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View Poll Results: Fate/Zero - Episode 21 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 52 | 48.60% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 37 | 34.58% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 11 | 10.28% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 5 | 4.67% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 0 | 0% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 0 | 0% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 0 | 0% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 1 | 0.93% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 0 | 0% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 1 | 0.93% | |
Voters: 107. You may not vote on this poll |
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2012-05-29, 09:29 | Link #201 |
Romanticist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 33
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Maybe inhumane is a bit much, but I think he's a lowly coward who hides his resentment and jealousy under the pretense of heroism. You just have to watch him killing Aoi to see what kind of feelings he's been hiding.
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2012-05-29, 09:56 | Link #203 | |
Casting a spell on you...
Graphic Designer
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I'm sure when he found out Aoi had *two* daughters he was very worried with his knowledge of how the society works, since he knew about her special trait about having superbabies. For him, even if he had been Aoi's husband, he couldn't escape the very real possibility that the child would be a powerhouse, and he had rejected that path to avoid being close to his rotten family. But children born with great power aren't allowed to live normal lives due to the dregs of the Association putting a Sealing Designation out and coming after them if they don't have the "protection" of an affiliated house, in order to experiment on them. So I doubt many could understand the feelings Kariya had coming into this. He wanted to take the three females away from this situation, but his fatal flaw was that he didn't understand that the girls loved even a man wedded to the rules as Tokiomi was, and that Kariya had no way to protect them afterward. You might be misunderstanding a good part of Kariya's character, although i can't blame you seeing as very important points are missing from the Tokiomi/Aoi/Kariya relationship from the anime. It's really a great conflict. |
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2012-05-29, 10:29 | Link #204 | ||
Romanticist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 33
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But don't get me wrong, his success or failure in saving Sakura is irrelevant to what I'm trying to say. It's his insistence on denial that bothers me. Quote:
It's one thing to hold off a relationship for personal reasons, but it's another thing to find out that your love will never be returned no matter what you do. Even if you say that he made a lot of sacrifices for the protection of Aoi, Rin, and Sakura, isn't his good will just another extension of his unrequited love for Aoi? Assuming that, I think this latest episode made the true nature of that love all too clear.
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2012-05-29, 10:46 | Link #205 | |
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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If we're talking ultimate and true altruism then Kariya definitely isn't that since he didn't prepare to be hated for his actions. But that's impossible and completely unreasonable for someone like him to prepare for so at most he simply prepared to not be acknowledged at all and die knowing that he did the right thing and that's the important point. The only reason he was able to keep his sanity was because he believed he was doing the right thing. But being told that you're actually a selfish person (and by the person you loved) is pretty much going to shatter the last thing you had that was keeping you sane. The fact that he killed Aoi isn't an indication of his true feelings. It was an indication of how little support his true feelings had.
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2012-05-29, 11:11 | Link #206 | ||
Romanticist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 33
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In fact, I'd turn your claim around and say that not only was he not prepared to be hated for his actions. He wanted to be loved for it. That's what I believe he wished, along with killing Tokiomi. "Saving Sakura" was just a means to an end for him, imo.
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2012-05-29, 11:32 | Link #207 | |||
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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2012-05-29, 11:38 | Link #208 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: USA
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Just want to point out, in the LN it's very clear that Kariya did not actually intend to harm Aoi (it's complicated, but he's so far-gone in his insanity that he didn't even recognize Aoi as Aoi), and once he realizes he is doing so, he instantly releases her. This is different in the anime, where it seems like he's doing it on purpose.
Well, I guess for us LN readers who liked Kariya very much, we would rush to defend him even if the anime portrays him rather poorly. |
2012-05-29, 11:42 | Link #209 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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Kariya insanity, however, is leaving him with somewhat of an addled mind. To the point were he is not recognizing thing, people, and quite possibly has some of his memories erased, and/or imprinted (both memory and emotion) from Zouken. Since Kariya is basically a puppet of Zouken at this point, just barely holding on to anything in an attempt to remain sane in his stated goal to "Save Saruka", he's not all there anymore.
The description of his point of view at his confrontation with Aoi I think makes it clear that is sense of reality is quite gone. To the point he cannot identify her nor entirely comprehend the situation...at least until he snaps back to his senses (too late). It is possible that was Zouken, since he seems to get off on that sort of thing. Which means the emotions that fueled that throttling, may not have been Kariya's at all. As this is a war and to win that war Kariya would have to kill Tokiomi (at least more than likely since killing Archer seem like it would be vastly more difficult) in order to get to the Grail that Zouken wants in order to fulfill Kariya's desire to have Saruka be free of Zouken. Killing Tokiomi was something Kariya would have to do anyway. And since he knew Tokiomi, he could at least get some focus in his addled brain on a target. Especially since he has such a hard time with Berserker. Focus is about all he could have left from what I can understand. And Berserker, unfortunately, has another focus....Saber. Zouken, on the other hand, just wants to see what happened to the Grail he remembers. So send in someone you think will get his servant killed quickly to speed up the process. But, does Zouken even remember why he wanted the Grail in the first place?
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2012-05-29, 12:37 | Link #211 | |||
Romanticist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 33
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However, I am still well convinced that the hatred he expressed towards Tokiomi reflected his genuine feelings, albeit considerably unrestricted. Or am I wrong?
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2012-05-29, 13:33 | Link #212 |
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2012
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Ah, to all sempai-tachi, the newbie here has some question to ask about Tohsaka Tokiomi.
Though Tokiomi did not say it but I think the novel stated quite clear that Tokiomi did not trust Zouken and sees this old geezer as a threat isn't it? (Chapter 14 told by Kirei) So, the question here is that if Tokiomi did not trust Zouken , why did he gave Sakura to that evil geezer? Moreover, Tokiomi claim to his self as if the Matou will protect and raise sakura to be great magi for sure. (Chapter 12) What's make he think of it that way? I think that I may miss some information or misinterpret something otherwise this will be too weird. So, can you correct me guys. |
2012-05-29, 14:26 | Link #213 | ||
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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Well I suppose we'll see. If Kariya has any sanity left in him then it's a question of what he's going to do now. Is he going to keep fighting to save Sakura or is he just going to completely break down?
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2012-05-29, 14:50 | Link #214 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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Well, Kariya's target in the war is gone. And to get full, undistracted, use out of Berserker in his effort to win the war and thus the Grail and keep his end of the deal to save Sakura....He must throw Berserker against Saber. Otherwise Berserker will go for her anyway and it serves no purpose for Kariya. So focusing on Saber is the only thing he can do now to fulfill his goal in the war.
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2012-05-29, 14:52 | Link #215 | |
Not Enough Sleep
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 48
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Old Mage = Dangerous Mage, Mages don't get Zouken's age by being nice. You would have to be a complete idiot to not be weary of a mage of Zouken's age. However it was also true that would when kariya left the Matou's, the Matous need a new Heir as the other brother and his son (shinji) has no talent as mages (almost no mage circuits).
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Last edited by Xellos-_^; 2012-05-29 at 16:19. |
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2012-05-29, 16:54 | Link #217 | |
King of Heroes
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 38
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He probably means that Zouken is just powerful as a mage; ie., in a competition in the Holy Grail War, he's just a really good opponent. Not that he's an evil demon. |
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2012-05-29, 18:00 | Link #218 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2012
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Tohsaka had no idea that the Matou's had fallen so far from their original ideals, so he still trusted them. The whole point of this is supposed to be a tragic dramatic irony. In other words, Tokiomi thought he did his daughter a great blessing, but in truth, he threw her into a fire pit. The "Tokiomi told Kirei that Zouken was dangerous" was a tactical assessment. Zouken is many times the magus Tokiomi or Kirei is. |
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2012-05-29, 20:40 | Link #219 | ||
Romanticist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 33
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That's all a matter of interpretation, though admittedly, my view is as well. Quote:
I personally think he's spent (since I can't imagine anymore ways for Urobuchi to torture his character), but he could just as easily die in a blaze of glory. Who knows? If Kariya manages to retain his goal of saving Sakura after all he's been through, I might reconsider my claims.
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