(L) Kaifuku Jutsushi no Yarinaoshi (Redo of Healer)

[Rasty]

Originally Posted by stray

The thing is... everything he does is calculated and premeditated, so he very much IS sane. The trauma didn't "break" him as much as distort his values, and even if what he's doing in the name of revenge is twisted the setup is clearly there for redemption and for him to be the eventual "hero" in whatever isekai-ish world this is.

I still find it relatively entertaining (I kind of have a thing for edge) but its also pretty shallow. I had similar complaints with the original Heaven's Feel route before the censored version and movie smoothed out the edge a bit.

^ I seriously fear going into spoiler territory (as my impression of the MC might be built upon things further in), so I will be concise as much as I can and leave the rest for later. He is not the "drolling, laughing, and killing everything around" type of insane, but more like he lost certain sensitivities, common sense, and care for lots of things. So currently he only cares for enjoying his revenge. And I mean it as only as his values are insane from any perspective. He is willingly letting himself get tortured, raped, drugged, etc., just to reach his goals (he could at least try to avoid it, even though it would make him wanted for life and likely to never get his revenge).

As for being shallow, wholeheartedly agree, it has always been so from the WN.

I wonder if at this pace Nidome no Yuusha will get an adaptation too. It's in a sense even more extreme but doesn't go into the sexual genres and the MC there is sane. It even has a better story (at least in my opinion).

[BWTraveller]

Sanity is not directly linked to intelligence or tactical capability. A person can be sane and an idiot, and a person can be completely mad and still intelligent, devious, conniving, even patient. I guess it depends on what psychological disorders you feel qualify as "insane". But it doesn't change the fact that his psyche is broken (though clearly not his brain as a whole).

[stray]

Originally Posted by Rasty

^ I seriously fear going into spoiler territory (as my impression of the MC might be built upon things further in), so I will be concise as much as I can and leave the rest for later. He is not the "drolling, laughing, and killing everything around" type of insane, but more like he lost certain sensitivities, common sense, and care for lots of things.

From what I read of the manga he seems more tsundere than irredeemable. Although I guess a sadist (towards his own girls) wouldn't necessarily make for a great harem lead, either.

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Sanity is not directly linked to intelligence or tactical capability.

Except it kind of is as legal defense. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insanity_defense

Trauma I'll give you, but he knows what he's doing and he can hold back, considering he didn't disembowel Flare or tear out her uterus or something with the hot poker. It would be a lot more interesting if he actually was insane, though.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by stray

Trauma I'll give you, but he knows what he's doing and he can hold back, considering he didn't disembowel Flare or tear out her uterus or something with the hot poker. It would be a lot more interesting if he actually was insane, though.

That's a different matter. I don't think any of us were talking in legal terms, much less in terms of factors that could assuage his guilt. That doesn't mean that a person isn't insane if they're able to recognize right from wrong or think things through, just that they can't claim inculpability due to insanity. For example, say perhaps you have a man who's mildly to moderately mentally retarded, and he commits an act like rape. You may end up with the court dealing directly with the question of whether he is legally mentally disabled and unable to recognize what he'd done or not. Even if they judge him able to understand the significance of his actions and thus culpable for his crime, this doesn't mean that they're judging him to not have a disability. For that matter, look at sociopaths and psychopaths. These are clinical psychiatric/psychological conditions, definitively insane, but you'd rarely if ever find anyone deemed inculpable because of their psychopathy, because this form of insanity doesn't render them unable to appreciate that their actions are contradictory to the law. Seriously, there's a lot in between what you describe and completely sane.

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

That's a different matter. I don't think any of us were talking in legal terms, much less in terms of factors that could assuage his guilt. That doesn't mean that a person isn't insane if they're able to recognize right from wrong or think things through, just that they can't claim inculpability due to insanity. For example, say perhaps you have a man who's mildly to moderately mentally retarded, and he commits an act like rape. You may end up with the court dealing directly with the question of whether he is legally mentally disabled and unable to recognize what he'd done or not. Even if they judge him able to understand the significance of his actions and thus culpable for his crime, this doesn't mean that they're judging him to not have a disability. For that matter, look at sociopaths and psychopaths. These are clinical psychiatric/psychological conditions, definitively insane, but you'd rarely if ever find anyone deemed inculpable because of their psychopathy, because this form of insanity doesn't render them unable to appreciate that their actions are contradictory to the law. Seriously, there's a lot in between what you describe and completely sane.

yeah being insane don't means being idiot you have in the real life many exemple of "insane peoples" specially in psychopaths, which where really smart enough to fool anyone about then being "sane and good" but being able to do really nasty and crazy stuffs, in the same way you have many "sane peoples but pretty dumb, sanity don't equality to "being smarth or idiot, what is matter is how much obssessed he is over his "revenge" or the object of his insanity which in his case is his revenge, while he can do stupid things like let himself suffer all over again everything, it was all calculated already and for the sake of revenge and because he know which he he tried to "change the stuffs in the wrong time" he could had screwed, like if him had not accept the princess offer to go to the castle with her, she could just had snaped and ordered the army to "destroy the village if the hero" don't go with her and others crap stuffs, like just taking anyway he accepting or no by force, because "she can", remember we are talking about a sadic princess which will do whatever is needed to "protect the kingdom" even it means force the mc go with her or just burn down the village to make him go, after the reset the mc don't had many options than just accept his fate and go but just making sure which he will be able to start his revenge when the chances come.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Rasty

Hahaha, you should read the WN then. Though I felt like this particular scene was seriously overdone there, so I am glad the anime milded it down a lot.

But I'm not here for the WN. I'm here coz people can't stop making such fuss over the anime (especially episode 2), not the WN.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by gecd

dude, what's the point of erased her memories
If he wants sweet revenge would it be more makes sense to let her remembers the humiliation?

Because that was what she did to him. She fed him drugs which took over his sense of self. It destroyed who he was until the drug resistance kicked in. So he “healed” her mind erasing her sense of self and destroying who she was as well.

He is probably looking forward to the day that she too takes back her own mind and is made aware of all that she had done without her memories. It will either destroy her dignity better than consciously being raped over and over or destroy her completely as she could and probably will choose to remain in that life by destroying her own original self.

[BWTraveller]

I'd heard some speculation in some places that Flare really acted to some extent out of self-hatred and frustration, that she in some ways wanted to be different but had to do some things and acted out as a result of others. If this is true, given how happy she seems to be without those memories, I kind of hope that when she does remember she wishes she could forget again. Would be interesting to see a fight between two sides, between mortification at what she'd been made to do in blissful ignorance, and a desperate desire to regain the happiness she'd never been allowed in her real life, even if that happiness comes at a price. Just seems like an interesting ending scenario.

[stray]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

That's a different matter. I don't think any of us were talking in legal terms, much less in terms of factors that could assuage his guilt.

Maybe not you personally but I think in general calling him "insane" or "broken" implies he deserves a pass.

For example, say perhaps you have a man who's mildly to moderately mentally retarded, and he commits an act like rape. You may end up with the court dealing directly with the question of whether he is legally mentally disabled and unable to recognize what he'd done or not.

Except... no, because intellectual disability and insanity are completely separate things.

For that matter, look at sociopaths and psychopaths. These are clinical psychiatric/psychological conditions, definitively insane, but you'd rarely if ever find anyone deemed inculpable because of their psychopathy, because this form of insanity doesn't render them unable to appreciate that their actions are contradictory to the law.

Psychopathy denotes a lack of empathy, not a lack of cognitive or decision making ability.

End of the day I just see him as edgy more than legitimately twisted or broken. It is what it is.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by stray

Maybe not you personally but I think in general calling him "insane" or "broken" implies he deserves a pass.Except... no, because intellectual disability and insanity are completely separate things.Psychopathy denotes a lack of empathy, not a lack of cognitive or decision making ability.

End of the day I just see him as edgy more than legitimately twisted or broken. It is what it is.

Actually no, in terms of the legal matters you described mental disability and insanity are very similar and more than comparable. In both cases what the courts are judging is whether or not the person has the mental capacity to recognize the morality and/or legality of his actions. If you actually looked into it, while plenty of people have been diagnosed with various mental conditions that can qualify as insanity, it is very rare for a person to plead not guilty by reason of mental disorder (the common wording), largely because it's really hard to prove that a person is sufficiently unable to discern right from wrong, or legal from illegal.

And yes, sociopathy is considered a form of disorder, in other words, a form of insanity. Moreover, most serial killers could easily be called insane, as many of them have serious psychoses that give them impulsive drives to do what they do, but they're still almost never found not guilty by reason of insanity as, while they are clinically insane, their insanity is not so severe that they were unable to appreciate that they were doing something illegal. A person doesn't have to be a wild beast who has no reasoning left and just rips those he hates apart, as what you suggested he'd do if insane earlier, to be insane. As I said, it's a broad range from a sane person with a grudge to the rabid monster you seem to view as the only type that can be defined as "insane".

On a different note, honestly, I'm kind of surprised that not one person to this point has asked how people would react if the genders were reversed.

[stray]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Actually no, in terms of the legal matters you described mental disability and insanity are very similar and more than comparable.

The threshold for intellectual disability is 70 IQ and tends to get ignored more than it should in the US justice system anyway. In the case of someone mentally retarded though its more of an issue of competence to be put on trial... basically if they can even comprehend what a trial is or what it means. Competency can apply to other mental illnesses as well, but competence is not even remotely similar to an insanity plea, and you're comparing apples to oranges.

On a different note, honestly, I'm kind of surprised that not one person to this point has asked how people would react if the genders were reversed.

I mean its tough to be any edgier than Lucy. If you want the edgiest yandere ever though -- its probably Ijousha no Ai that you're looking for. Although Velvet Crowe from Tales of Berseria was a great feMC in a more traditional revenge story.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by stray

The threshold for intellectual disability is 70 IQ and tends to get ignored more than it should in the US justice system anyway. In the case of someone mentally retarded though its more of an issue of competence to be put on trial... basically if they can even comprehend what a trial is or what it means. Competency can apply to other mental illnesses as well, but competence is not even remotely similar to an insanity plea, and you're comparing apples to oranges.

Actually I'm not. There's a reason they tend to use terms like "not guilty by reason of mental defect" or other generic terms: because the intent is to cover any manner of mental problem that can result in a lack of understanding of right and wrong or legal and illegal, or a sufficient lack of control that they can't be held responsible. This includes both mental insanity resulting in an inability to discern the meaning of one's actions and mental disability sufficient to result in one not understanding that one's actions are illegal or immoral. Often people in the latter category won't even make it that far due to competency, but it is indeed possible for their capacity to understand their actions to come into question just as much as their capacity to stand trial. So no, I'm not comparing apples to oranges, you're looking at apples and calling them oranges.

I mean its tough to be any edgier than Lucy. If you want the edgiest yandere ever though -- its probably Ijousha no Ai that you're looking for. Although Velvet Crowe from Tales of Berseria was a great feMC in a more traditional revenge story.

Are those stories of people seeking revenge on people who'd harmed them? A few of Lucy's victims were awful people who'd directly harmed her or her loved ones (such as those orphans), but overall she just killed whoever she wanted (including a random girl walking down the same street as her). I was just curious if a story where a man had abused a girl, drugged her, enslaved her, had her raped over and over for months, and eventually was captured by the girl, violated and brainwashed into happy servitude, people would have the same opinions on the different characters and their actions. I know it's low-hanging fruit, but I couldn't help but wonder.

[stray]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Actually I'm not. There's a reason they tend to use terms like "not guilty by reason of mental defect" or other generic terms: because the intent is to cover any manner of mental problem that can result in a lack of understanding of right and wrong or legal and illegal, or a sufficient lack of control that they can't be held responsible.

Dude... something like schizophrenia is treatable; intellectual disabilities are not. If someone with a 70 IQ is competent they're going to be tried and sentenced normally unless there's some other mental issue there. Which is a problem in and of itself... I was literally just reading about issues with intellectually disabled fringe cases on death row a week or so ago. But that's getting way off topic.

My point stands. I'll give you that he was traumatized, but not insane or something. Just edgy.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by stray

Dude... something like schizophrenia is treatable; intellectual disabilities are not. If someone with a 70 IQ is competent they're going to be tried and sentenced normally unless there's some other mental issue there. Which is a problem in and of itself... I was literally just reading about issues with intellectually disabled fringe cases on death row a week or so ago. But that's getting way off topic.

My point stands. I'll give you that he was traumatized, but not insane or something. Just edgy.

Moreover, 70 is right in the range of learning disabilities, so he isn't dumb at all.
And especially with IQ tests, that learning ability only has to be in math and you'll probably fail horribly, given how they usually contain vast amounts of it.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by stray

Dude... something like schizophrenia is treatable; intellectual disabilities are not. If someone with a 70 IQ is competent they're going to be tried and sentenced normally unless there's some other mental issue there. Which is a problem in and of itself... I was literally just reading about issues with intellectually disabled fringe cases on death row a week or so ago. But that's getting way off topic.

My point stands. I'll give you that he was traumatized, but not insane or something. Just edgy.

Actually, if they're deemed unable to judge right from wrong, there's definitely the chance of them being sent to some manner of facility. But anyway, I only included the mentally disabled as an example, should have just stuck to things like serial killers, most of whom are clearly clinically insane but also are not so far gone that the law considers them unable to understand the morality or legality of their actions.

My point is that your definition of "insane" is excessively narrow, adamantly excluding anything but the most extreme cases. There's a reason that defenses of mental defect are rarely used: you can't just prove that a person is insane. You have to prove that the person has absolutely no control over their own actions (or at least had no control at the time) or that they have broken so far from reality that they can't understand that they've done something wrong/illegal. That is a very high hurdle to pass, far above the task of proving insanity. Just because he's able to plan things out does not mean he's sane, it just means that he's not suffering from the sort of insanity that would destroy his logical faculties or his ability to wait and plan.

Still, if you absolutely insist that "insane" is only applicable to those cases who've become no more than animals, unable to reason or wait or hold their urges down to any extent, then sure I'll agree, he's definitely not insane. But he's also clearly not right in the head. That doesn't mean he's in any way excused from his actions, since frankly it's the very fact that he knows his actions are cruel and vicious that he's doing them. It just means he's all the more dangerous, and that the torments have taken that much out of him. He's not the man he was back in the village, he's a monster, and he's determined to give what he personally feels to be karmic retribution to those that "made" him what he is today.

[stray]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

But anyway, I only included the mentally disabled as an example, should have just stuck to things like serial killers, most of whom are clearly clinically insane but also are not so far gone that the law considers them unable to understand the morality or legality of their actions.

Keyaru doesn't have a "Dark Passenger" or something like that either.

My point is that your definition of "insane" is excessively narrow, adamantly excluding anything but the most extreme cases.

Because its an issue of guilt and innocence.

I don't really care to look at this in real world terms because in the context of the story he's still less "insane" than Flare if he can treat Freyja as a beloved pet rather than entertaining his sadistic impulses. Again, its less that he's 'broken' and more that his morality has adapted to the dog eat (rape?) dog world he's in. And I still see the story setting him up for redemption in the long run.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by stray

Keyaru doesn't have a "Dark Passenger" or something like that either.Because its an issue of guilt and innocence.

I don't really care to look at this in real world terms because in the context of the story he's still less "insane" than Flare if he can treat Freyja as a beloved pet rather than entertaining his sadistic impulses. Again, its less that he's 'broken' and more that his morality has adapted to the dog eat (rape?) dog world he's in. And I still see the story setting him up for redemption in the long run.

OK, once again, being insane does not equate to being inculpable for one's crimes. Joker from Batman is a complete nutcase, but I'd never suggest letting any version of him escape responsibility for any of his crimes. Again, if you insist on defining "insane" as only those who aren't merely diagnosable but who can be proven far enough gone to have no responsibility for their own actions, then no, no one in this series is insane. But again, the difference between what you're saying and what I and I'm pretty sure anyone else that called him insane were saying is that we place the threshold on the diagnosis, not the escape from responsibility.

Once more, you're basically arguing semantics here, which is rather pointless. If you insist on the word only being used when a person can't be considered "guilty" of anything than I don't think I've heard people suggesting his insanity. But that doesn't change the fact that he's messed up. His obsession and rage and his expressions of glee at what he's managed to do tell me he's not just changed his morals, he's gotten lost in the darkness of his pain and hate.

That said, I do hope redemption is made possible. As I'd said before, I'd really like it if Flare and anyone else he brainwashes regain their memories but choose to continue living this life and abandoning their past, and that this helps him to heal as well.

[grecefar]

Lol well this anime did get a reaction, just look at this battlefield, how beautiful.

[stray]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

OK, once again, being insane does not equate to being inculpable for one's crimes. Joker from Batman is a complete nutcase, but I'd never suggest letting any version of him escape responsibility for any of his crimes.

Uh... protip but Joker is not the example you probably wanted here. When he's caught Joker goes to Arkham Asylum instead of prison specifically because he is 'insane'.

Once more, you're basically arguing semantics here, which is rather pointless.

I haven't actually budged from legal insanity. You're the one who wants me to sign off on your flexible definition here.

That said, I do hope redemption is made possible. As I'd said before, I'd really like it if Flare and anyone else he brainwashes regain their memories but choose to continue living this life and abandoning their past, and that this helps him to heal as well.

I'm not really a fan of that but I'd rather not elaborate right now.

[VDZ]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

TBH, that was kind of my point. I wasn't trying to defend Keyaru or anything, I just found it dumb that people were going to such lengths to insist that Flare as "less horrible". The entire point of the series is someone who became horrible going back to torture and destroy the people who hurt him in the past. Everyone's awful, so it's absurd to try and come up with reasons why a particular character is "not as bad" or "kind of innocent". I'm pretty sure that every person he's going to attack will be, if all acts are known, absolutely unredeemable monsters. Like Myne from Shield Hero, the sort where even if you can't enjoy watching someone torture them, you can't entirely hate that they're being tortured.

Again, not saying Flare is innocent, she is absolutely a terrible person. But implying that Flare's actions and intentions are significantly worse than Keyaru's would make Keyaru arguably justified in his actions so far. (Though I still think people are overlooking the fact that he just straight up murdered two people too much just because it didn't get as much story focus.) If Keyaru can be argued to be justified in his intentions and actions, he could reasonably be argued to not be evil. Someone who takes justified revenge against those who deserve it is not a villain but a hero, and so far Keyaru has not done anything other than taking revenge against those who wronged him. And some people do seem to be implying that Keyaru is not wrong in his actions. This is why it's important to acknowledge that Keyaru's revenge goes way beyond what is justified. If it doesn't, Keyaru is arguably a hero, or at worst not a villain.

Originally Posted by Estzero1

I stumbled upon this video, so I will leave this here. It's interesting to see different perspective.

Spoiler for :

YouTube

https://youtu.be/N-FJYRzgg_Q

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

This was interesting, thanks for sharing.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

But I'm not here for the WN. I'm here coz people can't stop making such fuss over the anime (especially episode 2), not the WN.

What Rasty was implying was that the iron rod does get used in the original WN. Apparently it was toned down in the LN, which is what the anime is based on.