[Summer 2017] Nanoha The MOVIE 3rd

[4th Dimension]

Frankly my biggest problem with Movie 2nd (apart from actually not liking the finale fight scene which I found stupid but not in the good way) is that the fight scenes are few but eat a LOT of screen time, which is why one of biggest Nanoha's hero moments (when she fires the SLB so save everybody despite being drained) has been obliterated. Instead they all get trashed in the intro.

And I kinda liked the Graham subplot from A's. Not so much the Masked Men bit but how it put the entire incident in context. BoD is such a big problem that it drove a person EVERYONE considered a paragon of what TSAB Admiral should be to EXTREME measures. Plus the subplot that deals with its fallout is one of the best ones in GoD even though it takes a bit time to get to the conclusion.

[Akiyoshi]

The fight against Reinforce was pretty long indeed. My beef is that after their introductory fight the Wolkenritter was shafted hard in the movie. The middle season fight was reduced enormously and the impressive desert battle replaced by a very short 20 second skirmish (movie schlagenform Laevatein was pretty, sweet, though, sadly it was a blink and you miss it moment).

Speaking of which. I missed Schlagenform in Reflection. Hopefully Detonation brings it back.

[4th Dimension]

Well, my problem is not that it was long (well it's a problem that it ate into the character stuff, but I'm fine with long stuff explodes stuff), so much that it was made more "awesome" in the direction I didn't like. I didn't give an F about the stupid pile of snakes of the Defence System. And I especially didn't care for the stupid hand crossbow that Reinforce uses which is made worse by the commentary mentioning that this was supposedly main infantry weapon of the Belkans... which is once again doing the Vivid thing and making spaceship building Belkans into a bunch of techno-barbarians. And the drill bit which some found amazing I think stupid beyond belief. But again I have very specific ideas on how fighting spells and such should have been done, which is mostly informed by up to and including StrikerS content.

Other than that, if we took the battle out of the context, they were pretty damn well done, which is not much to say TBH considering we are comparing them with A's which was made like a decade or more before with much less of a budget.

But again the real issue is that fights tended to balloon their run time because they had higher production values and wanted to add more involved and fancy fights. What would have been just contrails in the sky slamming about in A's, now is a full motion animation that takes time and effort to show every swing of weapon and such.
Which all caused for the story to be radically redesigned to the point that I don't think it's telling the same story, but more a retelling/reimagining, unlike Movie 1st which while having problems of it's own is telling a recognizable TOS story.
Also this causes as you noted for the after the upgrade fights to be a bit meh because they are running out of time by then and need to set up for the big overblown finale that actually ADDS fight scenes by expending the fight with the activated form.

Plus as I said, I fucking hated how the re imagining of the initial fight nixed some of the best moments for Nanoha and even Yuuno (but then again that was normal by that time) and reduced a fight that kinda showed that Wolks were far from unstoppable into another jobbing in front of new "superior" opponent fight which is boring.

[DragonXX]

Originally Posted by 4th Dimension

Frankly my biggest problem with Movie 2nd (apart from actually not liking the finale fight scene which I found stupid but not in the good way) is that the fight scenes are few but eat a LOT of screen time, which is why one of biggest Nanoha's hero moments (when she fires the SLB so save everybody despite being drained) has been obliterated. Instead they all get trashed in the intro.

And I kinda liked the Graham subplot from A's. Not so much the Masked Men bit but how it put the entire incident in context. BoD is such a big problem that it drove a person EVERYONE considered a paragon of what TSAB Admiral should be to EXTREME measures. Plus the subplot that deals with its fallout is one of the best ones in GoD even though it takes a bit time to get to the conclusion.

You do know they have an excuse in series why the second movie didn't have the the Graham sub-plot . Remember that the first and second movie are real movie in Midchilda in the Nanoha's Force timeline. There no way the TSAB will let the people know that the BoD mess had to do which one of there higher-up. The movies are propaganda to made the TSAB look good.

[4th Dimension]

Originally Posted by DragonXX

You do know they have an excuse in series why the second movie didn't have the the Graham sub-plot . Remember that the first and second movie are real movie in Midchilda in the Nanoha's Force timeline. There no way the TSAB will let the people know that the BoD mess had to do which one of there higher-up. The movies are propaganda to made the TSAB look good.

Ehh, I never really took that seriously, especially in light of "just some mom" Nanoha in Vivid, but then again my PERSONAL oppinion on Vivid vis a vis cannonicity is non-canon unless it fits previous stuff.

But leaving that aside, it's a MUCH weaker story than A's that really only has visuals to go for it. As such it's not really a good summary of A's even IMO except on most superficial input output level. (not that that has stopped people claim to me that Movies are new cannon and should be considered to be overwriting the old canon, and my oppinion on that is NO WAAY)

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by 4th Dimension

another jobbing in front of new "superior" opponent fight which is boring.

Tsuzuki's obsession with one sided fights needs to take a break.

[4th Dimension]

Well, it's not just him. It's a general fiction thing for less adept writers. Just have the heroes be trashed by the bigger bad to cheaply ratchet up the stakes, and then introduce a thingimajig to magically even the odds.

The beauty of A's was that while Wolks certainly had the skills to challenge and defeat the protagonists* their main advantage in that fight was a technological gimmick that had a timer on it and they had limited amounts of it, so you could show that the protagonists are still good enough to match them UNTIL cartridges get involved. And that despite being over matched the protagonists can still pull through, rather than be trash canned.

* and if we are honest, given how much expirience they should have had they should have wiped them even without the cartriges, not through POWWWWWAAAAAAAHH but better skill. But that would have not been as enjoyable experience for me.

[Akiyoshi]

It's a mixmatch for me. I liked that they show that while they became a match for the Wolks after the cartridge upgrade the Wolks were still consistently depicted as the more experienced warriors after A's which makes total sense given their status as centuries old war veterans. On one side Nanoha's tactical genius and heavy power fightstyle gave her an edge over Vita's tendencies while on the other Fate's finesse and speed were a more undecided match against Signum's seasoned solid skills and they kept clashing after A's. The Wolks remain pretty much the same towards StrikerS signifying their combat style was deemed effective for almost a decade. Reflections went out of it's way to show the TSAB wanted them to change and get new gadgets ASAP. I felt a little uncomfortable with that.

[Archon_Wing]

Well cramming A's into one movie was never going to be a thing, and certainly not going to be a replacement. It's possible for season 1 since the first bit was slow paced but A's generally had very little wasted time.

[lyrical dark mage]

Spoiler for Reflection:

Well seeing as this thread has been dead for a whIle I am gonna TRY to bring it back to life by opening up a discussion here with a simple question: What are you expecting to see (or wish to see) in detonation?

Personally I think they'd show a bit of Iris and Yuri's past and what exactly happened between the two of them that would make iris hate her so much since from what I heard it was very lightly touched upon with not much explanation other than she killed Iris's family I think? I am also expecting more of the materials and most likely Kyrie joining forces with our favorite trio after Iris's betrayal as I like to call it, when it comes to iris I am wondering if they'll go with her not changing her motives or will she turn good which knowing the series' history wouldn't be out of the question although I kinda do want them to go with the villain route. My guess on the whole Iris and Yuri is that Yuri was Iris's friend when she was a human but after she turned into....whatever she is in reflection since I don't think she's the "unbreakable darkness" like in the portable continuity, point is during that time Yuri most likely lost control of her power and accidentally killed Iris's family, then again this is just a guess from someone who hasn't even watched the movie yet, for all I know in this version maybe yuri wasn't even a human to begin with, one thing I hope though is that they won't make the final battle take more screen time then it should, what do you guys think?

[4th Dimension]

Khm Khm. You might want to spoiler tag that since the BD is not yet out. It's out tomorrow and some people might not like to know what you just posted here into the open...

[Hiss13]

Originally Posted by 4th Dimension

Khm Khm. You might want to spoiler tag that since the BD is not yet out. It's out tomorrow and some people might not like to know what you just posted here into the open...

Actually it came out today.

Source: My BD box came in the mail this morning while I was in class~

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[lyrical dark mage]

It still hasn't come online though, anyway I already put the spoiler tag

[lyrical dark mage]

Anyway my question is what do you expect from Detonation?

[4th Dimension]

Reflection is now available on the "TOTALLY LEGAL" place although the subs are in SUP file which is only supported by Media Player classic. And the download is on the big side.

Subs themselves aren't stellar either, although they aren't constantly bad like this, these are just some examples:

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Now that I have seen it I'm okay with it. I still think GoD is kinda better, although that has it's own advantages and disadvantages inherent in the format.

So now you know that I'm a big fan of the GoD story. Additionally I'm a big proponent of magic > "metal"[1][2]. So naturally I'm not the greatest fan of the "metal" apparent superiority shown in this.
Oh and add a massive Hayate fanboy to that too.

Spoiler for In more spoiled detail about that and other things:

Basically Iris, can HACK (somehow) the spells so that she can cancel magic. Basically it's Eclipse without the angsty bits. Plus she also is able to reconfigure a bunch of Earth machines with weapons on the fly to create mechs. And combined with Iris's hacks this makes them often invunerable to magic of normal variety. Later they get basically what looks similar to Force strike cannon upgrades, which IMO look too bulky. So for the first half of the movie the protagonist are getting ensnared in steel cables and like.

Also Iris can almost casually hack the BoD (yes, here it's the original book just minus the bits Reinforce took with herself[3]) and access parts that even Hayate doesn't know about to summon the not!Materials. They are never called Materials, but are some kind of lords from the past or something into which for SOME reason Iris and Kyrie upload the Aces data.

Also it's never really explained what makes the Formula Suit better, and what makes it less susceptible to Iris shenanigans and even Yuri shenanigans in the end.
This is in contrast with A's where the reasons for Wolk apparent superiority was explained right after the fight. I fear this explanation.

In any case the movie opens with the bit on Eltoria, then moves to show the Aces training and showing off for their friends, except it's Nanoha and Fate sparring and Hayate being just there...doing nothing. SHAME. The fight happens in the same looking terrain as Movie 1st final Nanoha/Fate fight, but it's a LOT less choreographed IMO. And it's kinda unconnected? I think it's supposed to show snippets of a lager fight, but that's just makes things confusing when at one moment they are locking blades, and next they are firing shooters at each other from range.

Some cutesiness at the Park and later we switch to Kyrie and Iris (in form of a tablet) arriving. Since they are using inferior transfer tehniques they SLAM into the ground making a veritable crater. It kinda reminded me of Terminator arriving in the past. Complete with Iris making Kyrie new clothes. High school girl uniform OF COURSE.

Iris has apparently been monitoring or has been somehow gaining info on the Aces SOMEHOW, since they want to steal Hayate's Tome.

The first actual fight is Hayate getting trashed by a bunch of landscaping machinery with miniguns and like because Iris is there and she soon robs her magic of effectiveness. Really. At one point Hayate summons a mana blade and tries cutting the steel cables wrapping her and is not able to make a dent. Also the only reason she WAS ensnared was that she CLOSED the distance like a dolt, allowing Iris to crack her magic code and the cables to actually reach her. Lady get some GOD DAMNED DISTANCE. You are an almost pure ranged NUKER. IN any case just as Iris is about to get the book, Hayate gets rescued by Amita. Who also knows them all since she read Kyrie's files on them apparently. Also Amita is for some reason ALSO in a high school uniform. I guess her and Iris's minds work alike?

What follows is a prolonged fight vs Kyrie. But first got to Warf effect Arf and Zafira. Zafira will have his moments, but Arf never leaves her chibi child mode. Zafira is in his humanoid mode for the fights, which is nice. On the other hand when he is brought to Chrono's office in Tokyo Arf leads him there on a leash...
In any case they run after where Kyrie might be and Kyrie swoops down in a HELICOPTER, fires MISSILES at them which hit them (Arf was riding on Zafira's back...for reasons) and when the smoke clears they are ensnared in steel cables... what? I guess explosions work different on Eltoria?

What follows is a prolonged fight with Kyrie vs Fate and Nanoha[4] (Iris sent her to take them out). First off a cool bit. Nanoha immobilizes Kyrie's column of vehicles by binding their wheels and the wheel of Kyrie's bike (yes bikes despite being able to fly).
But then the binds stop being useful against Kyrie, and so do spells. Nanoha turns the tables at one point by using the same cables Kyrie ensnared her in to make Kyrie eat pavement. That was cool and as expected of Nanoha.

In the end she gets encased in ice courtesy of Hayate and others including Amita. But then she pulls another fancy mode from out of her butt, courtesy of Iris which makes her super fast among other reasons. And for some reason Fate can't even try to keep up with her? For reasons? Yeah, that was BS. In any case it turns one more Florians scream at each other while others are useless and powerless vs Kyrie for reasons. This is kinda the lowpoint. If they were allone this might have worked better, but having them do it in front of the rest who just mostly watch... is silly. In the end everyone gets knocked out, and to make matters worse she even SHOOTS REIN, YOU MONSTER who was trying to protect Hayate's Swordcross pendant in which the book was.

In any case not!"Material" summoning happens, pages are torn and destroyed of the book.

There is a bit of a downtime between this and the fight at the amusement park. It's nice but maybe a bit short.
Basically this is used to upgrade the rest of the team with the fruits of R&D Hayate, Mariel and Shario with the weapon manufacturer from Force.

IN any case the Alliston Sea fight happens. Materials summon? each one GAINT mech to "fight for them", mostly there to occupy the Wolks while Nanoha and Fate face off against Stern and Levi. Hayate meanwhile faces off against Dearche far away.

First off, while Hayate doesn't get defeated in her fight, she is in a CONSIDERABLY worse state, even though she manages to nuke Dearche's silly flying mech. And is pretty much on the defensive the entire fight. Soo, it was not a nice show off of how better Hayate has gotten.

Fate/Levi is nice, with Levi being her usual Blood Knight, although here she has less reason for it, unlike in GoD. Also it is used for the expected Testarossa angst moment for Fate to call Lindy mother for the first time.
Nanoha/Stern is a bit better. Although the final breaker exchange and then plowing THROUGH the beam to coldsock Stern was a bit too silly. Also other NO GTFO-ing as soon as those two lunatics started charging Breakers at point blank range.

Yuuno is apparently able to save parts of the park, but i don't know how much given the ridiculous size of the blast.

Wolk fight with the mecha was fine. I liked a lot papa Zaffy going ham on one to expose the core.

In the end Iris wakes Yuri FROM the Eternal Crystal[6], Chrono gets a drop on her, but then gets to have crystals rip out of him so that Iris can use his ad his team's life force/blood to make her own body...Even after it all, Chrono is just "heavily injured". He looked FUCKING DEAD in that scene.
The rest of the crew minus Nanoha and Amita also get trashed by beng IMPALED on their own lifeforce/blood crystals, unlike those two since they have Formula Suits. And after Nanoha blasts Iris to save everyone the movie ends. Right as the fight with Iris starts.

So yeah. A fine movie. It didn't knowck my socks off. I'm just not a fan of Force recycled bits. Also I don't like what they did with Kyrie's character. All of her playful assholishness which made her FUN is GONE in this one. They try to have her work Fate over by appealing to let her go, but it doesn't work as GoD version for me. Also Iris keeps stealing Kyrie's GoD lines, god damn it.

Yeah, they reuse a bunch of lines from GoD which is to be expected, but not some of the better moments, because the movie just doesn't have the time for that. The entire incident seems that it will end in couple of days.


[1] - By metal I mean normal physical objects and weapons. Like if someone asked what would happen if someone opened fire from an assault rifle at a typical Sailling Force Mage, I would say nothing would happen. Even automatic BrJ defenses are good enough to stop that. But I admit this is HIGHLY subjective. It's just so you know where I'm coming from.
[2] But that's not to say that I want things to be more MYSTICAL. I'm totally fine with magic being used technologically. And I'm fine pretty much if it's used in any form that makes sense. You want big mech looking suits that get summoned around the mage? Well BrJ is kinda that but that's okay. Computers using magic to power themselves and think? Also fine.
[3] Unlike in series proper where Reinforce dies WITH the BoNS and the tomes Hayate and Rein use had to be recreated from the bits and pieces Reinforce left with Hayate herself.
[4] Transformations: At first I was willing to give the movie credit for giving us a transformation sequences that WEREN'T creepy. Nanoha's one wasn't, mostly...but then Fate's one happened, which I should have expected[5], with full view of her barbie doll anatomy naked chest... At least Kyrie's one contained a squint and you might think adult body...
[5] Fate is generally used for two things. Testarossa angst/emotions segment, and FANSERVICE.
[6] Eternal Crystal Examia in game was the thing POWERING Unbreakable Darkness/Yuri. It was part of her, her power source, and the source of RIDICULOUS power Will of the BoD and the defence system had while they had access to it. Which neatly explained how Defense System!Reinforce could tank point blank busters but later be defeated rather easily once Hayate pulled the plug on it's access to everything.

[Serovectra]

[4] Transformations: At first I was willing to give the movie credit for giving us a transformation sequences that WEREN'T creepy. Nanoha's one wasn't, mostly...but then Fate's one happened, which I should have expected[5], with full view of her barbie doll anatomy naked chest... At least Kyrie's one contained a squint and you might think adult body...

Uh, that has been a staple in all three movies. In the 2nd a's movie Nanoha has a front and center nipple focused henshin scene. Even the original series had it to some extent, albeit it gets hampered by a lower budget. Was there some other fanservice I overlooked? It sounds grossly exaggerated.

[Hiss13]

Originally Posted by 4th Dimension

Also I don't like what they did with Kyrie's character. All of her playful assholishness which made her FUN is GONE in this one.

This was honestly my biggest gripe with the movie. Where's my playful, flirty, trollish Kyrie?

That and Nanoha's transformation sequence being done at the beginning rather than it being placed at the end before she saved everyone's collective asses. Would have fit more thematically in line with the nature of transformation sequences that way.

[lyrical dark mage]

Originally Posted by Hiss13

This was honestly my biggest gripe with the movie. Where's my playful, flirty, trollish Kyrie?

That and Nanoha's transformation sequence being done at the beginning rather than it being placed at the end before she saved everyone's collective asses. Would have fit more thematically in line with the nature of transformation sequences that way.

My guess is they wanted to do the transformation scenes as fast as possible, another thing is the transformations were brief compared to the other movies which I really liked.

[4th Dimension]

Originally Posted by Serovectra

Uh, that has been a staple in all three movies. In the 2nd a's movie Nanoha has a front and center nipple focused henshin scene. Even the original series had it to some extent, albeit it gets hampered by a lower budget. Was there some other fanservice I overlooked? It sounds grossly exaggerated.

Oh I'm aware that it was present even back then, probably the worst was TOS that had part of it have a lingering shot of her neither regions.

But they have been becoming rarer and rarer as the franchise went on and shook it's Just Another Magical Girl roots...
Then Vivid happened.

And since then fanservice has been the order of the day.

As a comparison:

Nanoha's one felt less lingering on the nudity aspect, where Fate's...well...

But that might be just me.

[Serovectra]

Originally Posted by 4th Dimension

Oh I'm aware that it was present even back then, probably the worst was TOS that had part of it have a lingering shot of her neither regions.

But they have been becoming rarer and rarer as the franchise went on and shook it's Just Another Magical Girl roots...
Then Vivid happened.

And since then fanservice has been the order of the day.

As a comparison:

Nanoha's one felt less lingering on the nudity aspect, where Fate's...well...

But that might be just me.

It was a one second scene. They both had it. They showed the nipples in the A's movie. Both henshins are definitely less risque than a's movie had them. As well as shorter. I'm hesitant to even call those henshins fan service.