2010-07-16, 09:12 | Link #13961 |
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^ Good point. I think there's a lot of that going on in Umineko too. There are characters inserting themselves (or inserting others) into the story/game board, while maintaining full awareness, but are pretending otherwise.
Just now it occurred to me this might be a much simpler way of describing the different levels of reality than what I put up there. All you need is this really: REALITY --- MESSAGE BOTTLE STORIES --- META WORLD --- GAME BOARD It's like a Russian doll. Or like that puzzle with the pebbles/coins and the cups from Maria's book. And the "Golden Land" exists outside of this structure entirely. |
2010-07-16, 09:56 | Link #13963 |
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Well, as I said a few posts above, I don't think 1998 is factual for the most part. The 1998 of Episode 4 is definitely a part of the "Alliance of the Golden Witch" message bottle story. The Meta-World of Featherine and Ange are part of the "Dawn of the Golden Witch" message bottle story which Ange is reading to Hachijo. And I think Ange, Amakusa, and Hachijo are also part of it, too, it's just Ange isn't aware of it because she's IN IT at that moment. Or she's creating her role in it.
We were restricted before from saying 1998 was fictional (which posed a bit of a problem, I think, with all of the magic we see in it) because the Game Board doesn't extend past those two days in 1986. The answer to that problem is the Message Bottle Stories. They're the "fictional" cup in which 1998, and the whole shebang, rests. In turn they rest inside the cup of Reality, but we haven't gotten to that one yet. |
2010-07-16, 10:13 | Link #13964 |
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So, what you are saying is the message bottle/forgeries are exactly what were are reading in our computers right?
And The Reality was something never shown to us? How about the ending rolls then? Are they part of the message bottle/forgery? Even the very first one that mentioned the message bottle for the first time? |
2010-07-16, 12:48 | Link #13965 |
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
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Referring to the topic 1 page before:
Why Erika and Bern did not think strange when Lambda used Battler's perspective rather than Erika's perspective? I think, first, Bern and Erika did not know that Battler has lost his detective status until the ??? tea party where Dlanor said he was the detective while Battler rebutted it by saying clue had been given (seeing living Kinzo). So Bern and Erika was cheated into believing Battler's perspective was objective until the end. second, it could be that only after Ep5's ??? that Erika acquired the power to move her own piece freely, after she had been promoted to "Witch of Truth". Before that, she had no autonomy otherthan following Bern's order. Since Bern was just trying to have fun and concentrating too much on incriminating Natsuhi, she did not utilize Erika completely (as she did not aim to create logic error for Lambda). Both were content with Battler's perspective. But in EP6, Erika moved herself freely and she aimed for revealing the trick behind GM's mysteries OR creating logic error (presumably not known by GM Battler). GM Battler knew this time Erika and Bern could doubt Battler's perspective such that he never arranged Shannon and Kanon together before Erika.
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2010-07-16, 13:00 | Link #13966 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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what's even more "fun" is that it was Erika's idea to separate the people in two groups. And she never thought about checking the actual number of persons. For example, she could have first made everyone gather in a single place, and then bring everyone to the second floor and divide them among two rooms.
If Battler wanted to avoid Erika from seeing both kanon and shannon at the same time, certainly he didn't really have any hard time in doing so. As a side note, realistically speaking, splitting in two groups shouldn't have been seen as a smart idea by the people involved. More importantly, abandoning the defense of the main hall to hole up in small rooms, which do not really grant any real protection is also something not very smart. But well I've seen even worse choices so far. I think the best one was Rosa in EP2 especially seen from the anime perspective. There you can see her facing a barricaded door while showing her back to several glass windows.
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2010-07-16, 13:14 | Link #13968 |
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As said, it is not like they always do the most intelligent thing all times. Also, I actually believe defending 2 rooms is more easy then the main hall. Each room has only 2 entrance, each one easy to be defended. It is also on the second floor, so it is not that easy invade through the window. The main hall, by the other side, has he main entrance, the corridor and a huge glass window in the first floor. Not the most ideal stronghold.
But, yeah, separating in two rooms is not particularly smart. In the end, rolling up in the Parlor proved to be the best idea (or hiding in Kinzo's study). |
2010-07-16, 13:37 | Link #13969 | |
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Quote:
Spoiler for Bottom to top from Ep 6:
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2010-07-16, 15:25 | Link #13970 | ||||
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Ok, since we're on two threads, maybe I should just combine the reply here.
So as Renall said already, I don't necessarily count 1998 as a 'real' world. Actually, I've been wondering what you mean by 'real.' Quote:
Quote:
And yes, Rokkenjima Prime has never been shown to us. And actually if we did get a description of the events it may not have very much value as it may not give very many clues. However, Rokkenjima Prime exists inside the mind of the Author. This Author uses that information to write the stories; stuff like "Kinzo is already dead before the game starts." Or "Kyrie and Asumu were in the same hospital." In this way, clues and ideas reach us from Rokkenjima Prime via the Author. As for the ending roll; I'm not sure they are supposed to represent anything other than the way the game was played each episode. I mean the ending roll where they list who died; because it's inaccurate to what we already know. Kinzo doesn't die on any of the twilights and Battler was still running around after the first twilight in EP6. Quote:
Reality - Rokkenjima Prime - Author <-- (Message Bottle Stories would exist here) Meta World - The Witches and the Kakera - Meta Beatrice Gameboard - Episode Rokkenjima - the Pieces Quote:
Yes, Hachijou is evil! Eeeevil! Last edited by Kylon99; 2010-07-16 at 15:41. |
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2010-07-16, 15:59 | Link #13971 | |
Endless Turnless
Join Date: Mar 2010
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Oh wow. I just realized Ryuukishi must have planned Erika a long time ago. When I happened to look that poem "Bern" had written as a extra TIPs, this rang a bell quite clearly in my mind. Emphasis mine.
Quote:
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2010-07-16, 16:00 | Link #13972 | ||
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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Quote:
It almost feels to me like it's Erika who's the one suspecting Shannon and Kanon being the same, and so she intentionally tries to keep the option open. Quote:
That is, if you believe this layer is on the top...
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2010-07-16, 16:05 | Link #13973 | ||
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Join Date: Jan 2010
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Quote:
The thing is all of Erika's evidence pointed toward unfaithfulness though so it's actually the opposite situation from this poem.
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2010-07-16, 16:26 | Link #13974 |
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Just something that occurred to me.
Does anyone think we might get a minigame in Episode 7 like the "Putting the Pieces Together" part of Matsuriybayshi-hen? Because I was thinking how there are so many little mysteries that haven't been answered, which I really have a hard time believing Ryukishi isn't going to explain, but would be very difficult to take on in an ordinary narrative. I'd really enjoy something like this, so I really hope we do. |
2010-07-16, 16:29 | Link #13975 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Quote:
As a side note, Bern was planning to exile Erika into the "worst kakera possible" or something to this effect, but in the end, does Erika get there? Doesn't look like it to me. Could it actually be a very deeply veiled ...battle suicide, I don't know?
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2010-07-16, 16:31 | Link #13976 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Quote:
Of course Matsuribayashi-hen is technically the 8th game not the 7th, if you include Himatsubushi-hen.
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2010-07-16, 16:42 | Link #13978 |
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The impression I got when I was reading was that the shot that was ultimately going to kill Erika was this red
Kanon does not exist in the guest room. .........Of course, this includes all parts of the closet, the bedroom, and the bathroom and then afterwards the final ones finished her off. But I think the guns they used were supposed to kill anyway right?
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2010-07-16, 16:46 | Link #13979 |
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Okay, I feel a bit stupid now. It was my own theory, and I didn't really understand how it worked, so I was forced to go with "Erika might not have figured out Shkanon if X" and so on. It's true that we don't know how Erika's perspective really works, but it would be nice if Ryuukishi had included some hints.
And...he actually did. I noticed this when I was translating, but then I must have forgotten about it. Look at the scene when Erika is inspecting the guest room in EP6. There's something particularly odd about it. Even though it's Erika looking at everything, she asks Dlanor each time to tell her what she discovered, and it's Dlanor who explains the situation. If you then look back on the Episode, it's always Dlanor, Gertrude, or Cornelia who confirms the status of the seals for Erika. I think this finally explains one of the biggest problems with Erika: namely, that she can see scenes that aren't shown by the Game Master. If the Game Master is allowed to include falsehoods in the story, then it isn't really fair for the players to see entire scenes without the Game Master's approval. Furthermore, since there are multiple possible stories at any given point during the game, there needs to be some way of knowing the Game Master's intent when checking things without their knowledge. In other words, you need someone who knows at least as much as the Game Master... Dlanor is the only character on Bern's side who seems to know everything about Beato's game. It also appears that she's kept some things hidden from Erika, since it seems clear that she sealed off the blue in EP6 so that Beato would have to make the grand entrance she did. If Shkanon is true, then I'd be willing to bet that Dlanor knows about it. So, in order to get information available to the detective that hasn't been shown in the narrative, the player must rely on a meta-character who knows more about the story than they do. This happened in the question arcs too, when Battler asked Virgilia to describe the crime scenes in EP3. In these cases, the detective must ask to obtain specific bits of information, so unless they ask "were Shannon and Kanon both in this room", they won't get that information. So, it's possible for things that don't directly relate to the crime to get ignored.
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