 'friend' who is a lying murdering criminal was always a different matter). However, Suzaku's support for Britannia as the stronger power who can more quickly bring peace remains as it ever did. |
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2009-10-13, 16:49 | Link #9097 | |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: europe. (the final countdooooown.)
Age: 35
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eta: Sol - Um, Kallen was not talking about herself solely, and the girl actually had a point. Britannians could shit Japanese every fucking time they wanted, and no one would ever complain. Kallen was talking about the oh-so-nice-daily treatment some Japanese got, from Brtiannians bullies. /in a general concept. |
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2009-10-13, 16:50 | Link #9098 |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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@sol
your definition of peace is quite different from what most people view it its not peace between countires or peace between people its peace of the "sit down, shut up, and know your place you dog" kind which is what everyone who isnt britannian would have suffered under the peace suzaku was working for a LACK of fighting is NOT the same as peace
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2009-10-13, 17:02 | Link #9099 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
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Again, see Britannia's methods for trying to deal with the CF and EU. Peace treaties, negotiation, and political deals. Britannia has no interest in 'colonizing' everything, just in ensuring security and cooperation. The idea of enslavement, I will say again, is bullshit. |
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2009-10-13, 17:05 | Link #9100 | |||||
Spinning Lotus
Join Date: Jul 2008
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You keep going on about having a better chance and completely ignoring the piss-poor treatment anyone who isn't Britannian gets. Having a lower chance for a better gain is a good trade-off. Suzaku simply isn't willing to take that chance at the start of the series. Kallen was arguing on behalf of everyone who doesn't get a say, and that's the entire population of Japan. Suzaku is arguing from a faulty position and he knows it, which is why both times they argue, Kallen gets the last good word in and Suzaku can't counter. Quote:
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