2012-10-06, 01:31 | Link #203 |
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I think a spotted flower end is highly likely, mostly because Kousaka is severely underdeveloped. Maradame is the male character with the most development, followed by Hato and Sasahara. Kousaka is really a very minor character that we know little about.
There's really no indication given that Kousaka and Saki's relationship is anything but superficial. Saki keeps on complaining about how Kousaka really doesn't care that much for her. There's no evidence to the contrary, at all. If Kio wanted us to accept KousakaxSaki he would've given us at least 1 scene where Kousaka displays his affection for Saki, unprompted. Doesn't happen. He wants to break them up. |
2012-10-06, 04:14 | Link #204 | |
I disagree with you all.
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It's about self-esteem. He was basically asking "Am I just some creepy otaku who's completely and forever unable to attract a girl?", and she said no. Which actually lets him free to hope for a real relationship some day. |
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2012-10-06, 08:11 | Link #205 | ||
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Don't you think that if Kio, in fact, wanted to break them up, he would have done so before the previous chapter, so that the "fated" pairing of SakixMadarame that I continually hear would be something akin to the most beautiful relationship ever could have been established in chapter 80. Instead, Saki firmly rejects Madarame, and that definitely seems to be the end of it. I tend to doubt that Kousaka or Saki will be involved much anymore, and now Madarame can finally move on, and begin to form a proper and meaningful relationship with someone from his harem. Otherwise, what would the point of this chapter have been? Quote:
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2012-10-06, 13:05 | Link #206 | |||
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Thanks for responding to my comments. I'm happy that there is still viable Genshiken discussion going on.
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Basically, I'm saying Koi has been very careful to leave out anything that might give us the impression that Kousaka thinks of Saki as anything other than a long-term fuck buddy. It's a very one-sided relationship, and the reason why Koi set up their relationship that way is because Koi wants them to break up down the line. SakixKousaka has never been tested, has never been through a trial that didn't result is Saki laying down like a doormat. I'm eager to see how Kousaka would react to a true otaku beauty like Angela. Quote:
1. Genshiken turns into a fujoshi story with the new freshmen as the focus and talking about their problems until the end. 2. Genshiken will turn into a Mada harem story with Mada eventually paired off with one of the new girls. Does anyone really think Koi is going for number 1? That seems implausible to me. Genshiken would lose readers and end up a failure. Number 2 is really also unlikely because of the simple lack of foreshadowing. The only serious romantic interest we've seen for Mada are Hato and Angela. Hato won't work for obvious reasons, and Angela won't either for even more obvious reasons. There's really not much to talk about there in terms of MadaxGirl. Going too deeply into either of the two aforementioned scenarios will repulse fans. No. What Koi will bring us is a conclusion to the Hato/Freshmen arc and restart SakixMada. Saki will run into problems with Kousaka. He will find another girl, find a job that takes him away, something. But Saki will eventually realize that she doesn't mean anything to Kousaka and give him up. Genshiken will conclude with the core, the focus of the story. Main girl (Saki) and Main guy (Mada)'s story! It will NOT end on some random drama concerning the freshmen. There's just no way that would happen. Quote:
Drama, obviously. It was an entertaining chapter. |
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2012-10-06, 13:09 | Link #207 | |
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And yes, if anything, this chapter finally gave closure to the crush he had, so Kio can finally take him places. Including a boy's ass Kaoru above is simply blinded by the faith of his Shipping Sect to see the storytelling purpose of the chapter.
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2012-10-06, 13:14 | Link #208 | |
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Tell us what you *actually think Koi is going for and think about whether or not that actually make sense for Genshiken. |
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2012-10-06, 13:44 | Link #209 | |
I disagree with you all.
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2012-10-06, 13:46 | Link #210 | |
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If Kio want to keep him in the spotlight, he may find a mate. He may not. He may focus back on the current protagonists of the 2nd gen, the freshmen. But whatever Kio has in plan, this chapter meant to gave a long overdue closure to Madarame's crush on Saki. Why is that so hard for you to understand, it's so obvious, it could be lit up with a pink, ugly neon light. You seriously think that if Madarame doesn't end up with Saki, it makes no sense for Genshiken? You think this chapter is just for shits&giggles, and Kio has no plans to take Madarame places, now that he is more emotionally situated? Really? Dude, don't tell me you're not blinded by ship-worshipping. The entire chapter is about "moving on". Which apparently, in your own words, "makes no sense for Genshiken". PS: Btw, trap comments hidden in white and fontsize 1 is a joke. That too, should have been obvious. Hell I went through a legnthly effort to make that obvious as the blue sky. Apparently it still fails. Internets. Bah.
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Last edited by aohige; 2012-10-06 at 14:00. Reason: looks like I'm gonna have to really brighten up the post, to get it across. |
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2012-10-06, 14:04 | Link #212 |
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Precisely.
He's basically a representation, a walking symbol. The perfect otaku no one can be. It's both a running gag and a concept representation. In a way, Ohno started out as one as well. There's no character depth, because he doesn't need one. In a sense, he's not supposed to be a representation of a human being. He's more of an anti-thesis to the human characters... a neighbor Wilson.
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2012-10-06, 18:10 | Link #213 | |||||||
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These problems are portrayed as insignificant because they are in love with one another. They don't have to be shown as a couple that is all over each other for that to remain the case. Basically, Saki, although she certainly gets annoyed at times, is ultimately accepting of the flaws she perceives in him, or else she would have left him a long time ago. They have their problems, of course, but they've all been shown as ultimately insignificant. Plus, you're really focusing on the negative traits of their relationship without seeing the positive ones. Simply put, it was a great relationship in early Genshiken, and I wouldn't want to see it unnecessarily tossed aside just to satisfy the ever-hopeful Madarame x Saki shippers. Honestly, I see a Kousaka x Saki marriage happening towards the end of the story. It would be an excellent way to conclude the written portion of their relationship. Quote:
What about Saki not working for obvious reasons? You consistently fail to mention her perspective in this situation, and, the simple fact is that she has no romantic feelings for him. If there was even a possibility of those two getting together, shouldn't Saki, over the previous 80 chapters, have shown the slightest bit of attraction towards him. But, through it all, she hasn't, even though she knew perfectly well of his feelings for her. For Madarame, it would obviously be great if she would miraculously stop loving Kousaka to eventually fall for him, but that's never going to happen, and it shouldn't if Kio wants to keep this story realistic and believable. Quote:
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For all the instances of foreshadowing you've detailed, this is the largest one by a mile, yet you dismiss it as ultimately irrelevant. This chapter not only foreshadows him finally moving on for good, but states it in such a straightforward fashion, it's really rather ridiculous to not expect this to leave a permanent impression on the direction this will take for the remainder of the story. Above all though, Madarame, despite how great of a character he is, doesn't deserve to have the unrequited love for his best friend's girlfriend rewarded, and the latest chapter illustrates that point thoroughly. A Saki x Madarame ending, aside from coming out of nowhere, would also retroactively ruin one of the first meaningful chapters of Nidaime and turn it into something completely meaningless, since it would effectively undercut Madarame's extremely significant choice to finally move on. Quote:
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2012-10-06, 23:30 | Link #214 | |
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Kousaka could have become a really interesting character, I think.
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2012-10-07, 05:29 | Link #215 | |
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Word of advice, don't absolutely rule out any outcome. I think Mada X Saki is still a good possibility, like Kaoru I also believe that a lot of what Kio has written could be considered legitimate foreshadowing. Do I think that its the only or even most likely possibility? No. The previous chapter may very well have been the end of it. Chapter 80 left things ambiguous and none of us should pretend like it didn't. Like I said, don't rule anything out. Never say "so and so will/will never happen because of this or that piece of evidence. And if you believe otherwise you're only fooling yourself." I've seen it before. You never know what the author is going to do for sure and you may end up eating your words later. Last edited by Gus3; 2012-10-07 at 05:55. |
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2012-10-07, 07:10 | Link #216 | |||||||||
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That's what I'm saying, your interpretation is contrary to the story that's been given by Koi. Quote:
Maybe 1 or 2 panels is sufficient to show that Kousaka cares about Saki. Koi doesn't do this. At this point you have to either admit that Koi is doing it purposefully, he's setting up the relationship as bad, incompatible. It's speculation to say that this is foreshadowing a breakup, but it should be indisputable that Koi wants us to see that they have a weak relationship. Quote:
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If you look at Koi's writing, you'll see that he doesn't really do romantic buildup. Check out OhnoxTanaka, SakixKousaka, SasaxOugie. There has never been any overt romance from 2 parties before the concluding scenes. Koi doesn't write the typical shounenshit where 2 characters stare at each other's backs pining away for 10 chapters. Just doesn't happen. What he does do is, show the two characters interacting in a positive, friendly, and productive way. Then he cinches it in a confession (to the reader, not necessarily to the other party). This is what happened to Sasahara and Kousaka. Ohno and Tanaka happened entirely off-screen. If you look at what's been happening, you'll see that that pattern is the same for SakixMada. The only other potentiality here is for HatoxMada, which would probably be unacceptable for Genshiken (though on some level I would welcome that lol). Lastly, you used a term that I don't think should be applied to Genshiken. "Fall for him." You're using an overly romanticized ideal of love in a series that has never been about that nor ever will be about that. OhnoxTanaka and SasaxOugie are both about discovering compatibility and then thinking, hmm, maybe I should get a girlfriend? Along the same lines, nobody would call Kousaka's "Do you want to kiss?" "fall for her." That would be risible. Fact of the matter is, if Kousaka and Saki breaks up for whatever reason, she's going to need comfort and a new boyfriend. Koi has consistently wrote friends who understand each other becoming lovers. That is his forte, that is what Genshiken has largely been about, and that is why SakixMada is likely if Saki breaks up with Kousaka. Quote:
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You realize that Mada gaining confidence and moving on doesn't really contradict a spotted flower end right? It's a common trope in drama where one party gets rejected, moves on, and then they get back together again for whatever reason. Final Edit: To all of you people calling me a shipper. Nah bros! I'm not a shipper. I don't *want MadaxSaki. I wasn't really all that interested in this pairing until I read spotted flower anyway. I'm just calling it as I see it, with the hope of staving off any calls of "bad writing" when MadaxSaki does happen by explaining why this conclusion is rather obvious. Last edited by KaoruAoiShiho; 2012-10-07 at 07:43. |
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2012-10-07, 07:50 | Link #217 | |||
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Uh, you're the one that started the whole "you're not making any sense, explain it in a matter that's not bullshit reply." So I returned the favor and gave one. Too bad you didn't like the answer. Carry on with the Pot & Kettle if you wish. Quote:
(emphasis on "yet") You freaking went as far as calling out everything else as "doens't make sense for Genshiken 2". You're telling me to get off my high horse, while you're calling out orders from a ten feet tall elephant! Quote:
Looking back at the start of the argument, you didn't start out that way... I think you got caught in a debate you can't back down from, and escalated it towards an absolute position. I feel sorry that you were put in that position, but it's probably best if you started to look at your conviction from a different angle now.
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Last edited by aohige; 2012-10-07 at 08:14. |
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2012-10-07, 08:01 | Link #218 | |||
I disagree with you all.
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2012-10-07, 08:19 | Link #219 | |
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Hato had all the characteristics of being a symbol, full of archetype characteristics and simply provide "I'm a background archetype that acts and talks in certain manner" character. Instead, he chose to flesh out the character in first person perspective, and develop him. I think he has the luxury to do so now, since he can put the first-gen cast in that backdrop character spot (such as Sasahara), instead of providing one from the current set.
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2012-10-07, 08:29 | Link #220 | ||||
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@aohige I think it's pretty clear that what I'm writing is just speculation and interpretation on my part. There are commonalities with certain posters and differences with others. But I'm not Koi nor a mind-reader nor someone who has any superior insight or knowledge. I'm just explaining my analysis. I did not think a disclaimer was necessary. Last edited by KaoruAoiShiho; 2012-10-07 at 08:51. |
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