2010-11-06, 12:38 | Link #18481 | |
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By the way, it's not out of character for Shannon and Kanon to appear together. They do so all the time. Just not around Battler. Will isn't Battler, nor is Will a first-person narrator. Why should I suddenly assume this third-person perspective is reliable for no reason when a first-person perspective wasn't reliable, also for no reason? And when we know third-person narration has been unreliable previously? Oh, and I don't recall Bern controlling Shannon. Shannon didn't name Bern as the person controlling her. I'm calling that one out too. There ain't a damn bit of proof. Not a damn thing. As for "no sign of anything supernatural," that's so blatantly contradicted as to not merit consideration. These supposed "explanations" do not work. Shenanigans. Shenanigans, I say! It's a damn fraud at best and the worst writing imaginable at worst.
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2010-11-06, 14:25 | Link #18487 | ||
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Of course Will has a perspective. He has eyes, doesn't he? Is there any evidence that his eyes can see outright lies, besides standard meta-world elements? Is there any proof that we can't trust our perspective of how we see Will? So forget what we the player can see. Everything Will sees on the gameboard side of Bern's world (that is to say, minus the few rules Bern used to facilitate the 'game') is possible, except for the memories and behaviors of the characters. Remember that all flashbacks are a story being told Will, so we have to rely on the character's word instead of Will's own eyes. Their memories are conflicted because Bernkastel has merged the two worlds together (which is the whole point of the first half). Their behaviors are controlled at times, but each time, we are told that Bern was probably the one "moving the pieces". Quote:
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2010-11-06, 14:31 | Link #18488 | ||
The True Culprit
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2010-11-06, 14:39 | Link #18489 | ||
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Also, remember the reason for falsehoods being contained in Umineko. It's always because someone's perspective is mistaken or lying. For the first time, in EP7, we see a meta-character who isn't seeing the game through someone else's perspective, but through his own. So, while the Game Master could introduce falsehoods that match the mistakes or lies told by a normal observer, they can't do it when Will is playing the part of detective directly. In other words, Will can't lie to us, and his viewpoint can't lie to him. Quote:
Remember, Renall isn't saying that my explanation's the wrong one, he's saying that it's self-contradictory. A lack of red text supporting every aspect of my argument doesn't make it self-contradictory.
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2010-11-06, 14:53 | Link #18491 | |
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Does that not bother you?
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2010-11-06, 15:08 | Link #18492 | |
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a. Run out of vodka b. Pass out c. ????
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2010-11-06, 15:10 | Link #18493 |
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I wouldn't expect a big show. If I'm dissatisfied with ep8 I'll probably write a scathing review in the ep8 thread about how badly the series tanked and then skedaddle, as there'd be nothing left for me to bother with.
I mean don't get me wrong, it'd be a mean review. But it'd just be my opinion.
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2010-11-06, 15:19 | Link #18494 | ||||
The True Culprit
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Moreover, Will does magic and shit. His viewpoint isn't worth jack squat, even if he does talk directly to the pieces. The fact that the gameboard isn't any sort of actual "world" is basically a flag saying "all bets are off." Quote:
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BY THE WAY, I'd just like to point out that Bern explicitly said that she didn't give Will the Detective Authority, but the Theatregoer's Authority. We can't really expect Will to follow the same rules as Battler or Erika, whatever form that might take.
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2010-11-06, 16:20 | Link #18495 | |
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However, in EP7, we have a completely different game. Will seems to be both the piece-detective and the meta-player at once, thanks to the merged world Bern created. As the detective, I think we can assume that he won't lie in his testimony. Since piece-Battler doesn't seem to be around in this world, I think we can also assume that we've left the pattern of "what Battler sees or hears is the truth, anything else might be lies", because that would mean everything is a lie and there's no point reading the game at all (and more importantly, no point for Bern to make the game). So, there is a good argument for saying that whatever Will sees is the truth, except for the additional rules Bern added and the fact that two worlds are blended together. And again, I'm not saying this as a proof of my theory. I'm just proposing a theory that has no contradictions that I can see, and that seems to be supported by quite a lot of evidence.
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2010-11-06, 16:26 | Link #18496 |
The True Culprit
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But you're using one unproven statement to support another; Besides, the thing about Battler giving his testimony thing becomes problematic because in EP5, Battler isn't guaranteed to speak the truth, and in EP6, he's the one spinning lies. So...what makes EP7 different? The lack of Battler? Because that's more or less how EP5 went, and that game's Detective dropped Red Truths and used what was basically magic and talked to meta-beings on the gameboard.
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2010-11-06, 16:35 | Link #18497 |
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There is a contradiction. You have used exactly opposite logic in the past to dismiss a situation of this exact degree of ambiguity. You have now turned about and applied to this similar situation. Anything else you have said is nothing more than your opinion, most of it based on personal supposition drawn from nothing I can fathom.
That is a textbook contradiction, unless you have actually changed your mind about the previous situation. Am I to take that from your shift in position?
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2010-11-06, 16:49 | Link #18498 | |
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2010-11-06, 16:59 | Link #18499 | |
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Spoiler for size:
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Of course, there'd have to be a reason for why this should be the case, and I only just figured it out while re-reading EP7. Take this phrase that's used a million times: "how many people does it take to create a world?" We now know:
You probably see where I'm going with this:
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2010-11-06, 17:07 | Link #18500 | ||||
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I also fundamentally disagree with the circuitous knowledge used to twist ep5 and squeeze blood from that stone where none is to be had. It's silly, as silly as doubting the veracity of Will's observations, but you can't do one and then not do the other, or vice-versa. And you are doing that. I really don't know what else to say. You can't discuss things with a person who cherry-picks when they will hold to their premises. I presume you don't mean to do that, but that is exactly what you have done.
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