Gundam Build Divers - Episode 13 Discussion / Poll

[Tactics]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Sorry to burst your bubble, but if you're a super-experienced dumbass who stands stock still after hitting your opponent non-fatally, you deserve to be run through.

Sorry but that answer prove my point as well.

As my example, technically, Patrick wouldn't stand a chance against Graham on real combat but if Graham turned out doing stupid move which unlikely or Patrick luck somehow works on victories. Riku got a leeway that is Tsukasa doing such flaw, in a match that not a friendly match.

Compare to previous two protagonists, I don't really see it among good example of "New player can defeat veterans" which leave bad taste for me.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Episode 6, you mean. 5 was Mao's introduction.

Oh yeah, Episode 6. Replying while I'm working must've messed up my memory.

Now that it's made clear that my points still stand...

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Spoiler for saving space:

You know what, since this show has been really really shy about making Riku loses a fight or humiliated, I got this nagging feeling that if not for the obligatory “midseason upgrade”, Riku wouldn’t even suffer this much damage and would’ve gotten more of a straight-up win this episode and humiliated Tsukasa even more (which is saying something since Tsukasa already left crying like a bitch in this episode ).

If not in the technical department then I’m afraid Riku is OP when it comes to narrative/plot. I mean, we’re already halfway in the show and Riku has yet to receive his straight-up loss, and after this, he’ll get an even better Gunpla. By this point in the show, Reiji & Sekai already got their straight-up losses against their relative peers. Reiji already lost to Tatsuya in episode 6 of GBF while Sekai got his ass handed to him by Minato in episode 4 of GBFT. By comparison, Riku has never suffered a straight-up loss in a legit duel. Even Ogre could not claim a legit win against Riku since their fight happened during a chaotic event involving Mass Divers and Riku got caught off-guard by Ogre’s sudden aggression towards him. And in their so-called “rematch”, Ogre had to admit his Force’s loss due to certain complications.

This episode should’ve been a perfect opportunity to have Riku lost and bring him down-to-Earth especially after his big Deus Ex-Victory in the great battle against the Big Zam. Furthermore, (please correct me if I’m wrong) Tsukasa himself said the deal to return the SD kit to Ayame was only to have Riku fight him in GPD, right? Riku doesn’t have to win, right? If so, then it’s even more of a perfect opportunity for Riku to experience loss in the story.

It’s almost like the show is afraid to have Riku lost a fight for some reason. That really disappoints me as I thought by having a more down-to-Earth MC will make the fights even more exciting, compelling and less predictable than previous Build shows. Surely that’s not a farfetched or unreasonable expectation, right? Instead, we got an MC that never lost a legit duel (so far) despite supposedly being a fairly normal boy. How come the super-powered MCs of past Build series are allowed to lose (which makes for a better story) but normal-boy Riku isn’t? To add insult to injury, Riku doesn’t have much of a personality. And don’t even get me on Riku’s Deus Ex-Waifu. The only positive thing I can get out of Riku so far is that at least he doesn’t have the equivalent of the annoying Build Knuckle (I hope I don’t jinx it by saying that).

Here’s hoping things improve in the second cour. I still enjoy this series but, god, it could’ve been so much better. The amount of wasted potential in this show is just too much. It reminds me of AGE.

...I'm still waiting for such episode like GBF 6 & GBFT 4 where the Riku gets to be completely defeated with no excuses.

[charasu]

IMHO, GBFT4 vs minato cannot really counted as complete defeat :v

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by charasu

IMHO, GBFT4 vs minato cannot really counted as complete defeat :v

Yes, yes it can. Both players fought with equal SD Gundams of their choice. And Minato beat Sekai fair and square. Whether we count that as "complete" defeat depends on our own standard but it cannot be denied that Sekai straight-up lost and Minato stright-up won.

[quagmire]

Originally Posted by Tactics

I personally do not side with "everything can happened on battlefield so even veterans can be defeated by newbie" reason for this;
Even with Riku is said to have crazy good eye-to-hand-coordination that make him capable to do almost anything, the difference is still there.

Reiji and Sekai also have it too, but later Tatsuya and Minato affirming, "Sorry guys, different stage requires effort" with they showing what they're capable of.
Here Riku is dealing with someone who supposed to have better knowledge about Break Decal and capable of applying NITRO System, the gap is enough to consider Riku victory is like seeing Patrick score victory in serious match against Graham, not impossible but very hard to believe considering how visible the gap that a lose would be more understandable.

As someone else brought up, the skill difference is well established in the battle. Riku for all intents and purposes got his butt kicked and 00 Diver took the most damage.

Riku won simply because Tsukasa left an opening during his final attack that Riku was skilled enough to spot and was able to exploit it. I like others believe this should have been Riku's humbling losing moment. But this isn't Riku all of a sudden having the skills to go up with a very experienced player. Because he doesn't. Again the battle shows that. Just Tsukasa made a mistake and left an opening for a fatal blow.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Oh, look! A Magee recap!

YouTube

https://youtu.be/eH1SEJHrwpk

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

So that really marks the end of first cour. Man, I wish they could change writers or chief director in the second cour, but I know that's kinda very hard to do. So I'll just...hoping for the best but bracing for the worst.

[BoyTitan]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

To understand this, go back to the start of Gundam Build Fighters Try, and listen to Miyagi's points when he was trying to get Fumina to join his club.

GP Duel, like Gunpla Battle in GBF, is expensive for players. The Gunpla get damaged from the battles. You have to spend money and buy new parts and new models to continue playing each time the model gets damaged. For players that aren't that good, it's a huge downside to playing, and it will keep would-be rookies from playing the game, especially if they're not that wealthy.

GBN Online, however, is simply a simulation. It scans the model and you use that in-game, and win or lose you don't need to worry about the health of your Gunpla afterwards. It draws more players in, and has a bunch of advantages besides--you get to play with the full-scale machines in a larger environment, with far more options on what you can do.

Whatever business involved likely controls both GP Duel and GBN Online. As a business, they'd naturally prioritize development of the product that gets them more customers and more money.

Chances are GP Duel is still played, but it's a far more niche hobby now than it was then in GBD. Eventually the company in charge will shut down development of the less popular product to divert resources to the newer, more popular one. And the game scene will move with it, going from GP Duel tournaments to GBN Online tournaments. Audiences do the same, leaving those who don't want to migrate in the dust. Like Tsukasa was.

I see that but it should still have a bigger hardcore crowd due the realism and loss of gunpla. Like its negatives should keep a certain amount of people there due the difference in realism it brings.

[Rising Dragon]

Not if it requires a fuel source like GBF did, with Plavsky Particles. If that stops getting produced, there's nothing anyone can do. We did see the GP Duel machine generate something called a Pla-Net for operation, so it probably does require some sort of fuel source.

In more interesting news, back in episode 10's Coalition meeting we saw the protagonist of Gundam Build Divers Break among the desks. This episode, that messenger is apparently that character's rival. He did stand out quite a bit for a one-off character...

[Skye629]

Originally Posted by BoyTitan

I see that but it should still have a bigger hardcore crowd due the realism and loss of gunpla. Like its negatives should keep a certain amount of people there due the difference in realism it brings.

There definitely still is a niche playerbase for GPD

The show however does not look into this since the focus was Tsukasa's GPD group/team being torn apart with the increasing popularity of GPN and it's effects on him

[Chosen_Hero]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

To understand this, go back to the start of Gundam Build Fighters Try, and listen to Miyagi's points when he was trying to get Fumina to join his club.

GP Duel, like Gunpla Battle in GBF, is expensive for players. The Gunpla get damaged from the battles. You have to spend money and buy new parts and new models to continue playing each time the model gets damaged. For players that aren't that good, it's a huge downside to playing, and it will keep would-be rookies from playing the game, especially if they're not that wealthy.

GBN Online, however, is simply a simulation. It scans the model and you use that in-game, and win or lose you don't need to worry about the health of your Gunpla afterwards. It draws more players in, and has a bunch of advantages besides--you get to play with the full-scale machines in a larger environment, with far more options on what you can do.

Whatever business involved likely controls both GP Duel and GBN Online. As a business, they'd naturally prioritize development of the product that gets them more customers and more money.

Chances are GP Duel is still played, but it's a far more niche hobby now than it was then in GBD. Eventually the company in charge will shut down development of the less popular product to divert resources to the newer, more popular one. And the game scene will move with it, going from GP Duel tournaments to GBN Online tournaments. Audiences do the same, leaving those who don't want to migrate in the dust. Like Tsukasa was.

Just addressing the blacked out part, but, didn't we already see that in this universe they have a (probably 3d printing) machine that makes the parts for them?

Wouldn't that kind of technology be easy to come by (again, using the 3d printers in our world as an example) to the point where spending money on parts wouldn't be that much of an issue (considering you can create the parts you want), especially if you can just go into a specialized gunpla store and use theirs freely?

[Rising Dragon]

You're assuming that's a free service though. It's entirely possible that Bandai wants money for its usage outside of GBN Online, if they allow it at all. It might be free for players fiscally, but they still have to spend time playing the game and racking up points and earning parts data before they can use the injection mold. Guest Divers use rental gear to play, which means even for them it's not free. You have to spend money to get the game. You have to spend money to get a Gunpla to play the game with. Either way Bandai's getting money out of it.

Other stores using 3D printers and injection molds will likely charge for their usage too. The resources and maintenance for the machine sure as hell isn't free. Either way money has to be spent. Thinking that it's all free is laughable.

[Chosen_Hero]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

You're assuming that's a free service though. It's entirely possible that Bandai wants money for its usage outside of GBN Online, if they allow it at all. It might be free for players fiscally, but they still have to spend time playing the game and racking up points and earning parts data before they can use the injection mold. Guest Divers use rental gear to play, which means even for them it's not free. You have to spend money to get the game. You have to spend money to get a Gunpla to play the game with. Either way Bandai's getting money out of it.

Other stores using 3D printers and injection molds will likely charge for their usage too. The resources and maintenance for the machine sure as hell isn't free. Either way money has to be spent. Thinking that it's all free is laughable.

Never mentioned it being free, just assuming it was cheap since junior high schoolers can freely use said machine to create the parts they need (Momoka's Capool is basically entirely an original design) since I am pretty sure their allowance isn't anything special. That is, unless later on we find out they have jobs, get paid rewards for competing in GBN or are just stinking rich and money is of no concern, none of which has been even hinted at.

Also, using 3d printing machines as an example, I am sure that owning one of those machines isn't that difficult and there might be cheap models for the normal populace.

Cheap 3d printers: https://www.walmart.com/search/?quer...=&wl8=&veh=sem

Using those as example, it isn't that farfetched to believe that the cost of making a gunpla is not as high as you believe it be.

[Rising Dragon]

And you think that's not going to add up on the receipt quickly? They'll have to be repaired *every battle* if you don't perform flawlessly. So you do a battle, then go buy new parts/make new parts, then do a battle, go buy/make new parts, go battle... so on and so forth.

Even when it's cheap, that's going to get expensive really damn quick. Especially if it's your go-to hobby for primary enjoyment.

[Chosen_Hero]

These are people in an universe where GBN and gunpla is practically the Fortnite, CS: Go, PuBG of their society (just google how much people are willing to spend on those games alone) and as Koichi puts it in episode 14, their gunpla breaking only fuels their need to fix and improve on them, pretty sure that at this point they don't care about how much they spend as long as they get their gunpla fix.

Now imagine if a game like GBN (but better designed and with less bullshit) became the next Fortnite, how much do you think the people playing would be willing to spend on cosmetics alone? A quick google search will give you a answer.

If in our world someone is willing to spend thousands of dollars on a skin for a digital gun in a online game that is just the current fad, what do you think they would be willing to pay in a world where this one specific super popular game is so heavily integrated into their culture?

[Rising Dragon]

... and?

Your point doesn't refute my statement that it's going to turn the larger percentage of would-be players off from it.

For all of the people out there willing to waste their money on cosmetics, there's far more people who decide not to play because of companies focusing on microtransactions and such. It's the same here. For all the people willing to shell out cash to constantly repair their damaged Gunpla, there's more people who aren't willing to damage their Gunpla constantly and spend money to constantly fix it.

Furthermore, your citation on episode 14 only applies to Koichi and his group of friends. He can't speak for every GPD player in the world. Or do you think they're all so lacking in individuality that they all have the same experiences as him? Dumb, dumb argument.

Don't just ignore the cons to make your argument work. I'm not continuing this argument until you're willing to see that side of it. As it stands now you're trying to move the goalposts and it's not amusing.

[Chosen_Hero]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

... and?

Your point doesn't refute my statement that it's going to turn the larger percentage of would-be players off from it.

For all of the people out there willing to waste their money on cosmetics, there's far more people who decide not to play because of companies focusing on microtransactions and such. It's the same here. For all the people willing to shell out cash to constantly repair their damaged Gunpla, there's more people who aren't willing to damage their Gunpla constantly and spend money to constantly fix it.

Furthermore, your citation on episode 14 only applies to Koichi and his group of friends. He can't speak for every GPD player in the world. Or do you think they're all so lacking in individuality that they all have the same experiences as him? Dumb, dumb argument.

Don't just ignore the cons to make your argument work. I'm not continuing this argument until you're willing to see that side of it. As it stands now you're trying to move the goalposts and it's not amusing.

1. Yes, it will turn off players from the game, but like with everything there are a large majority willing to put up with the inconveniences just because they like the game, are having fun and can play it with their friends. Remember that those who follow gaming news are the vast minority compared to those that don't who for the most part will not care much for the things the rest of us will get mad at, that is a fact.

2. False, if anything it is the reverse, for every one (hardcore) person willing to boycott a game there are 10 (casuals) willing to play it without caring for whatever politics surround the game or what they have to pay for dlc or any additional content. Just because you find yourself in a echo chamber when you discuss this wither on sites like animesuki or reddit or comments section on IGN or Game Informer (or whatever places you frequent) does not mean you are part of the majority. If that were true CoD would not be topping the charts so consistently year after year, or that would mean that those who claim to boycott these games only say so in a reactionary way and just end up buying it anyways.

3. I don't know, if the GP Duel base (or GBN to a lesser extent) existed you would be damn sure the gunpla building community would be playing the shit out of it (I mean, it's not like it is everything they ever dreamed of or anything, right?). Would it cost a lot? Sure, nothing is free, but I think you underestimate how many in the gunpla community (or any community withing their own context) would be willing to put up to make their gunplas battle no matter the cost it takes to fix it. There will be just as many battlers as there are builder and collectors, not everyone will build a shrine to place an object and never use it.

4. And yet you can speak for every gunpla fan about wether they will or not be willing to shell out the money if GP Duel were a real thing? Now please tell me how I am adding words to your mouth, the usual animesuki response to everything.

5. I didn't ignore your argument, I gave you a different example comparing it to something that happens in the real world that could end up being a very similar situation where the cons exists and people still shell out money without a care. It is not my fault that you are unwilling to even see the matter from a different perspective than your own. At the very least I had the decency to try and make a comparison between what we have seen in the anime and things you can find in the real world. Matter of the fact is that your perspective is not the only one that exists and that there are others out there (too many to count) that would be willing to shell out as much money as necessary without a care in the world just to enjoy their hobby wether it is building, collecting or playing something, if you want to ignore that it is on you.

If you want to end it fine, but next time you argue with someone be more open minded and don't jump to the conclusion that people are ignoring you when they are not.

[Rising Dragon]

I said you weren't ignoring my argument, I'm saying you're ignoring the cons to the situation.

GP Duel is not like the other games. It's not a console game, it's not a subscription based service, it is akin to an Arcade game, forcing the player to shell out cash every single time they play, and in considerably higher amounts than any arcade game to date, since Gunpla models aren't exactly something you pick up at a dollar store. That is going to factor with the consumers far more than it does with games like Call of Duty. Yes, the Gunpla community in real life would love it, it'd keep Bandai afloat for years to come. But even that enthusiasm will die real quick when the fandom realizes just how expensive it'd get. People gotta eat and pay bills. Gunpla is neither edible nor currency.

And remember, for all of the casual fans buying games and such, companies are starting to lose money over this microtransaction shit going on in console games. Just look at Star Wars Battlefront 2: EA got in a shitload of trouble for it. That was kind of the majority speaking there, and hardly an echo chamber.

Ultimately, the company is what's going to matter here. They are going to work towards the better product that brings in more customers. In this case, GBN Online. Which means an eventual discontinuation of support for GP Duel, regardless of fan outcry. We've seen it in gaming history time and time again, where companies march on regardless of what fandoms actually like. GP Duel charges the players every time they play. GBN Online doesn't. That's going to be a far bigger draw to the majority of players than GP Duel is, so of course the company will seek to draw those potential customers in.

Sad fact of the matter is, for all your claims of me being close-minded, the reality in the show is that GP Duel is a relic of the past, no longer played by the Gunpla fandom majority. And when it comes to games, the reason for such a thing is always money, and that's the part you don't want to acknowledge.