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arkhangelsk · 2009-08-08, 05:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by al103

He is locked not because of that. But because he LIKES it that way. Numbers were also programmed - but half of them decided to change path. And did. Bad upbringing is not a reason to leave dangerous* person to roam free.

*Dangerous in "will do" department, not "power" one. Full-power Hayate as my neighbor is ok. Depowered Jail on wheelchair, without henchmen and without funding is not.

To be fair, Jail did have some impressive combat capabilities himself, remember?

As for the whole "Jail is programmed" argument, well maybe, but in that case you can't really punish anyone, since everyone's actions can be expressed as being ruled by his "programming" (a mix of nature genetics and nurture environment) and by the time he actually commits his crime he is arguably already "programmed" to do so.

That's the theoretical argument of rehabiliative justice, which the TSAB does use generously. However, most people assume we actually have free will despite our upbringing and genetics (our programming). If you assume humans actually have free will, then Scarlietti MUST be responsible for what he's doing, despite his programming or whatever.

There is of course, also the pragmatic "national security" argument

Triple_R · 2009-08-08, 08:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

To be fair, Jail did have some impressive combat capabilities himself, remember?

As for the whole "Jail is programmed" argument, well maybe, but in that case you can't really punish anyone, since everyone's actions can be expressed as being ruled by his "programming" (a mix of nature genetics and nurture environment) and by the time he actually commits his crime he is arguably already "programmed" to do so.

Genuinely nice try, but I disagree. Normal human genetics being passed down through typical procreation never gives someone "unlimited desire". Something that extreme has to be artificially programmed into a person's genes, and greatly undermines their ability to self-restrain themselves. It's like a person being born alcoholic due to their mother drinking heavily while she carries the child to term - under these unique and extreme circumstances, it's not really fair, in my mind, to hold a person entirely responsible for their actions.

However, if they can't somehow fix Jail's programming, I can understand why he's not allowed to go free.

synaesthetic · 2009-08-08, 09:43

Jail is kept in... well, jail... not due to guilt or innocence, but simply because they just don't know what he'd do if he was loose.

Jail may not be completely responsible for his own actions as he was nothing but a pawn of the brains, but that hardly makes him any less dangerous or fucking scary.

Plus even though the brains created him, they didn't seem to restrict his free will at all, considering how he instructed Due to kill them--not to mention his entire plan was aimed squarely at destabilizing and subjugating the Midchildan TSAB system.

Looking at things that way... Jail's actions are his own responsibility. He isn't just a puppet of the late but not lamented TSAB High Council--much of his actions were committed of his own volition.

He's insane, definitely. Goes with the whole Mad Scientist territory. But insanity doesn't automatically equal innocence, even though a lot of liberal defense attorneys seem to think it does.

Keroko · 2009-08-10, 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Genuinely nice try, but I disagree. Normal human genetics being passed down through typical procreation never gives someone "unlimited desire". Something that extreme has to be artificially programmed into a person's genes, and greatly undermines their ability to self-restrain themselves. It's like a person being born alcoholic due to their mother drinking heavily while she carries the child to term - under these unique and extreme circumstances, it's not really fair, in my mind, to hold a person entirely responsible for their actions.

However, if they can't somehow fix Jail's programming, I can understand why he's not allowed to go free.

Unlimited Desire was a codename for Jail, nothing like that was ever programmed into him. His 'greed' was simply something that was shared among many Al Hazardians (after all, the greed for knowledge and power is what lead to their destruction). In other words, it was no fault of the brains, and thereby no excuse.

Triple_R · 2009-08-10, 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keroko

Unlimited Desire was a codename for Jail, nothing like that was ever programmed into him. His 'greed' was simply something that was shared among many Al Hazardians (after all, the greed for knowledge and power is what lead to their destruction). In other words, it was no fault of the brains, and thereby no excuse.

Thanks for the clarification. I have less problem with the treatment of Jail now because of it.

Password · 2009-08-10, 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keroko

Unlimited Desire was a codename for Jail, nothing like that was ever programmed into him. His 'greed' was simply something that was shared among many Al Hazardians (after all, the greed for knowledge and power is what lead to their destruction). In other words, it was no fault of the brains, and thereby no excuse.

Hmm... Doesn't chapter 12 of the manga have Jail mentioning that his desire "could have been something moulded into me"? I think it's more of a 'maybe' than a definite 'no'. (The name of "Unlimited Desire" does imply that one of the things he was supposed to have is massive ambition)

Keroko · 2009-08-10, 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Password

Hmm... Doesn't chapter 12 of the manga have Jail mentioning that his desire "could have been something moulded into me"? I think it's more of a 'maybe' than a definite 'no'. (The name of "Unlimited Desire" does imply that one of the things he was supposed to have is massive ambition)

Considering that dream involved the destruction of the TSAB and the death, even if that were a 'yes' we know that this is not a blame on the part of the TSAB. Supporting the opposite though, is Due, who mentions the greed in relation to Al Hazard.

Which of course opens the possibility that the 'greed' was molded into Jail's original by scientists of Al Hazard itself, and that this 'program' was merely copied along with the rest of Jail. Though this is relying on far to many maybe's.

Keroko · 2009-08-10, 18:31

It is a location. I wasn't really clear on what I meant.

Rising Dragon · 2009-08-10, 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keroko

It is a location. I wasn't really clear on what I meant.

Yeah, I figured that when I saw your clarification, so I ended up deleting my post since it was unneeded. Sorry.

Password · 2009-08-10, 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keroko

Considering that dream involved the destruction of the TSAB and the death, even if that were a 'yes' we know that this is not a blame on the part of the TSAB. Supporting the opposite though, is Due, who mentions the greed in relation to Al Hazard.

Which of course opens the possibility that the 'greed' was molded into Jail's original by scientists of Al Hazard itself, and that this 'program' was merely copied along with the rest of Jail. Though this is relying on far to many maybe's.

I was thinking something more like the TSAB moulding the desire of pursuing scientific research to its limits into him, with that leading to his dream for the destruction of the TSAB. You know, unforeseen cause and effect thing due to the TSAB high council underestimating the ambition and pride of someone given the knowledge of Al Hazard/Alhazred/'whatever its official english name is'. >>

Which, hmm, is probably what you just said <<

al103 · 2009-08-11, 04:07

Can you cut TSAB part? Brains =/= TSAB.

synaesthetic · 2009-08-11, 04:19

Uh... the brains are the Administration's High Council... why would they be cut out? They don't just control Midchilda's government.

Keroko · 2009-08-11, 04:31

Mostly because their acts concerning Jail were done without the rest of the Bureau's knowledge, much less consent. Saying that the TSAB was responsible for Jail would be like saying the TSAB was planning to freeze Hayate.

Rising Dragon · 2009-08-11, 04:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keroko

Mostly because their acts concerning Jail were done without the rest of the Bureau's knowledge, much less consent. Saying that the TSAB was responsible for Jail would be like saying the TSAB was planning to freeze Hayate.

Well if all else failed, they were certainly gonna ice the poor girl.

synaesthetic · 2009-08-11, 05:07

The Administration as a whole isn't corrupt, but Gil Graham, Regius Gaiz and the High Council show that individuals within the Administration can and will be corrupt.

Just like any other government in the history of forever.

al103 · 2009-08-11, 05:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Well if all else failed, they were certainly gonna ice the poor girl.

If all else failed Hayate would ice herself.

synaesthetic · 2009-08-11, 05:13

According to Chrono that wouldn't have worked anyway. Sealing it would just leave it conveniently somewhere another powerful shady character could find it.

Rising Dragon · 2009-08-11, 05:14

Actually, my statement was a euphemism for the TSAB killing Hayate if everything else failed. Guess it was lost on some of y'all. =X

arkhangelsk · 2009-08-11, 05:27

Don't forget the 100 million or so Japanese in the Arc radius!

Keroko · 2009-08-11, 05:29

Were they? Last I checked, nobody raised any objection to letting Nanoha fight her. They didn't pull her back and say 'let's Arc her while we can!' but let the girl fight. They were even willing to gamble everything on a plan that could just as easily have doomed them all as it could have saved them.

Heck, icing the master was never even part of the plan. Arresting the master, yes. Icing the master, no.

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2009-08-08, 09:43	Link #183
synaesthetic blinded by blood Author Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Oakland, CA Age: 39	Jail is kept in... well, jail... not due to guilt or innocence, but simply because they just don't know what he'd do if he was loose. Jail may not be completely responsible for his own actions as he was nothing but a pawn of the brains, but that hardly makes him any less dangerous or fucking scary. Plus even though the brains created him, they didn't seem to restrict his free will at all, considering how he instructed Due to kill them--not to mention his entire plan was aimed squarely at destabilizing and subjugating the Midchildan TSAB system. Looking at things that way... Jail's actions are his own responsibility. He isn't just a puppet of the late but not lamented TSAB High Council--much of his actions were committed of his own volition. He's insane, definitely. Goes with the whole Mad Scientist territory. But insanity doesn't automatically equal innocence, even though a lot of liberal defense attorneys seem to think it does. __________________ Indie science fiction author and all-around weirdo: Check out my original fiction here! Read an excerpt from my sci-fi novel Binary System!

2009-08-11, 04:07	Link #191
al103 Grumpy Russian bear Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Russia, Krasnoyarsk Age: 42	Can you cut TSAB part? Brains =/= TSAB. __________________ Proud Nanoha/Yuno/Fate, Caro/Elio/Lutecia, Alto/Sheril/Ranka and Honor/Hamish/Emily shipper. Last one even canon. PS. Also Nanoha/job, Honor/job and Rein/Agito. PPS. Proud Athrun/Cagalli/Meyrin shipper.

2009-08-11, 04:19	Link #192
synaesthetic blinded by blood Author Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Oakland, CA Age: 39	Uh... the brains are the Administration's High Council... why would they be cut out? They don't just control Midchilda's government. __________________ Indie science fiction author and all-around weirdo: Check out my original fiction here! Read an excerpt from my sci-fi novel Binary System!

2009-08-11, 05:07	Link #195
synaesthetic blinded by blood Author Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Oakland, CA Age: 39	The Administration as a whole isn't corrupt, but Gil Graham, Regius Gaiz and the High Council show that individuals within the Administration can and will be corrupt. Just like any other government in the history of forever. __________________ Indie science fiction author and all-around weirdo: Check out my original fiction here! Read an excerpt from my sci-fi novel Binary System!

2009-08-10, 18:31	Link #188
Keroko Adeptus Animus Author Join Date: Jan 2007 Age: 36	It is a location. I wasn't really clear on what I meant.

2009-08-11, 04:31	Link #193
Keroko Adeptus Animus Author Join Date: Jan 2007 Age: 36	Mostly because their acts concerning Jail were done without the rest of the Bureau's knowledge, much less consent. Saying that the TSAB was responsible for Jail would be like saying the TSAB was planning to freeze Hayate.

2009-08-11, 05:13	Link #197
synaesthetic blinded by blood Author Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Oakland, CA Age: 39	According to Chrono that wouldn't have worked anyway. Sealing it would just leave it conveniently somewhere another powerful shady character could find it. __________________ Indie science fiction author and all-around weirdo: Check out my original fiction here! Read an excerpt from my sci-fi novel Binary System!

2009-08-11, 05:14	Link #198
Rising Dragon Goat Herder Author Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	Actually, my statement was a euphemism for the TSAB killing Hayate if everything else failed. Guess it was lost on some of y'all. =X __________________

2009-08-11, 05:27	Link #199
arkhangelsk Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007	Don't forget the 100 million or so Japanese in the Arc radius!

2009-08-11, 05:29	Link #200
Keroko Adeptus Animus Author Join Date: Jan 2007 Age: 36	Were they? Last I checked, nobody raised any objection to letting Nanoha fight her. They didn't pull her back and say 'let's Arc her while we can!' but let the girl fight. They were even willing to gamble everything on a plan that could just as easily have doomed them all as it could have saved them. Heck, icing the master was never even part of the plan. Arresting the master, yes. Icing the master, no.