Code Geass Episode 20 Discussion / Poll

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by wuabel

I think this episode is a bit too hasty...
I hope they will slow down the pace a bit, I don't want another GSD ending all over again -.-

I quite like the character development of Lulu, Suzaku and Euphie...so far they are reasonable realistic.
If only they let the events take some time to sink in, the episode would deliever more impacts.

You had people complaining that the pacing is too slow... And now we have people complaining that the pacing is too rushed.

My, Sunrise just can't please anyone these days can they?

Enough with the GSD references, that was due to incomplete scripts. The script for the first season of Code Geass was completed long ago; there is nothing to rush. Even the two recap episodes would be replaced by two extra final episodes that will be screened at a separate date.
The production team is already apologizing in advance for all the mean things they are going to be doing to the characters before the season's out. I won't be surprised if even the storyboards are done too.

[JediNight]

From a Chinese Federation perspective, the taking of Japan by Britannia is a real threat to them. It allows Britannia a staging point right next to their borders. So if China can help Japan retake their country, or take it over themselves, then it prevents Britannia from having that strategic advantage.

And yeah, I think if people think not a lot happened in this episode, then they aren't looking at the big picture. And maybe they don't have enough life-experience to grasp all the repercussions of it *shrug*

I think that, given the fact that Euphie was extremely coddled and sheltered growing up, it is understandable if she has little experience in dating or love. So we could give that talk with Nina the benefit of the doubt. And yeah, they went with the cliche "gonna die soon, might as well confess" routine *shrug*

And whats wrong with a little cheesecake every once in awhile as far as the dual attack goes? =D

I watched a special about the original Starwars movies filming latenight on TV a few weeks ago, and they said basically this: Theres some stuff that can only be written, but sounds hokey as hell in real life (aka for a book, play, movie etc) =) Specifically the scene where Leia tells Tarkin that "I thought you were here, I could smell your foul stench when I got onboard"

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

You had people complaining that the pacing is too slow... And now we have people complaining that the pacing is too rushed.

My, Sunrise just can't please anyone these days can they?

It means they are doing something right. One side complains its too slow, the other its too fast so it balances itself out.

[Sotobrastos]

...the mean things? So long as it only involves Suzaku, I'd be happy, but Kallen...!

I'm actually hoping for Lelouch being captured, and getting his eyes torn out. Blind protagonist tragic hero ftw.

[saner]

For me Suzaku is just a traitor, because he helps invaders. He thinks that just one soldier can change the whole empire and help to resurrect Japan. Therefore he is very naive. He doesn't take into account that many Japanese suffer and die every day, because of his position.

Basically, he doesn't have a reason to fight. Every memeber of Lelouch's organisation has a reason to fight against Empire and to free Japan, eg:
Lelouch - muder of his mother.
Kallen - she knows humiliation of the Japanese.

He keeps talking that fighting against Empire is wrong, because he just thinks that the fight against Britania is meaningless and they should wait. But how many Japanese will die until the right time comes. He is self-satisfied.

I think that most of You live in USA and GB so you don't know much about occupation. I live in Poland and this country was occupied countless times by Russia and Germany. Always when Poland was occupied there were two fractions, the first cooperated with invader in hope to gain more freedom for Poles, the second wanted to fight and to defeat invader and ressurection of Poland. Always the second fraction was right, cooperation with invaders was meaningless, they didn't treat Poles on equal rights. There are a lot of books about this part of history of Poland, I hope you will read a bit about Poland's history.

Here you have some links to articles you should read:
Partitions of Poland - You must read it.
About Kościuszko, one of the gratest hero of Poland. He is a bit like Lelouch.
Kościuszko Uprising

I know that I take this anime too serious but situation of Poland during Poland's Partions is very simmilar to situation of Japan in this anime. For me Suzaku's actions are incomprehensible.

[DJ_RockmanX]

A traitor is a traitor is a traitor. Finally, someone that makes sense.

On another note, this episode reeks of cheese, and for all the wrong reasons.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Basically, he doesn't have a reason to fight. Every memeber of Lelouch's organisation has a reason to fight against Empire and to free Japan, eg:
Lelouch - muder of his mother.
Kallen - she knows humiliation of the Japanese.

What about Diethardt and Laksharta?

He keeps talking that fighting against Empire is wrong, because he just thinks that the fight against Britania is meaningless and they should wait. But how many Japanese will die until the right time comes. He is self-satisfied.

I know he said the fighting is wrong but he never said wait. That's what the other Black Order knights are going for in which Lelouch reminds them that nothing will happen if they do nothing.

I think that most of You live in USA and GB so you don't know much about occupation. I live in Poland and this country was occupied countless times by Russia and Germany. Always when Poland was occupied there were two fractions, the first cooperated with invader in hope to gain more freedom for Poles, the second wanted to fight and to defeat invader and ressurection of Poland. Always the second fraction was right, cooperation with invaders was meaningless, they didn't treat Poles on equal rights. There are a lot of books about this part of history of Poland, I hope you will read a bit about Poland's history.

Here you have some links to articles you should read:
Partitions of Poland - You must read it.
About Kościuszko, one of the gratest hero of Poland. He is a bit like Lelouch.
Kościuszko Uprising

I know that I take this anime too serious but situation of Poland during Poland's Partions is very simmilar to situation of Japan in this anime. For me Suzaku's actions are incomprehensible.

Yes you are taking this seriously. The irony of the situation now that you mention it is that Japan invaded and brutally occupied several asian nations up to and after WWII.

In the Code Geass world we know Japan isn't any better than Britannia was and oppressed other nations through economics (Sure it's not conquering but that's still pretty bad IMO, especially on underdeveloped nations) and other shady deals. Judging from what Lelouch talked with Kirhihia, they had other things going in the back as well.

In the end though when you look at it, Suzaku is really just there to serve as Lelouch's opposite.

[Nvis]

I'm more interested to know what will happen when Lelouch meets Shirley face, to beautiful face?

And if Suzaku actually reported to Britannia about Kallen's involvement in the OoBK. Kallen seems to be afraid to go back to her house & school, but in this episode it seems that everyone(council members) think that Kallen's just sick in the hospital, maybe meaning that Suzaku kept her identity a secret?

[saner]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

In the end though when you look at it, Suzaku is really just there to serve as Lelouch's opposite.

I hope you are right and he won't get more and more screen time. I hate him.

[Renegade334]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

What about Diethardt and Laksharta?

Laksharta is Indian and Inoue-san (the only girl in Ougi's ragtag group), at the beginning of ep18, mused that if the submarine the Black Knights were in were to be discovered, "it would be troublesome for the Indians."

...Which suggests that there might be a resistance group there, too (I expect there is for each conquered Area). And, you know the saying, 'the enemy of my enemy is my ally'. Geopolitics helping, there might be an agreement between Indians and Japanese - probably for either side to create a chain of reaction throughout all colonies - like a spark that lights the proverbial powder keg ablaze. A signal to rebel against the occupier. Just sort of like the American Independence War remotely inspired the French revolution (it just inspired the mood and the idea, nothing much).

Moreover, I have several reasons to believe that she was a scientist recruited by the Ashford Foundation and who might have grown bitter towards Britannia after the company was shut down. So...concern for her compatriots might not be the only thing motivating her.


As for Diethard, I'm sorry but, to me, it doesn't look like he's fighting.
He's merely helping Zero.
And I said Zero, not Japan, not India, not Middle East or Area number whatsits. Z-E-R-O. His only concern is to see the man, who will eventually change the face of the world (or so he believes), succeed in brewing what he, Diethard, foresees to be an earth-shattering political and mediatic whirlwind...and in the long run, rise to the top of the world as some sort of super-leader. Of course, his fascination and dedication to his own job and passion (journalism) might also spark some genuine admiration and devotion to Zero...I don't entirely see him as an opportunistic. Merely someone who saw a Messiah of a dark but flamboyant kind right in front of his eyes. As seen in ep19, while the BKs are more concerned about the group's survival - and that of their ideals - Diethard proved that his worries revolved especially around Zero.

So, I must say insist, Diethard is not fighting.
He's assisting Zero. Helping the changes of History.

You can't even call him a mercenary, don't you think so? Merely someone with converging/remotely common/parallel (yep, an antithesis to 'converging'...go on, slap me...D: ) interests.

[Azure22]

This episode felt far too "one-shot"-ish to me, just because it took off on an entirely different storyline than what we've been building up with. In order for an episode like this to work after the last one, I think it would've been better if Suzaku had been in some form of penitentiary for the first part of the episode. Then things could have gotten bad for the Britanians, and he could convince them to let him out so he could pilot. And he could've had a conversation with Euphie in there too, to build up to her announcement mid-battle. It would've been a busy and fast-paced episode, rather than one that felt stand-alone from the rest of the plot. The disjointed feeling is my main problem with the past few episodes, quite frankly, though this is the worst thus far.

I know he said the fighting is wrong but he never said wait. That's what the other Black Order knights are going for in which Lelouch reminds them that nothing will happen if they do nothing.

Suzaku doesn't want any fighting to happen, I don't think. He thinks that going along with the Britanians is going to get the Japanese equal rights eventually. In this sense, he's just as idealistic as Lelouch. To think that something can be achieved without causing some sort of conflict is foolish, whether or not the conflict is violent. Sort of like the civil rights movement. If we think of it that way, Lelouch really seems less delusional, considering he's at least instigating a conflict. It's easy for Suzaku to say results achieved through the wrong methods are worthless, but methods that don't yield results are an even greater waste of time.

[FlareKnight]

It's entirely possible Suzaku has been busy dealing with his personal issues (being arrested) more than dealing with Kallen. Besides as he probably sees it, he has no clear evidence about it. Plus he knows what happens to arrested terrorists and doesn't want that for her. At least that's how I see it.

I had thought we had gotten past pointing a finger and crying "traitor!" It's not that Suzaku doesn't have reasons to fight. He's seen what happened to his countrymen, what Lelouch and Nunally have had to deal with, and probably his own treatment as he tried to rise up the ranks. We already know the reasons why Suzaku doesn't want to fight in a rebellion so we can leave that.

How Shirley will approach Lelouch should be interesting. For all he knows the issue of Shirley is all over with, but with that note things aren't so simple.

[SinsI]

...or the police is not so eager to announce "Kallen is part of OOtBK" to the world. They might be waiting to tail her and capture the whole gang in one go.

[Azure22]

...or the police is not so eager to announce "Kallen is part of OOtBK" to the world. They might be waiting to tail her and capture the whole gang in one go.

I was pretty sure she wasn't leaving the order of the black knights sub, though... I doubt she's been out and about much.

[Renegade334]

And it also happens that there is no proof whatsoever against her. No incriminating piece of hard evidence, except the word of an Honorary Britannian (against afull Britannian - or so we are led to believe) who happens to have been - repeatedly - in trouble with the authorities despite his promotion to the title of Imperial Knight.

Suzaku saying, "oh, I have the identity of a BK - it's one of my classmates, btw" might sound a tad odd knowing that, right then, he was sort of in a pinch with his superiors. Some might even advance the cavil that it was a poor ploy to get the steam off him and onto someone who is, after all, the daughter of a wealthy Britannian family.

Not to mention that the way I see Suzaku, I don't think he'd sell her to Britannia unless he bodily drags her and drops her in front of a Britannian officer. Unless he catches her red-handed and manages to keep her handcuffed till her physical entry in the jailhouse, I'm not sure he'll pull a Judas on her.

Furthermore, it might very well bring the Student Council's (as well as most of the other students') wrath upon him. Since Kallen did a good job portraying a frail student, Suzaku's claims would sound very hollow. And dozens of voices (including the children of possibly prominent/influential families) would rise against his accusations, easily destroying the saplings of comradeship budding between him and the Ashford student body. One could readily see it as backstabbing or betraying benevolent comrades.


And, besides, Kallen probably didn't make a short trip back home to see if there wasn't a warrant against her. She's probably under the belief that they're looking for her...while in reality they're not. One never knows...besides, Suzaku had other things in his mind lately...so a few things might have taken flight out of his brain's window.

[Juvyniled]

Originally Posted by Renegade334

And it also happens that there is no proof whatsoever against her. No incriminating piece of hard evidence, except the word of an Honorary Britannian (against afull Britannian - or so we are led to believe) who happens to have been - repeatedly - in trouble with the authorities despite his promotion to the title of Imperial Knight.

Do mine own eyes deceive me or did not a royal Britannian princess bear witness to the bonnie haired lass? Both Suzaku and Euphemia are not cruel monsters; they won't accuse Kallen simply because she is the enemy.

Originally Posted by random_passerby

A traitor is a traitor is a traitor. Finally, someone that makes sense.

This quote really exemplifies one of two things:
1) People view the forces of good and bad as Lelouch's Order and the empire, respectively.
2) Treachery goes both ways. Unless he deceives everyone he is only a traitor to those who view him as such (hence, the rebels).

Originally Posted by saner

Basically, he doesn't have a reason to fight. Every memeber of Lelouch's organisation has a reason to fight against Empire and to free Japan, eg:
Lelouch - muder of his mother.
Kallen - she knows humiliation of the Japanese.

Granted, Kallen has solidified her desire to bring down the empire AND free Japan. But Lelouch does not have any reason to do the latter... unless of course you could provide me with one? Look at his order: it is no longer solely Japanese, and I have doubts about whether all of those other Britannian members are willing to "free" Japan. Lelouch will ride his Order to as far as it takes him (though he can just Geass everyone and be done with, but that wouldn't constitute a plot).

I think that most of You live in USA and GB so you don't know much about occupation. I live in Poland and this country was occupied countless times by Russia and Germany.

We do in fact learn about how other countries and nations are occupied by the nations with more power. It is simply that we don't respond to it the way people who ARE in fact being occupied do. Let me ask you this: are you that old that you have lived through the occupation yourself? If so, I will go no further to criticize you about it. It's true, the US and UK have truly never been "occupied", and therefore, we don't know the effect it has on people. But we have learned about it.

He keeps talking that fighting against Empire is wrong, because he just thinks that the fight against Britania is meaningless and they should wait. But how many Japanese will die until the right time comes. He is self-satisfied.

I don't know whether he believes the Japanese could succeed or not, but he knows one thing and we all know it (whether we choose to acknowledge it or not): there is no godly Kira here to end all the fighting with a single blast of his multi-beam cannons. Each of these characters and all the other people within the Geass reality have their respective strengths and weaknesses. Getting back on track, Suzaku knows that if fighting continues more and more people will be caught in the conflict (both indirectly and directly). His character is not one that can be analyzed simply by considering what he does and what he says; he's a complex character. Lelouch is complex as well, but we are allowed to hear his thoughts, so the 'surface' of his actions can be translated as "good" or "right".

Originally Posted by Renegade334

Furthermore, it might very well bring the Student Council's (as well as most of the other students') wrath upon him. Since Kallen did a good job portraying a frail student, Suzaku's claims would sound very hollow. And dozens of voices (including the children of possibly prominent/influential families) would rise against his accusations, easily destroying the saplings of comradeship budding between him and the Ashford student body. One could readily see it as backstabbing or betraying benevolent comrades.

Three possibilities I see in the resulting episodes (maybe four):
1) Suzaku does not attend school any more
2) Kallen does not attend school
3) They still continue to attend, and each tends to their own self while carefully observing the other (lots o' tension)
*4) Neither attend school (in any case, the other students have pointed out that Lelouch and Kallen always seem to be absent, and Suzaku is always gone with the military)

[Deathkillz]

suzaku isnt the type to go snitch to the authorities about stuff like this...most likely he would try to persuade kallen into giving herself in rather than by force...but if he does use force then ive totally misjudged him ~
kallen did mention that she shouldnt go back to school cause of suzaku knowing her identity...maybe shes going to stay with the knights in the base :3

[Juvyniled]

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

most likely he would try to persuade kallen into giving herself in rather than by force...but if he does use force then ive totally misjudged him ~

If he does in fact turn to violence, it'll have to be a result of something rather serious (ie, Euphemia's death), otherwise his character would just have been trashed by the directors.

[SinsI]

And it also happens that there is no proof whatsoever against her. No incriminating piece of hard evidence, except the word of an Honorary Britannian (against afull Britannian - or so we are led to believe) who happens to have been - repeatedly - in trouble with the authorities despite his promotion to the title of Imperial Knight.

It's not the first time I read that "there's no proof" and "nothing except for the word of an Honarary Britannian".
What do you take Britannia for? It's not a republic, not a democracy, it's not a constitutional monarchy either. It's military dictatorship, absolute monarchy! And in a state of WAR to boot!
One word from Clovis - and thousands of elevens were butchered.
Kallen may enjoy some protection from being arrested and tortured like Suzaku was since she is a Brittanian and a daughter of a relatively important man, but it's the same thing as was with Lelouch - one word of suspicion is enough to blow her cover away.

[tritoch]

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

suzaku isnt the type to go snitch to the authorities about stuff like this...most likely he would try to persuade kallen into giving herself in rather than by force...but if he does use force then ive totally misjudged him ~
kallen did mention that she shouldnt go back to school cause of suzaku knowing her identity...maybe shes going to stay with the knights in the base :3

Suzaku wasn't the only one who saw Kallen. And a question that has been bugging me.. Why wasn't the Gawain password protected like the knightframe Lulu took in the first ep?